A typical Guardian distortion about Ariel Sharon and Sabra/Shatila massacre


Cross posted from The Commentator with the expressed permission of their publisher, Robin Shepherd

There is obviously nothing funny about the 1982 massacre in Lebanon of hundreds of mainly Muslim Palestinians at the hands of an Arab Christian militia at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps.

But, since practically the entire world has blamed the incident on Israel and one Ariel Sharon, it is hard not to chuckle at the way he once characterised the situation following his removal as defence minister, not for carrying out the massacre of course, but for not doing enough to prevent a massacre carried out by others.

“I’m the only minister of defence in the world — the only one — who left his post and went back to work on a tractor, on his farm, as a result of what Christians did to Muslims. The only one.”

It’s so true, and so piercing because it cuts down to size the flat-out liars who have always blamed him for something he just didn’t do. It can even get as absurd as this nasty little lie slipped into today’s editorial in the Guardian, without question the most bigoted British newspaper when it comes to matters Israeli.

“In 1982, serving as defence minister, he allowed Christian Phalangists into the Palestinian camps of Sabra and Shatila, where they massacred more than 700 men, women and children. An Israeli government inquiry concluded that Mr Sharon bore personal responsibility for the incident,” the paper, which is the house journal of the BBC said.

The only way to make sense of this garbage is to conclude that Sharon must have ordered the Phalangists to do it — which obviously he didn’t — or that he was clairvoyant — which obviously he wasn’t; and knew in advance exactly what was going to happen.

The lie is doubled up with reference to the Israeli government report which simply says he was responsible for not doing enough to stop the incident, not that he actually bore responsibility for what took place. That’s why he and several others were held to have had a measure of indirectresponsibility, but not to have been responsible for the incident itself.

In other words, the truth is the exact opposite of what the Guardian says it is. And they know it.

The Guardian also knows that less than 1 percent of readers will drill down to get to the truth; and in spreading outright lies, a 99 percent success rate is good enough for them. It’s all done of course to discredit, by association, Israel as a whole, because mud sticks.

Oh, you don’t think mud sticks?

Let’s finish with a question or two. Everyone who has heard of Sabra and Shatila has heard of Ariel Sharon in relation to it. But how many people do you think know the names of the Phalangist leaders who actually commanded, led and carried out the massacre?

Do you know their names? Worth a thought isn’t it…?

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104 comments on “A typical Guardian distortion about Ariel Sharon and Sabra/Shatila massacre

  1. The only way to make sense of this garbage is to conclude that Sharon must have ordered the Phalangists to do it — which obviously he didn’t — or that he was clairvoyant — which obviously he wasn’t; and knew in advance exactly what was going to happen.

    That’s garbage in itself. Of course there are the anti-Israel lot who will indeed choose to interpret things that way. But when the G. says Sharon “allowed Christian Phalangists into the Palestinian camps”, as such it means only that.

    the truth is the exact opposite of what the Guardian says it is.

    The “exact opposite”? Oh please. That’s simply untrue.
    And the author himself is being far more economical with the truth than any point in the G. editorial.

    The other big problem with this article is that it seems desperate to exonerate Sharon.

    Plus: referring to the Guardian as the “house journal of the BBC” serves only to further weaken the author’s credibility.

    • “Plus: referring to the Guardian as the “house journal of the BBC” serves only to further weaken the author’s credibility.”

      Not at all pretzelberg.
      I am sure you remember the article in “The Guardian” a couple of years ago by Roy Greenslade in which, after a Freedom of Information request, it was confirmed that the BBC bought more copies of “The Guardian” than any other newspaper. Surprising when you remember “The Guardian’s” circulation figures compared to the other newspapers, both broadsheet and tabloid.

    • Dear Pretel ‘Plus: referring to the Guardian as the “house journal of the BBC” serves only to further weaken the author’s credibility’

      Where does the BBC advertise for job openings? The Daily Mail perhaps, which has 5 times the circulation of the Guardian?

  2. ” it is hard not to chuckle at the way he once characterised the situation following his removal as defence minister, ”

    At least the word massacre stuck and his name will forever be associated with it. No he didnt line the women and children up and tell someone else to shoot them.

    But he was a stunningly powerful man in a land that his forces went into in a spectacularly violent way.. part stage managed for impact on civilians to ensure they really hated the Palies who hid amongst them.

    The word “massacre” should rightly be attributed mainly to the Christians and I suspect the pro Zionists to be overplaying Sharons alleged connection so as to continue the attempt to portray criticism of the IDF as extremist.

    • I have to take issue with you WEbbsite.

      Your comment essentially guides the reader to condemn Israel for the massacre:Guilt by association. But Lebanon had been full of violence and civil war pre-dating any IDF involvement for years and is sporadically violent today. To ignore the reasons for the massacre and those who actually did the killing by creating a blur using Sharon as the scapegoat is the technique of polemicists and not those who seek the truth. You, WEbbsite only know this too well and your repeatedly adopting the same positions in your argument is evident of a great antipathy towards Israel and its very difficult position.

      At his funeral, people spoke of Sharon as being a “complex” person in a complex geographical location. He was , in effect a product of the circumstances. Not an easy character by any means and was criticised severely when he got it wrong. Pinning Sabra and Shatilla on him because you say he was a “stunningly powerful man” however, misses the point. And you do so deliberately.

    • Webbsite:

      As much as a dislike some of sharon’s elements and the way his kids drained the govt of money in the past 8 years while others struggle to make ends meet, I have to point out to your errors about the violence in Lebanon.

      Example:
      “http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/01/13/cannibal-central-african-_n_4587347.html”

      Damn it, those Zionists are still not doing enough to stop those mad Christians…
      Sack the Israeli Defence minister now!

      • …and the way his kids drained the govt of money in the past 8 years while others struggle to make ends meet.
        Which way Itsik? I’m sure you have some concrete evidence…

        • No I don’t Peter it makes little difference to me either way.

          “The fate of Ariel Sharon has been kept silent for years – word does not get past any doctors, politicians or members of his family. In September 2009, the spokesman for Sheba hospital had only this to say to Le Monde: “The only information I can provide you is that his condition is stable and unchanged. For more information, please contact the members of his family.”

          “If this were anyone else,” says the discreet but well-placed doctor, “they would already have let him die. Sharon is kept alive because it is the will of his family, but [the situation] is… pathetic.”

          What may look like aggressive therapy is actually not dictated by religious reasons: Ariel Sharon, like his parents and his sons, Gilad and Omri, is not at all religious. “His family is very attached to him. One might think that it’s irrational, but there it is,” says the physician.”

          http://www.worldcrunch.com/world-affairs/remember-ariel-sharon-nearly-six-years-in-a-coma-and-israel-stays-mum/c1s3983/

          They didn’t break any law by doing so. Whether they broke any other laws is beside the point.

          So let me rephrase my original statement, which was very poorly put:
          As much as a dislike some of Sharon’s elements, choices in life and the way he ended his life, you must give credit where credit is due.
          Sharon was one of those men who made things happen.
          His support of the agriculture communities throughout his time in office as agriculture minister was second to none for example.
          His charachter, pragmatic yet unconditional was one that we would love to remember.

          Unlike many politicians he was not one that spoke like a weasel to get to places. He spoke his mind up every time.
          Sadly Nasrallah was not far from the truth by saying that he was the last king of Israel.
          People with qualities from his generation are hard to find and are being shut down these days by the authorities for not following protocols.

          • “If this were anyone else,” says the discreet but well-placed doctor, “they would already have let him die. Sharon is kept alive because it is the will of his family, but [the situation] is… pathetic.”
            I see, so you – based on the allegations of a “well placed doctor” (who btw clearly a criminal – breaking the most basic ethical rules of the doctor-patient privilege) – accuses the Sharon family with wasting money of the taxpayer by keeping their father alive.
            Thanks for the explanation.

          • Just FYI
            “If this were anyone else,” says the discreet but well-placed doctor, “they would already have let him die. Sharon is kept alive because it is the will of his family, but [the situation] is… pathetic.”
            It hey did then they would sit in jail now. According to Israeli law a doctor can’t “let die” a patient only in case the family asks for it and get permission from the judicial/health authorities or the patient wrote a will to do this before his terminal state.

    • Titterton`s paranoic style, always suspecting the zionists of something doing to his brain

      “..and I suspect the pro Zionists to be overplaying Sharons alleged connection so as to continue the attempt to portray criticism of the IDF as extremist.”

      • When I read that phrase I was strongly reminded of the old pantomime routine:

        “But little does he know that I know that he knows that I know that he knows… (etc.)”

    • Well what do we have here…. “stunningly powerful”… (ie superhuman?) Jew?

      Always preoccupied with Jewish power aren’t you?

      You are an arse, Berchmans.

      Sharon did not cause anyone to hate the Palestinians. They did and still do an excellent job of causing them that all on their own by their barbarism to each other, to their children and to Israel.

      And why are you still here? You said you were going away for a time.

      Get you gone

  3. 2 days ago I argued with ExiledLondoner that Sharon is singledout for the massacres and nobody remembers that it was committed by the phalangists , yesterday in the funeral threads it was obvious I was right .

  4. I have always felt that decisions taken at Shatila and Sabra were dreadful misjudgements for which Arik Sharon was held responsible by the Israeli government enquiry itself. The hatred and viciousness of the phalangist forces was well known. However the fact that no one knows the name of the phalangist commanding officer who both ordered and carried out the killings is very indicative of the mindset of the liberal west.

    This has really got me thinking. Do we know the following names – Col. Robert Franken and Personnel Officer Berend Oosterveen? Now they were the Dutch NATO officers who agreed to handing over the town of Srebrenica in Bosnia to General Ratko Mladic in July 1995. Like Sharon they must have known what the risks were but did little to prevent the massacre of 8000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys over a two day period. There was an investigation but it was decided that no criminal charges could be brought, except of course against Mladic after he had been caught many years later. Had those Dutch troops been Israelis we would all know the name of their commanding officer.

    Equally in Chechnya there was a massacre, on a smaller scale, at a place called Alkan-Yurt (and others too). The Russian commander Major-General Vladimir Shamanov was not prosecuted but actually given a medal “Hero of Russia”. It was decided there was lack of evidence against him but some lesser ranks stood trial and were mainly exonerated.

    All these instances have one thing in common. They were massacres of Muslims by various types of Christians, and in the Srebrenica case one type of Christian allowing another type of Christian to do the killing. But in the case of Sabra/Shatila there was a convenient Jew around to blame, and that is the difference.

    • “But in the case of Sabra/Shatila there was a convenient Jew around to blame, and that is the difference.”

      Not only that.
      There was also a convenient type of victim which can sway a massive lobby behind him.
      Yes. We are talking about OPEC.

      http://www.opec.org/opec_web/en/about_us/25.htm

      But how they use the Palestinian is not relevant according to some people, isn’t that so Berchman?

    • I wish I could vote up your comment multiple times, especially this part:

      “Do we know the following names – Col. Robert Franken and Personnel Officer Berend Oosterveen? Now they were the Dutch NATO officers who agreed to handing over the town of Srebrenica in Bosnia to General Ratko Mladic in July 1995. Like Sharon they must have known what the risks were but did little to prevent the massacre of 8000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys over a two day period. There was an investigation but it was decided that no criminal charges could be brought, except of course against Mladic after he had been caught many years later.”

    • You are suggesting that if the Dutch commander in Srebrenica had been Jewish, his name would be (in)famous? That’s what your post adds up to, at least.

      • No Pretzelberg, please read my post again. I stated that if the Dutch troops at Srebrenica had been Israelis then their commanding officer’s name would have been known. I did not say that if the Dutch colonel (I think he was a major then) had been a Jew that would have made any difference. Israelis tend to be Jews so one doesn’t generally have to make the distinction. Interestingly when the British photographer Tom Hurndall was shot in Gaza in 2004 no one made too much of the fact that the IDF sergeant who fired the shot was a Bedouin.

        • - Your post clearly concluded “in the Srebrenica case one type of Christian allowing another type of Christian to do the killing. But in the case of Sabra/Shatila there was a convenient Jew around to blame, and that is the difference.

          – Re. Hurndall. His case has had considerable coverage. Shouldn’t there by your logic there have been an attempted cover-up by the media given the identity of the sergeant?

          • No, not at all. The extended coverage over the Hurndall case indicted the IDF and that is what they concentrated on. No need to mention Jews because most people accept that Israel is a ‘Jewish’ state. By publicising the identity of the Bedouin soldier they would have lost some of the story’s appeal.

            • By publicising the identity of the Bedouin soldier they would have lost some of the story’s appeal.

              So the global media are anti-Semitic now? Of the various cases where the IDF has shot civilians, the media have rarely published the name of the shooter.

              You have stiill to explain your comment re. “there was a convenient Jew around to blame, and that is the difference.”

              • Please don’t infer what I never implied. I have simply made comparisons between reports of incidents where Israel was involved as opposed to when other nations are involved. I feel that you are attempting to twist my comments in order to then attack them. When I alluded to the fact that everyone knows about Ariel Sharon but nobody knows of Major-General Shamanov or the Dutch NATO officers at Srebrenica, that was fair comment.

  5. Very well put indeed, Mr Shepherd and friends. Moreover, even respectable and respected news-sites like Sky News are clambering on the bandwagon, stating over and again to ad nauseam that Sharon instigated the settlements when even the quickest glimpse of Wikipedia, for example, makes it abundantly clear that they were initiated immediately after the Six Day War under Levi Eshkol’s LABOUR administration. That Sharon proposed over-throwing the Eshkol government is another story …. I was never a Sharon supporter in his life so it would be hypocritical of me to advocate his canonisation now! However, the truth must be told and first we should act to stop the further propagation of the lie that implies that he murdered the residents of Sabra and Shatila by his own hand. BTW, I have a personal abiding memory as a reporter of young Anglo Jewish Orthodox idealists from the North of England joining what was then called ‘Gush Emunim. I do not remember Sharon being mentioned, only saintly rabbinical mentors.

    • Ms. Wood – agreed. I served in Sharon’s command in ’73 and thought him to be a lousy officer. As Housing Minister the total number of new settlements he allowed was a grand total of – three.

      He had is strong points as well as weak points. He had nothing at all to do with Arabs killing Arabs – that they do all on their own

      • Indeed, there’s a fabulous tidbit among the The Times of Israel’s reports of yesterday’s funeral where they interviewed an Arab friend of Sharon who schlepped all the way to the ranch from Dir Al-Assad – the village next to me in Karmiel. The Arab gentleman, who was a long-time business associate if the Sharon family, spoke glowingly of Arik as a man of honour. A deeply compllex character indeed!

  6. Adam, it is not as simple.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-misled-u-s-diplomats-during-sabra-and-shatila-massacre-1.465925

    The events in the Knesset during that period sums it up.
    Simply read Sabra and Shatila by Abraham Weizfeld.

    Some of the speakers shouted out clearly “who’s idiotic idea was it to let them enter the camps?”
    Even David Levy said the writing was on the wall.
    A man with Sharon’s intelegence new it is a bad idea.
    So why did he ignore it and allow those blood thirsty Christians in knowing full well what they did back in Tel Al Zaatar?
    This is a question for which answer he took to the grave with him.
    I doubt Sharon wanted to harm Israeli interests and I doubt very much he wanted to kill civillians, especially in such numbers.
    What was going on behind the scenes is not something we will ever know.

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BKuKpRtHHeUC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=knesset+debate+after+sabra+and+shatila&source=bl&ots=wEWZsy428g&sig=1G1lisKqVfW4zfnWlLqZLfZra6Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YSTVUqvKHsaK0AW4qICABQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=knesset%20debate%20after%20sabra%20and%20shatila&f=false

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_al-Zaatar_massacre

  7. Not only the names of the Phalangists who actually perpetrated the act.
    But how many can name any of the other atrocious civilian massacres that took place during the Lebanese civil war, where no Israelis were around?
    Only one is ever talked about, and talked about endlessly.

    • The killing of the Palestinians in the camp was the falangists’ reaction to the mass killing of Christans during the Damour massacre (300-1500 victims) what itself was the answer to the Karantina massacre (1000-1500 victims). I seriously doubt that the indignant heroes screaming today “Sabra and Shatila” have ever heard of these names and/or are interested in the perpetrators’ identity. It is only natural – no Jews were involved.

      • Actually, Jews (Israelis) were involved in Sabra and Shatilla. The Israeli army surrounded the place and were responsible for all its entrances and exits. They provided tank and artillery cover for the Phalangists. And during the night provided illumination artillery

        • Don’t tell me Ghost of Gone Hernia that in Damour and Karantina theJews did it too…Maybe in Srebrenica the Holland commander was a Jew too? And in Chechnya? The name Shamanov sounds very Jewish…

          • So, are you saying that the IDF was not in control of the area around Sabra and Shatilla and didn’t have control of all access? That it didn’t support its Phalangist allies with tank and artillery cover? That it didn’t fire illumination artillery during the night to help the Phalangists? Are you an Israeli diplomat sent abroad to lie for his country?

        • You show your true intentions by associating Jews with Israelis. Hey Champ: This is how your “criticism” of Israel ends up becoming anti-Semitic.

          Seriously, your blinders are very apparent.

            • Israel is a state for all religions that follows the Jewish calendar. Its laws are based on the lessons in the Tanach. Outside of that, ITS CITIZENS ARE EVERYBODY WHO IS A CITIZEN OF ISRAEL. Your inability to grasp this makes you not a voice for logical discussion. Bottom line: there is a reality which you refuse to admit.

              • No, mate. Israel is the Jewish State. Here is a paragraph from Israel’s Declaration of Independence:

                ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE’S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

                On top of that, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and several of his ministers have made it very clear that without the Palestinians recognising Israel as “the national homeland of the Jewish people”, there’s no chance of a peace deal.

                And as for being a state for all its citizens, here’s Limor Livnat of the Likud on the subject:

                Livnat responded saying “Israel is a Jewish state. It’s certainly not created to be a state of all its citizens.”

                • Funny you want to play word games. The Palestinians don’t want to live in Israel with Jewish laws and Jewish citizens and its Jew-loving Arabs and Christians who already live there. But, yeah, we’ll call Israel’s fault for forcing the Palestinian leadership into this situation. Right? Israel’s existence = Israel’s fault = Jewish problem.

                  The Palestinians don’t want to sign a peace deal (on the table since 2000, mate) because they don’t want to give up their cause which is… what? That’s right: THE DESTRUCTION OF THE JEWISH STATE. Because, see, if only Israel would accept these Israel hating minions and allow them to run roughshod over all the Yids, then maybe there will be peace on this planet.

                  Stay insignificant.

                • Well, yes, but nowhere else in the Middle East are other faiths left free to worship as they please, and, in the case of the Bahais (persecuted by Islam in Iran) given safe refuge.

                  It’s a shame you seem to have such a difficulty with Jews having their own state. It makes you come across as being antipathetic towards them. Are you?

                  How many Muslim states are there? Does Israel take issue with the Muslim nature of, say, Jordan? Why should not Palestinians recognise the Jewish nature of their neighbours? Why should they refuse to do so or cause that condition to be obdurate in refusing to accept a compromise with it?

                  Unless, of course, they hate Jews and the Jewish nature of Israel and to use that as an excuse to continue to repeat behaviours which failed and are doomed to continue to fail.

                • Sorry, guv’nor, but I’m not playing word games, but you are creating strawmen. Israel’s declaration of independence makes it quite clear that Israel is the Jewish State.
                  Netanyahu, in order to sign a peace deal, has made a pre-condition of recognising Israel as the national home of the Jewish people. (And he has even thanked foreign leaders, including rapscallions such as Silviuo Berlusconi, on behalf of the Jewish people).
                  In addition, its ministers have made it abundantly clear that Israel is most definitely not a state for all its citizens.
                  But you continue to create strawmen and women when you have nothing else or constructive to say.

                • Silvertrees, I have absolutely no problem with Jews having a state of their own if that is how they see self-determination. Please don’t put words in my mouth. I merely pointed out that Israel is the Jewish State, its minister deny its a state of all its citizens and its prime minister demand recognition as the national homeland of the Jewish people.

                • Do you know what a Strawman is? Obviously not.

                  Arabs live in Israel as citizens. Palestinian “refugees” don’t want Israeli citizenship.

                  These are facts, Chap. Stated and proven. Your entire premise is childish, dickish, and stupid. WHY THE FUCK SHOULD A 64 YEAR OLD ENTITY LISTEN TO A MORONIC DINGLEBERRY NOT EVEN HALF HER AGE?

                  Idiot.

                • Try as you might, my old fruit, I’m afraid that strawman arguments indicate a severe paucity of knowledge.

                  The points are that Israel is the Jewish state, it isn’t a state for/of all its citizens and its Prime Minister is insisting that nits neighbours recognise it as the national home of the Jewish people.

                  All the rest is commentary.

                  Now, as Hillel the Elder said: Go out and Learn.

              • Who’s talking about Palestinian refugees? Only you. I’m talking about Israel’s declaration of independence which says the country is a Jewish State. Arabs are indeed Israeli citizens, but it’s not – a la Limor Livnat and other high panjandrams – a state for all its citizens.
                You say Israel is a 64-year-old entity, my dear boy. It’s not, it’s 65 years old. Ad meah ve’esrim. עד 120

                • The PA talks about them. Hamas talks about them. The BDS movement talks about them. Apparently, ONLY YOU don’t realize that the Palestinian Refugees are the central figures of the Palestinian refusal to even proffer a counter-proposal to a deal that has been sitting on the table for 14 years.

                  You are an impediment to peace, intelligence, and everything that is good on this planet. You are a joke.

                  Continue your fight for fighting sake, Warrior of Stupidity.

                • My dear old thing, we are talking about Israel being the Jewish state, as written in its declaration of independence. And that Israeli prime minister Netanyahu, demands, as a precondition for signing a peace deal, that the Palestinians recognise it as such or as the national home of the Jewish people. And as its senior ministers have made it clear it is most definitely not a state for all its citizens. In fact, it won’t even accept a formula that says that it is the national home of the Jewish people and and state for all its citizens.

                • What we’re talking about is your inadequacies of understanding Jews, Israel, and Zionism. What we’re talking about is you cherry picking your arguments that all seem to come to the same conclusion, which is that Israel is wrong, the Palestinians are right, and you are some moralistic and educated angel of mercy. In reality, you’re a futile idiot whose mind can not comprehend a different perspective that logically can give you what you want aside from the total capitulation you desire. YOU and not the Palestinian people whom, I am sure, would look at the Camp David agreement as A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION after 64 years of so-called statelessness.

                  I repeat. You are a nothing who will get anyone who listens to you nowhere.

            • That is the “anti-Zionist” Jew-haters perennial response.

              “Palestine” and other Muslim states and countries don’t hate Jews because of Israel. They hate Israel because it is Jewish. Just as you seem incapable of separating out “Jewish” from “Israeli”, so are they, and they teach their children to hate both equally.

        • G H Ghost:
          “Actually, Jews (Israelis) were involved in Sabra and Shatilla.”

          You only cementing Peter’s comment.
          Did you actualy read it?

  8. Not only is Sharon being pinned for Sabra and Shatila, but he also has been getting pinned for the 2nd Intifada. Which is interesting since the same media will not blame the sick psycho whose words and actions led his people to blow up pizzerias at lunchtime.

    The hypocrisy is laughable.

  9. http://www.salon.com/2002/01/26/lebanon_3/

    Don’t like to promote Salon too much but this one article (especially the end of it) hit the nail on the head.

    The Syrian regime had far greater need to eliminate Hobeika than any Israeli had.
    They needed him dead because the chances are they were involved in the massacre one way or another.
    Assad senior knew the way Israelis operate and what they are capable of.
    He also knew how the world would react.
    He could put 1 and 1 together easily.
    He was involved in the massacre of Tel Al Zaatar by supporting the Christians against the Palestinians just a few years earlier.
    Who knows, maybe he just suggested to Hobeika now’s the time to shift towards the Syrian side (as Hobeika did anyway)…

  10. [“I’m the only minister of defence in the world — the only one — who left his post and went back to work on a tractor, on his farm, as a result of what Christians did to Muslims. The only one.”

    It’s so true..........]

    Actually it’s bullshit…..

    Ariel Sharon never resigned because “of what Christians did to Muslims”. He resigned as minister of defence because a Jew called Yona Avrushmi murdered a Jew called Emil Grunzweig.

    Also…just to clarify….is it true that the IDF had the Sabra-Chatila camps surrounded and had complete control over who entered or left these camps? If so, why did the IDF commanders permit Phalangist forces to enter (after having incorrectly briefed the Phalangists that their leader had been assassinated by the Palestinians) ? If I knowingly allow a fox to enter a chicken coop, am I (at least) partly responsible for the consequences? (Remember people- it’s an analogy…no one is disputing the Phalangists (fox) did the killing)

    • Simple really – Aman had advised against allowing Phalangist forces anywhere near IDF operations period. They did not trust the Phalangists at all because of the numerous incidents prior to war.

      The decision was taken away from Aman by the Knesset and Mossad was given the authority to decide that. Mossad of course had NO people on the ground and no clue to the situation. The commanders were ordered by Mossad to allow Phalangist forces to enter. Sharon (whom I never liked) had no say in the matter, nor did any of the commanders.

      Those are the facts.

      • “Those are the facts.”

        Except they’re not…..

        For instance you claim….

        “Mossad of course had NO people on the ground and no clue to the situation.”

        ……..and yet Sharon himself testified to the Israeli cabinet….

        “Does anyone think that our conduct in Lebanon, or the chief of staff’s visit to the Phalange headquarters at 3:30 A.M. on the 15th of the month, did not include officials from the highest echelon of the Mossad, who have been dealing with the issue of Lebanon for years?”

        He went on to be more specific…

        “Wasn’t he [Menachem Navot-high ranking Mossad official] there with me at Phalange headquarters on the morning of the 15th, when we talked about this issue and I instructed him to coordinate the matter with the GOC Northern Command? Wasn’t he there with me in Bikfaya [the Gemayel clan’s village in Lebanon], when I told Pierre Gemayel and Amin Gemayel what we were about to do. Indeed, he translated what I said, just as he translated what the chief of staff said on the 15th of the month.”

        Incidentally, let’s not overlook the fact that the Phalangists and Israeli government of the time were figuratively “in bed together”. It’s well established that Phalangist forces were supplied, financed and trained by Israel to act as a proxy force. The close co-operation between Menachem Begin and Bashir Gemayel and their shared agenda is well documented…..and yet Israel woke up on the 18th September 1982 completely mystified as to who she had been sleeping with?

        By all means keep telling yourselves that but don’t expect to be taken seriously by anyone else.

        • You don`t get the meaning of “on the ground”.
          Mossad had some high ranking officers for dealing and advising there, but Amal had people “on the ground”.
          And according to the Kahane Report, Sharon demanded from Hobeika to behave like every civilised army does.
          Sabra and Shatila were inhabited by around 55.000 people, the disputed count of victims of the massacre ranges between 600 to 3.000 in three days.

          • [You don`t get the meaning of “on the ground”]

            No Fritz, i do get the meaning of “on the ground”. it’s just that I don’t agree with Gee’s (or your) claims-

            “Mossad of course had NO people on the ground and no clue to the situation.”

            The reality is that Mossad had over the course of many years cultivated and developed close contacts with the Phalangist movement. As Sharon himself observed with regard to the 1982 Lebanon war.

            “….Mossad, who have been dealing with the issue of Lebanon for years.”

            Some light is shed on this issue by the recollections of the deputy head of Mossad at the time-

            http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/ex-spymaster-first-lebanon-war-was-mossad-success-despite-sabra-and-chatila-1.270672

            This quote from him is particularly illuminating-

            “The Mossad’s relations with the Christians enabled the senior IDF brass, including the commanders of the forces in the field, to reconnoiter as far as Beirut, and to receive the necessary intelligence.”

            Hardly indicative of Mossad having “..no clue of the situation” during that time.

            I’m guessing he knows more about it than either Gee or yourself.

            Further, the notion that “Sharon demanded from Hobeika to behave like every civilised army does.” should be contextualized by firstly the fact that Hobeika was not in charge of a regular army but a fascist militia DIRECTLY inspired by Nazi Germany (isn’t it somewhat shameful and an embarrassment that Israel should collude and co-operate with such a group) and secondly Sharon had already (incorrectly) attributed the assassination of the Phalangist leader to the Palestinians. Under the circumstances Sharon’s demand seems somewhat hollow.

            • Again you either don`t get the meaning of reconnoiter or you mislead on purpose.
              In the first case, do your homework at home.
              If you are on something, I must refute your insinuations.
              The reconnaissance of the Mossad in advance of the invasion, “as far as Beirut” had a military purpose. It doesn`t say a word about the current situation in Beirut. Very strange of you bringing in contextualisation, but don`t have any grip of the context.
              The Kataeb was not inspired by Nazi Germany, like the mufti and terrorist Al Hussaini, worshipped by the PLO and Hamas alike, and other Arab leaders, but by the Italian and Spanish fascists, which everybody who seriously wants to discuss ought to know. Hobeika was a intimate follower of Bashir Gemayel, leader of the Lebanese Forces, and commanded the Beirut LF. He, too, was responsible for clandestine workings and contact to western agencies, from France and the USA to Israel.
              One important difference to the Nazism is the close relation ot the diverse Falange/Fascist movements and parties, from Chile to Lebanon, to Christian religions and churches, a mission impossible regarding the gap in Germany between Protestants and Catholics.
              According to the Guardian Hobeika
              “claimed that there were 2,000 Palestinian terrorists hiding in the Sabra and Chatila camps.”
              “He was said to have been deeply influenced by the massacre of much of his family and of his fiancée by Palestinian militiamen at Damur in 1976.”

              Whatever you want to insinuate, in Lebanon almost each party had a vested interest in killing Hobeika, except his ally at that time, Syria.

              • [The reconnaissance of the Mossad in advance of the invasion, “as far as Beirut” had a military purpose. It doesn`t say a word about the current situation in Beirut. Very strange of you bringing in contextualisation, but don`t have any grip of the context.]

                You’re missing the point Fritz. i simply included this quote to illustrate the fact that the progress of the IDF campaign in the 1982 Lebanon War was in large part dependent on the activities of the Mossad and their relations with Christian groups in Lebanon (particularly the Phalange). This puts paid to the claim “Mossad of course had NO people on the ground and no clue to the situation”. if you require further contextualization, I suggest you read the entire article i linked. You will come to realize that the activities of the Mossad did not cease with merely reconnaisance in advance of an invasion but continued right up to and beyond the Sabra-Chatila massacres.

                On the subject of the Phalange (Kataeb) party, you claim-

                “The Kataeb was not inspired by Nazi Germany…”

                and yet the founder of the Phalange movement, Pierre Gemayel had this to say…

                “I was the captain of the Lebanese football team and the president of the Lebanese Football federation. We went to the Olympic Games of 1936 in Berlin. And I saw then this discipline and order. And I said to myself: “Why can’t we do the same thing in Lebanon?” So when we came back to Lebanon, we created this youth movement. When I was in Berlin then, Nazism did not have the reputation which it has now. Nazism? In every system in the world, you can find something good. But Nazism was not Nazism at all. The word came afterwards. In their system, I saw discipline. And we in the Middle East, we need discipline more than anything else”

                Again I’m guessing he knows more about his inspiration for founding his movement than you.

                • Same again, no grip of context and meaning. He didn`t say he founded (alone, according to you, he was ONE of the founders) a Nationalsocialist party with a Führer, he founded a Youth movement admiring the discipline of what he saw in Nürnberg, a propaganda event called Olympic games.
                  The Kataeb and the Syrian National Socialist Party were political and ideological foes, which led to a lot of street fights.

                  Regarding the IDF it is quite simple to understand that the Aman was responsible for field operations along the route and in the occupied regions during the Lebanon war, not Mossad. The presence of higher Mossad echolons dealing with their Lebanese counterparts before, during or after Sabra/Shatila doesn`t refute the claim, but points to a deep misunderstanding.
                  The modus operandi of Mossad when operating on the ground entirely differs from what you imagine.

    • ” If I knowingly allow a fox to enter a chicken coop, am I (at least) partly responsible for the consequences? ”
      Oh boy, here we go…

  11. ‘Everyone who has heard of Sabra and Shatila has heard of Ariel Sharon in relation to it. But how many people do you think know the names of the Phalangist leaders who actually commanded, led and carried out the massacre?’

    Elie Hobeika, who towards the end of his life ended up as a Syrian proxy.

    As a follow-up question, who else knows what happened to the residents of Sabra and Chatilla during the ‘war of the camps’ (1985-1987)?

  12. sackcloth and ashes, from what i remember a few thousand Arabs killed each other in Sabra and Chatilla from 85 to 87.
    But you need to remember, when Arabs kill each other nobody cares.

  13. When the Guardian made these stupid lies that Arafat was poisoned by Israel.
    Why no stories by the Guardian about what Arafat did in Damour Lebanon in 76.
    Or how Arafat tried to overthrow King Hussein’s government in 1970 after King Hussein offered to make Arafat PM of Jordan.
    20,000 Arabs were killed because of this Arafat decision.
    Here’s a good article about this.

    http://www.wnd.com/2002/05/13963/

    THE DAY ARAFAT WAS OFFERED POWER
    Joseph Farah.
    05/20/2002

    Does Yasser Arafat really want a “Palestinian homeland”? Or, as many have suggested, is this 35-year-old demand merely a ploy to conduct asymmetrical warfare against the Jewish state of Israel?

    While there is no doubt in my own mind that Arafat has no interest in governing a new Arab state neighboring Israel and living at peace with it, many in the West – even in Israel – remain convinced pursuing such a plan still represents the best hope for the region.

    I just read a 1998 book, “Arafat,” by Said K. Aburish, an author quite sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, which should dispel any such fanciful notions by those still daydreaming about any peace brokered by this man.

    The most enlightening section of the book deals with the 1970 civil war in Jordan between Arafat’s forces and those of the late King Hussein’s.

    Israel and the West could learn quite a lesson from this history.

    “Between mid-1968 and the end of 1969, there were no fewer than 500 violent clashes between members of the various Palestinian guerrilla groups and the Jordanian army and security forces,” Aburish writes. “Serious incidents included the kidnapping of Arab diplomats and unfriendly Jordanian journalists, unprovoked attacks on government offices, rape and the humiliation of army and security officers. The Palestinians, who were legally entitled to set up road blocks, molested women, levied illegal taxes and insulted the Jordanian flag in the presence of loyal Jordanians.”

    Just like today’s conflict between Palestinians and Israelis, there were debates as to whether Arafat controlled the violence or whether he was unable to impose discipline on his followers or challenge groups behind the attacks.

    Repeatedly, shows Aburish, Hussein and Arafat hammered out extensive and specific agreements to bring the chaos under control. Repeatedly, Arafat ignored the treaties and personally violated them.

    Aburish documents in detail the many steps Hussein took in trying to defuse the conflict between his regime and the Palestine Liberation Organization, which had established a nation within a nation in Jordan. Even while members of Arafat’s coalition were actively working on behalf of Hussein’s overthrow, the king made the unprecedented and astonishing gesture of offering to form a government with Arafat – one in which the PLO leader would serve as prime minister.

    “An amazed, almost speechless Arafat turned him down because he had no plan for Jordan, or for incorporating the PLO into a functioning nation state with or without Hussein,” writes Aburish. “With this refusal Arafat, who survives on improvisation and constantly turns turmoil to personal advantage, was left with no option but to continue to contribute to the existing untenable chaotic state of affairs. Unable to control his followers or assume power, he was cornered into trying to maintain the status quo. As if to underscore the absurdity of the situation, immediately afterwards, in June, there was yet another failed attempt by renegade guerrillas to assassinate Hussein by ambushing his motorcade.”

    How far did Hussein bend to accommodate Arafat? So far as to offer him a partnership in the Jordanian government – one in which Arafat would serve as prime minister.

    If Arafat was even tempted to govern a Palestinian state, this opportunity represented the best chance. Jordan’s population is 80 percent Palestinian. There are far more Palestinians in Jordan than there are in Arafat’s Palestinian Authority today.

    Arafat would have none of it. Why? Because he knew that such a deal would come with a string attached. He would have to curtail his terrorist operations against Israel. That price tag was too high for Arafat – and it always will be.

    Instead, following more terrorist operations against Jordan – including what was until Sept. 11 the most dramatic series of airline hijackings in history on Sept. 6, 1970 – Hussein declared war on Arafat’s forces. As many as 15,000 people died in the fighting that lasted nearly a year. So ferocious was the final Jordanian attack on Arafat’s forces that many of his fighters chose to surrender to Israelis rather than face the terror from their own Arab brethren.

    Arafat fled with about 2,000 of his fighters first into Syria and later into Lebanon – where they were eventually responsible for launching yet another bloody Arab civil war.

    What’s the lesson here?

    It is one that has been overlooked by history. Arafat will settle for nothing less than all of Israel. There is little point in negotiating with him. Other Arab leaders have learned this first hand – which is why he will never again be allowed to operate on their turf.

  14. Notice how the pro-Palestinian morons never talk about peace, but always parse the words of others? Not very peace loving. Not very peace active. Just whiny, lame-ass bitches who have never done anything in their lives. Spoiled by the need to be victims their entire lives.

    Just once I would like to hear a Palestinian peace plan that doesn’t involve the destruction of Israel as we know it. But after 64 years, THERE ISN’T ONE.

    No, this isn’t a Straw Man argument, little Scarecrow. Not even close.

    • “Notice how the pro-Palestinian morons never talk about peace, ”

      I condemn any attack on any Israeli and I beg the Palestinians to sue for peace. Is that what you mean?

      ” the destruction of Israel as we know it.”

      You are either a very funny guy who is trying to cheer us all up or clumsy and howlingly lame .Israel will lose a little land . It is an amazing country and will easily build on the Med if it is a partner for peace.

      • Webshit wants to parse Talking About Peace. Well, Webshit, what is the Palestinian peace plan? The Israeli plan was laid out in 2000 and based on the Oslo Accords of 20 years ago. A plan STRENGTHENED when Rabin was assassinated. But Big Man Yasser couldn’t sign off in 2000 because he was afraid of being assassinated by Arabs. And then he died with $1 billion in the bank. Parse it.

        The Destruction of Israel As We Know It is…. Israel as a Jewish state, with Jewish basis behind its laws. Israel as a country with a Justice System, a Defense System, and a Political System that is a Democracy. Israel has 5 daily newspapers that cater to many different political beliefs and religious backgrounds. The same Israel that is the only nation ON THE PLANET with more trees now than 60 years ago. An Israel that grants World Jewry automatic citizenship for REASONS UNBEKNOWNST TO A SMALL, PUTRID MIND SUCH AS YOURS.

        An Israel that would not exist today if there is a Palestinian right of return (on top of their own state…..). An Israel that can exist today with DEFENSIBLE BORDERS.

        That’s my quota for you this month, btw. Now kindly go fuck yourself.

        • Now kindly go fuck yourself.
          He can’t do it to himself – probably can’t to do it anybody. But he already expressed his wish to do it with to murdered Jewish children…

      • Yeah, right Webditz, the Israelis are the party that “needs to prove” they can be a partner for peace.

  15. So you want to talk about peace Kouf where shall we start? Peace based on equity? Respect for each side remorse on the wrong done. We can talk on that basis. But how can there be peace when their is no recognition of the the Nakba How can Palestinians talk to anyone who think of Palestinians as a demographic time bomb. Those Zionists who want to withdraw because they cannot tolerate a Palestinian majority in their midst. Those who want to stay just wants to push the Palestinians to the other side of the Jordan. Palestinians have no partner for peace just a bully who wants to beat them at every pretext.

    As for Sharon not ordering the massacres in Lebanon reminds me of a person who puts a venemous snake in a child’s cot and when the child dies of a snake bite he defends himself by saying he could know the snake will bite the child and that he did not tell the snake to bite either. Of course in the proper court of law he was found guilty of first degree murder.

  16. “Did Jim Chance just compare Lebanese to venomous reptiles?”

    I dont know if I can comment I’ve never smoked any venomous creatures.

  17. No cba I did not compare the Labanese with anything except the murderous sqaud that Sharon sent into the Camps to do his dirty work. Murderous thugs. I respect the Labanese who have given refuge to the Palestinians escaping Israeli agression in the region for over 60 years.

  18. I respect the Labanese who have given refuge to the Palestinians escaping Israeli agression in the region for over 60 years.
    Jimmy, Jimmy your knowledge of reality is on par with your intellect. Go and learn the sad fact that your Lebanese brothers ,a href = “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Lebanon”>treat your Palestinian brothers as pigshit. Your respect went exactly to the correct place.

    • Correction:
      I respect the Labanese who have given refuge to the Palestinians escaping Israeli agression in the region for over 60 years.
      Jimmy, Jimmy your knowledge of reality is on par with your intellect. Go and learn the sad fact that your Lebanese brothers treat your Palestinian brothers as pigshit. Your respect went exactly to the correct place.

  19. Well unlike the zionists who are full of pigshit I differentiate between the government of Lebanon and its peoples – There are many labanese who are campigning for better rights for Palestinian refugees living in Lebanon. Indeed, many of them are active in the struggle to liberate Palestine.

    I also differentiate between the racist zionist administration in Israel from the peoples of Israel many of them including some Jews, are fighting for Palestinian rights and against house demolitions and land grabs of the Israeli government.

    • Yeah Jim. That would be the racist zionist administration that has and enforces the most liberal, democratically accountable and egalitarian laws in the region (and for many a mile outside the region), that allows citizens of whatever religion, sexuality, gender or colour any position in social, military, judicial or political life, in which a Muslim Supreme Court judge can convict a Jewish President of sexual offences, under which – for the first time IN HISTORY – peoples of all 3 abrahamic faiths are freely able to pray at their holy shrines in Jerusalem without persecution.

      Some “racist administration”!

      • Up to a point, Lord Cropped. Up to a point. Judge George Karra, who convicted Katzav, is Christian, not Muslim.

        And I’m sure you will agree that the chance of there ever being a non-Jewish Prime Minister, Defence minister, any other senior minister or top ranking officer in the police in Israel is about as likely as chief rabbi David Lau becoming pope.

        • And I’m sure you will agree with me that the chance for a person of Kurdish origin will be the Turkish prime minister or a Polish citizen of pure German origin will be the Polish foreign minister or a Transsylvanian Saxon or Hungarian will be the chief of the Romanian police or a Turkish citizen of Greece will be the mayor of Athens is about as likely as you ever will be considered other than a complete idiot.

          • “And I’m sure you will agree with me that the chance for a person of Kurdish origin will be the Turkish prime minister…..”

            Actually former prime minister and president of Turkey, Turgut Ozal, was Kurdish.

            • Just to clarify, I’m in agreement with Peter’s point but perhaps Turkey wasn’t the best example.

            • You just don’t know who anybody is these days. Actually Tomas de Torquamada (the chief inquisitor of the Inquisition) was half Jewish. That said it was the other half that caused us a few problems.

          • My dear fellow, I don’t think I said otherwise regarding Poles, Germans, Hungarians or Turks. But I note that you too are well versed in the art of the straw man argument.
            Still, old chum, it doesn’t negate the fact that brother Labenal was wrong to claim that any Israeli from any race, religion, colour, creed, gender could take any top or other position in Israel.
            And he was wrong about Judge George Karra being a Muslim. But never mind.

            • Labenal was absolutely correct saying that “any Israeli from any race, religion, color, creed, gender could take any top or other position in Israel.” Obviously in the recent circumstances the probability that an Israeli Arab would be elected as prime minister is very low, but the possibility is guaranteed in Israeli law. The lack of Arab top echelon Israeli leaders has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with the Arab/Israeli conflict. Whether Judge Kara is a Muslim or Christian is totally irrelevant, he belongs to the Arab minority.
              Regarding your “straw man argument” crap – it only shows that you obviously haven’t a clue about its meaning.
              BTW addressing you opponents “dear fellow”, “old chum” supposed to be the caricature of a condescending British upper-class asshole or do you are really belong to this category? Be informed that I definitely doesn’t belong to the certainly very big circle of your “anti-Zionist” comrades.

              • But, my dear old thing, it does matter what Labenal said, because he was absolutely clear that the judge who convicted Katsav was a Muslim.
                And, old bean, I didn’t say it was because of racism that a non-Jewish Israeli couldn’t become PM, defence minister, president or chief of staff. Racism was your word.

  20. So Fritz it is alright to call Palestinians pigs but not the zionist who call other pigs pigs Why these double standards?

    • Jimmy your kindergarten diploma should have been revoked due to your complete illiteracy. Nobody called the Palestinians pigs it is only in your sick fantasy. I repeat the sentence especially for you using only capital letters:
      GO AND LEARN THE SAD FACT THAT YOUR LEBANESE BROTHERS TREAT YOUR PALESTINIAN BROTHERS AS PIGSHIT..
      And BTW you are right in a funny way – according to your buddies we Jews are the descendants of pigs and monkeys.
      And now go and explode yourself just please do it privately not according to your usual habits – the 72 virgins are waiting for you already don’t let them down…

    • This is for your education (try to ask someone literate to read for you):
      Lebanon:
      1950-58: Would only issue one-way travel documents for Palestinians to leave the country
      1962: Palestinians classified as “foreigners”:
      73 job categories banned until 2010; now there are “only” 50 jobs off limits
      They are still banned from working as physicians, journalists, pharmacists or lawyers.
      They are not permitted to build new houses or own property, or even to repair their homes
      Martial law imposed on refugee camps. Army stops people from entering and exiting.
      Limitations on schools for Palestinian “foreigners”
      Not allowed to live outside refugee camps, which in turn are not allowed to grow. Population of camps is now triple capacity.
      Palestinians not allowed to create organizations.
      1975-78: At least 5000 Palestinians killed in Lebanese civil war
      1985-88: Thousands killed in “War of the Camps”
      1995: Law prohibiting Palestinians from entering country without a visa; and visas weren’t issued. Those expelled from Gulf states could not return to Lebanon. (Law repealed in 1999.)
      2005: Specific laws prohibiting foreigners who are not “nationals of a recognized state” – Palestinians – from owning property. Those who owned it previously cannot pass it to their children.
      2007: 31,000 Palestinians homeless because while Lebanese Army destroyed Nahr el Balad camp
      2013: Some 50,000 refugees from Syria treated differently from other Syrian refugees; expensive temporary short-term visas effectively make them criminals
      2013: Lebanon starts turning some Palestinian Syrian refugees away at the border

      That you respect these humanist brothers is only natural.

  21. Hungarian your concern for the Palestinians is very commendable so why not just let them return to their homes in Palestine -

    • I understand that you didn’t ask anyone to read my post to you and tried to decipher it yourself. What can I say… Absolute and total failure Jimmy. But anyway I will be the first to support their return their homes in their Arab homelands including a future Palestinian state whose existence is in jeopardy due to your kind of illiterate Jew-haters. Those who can’t return must be compensated, their compensation must be deducted from the moneys to be paid for the Jews expelled from Arab countries and obviously don’t want to return to these earthly paradises and leading lights of democracy.

  22. Sure, the refugees of 1948 might return home into a future Palestine when the negotiations are finished.
    If the Arab immigrants to the British mandate from Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon before 1948 will be excluded, depends on the future state.

  23. Fritz where would that be? on the moon –

    I do not think Israel is serious about a Palestinian state on this planet – but why can they not return to the homes they were chucked out of in Palestine – why wait till Israel builds that future Palestine on the moon and apparently that work cannot begin until settlements occupy rest of Palestine

    • …but why can they not return to the homes they were chucked out of in Palestine…
      Because they made a very bad mistake thinking that they could annihilate us and now they must pay for this mistake. History isn’t fair little Jimmy. You messed with the wrong guys…

    • “…a Palestinian state on this planet..”

      Dim Jim which planet would that be?
      I take it you are referring to Planet Moron where you and the other illiterate morons live?

      By the way Dim Jim you need to buy a new ‘spell-checker’ for your computer, either your current one is malfunctioning or it isn’t set to ‘English’.

  24. Is that what that strong man West of Hungary said and look what happened to him – his mates were tried at Nuremburg and he apparently killed himself – you are awful with your abuse and if my spelling bothers you learn to live with it you moron

    • “.. you are awful with your abuse and if my spelling bothers you learn to live with it..”

      No, no Dim Jim, I am trying to help you.
      But if you don’t want my help and are content to live with your mangling of the English language, truth, history and geography. If you are happy making yourself look like an illiterate moron, that is your choice Dim Jim.

  25. .Why should they want to live in Israel, these elederly people of maybe 70.000? In a future Palestine they will find theur homes.
    Hush, little Natzie, don`t you cry

  26. Fritz because it is their home you are not getting it – I suspect you will never get it until Nuremburg II – it will be too late by than

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