Gnosticmind

No change in Jerusalem, yet

gnosticmind’s comment 02 Jul 09, 8:52am

To all those Israeli Zionists , I should also add, that Einstein, Hannah Arendt and Freud were passionately opposed to Zionist Revisionists, and were , at different times of their lives, either very wary of the founding of Israel — or downright against its existence.

Do a google search — it’s all there.

No change in Jerusalem, yet

gnosticmind’s comment 02 Jul 09, 8:11am

To those who defend Zionism , I will say you are on very shaky ground. You have lost the battle. It has long been documented by exemplary Jewish historians — that Zionism is in part, rooted in hard right nationalism, and yes — even fascism.

Here’s a great article on American Jews rejecting Zionism as a dangerous,anachronistic movement rooted in what were once common prejudices of the 19Th and 20Th Century — that most of us nowadays just call nationalism,ethnic triumphalism, racism…. or just plain old fascism.

Read on, from The American Council for Judaism — http://www.acjna.org/acjna/articles_detail.aspx?id=68

Why does Israel seem to think it can operate within entirely different historical narratives and on different scales of moral judgement from the rest of the world, when checked against its colonial , imperialist , nationalist phases? Is Israel outside the rest of the world’s historical flow somehow, and seen via different prisms?

If so, ( as it does seem to me to be so ) — why ?

Sorry, it doesn’t add up anymore.

No change in Jerusalem, yet

gnosticmind’s comment 02 Jul 09, 6:04am

These threads go round and round, to no avail, same old arguments, same old people shouting “Anti Semite!” , same old people shouting “NO, I am anti Zionist/anti Israel” same old people shouting “Nazi” and same old people shouting “terrorists in Gaza” bla bla bla……

It gets us no where — the comments you read on the entire thread — were on the VERY FIRST Israel thread CIF posted.

Many of us feel Israel is a colonial state built on someone else’s land.

Many of us feel Israel is, and always has been up to no good, since 1948.

A vast number of us would love to see Israel face what they have done, and address the injustices they have engendered on others land.

Many of us feel if we say that, however — we’ll be moderated and censored. It always happens if we voice our point of view . Free speech is “selective” — when it is about Israel that is, don’t forget. You can’t really say what you believe — you’ll be moderated.

But Israel doesn’t care. And America, their banker, doesn’t care. And the European leaders, who go along with everything Israel says and does, don’t care.

And the angrier you get at what many see as the blatant injustice of Israel, the more they’ll call you an “Anti Semite” .

What’s the point?

See you tomorow, next week, next month, next year, same thread, same cyclical arguments.

Aipac’s hidden persuaders

gnosticmind’s comment 15 May 09, 4:18pm (about 9 hours ago)

More hot air about Israel.

These threads go round and round, to no avail, same old arguments, same old people shouting “Anti Semite!” , same old people shouting “NO, I am anti Zionist/anti Israel” same old people shouting “Nazi” and same old people shouting “terrorists in Gaza” bla bla bla……

It gets us no where – the comments you read on the entire thread — were on the VERY FIRST Israel thread CIF posted.

Everyone knows Israel is a colonial state built on someone else’s land.

Everyone knows Israel is, and always has been up to no good.

A vast number of us would love to see Israel face what evil they have done.

But Israel doesn’t care. And America, their banker, doesn’t care. And the European leaders, their puppy dogs, don’t care.

Ans the angrier you get at the blatant injustice of Israel, the more they’ll call you an “Anti Semite” .

What’s the f**** point?

See you tomorow, next week, next month, next year, same thread, same b*****t.

The Vatican must search its soul over Jews

gnosticmind’s comment 13 May 09, 4:42pm

The author writes: “Early on in his pontificate he visited the Rome synagogue and proclaimed the Jews to be the elder siblings of his flock. …..But when it came to doctrine and the culpability of the church for modern anti-semitism, his own conservatism and the reactionaries within the curia made it impossible to take the steps that Jews longed for.”

But the entire centre of all the dialogue is still cloaked in silly mythology and silly religious triumphalism, that no one in their right mind would care about : Why would any intelligent person care if a ridiculous, camp man in a kitsch scarlet cape, red patent leather penny loafers and coiffed hair, told the world he acknowldged that “the Jews were the big brother of his flock?”

I mean, who gives a s**t, really– Do you? If so, why?

Secondly, you tell us Jews “longed for him to admit the churches culpability?” Really? None of the jews I know could care less about the silly man with his vaudville boffant hair do and satin capes. These catholic elites are absurd — who cares what they think about anything?

In fact — they are good company for those appaling Israeli leaders — a bunch of vampires no one could take seriously as being men of their word.

A time of reckoning for the pope

gnosticmind’s comment 10 May 09, 4:23pm

Oh here we go AGAIN, more from the Israel apologists –

Letting us know how “anti Semitic” those Catholics have ( apparently ) behaved is all very well — but whilst we are at it, why don’t we have a look at what unpleasant things Orthodox Judaism has to say about the Christians and Muslims in the traditional Jewish texts?

In fact, highly regarded Jewish academic and Holocaust survivor Israel Shahak did a very close study of the vicious prejudice,nationalism and racism inherent in specific Jewish texts from the likes of Maimonides, Halakha texts etc.

Why not have a read?

It isn’t pleasant — http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/shahak.html

The thing is with you Pro Israel lot, you want all the historical narratives and criticisms to go one way — showing up the wicked “Jew hating anti Semitic Gentiles” — which is all very well as far as it goes : but why don’t you also talk about what Orthodox Judaism has to say about those “evil Gentiles” too?

You see, these narratives go two ways and are not closed.

The pope’s Jewish dilemma

gnosticmind’s comment 08 May 09, 12:41pm

Sorry Jeff, it won’t work, damning by association — For a start if you read Shahak, he quotes the Jewish texts ( Halakha and various others ) directly. Read it — the quotes are there for all to see.They aren’t Shahak’s words — they are the words of Maimonides etc — or are you going to tell me that Maimonides was a lying anti semitic self hating Jew and a kook? No, I thought not.

Secondly, so what if bloody David Duke likes Shahak? Hitler loved Schopenhaur — that doesn’t invalidate Schopenhaur. Mussolini loved the Anarchists Sacco and Vanzetti — that doesn’t invalidate Anarchist theory, for God’s sake.

And, Shahak is also held in very high regard by many eminent scholars, Avi Shlaim, Edward Said, Chomsky and many more.

Sorry, better luck next time at discrediting Shahak.

The UN on Gaza: partial and partisan

gnosticmind’s comment 08 May 09, 3:09am

It’s articles like these from Robbie Sabel that really show Israel up for what it is — a colonial state, built on other’s land, with a flimsy “historical claim” that it “belonged to the Jews 3000 years ago, and now they are going home.” That just does not stand up to any historical/biological scrutiny, and can’t stand up morally, outside of extreme nationalistic/ethno/religio centric hair brained narratvies that we wouldn’t tkae seriously from any other racial/ethnic/relligious groups anymore.

Israel is one of the few states built on that old colonial ethic, like Rhodesia and South Africa.

Why should anyone take such a “God gave it to us” claim seriously anymore? Even Jewish Academics like Zeev Sternhel and Shlomo Sand do not take it seriously anymore.

To understand 7/7, we need an official account

gnosticmind’s comment 02 May 09, 3:16pm

Miskatonic, shmiskatoic ! –

“To cleanse our country of Zionism completely we need to not only jail the Zionist and Pro Zionist activists, but also drain the swamp of Zionism. We could start with education in schools on the horrors of totalitarian regimes, including the different incarnations of Zionism, Zionist Nationalism and triumphalism, and look at modern-day examples of Jewish, Christian, Islamic and Hindu extremism and Nationalism”

The suffering of Israel’s Mizrahis

gnosticmind’s comment 16 Apr 09, 4:56pm

Spoutwell wrote — ” Zionism, eh? Its even a disaster for the Jews.”
Brilliant, well said, the world would be a safer place without Zionism. We all know it, some care, some don’t.

Watch out you don’t get called an anti semite.

How serious a threat is antisemitism?

gnosticmind’s comment 13 Apr 09, 11:06am

Oh for God’s sake, here we go AGAIN!

Don’t you lot ever get tired of going on about anti semitism?

Please……

I have met far far far FAR more people in my nearly fifty years on our planet who were anti black, anti turk , anti arab, anti catholic, anti Irish, anti American, anti northern English, anti Southern English, anti Pakistani, anti Indian, anti Jamaican, anti African American, anti Rasta, than I have anti Semites…..

You lot just go on and on and on and on and on and…,,,,,

Oh dear, I must be an anti semite too…….

Israel’s iron wall

gnosticmind’s comment 13 Mar 09, 11:00am

Harvey, a radically different one from the state we see now — There is no way on earth I can support a state in which a Ukraninan , a Moldovan , a Viennese,a Brooklyn or Parisian or London born Western , European, white Jewish man/woman can freely take land that an Arab Muslim or Christian had lived on for centuries — they offer no compensation for taking that land, no right of return to those arab Muslims and Christians, even though UN law assures them that right, and no real justification, moral or otherwise, for taking that land.

Some say that European Jews owned the land centuries and centuries ago — for a start, most Israelis are secular, and couldn’t care less about mythology from ancient scripture, just as most European Xtians don’t care about thier scriptures so that’s no real justification.

Secondly, are you really telling me that anyone in their right minds truly believes that European Jews from Paris, Rotterdam, Vienna etc — are truly linked genetically to ancient Semitic tribes from that region and therefore tied to the land? Really? SInce when — for arguments sake — did people like Michael Douglas, Gwyneth Paltrow ,Sean Penn, Harrison Ford,Barry Manilow and countless other Ashkenazi Jews look anything like people native to the middle east?

Ashkenazi Jews look….errrrr……..European, because that’s what they are.

Shephardi Jews, and Mizrahi Jews from Yemen, Afganistan,Ehtiopia, Syria etc look……Middle Eastern/Asian/African because errr…… that’s what they are.

Israel was founded as an Ashkenazi colonial venture. Shephardi Jews were , prior to the hell that Israel launched on the region, pretty happily integrated into their Muslim and Xtian communities in the Middle East.

To say that Jews have a historical, religius right to the land is a bit like saying as British people, we have a right to large areas of Germany , Scandinavia and France because that’s where our ancestors hail from — and as Xtians, we could assert we have a right to take Jerusalem, as the Crusaders actually did.

But we don’t — because if we did come out with such stuff, no one would take such rot seriously for a second.

But when it comes to Israel, we all suspend normal intellectual thought and mental processes to a staggering degree, and go along with such preposterous narratives.

Israel’s iron wall

gnosticmind’s comment 13 Mar 09, 3:17am

Most of the rest of the world are just so fed up of Israel and Israelis — they are viewed in exactly the same way we used to, in the 1970′s, view ignorant, bullying, macho, narrow minded white South Africans and Rhodesians, who , in their Army gear, and macho postures, were so totally out of step with public opinion, they didn’t know that they had become international pariahs for their treatment of black people.

Israel — wake up. People are tired of you, except that is, the US administration, that needs a fully paid up rotwellier in the back yard of the Middle East : However, once they don’t need you, they will withdraw their support too, just as the West, once they tired of supporting colonial states in Africa , dumped them unceremoniously too, and left them to fend for themselves.

Israel, the writing is on the wall — however many times you shout “anti semite” to shut people up, the game is well and truly up.

A troublesome priest

gnosticmind’s comment 26 Feb 09, 11:54am

The author wrote — “For Jews, the return of Holocaust denier Richard Williamson to the UK is an irritant. But for Catholics, it’s a disgrace”

That’s interesting — I’d agree that denying a historical tragedy IS indeed a disgrace, and that the Bishop shows historical ignorance and colosal insensitivity too. ( Even David Irving accepts that millions of Jews died in the holocaust for God’s sake, so what is the Bishop on…..)

So — Now that you’ve lectured us on the disgrace the Catholic church will be feeling — can we also discuss the fact that hundreds of thousands of Jewish people,Rabbis and defenders of Israel deny the very existence of a Palestinian people, and deny their massive tragedy,indeed, deny that they ever lived in great numbers on that patch of land now called Israel ?

Or don’t the supporters of Israel feel guilty at denying a very real historical tragedy, that of driving almost an entire nation off their soil?

Or , are some historical tragedies and mass dispossessions somehow “more tragic” than others? How does it work?

Holocaust denial is bad….”Palestinian denial” is pretty bad too.

Or , are some holocausts more tragic than others? How does it work?

Amid the gloom, hope

gnosticmind’s comment 23 Feb 09, 5:12am

I am still unsure as to why Jewish people exclusively need their own state — do Christians, Buddhists, or even Bahai’s and Zoroastrians need their own state in which the population has to be predominantly of one faith?

Jewish people may feel they deserve it because of their suffering in the holocaust — Now, I am no holocaust revisionist scum bag — to deny that Jews suffered in the holocaust is ( a ) colossal insensitivity bordering on the psychopathic ( B ) frankly stupid ,and showing ignorance of history.

But — the point is, Jewish suffering is not exclusive, is not unique, and does not entitle them to rob others land and inflict the same suffering on others.

Jews are not the only people to have suffered collosal cruelty in the first half of the 20th Century — haven’t people ever heard of the Ukrianian holocaust ? Seven to ten Millions were starved to death by Stalin within in a few short years. I will say that again — 7,000,000 — 10,000,000 Ukranians reduced to skeletons by Stalin. But who remembers that? Who is taught about that?

http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/Ukraine_famine.htm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1038774/Holocaust-hunger-The-truth-Stalins-Great-Famine.html

How about the millions of Cambodians or Koreans who also suffered in the first half of the 20th C? What about the Armenian holocaust? ( “Armeni who”? most people will say) Doesn’t their suffering count for much then?

We aren’t allowed to compare these are we — in our western narratives, it’s only the Jewish holocaust that is allowed to be remembered as an unmatachable,unique horror.

Israel wants the Jewish holocaust to be remembered, but no others — Israel wants the holocaust to justify their current violence — that is immoral and collosally selfish.

I don’t want the Jewish holocaust to be ever forgotten or ever made small — it must be remembered as mourned — but it should never be used as an excuse for appaling , murderous, callous, salughtering and mass murderous behaviour from Israel.

Amid the gloom, hope

gnosticmind’s comment 23 Feb 09, 1:47am

People are fed up of Israel and Israelis making the world a more dangerous place to be — the charge of anti semitism is a total red herring.

Stop and think about it : how many people have you met in your entire life – who hated Jews? No, really, think about it — how many people have you known who really, really hate Jews — for being Jews?

My guess is you could count them on half the fingers of one hand.

In fact, I have met more people who hate Catholics, Jamaiicans, African Americans, Irish, even Japanese ( “The Japanese are cruel, heartless people you know– remember the war” ) than I have people who hated Jews.

The truth is, an increasing number of people are increasingly fed up with Israelis, just as they were fed up with white South Africans at the time of apartheid — But Jewish people just can’t face the idea that very few people in the world accept their failed venture ( Israel ) so they resort to calling everyone “anti Semites.”

C’mon now, the silly game is up. We all know it except for the Israel supporters who can’t face the truth that no one in their heart of hearts, wants to support a failed colonial venture anymore.

Sins of the fathers

gnosticmind’s comment 08 Dec 07, 6:14am

bluejewel, brilliant post — in fact, come to think of it, I have read time and time again how ( Catholic, Orthodox Xtian ) Poles, Ukrainians, Rumanians were complicit in the deaths of millions of Jews,more or less rounding up the Jews to willingly and gladly hand over to the Nazis for slaughter.

How true is that assertion — or is it post holocuast Zionist myth making?

And as for groups of annoyingly arrogant Israeli tourists and IDF creeps — yes, I second that, I have met many of them over the years. Horrible lot, absolutely ghastly, and pretty similar to many white south africans I knew in the 60′s and 70′s — they seem to live in a world of their own, often marked by arrogance, thinly veiled racism of various kinds, prejudice, disrespect for locals, and a kind of bullying “F*** you” swagger.