A wall is not equivalent to a suicide bomber: Denis MacEoin responds to Bethlehem Unwrapped


The following essay was written by Denis MacEeoin and originally posted at Gatestone Institute.

There has been an enormous uproar over the decision by the Church of St. James at Piccadilly to erect a mock version of a wall that is part of Israel’s security barrier around the West Bank. The barrier is seen in black-and-white, politically biased terms, something that has become commonplace among politically motivated Christians in the UK, for whom there is only one narrative in the Middle East, namely the Palestinian narrative.

The attack on Israel that it represents is high-minded, inarticulate, and without compassion for the Jewish people. It is also without compassion for those Christians who live in the West Bank and are attacked, persecuted, and expelled by their Muslim neighbours: an outrage St. James’s and its clerics fail to address.

Visitors to the festival inscribe their messages on the replica wall at St. James Church, London.

Visitors to the festival inscribe their messages on the replica wall at St. James Church, London.

The Christians who berate Israel in this fashion have two biases. First, they seem to be in favor of a style of Christianity that takes Christ’s vocation for the poor — a value that has led to so much good throughout history — and blends it with political strategies that may sound well-intended, but that often harbor dark and corrosive side-effects.

It has for some time seemed natural to many Christians to follow a political path that disparages the norms of stable society by taking decent liberal values to extremes: a hatred for colonialism that has led to a wider hatred of the West and its values, a love for the Third World that results in turning a blind eye to things such as honor killings and executions for apostasy, and a concerted hatred for Israel that slips all too easily into anti-Semitism in a bizarre reflection of the far right.

What it adds up to is a striving for political correctness above all other values.

Where well-intentioned yet dangerous strategies lead, some Christians (and others) follow all too eagerly. Thus, Israel is condemned as an oppressive “colonialist” state, as an “apartheid” state, even as a “Nazi state,” and actions that are in fact defensive are interpreted as hate-driven persecution of an innocent, harmless people who have done nothing to deserve the predicament in which they find themselves.

The second bias is more disturbing. The man behind the St. James Wall is none other than Stephen Sizer, an Anglican clergyman who has become obsessed with the wrongs of Israel. The church-based group he founded, Sabeel (Arabic for “path”), pursues his doctrine of supercessionism.

Supersessionism, which has an ignoble history in the Christian churches, is the doctrine that God has finished with the Jews, that the Covenant he made with them has been superseded through a new Covenant with Christ. Whatever its value as a theological concept, when supercessionism is allied with the sort of “far-left” political thought we have looked at above, it creates a particularly unpleasant form of anti-Semitism. If the Jews have been abandoned by God, it goes, they have no rights on this earth. Above all, their claim to the Holy Land is spurious and must be resisted. Curiously, what the Christians who oppose Jewish rights in Israel are actually doing is to endorse the Muslim belief that all the land belongs to them — by right of conquest. But Muslim persecution of Christians, Jews, Baha’is and others across the Middle East, is all right.

The Wall expresses this supercessionist philosophy very well. It is no good to argue with the anti-Israel crowd that the barrier saves lives, that it has already saved hundreds, perhaps thousands, of lives. If the Palestinians are hurting, they will say, and are being prevented from launching terror attacks that will kill innocent Israeli men, women, and children, then every last inch of the barrier must be torn down, for nothing should stand in the way of the Palestinian freedom to kill and maim, least of all Jews.

Just over a year ago, after a Christian conference on Israel and the Palestinians, I wrote a long report that showed the prejudice that ran right through the proceedings. One speaker made an impression on me. She belonged to EAPPI, the Ecumenical Accompaniment Programme for Palestine and Israel, which takes visitors to the West Bank and gives them a pro-Palestinian story. This woman spoke for half-an-hour on the checkpoints manned by Israeli troops in the West Bank. Having lived some of the time in Northern Ireland during the Troubles, I know a bit about checkpoints. The EAPPI speaker complained that these checkpoints should be torn down, like the Wall. No-one challenged her by pointing out the number of times when Palestinian terrorists tried to go through checkpoints with weapons and suicide belts. What did this woman want? More dead Jews? Because that is what any dismantling of checkpoints would lead to.

There is a constant problem for those of us who provide information in support of Israel, and it strikes me as the reflection of a deep moral emptiness: How often do we point out that there are countries all round the world that carry out human rights abuses on a grand scale, and that Israel, by comparison, is a model democracy that is only forced to take action to defend the country and to save Israeli lives. No one ever seems to understand what that is about. The answer is usually along the lines of, “Just because other countries are worse doesn’t mean we shouldn’t protest about Israel.” (They might add, “and that empowers us to ignore what goes on in Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, China or any of those other countries we aren’t interested in.”)

St. James’s officials hold radical perspectives on many issues, using a range of liberation theologies to bolster their position. Much of this is commendable, such as the value they place on black people, women, and the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender community. But it seems at times that the motive for such support may be less Christian charity and more a need to be politically correct in their politics.

One of Israel’s great achievements is the way it has become the only country in the Middle East (and beyond) where gay men and women are safe from attacks, imprisonment, torture or execution. We often refer to this as a sign that Israel is a democratic, tolerant society, like anywhere in Europe or North America. It is a justifiable cause for pride in a country surrounded by states that condemn all homosexuals as criminals. But put this to anyone who takes a pro-Palestinian line and they might tell you this is just “pinkwashing,” which is to say that Israel pretends to be tolerant in order to whitewash its crimes towards the Palestinians, that their concern for minorities is not genuine.

In other words, whatever Israel does, it cannot win. It can never be granted the benefit of the doubt. It must always be wrong, whatever its actions: To defend itself against terror attacks is aggression against innocent people. To build a wall and fence that save lives has nothing to do with self-defense, but is designed as part of a creeping occupation of Palestinian territory. Whatever the Biblical record, Christians acquiesce in the Palestinian claim that there were never Jews in the Middle East, that they are all European immigrants who arrived holding machine guns, that there was never a Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount (not even the one Jesus visited), that Palestinians — who did not exist by that name until the establishment of the British Mandate of Palestine in 1920 and who arrived in the Levant in 637 with the Arab invasions after Muhammad — have lived on the land for 9000 years.

Again, I am moved to suggest that Christians who believe such nonsense are motivated, not by the Bible text or by Biblical archaeology, but by a need to see the Palestinian people as dispossessed, vulnerable denizens of a land they have tilled and pastured on for millennia, and to see the Jews in every possible light of infamy, stealing with bloodied hands the treasures of Israel’s true and ancient inhabitants; the builders of barriers, not bridges; Christ killers; and the inhabitants of the world’s most criminal state — perhaps the world’s only truly criminal state.

In Europe, anti-Semitism reaches new heights every year. Most Jews have fled from Norway, others are leaving Sweden, Denmark, France and the UK in growing numbers. In Ukraine, Romania, Hungary and elsewhere, “far-right” parties have become major players in politics. The “far right” is typically racist, anti-gay, anti-feminist, and anti-Semitic, often modelling itself explicitly on the Nazis or Mussolini’s fascists. When did St. James or Stephen Sizer last hold an event to protest this deep evil, this resurgence of fascism and Jew-hatred in the lifetime of the last survivors of the Holocaust?

The Jewish experience in Europe is starting to approach the level of anti-Semitism found there before the rise to power of the Nazi party in Germany. Isn’t that something to preach about from the pulpit? But Christians of many varieties do not speak out about this resurgence of one of the greatest evils to befall mankind. They prefer to tell obvious lies — Christians are safe in Muslim countries, but endangered in Israel; Israel is an “apartheid state”; Bethlehem has been “surrounded” by the security barrier; Israelis deliberately kill Palestinian children; life would be better if suicide bombers could gain free access to Israel) — and to let radical “far-left” politics define who and what they are as Christians.

During the Second World War, nineteen thousand of Christians risked (and gave) their lives to provide safety and security to Jews threatened with death by Hitler’s merciless machine of destruction. Such noble individuals have been known as the “Righteous among the Nations” and have been honored by Israel as such. Martin Gilbert has written a book about them, The Righteous. But many of today’s Christians show no understanding of the morality that inspired their predecessors. Today, Jews are the victims of persecution once again, and in Israel they face the threat of a second Holocaust. Yet so-called Christians have allied themselves with the sworn enemies of the Jews. They want to pull down a barrier that has a track record in saving Jewish lives, and if they should ever succeed, anti-Semitic killers will start to work their way into the places where they plan to bring death and disability to who works or plays or eats or drinks or dances or sings or studies or worships or teaches or heals or writes poetry or serves with the army or writes books of great erudition, or walks or runs or flies. Terrorists I can understand. But Christians who actively help them?

Christians have many vocations, and St. James Church illustrates this in bold and incisive ways. But one vocation seems to have been lost: the vocation to tell the truth, to use Christian morality as a measure for all other judgements. The clergy and congregants of St. James have open and tolerant hearts, yet not, it seems, for Jews or Israelis. They have trapped themselves within a single, immoral narrative that exalts and venerates Palestinians above other suffering people elsewhere, and that fails to distinguish between Palestinians who suffer from the conflict and those whose hate for Jews drives a cycle of violence that hurts both Israelis and their own people. They lack a moral compass by which to choose between right and wrong. A wall, however oppressive, is not equivalent to a bomb aboard a crowded bus.

The West Bank barrier is only one of over 30 walls and fences round the world. Most of those are also anti-terror fences. Some are electrified and have killed many people — over 4000 in one instance, the barrier between Ceuta and Morocco. The long North Korean barrier is policed by two million soldiers. Yet St. James does not build mock-ups of any of these walls, nor does it preach about the deaths they cause. The clergy at St. James just concentrate on part of a security barrier that has saved lives. Shame on them for their blatant hypocrisy coupled with the assumption of moral superiority. Shame on them for their adroit negotiation of meaning, portraying themselves as champions of human rights while they show a streak of anti-Semitism in their routine assignment of evil only to the Jewish state.

Enhanced by Zemanta

149 comments on “A wall is not equivalent to a suicide bomber: Denis MacEoin responds to Bethlehem Unwrapped

    • Most of it is very interesting with some confusing statements on my part.
      Most of my Christian friends state very clearly that Israel is being seen in a negetive light by the main stream media and not the Christian channels.
      I have no idea cause I do not view the mainstream Christian channels.

  1. ” a concerted hatred for Israel that slips all too easily into anti-Semitism in a bizarre reflection ”

    This is another example where opposition to a giant wall on somebodies land dovetails into antisemitism.. I dont know how…by osmosis I guess. But with the added ” bizarre ” just in case anyone was in doubt that such a stance is a heartbeat away from the necessity for in booking into some psychotic ward.

    Of course the two merge. Both Hamas but also Israel are desperate to single out the “Jewishness” that is the issue not some people who want to live without the lunatics on both sides destroying any chance of peace.

    • Webby – “I don’t know how… by osmosis I guess.” Clearly, you didn’t read the article, which clearly and in some detail explains why and how the obsession by some Christians with the Palestinian “cause” is indistinguishable, if not in motivation, but clearly in effect, from classical far right and extemist Islamist antisemtism.Having said that, you are actually right – osmosis is a good term for it. These people start out well meaning, with what I believe to be a genuine concern for people who are genuinely in distress, but by taking on the “Palestinian as victim” narrative, over time they absorb the messages of “Israel as uniquely evil” (which is a clealt antisemitic point of view) that go along with it, and become blind to any argument to the contrary.

      • “Israel as uniquely evil” (which is a clealt antisemitic point of view)

        Sure but why even mention it unless you think I have that card up my sleeve. I just dont believe such a phrase is useful on a site dedicated as it is to precision in reporting. You know it is mainly pro Israelis that use such an expression to taunt us Ahmadenijah lovers

        Having said that you are one of the lesser frightening of anyone here that bats for team Israel so maybe Im being unfair

      • Labenal, Berchmans, “I studied anti-racism” is completely oblivious to Jew-hatred. His knee-jerk reaction to proven examples of it is to deny them or minimise them.

        He just doesn’t get it, no doubt because he daren’t contemplate the full extent of it and is incapable of admitting that it fails to register his oh so sensitive PC nature.

        Ignore the silly b*gger. He’s hot air and a waste of space.

    • Let me help you out, Webshit.

      Before wall: Pizzeria blown up at lunch time. Discotheque blown up on a Friday night. A hotel blown up during Passover.

      After wall: NOBODY BLOWS UP ANYBODY.

      Difference? With wall, Israelis live. Israel = Jewish state. So, without wall, you are pining to KILL JEWS IN THE JEWISH STATE.

      Killing Jews = ANTISEMITISM

      I know. It’s complicated until you sit down a think about it. OR IS IT?

      • Surely you’re not saying that everybody who wants to see the wall taken down is “pining to kills Jews”?

          • No, he’s not. It’s a rhetorical question, something you’re probably not familiar with judging from the quality of your other posts.

              • Sorry, posted that comment in the wrong place.
                Saying that every single person who wants the security fence to come down is pining to kill Jews is a bit OTT, although that’s certainly what would happen. BUT, many of those people have no excuse for their studied ignorance. And St. James Church has a duty not to propagate that ignorance and the odious slander that goes with it.

        • I don’t know whether is pining or not but surely doesn’t give a flying piece of pretzel if the Jews will be killed.

        • The only way that wall comes down is when there is no longer a reason to keep it up. That wall is a completely peaceful response to terror and has an amazing track record in keeping the peace. To say that wall has to come down, and it’s Israel’s onus only, is a fallacy and, yes, in this context of the conversation, an example of willingly allowing Israeli society to be blown to bits, bit by bit.

        • I would love to see that wall come down. Give me a reason to not need that wall there, and I will listen. But this is not the Berlin Wall. Israel isn’t separating herself from her neighbors or citizens, and the reason for the wall is far from racist. Those allegations are ridiculous and insulting to the people who have lost their lives while going about their daily lives.

          Remember, the reason for killing Israeli children is to kill them before they become IDF. I mean, HOW FLIPPING RACIST ARE TERROR ATTACKS? WHY IS THE INHERENT RACISM OF THE SBARRO BOMBINGS NEVER AN ISSUE BUT THE WALL EQUATES APARTHEID?

          Come on….

          • I agree with you, but calling it a ‘wall’ is another fallacy. Watch out for these guys, they’re tricky. e.g., Wall, racist, apartheid, colonialist, Palestinian, indigenous, Palestinian Jesus, revolutionary, “resistance.”

      • After wall: The PA decided on a policy of non-violent resistance.

        Strange how this wall is constructed INSIDE the border. If it was to prevent terrorism the green line would have sufficed.

        • “After wall: The PA decided on a policy of non-violent resistance.”

          Not really. But to the extent that there is less violence, you may thank the Israelis for constructing the security fence. By the way, it’s overwhelmingly a fence, why would you keep calling it a wall? I’ll take it to mean that you have no objection to the fence itself, but only those sections where there is actually a wall. Good?

        • Non-violent resistance my ass. Teach cohabitation in the schools. Don’t perform Nazi routines in the university courtyard.

          Years of this shit, by the way. The PA have dug their own grave. They need a major overhaul in logic pronto.

          • “Non-violent resistance my ass. Teach cohabitation in the schools. Don’t perform Nazi routines in the university courtyard.”

            Couldn’t agree with you more. The BIG issue. Coming to a negotiating table while indoctrinating testosterone infested youths in the glories of butchering Jews is about as duplicitous as it gets. Not much of a secret either that the self-absorbed do goodies of Piccadilly avert their eyes from.

            • There are Palestinian leaders and civilians who want peace with Israel. The problem is there’s a chokehold against them ever saying or doing anything. Collaborators are hung up by nooses.

              • Name one – I dare you. There is no peace movement in the PA at all and never has been one. They declare that they will finish what the Germans stated

                • Name one out of a few million people? Sorry, this isn’t the story of Lott, I’m not Abraham, and you’re not God.

                  There was a conference yesterday between Israeli and Palestinian civilians that was bombarded by anti-Peace Palestinians. You can look it up on CAMERA.

        • The Arabs call you a liar. The PA had never advocated any such policy. In fact they state that they have a right to commit genocide.

          As for the border – it happens to be the Jordan River legally, morally and physically.

          The Arabs have not one single legal claim to any of the territory. ALL the international laws and treaties state that.

    • Another moron that thinks that somehow the moral equivalent of terrorism is defense. There is no chance of peace because the Islamofascists are the embodiment of the 1930s fascists.

  2. It is also without compassion for those Christians who live in the West Bank and are attacked, persecuted, and expelled by their Muslim neighbours: an outrage St. James’s and its clerics fail to address.
    Open Door – a U.S.-based group tracking persecution of Christians around the world compiled a listcontaining the 50 worst countries where Christians are persecuted, oppressed, murdered and marginalized. Two interesting facts:
    – 38 among the 50 worst offenders are Muslim countries, the Palestinian Authority is on the 37. place
    – Israel is not on the list at all

    During the last years of WWII the Nazis pushed the transport of the Jews to the death camps clogging the railway lines to the East and wasting a huge quantity of transport capacity ignoring the dire need of military supplies for their own army fighting on the eastern front. Murdering the Jews was more important than stopping the advance of the Red Army.
    On the Christmas of 2013 the Church of St. James at Piccadilly considered more important to bash Israel than trying to help their own persecuted coreligionists worldwide and wasted a big sum of money for this despicable propaganda stunt instead of helping the poor according to their own principles and traditions.
    Setting your priorities correctly is very crucial on the way toward the final victory dear brothers….

    • During the last years of WWII the Nazis … On the Christmas of 2013 the Church of St. James at Piccadilly …

      Silly as the church’s stunt may be – yours is an absolutely preposterous comparison.

      • Couldn’t and shouldn’t the monies used to erect a political propaganda stunt been used perhaps to feed and shelter the poor at Christmas time? How is taking a political position, and one that can’t be objectively defended on the merits, the business of a church?

      • As the British aided the Nazis in World War 2 in their genocide – they do the same with the Islamofascists. Some things do not change. And the comparison is most apt

      • No more preposterous than the statement that when the Arabs in Gaza watched Israel withdraw, instead of state building, they preferred to fire rockets and mortars into southern Israeli cities thereby provoking reprisals.

        It seems that Palestinians/Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

  3. The Christian anti-Zionists think that Islamic supremacism is only against the Jews.

    Imagine their surprise when they find out that Christians are equally despised by Muslim fundamentalists, and the terror and intimidation begins to affect European Christians too.

    I look forward to their enlightenment.

  4. ” their surprise when they find out that Christians are equally despised by Muslim fundamentalists, ”

    I recall talk of days when it was the other way round. When Crusading Christians not only despised but walked across Europe to slaughter ,destroy and eat Muslims ( and not because they hungry ..but just to intimidate ) They then started on the Jews who fled to the Muslims for safety..

    Thats what I call a religion of peace.

    • Blimey O’Reilly. Talk about disappearing off on a tangent. This is not a bloody battle to see which religion has the worst history of oppression and violence. It is a discussion about how Christians TODAY are oppressed in Muslim countries TODAY and how their brothers in the West seem perfectly content to ignore that while abusing the only country in the region where Christians are thriving and need fear no persecution.

    • If the “Crusading Christians” you talk about actually ate Muslims as a matter policy or not, your talking of the Middle Ages, centuries and centuries ago. Most would agree that civilization has progressed somewhat since then. That is, everywhere except among the barbaric, fanatical and expanding Islamic movement you’re so intent on justifying.

    • the persecution of Copts in Egypt, Iraq, Syria and many other Muslim countries
      the persecution of Bahais and any other religious minorities in Iran
      the mass murder of Shia Muslims by Sunni Muslims and vice versa
      the persecution of gays and “adulterers” in most Muslim countries
      the beheading of “witches” in Saudi-Arabia
      the persecution and expulsion of Jews from virtually every Muslim countries
      the mass murder and rape of Muslims by fellow Muslims in Sudan
      the shooting and mutilating little girls who want to get an education in Afghanistan and Pakistan
      the burning of Christian churches in Nigeria
      etc. etc
      That you berchmans – a mild mannered socialist who threatened raping a female poster opposing his views and a childcare professional who makes sexually loaded jokes about a 15 years old murdered girl – calls this a religion of piece is only natural.

    • “They then started on the Jews…”
      Not correct.
      They started the butchery by slaughtering Jews on their way to the holy land despite promisses of safety by kings, barons and clergy men, though at times it was done on their request.

      Most European Jews along the crusaders path didn’t flee to the Muslims for safety but rather to the Church and barons but many chose to die when were forced to convert.
      Surviving ones scraped it through.

      Jews fought along side Muslims in Jerusalem and many other cities in the middle east.
      Some say they protected cities like Haifa by themselves against the onslaught of the first crusade.

      They were slaughtered like muslims were by the crusaders and whoever left was sold to slavery and some managed to be saved by other Jews paying the ransom.

      It was Salah Al Din that brought the Jews back into Jerusalem after the crusaders expelled them.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_the_Crusades

      http://jdstone.org/cr/files/thetruthaboutthecrusades.html

      http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0005_0_04737.html

      “Upon the capture of Jerusalem, Saladin summoned the Jews and permitted them to resettle in the city.[94] In particular, the residents of Ashkelon, a large Jewish settlement, responded to his request.”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin

    • Jews who fled to the Muslims for safety. Until muslim decided that they are too succefful and than just salugther and destryoed them all over the Isalamic wrolds . In the words of Maimonides a great Jewish rabbi who worte 1172
      .”. on account of our sins God has cast us into the midst of this people, the nation of Ishmael [that is, Muslims], who persecute us severely, and who devise ways to harm us and to debase us…. No nation has ever done more harm to Israel. None has matched it in debasing and humiliating us. None has been able to reduce us as they have…. We have borne their imposed degradation, their lies, their absurdities, which are beyond human power to bear…. We have done as our sages of blessed memory have instructed us, bearing the lies and absurdities of Ishmael…. In spite of all this, we are not spared from the ferocity of their wickedness and their outbursts at any time. On the contrary, the more we suffer and choose to conciliate them, the more they choose to act belligerently toward us”

  5. “The Jewish experience in Europe is starting to approach the level of anti-Semitism found there before the rise to power of the Nazi party in Germany.”

    I’m afraid this is simply not true in the UK or France.
    I doubt it is true for Germany, Austria or the Czech Republic.
    Doubt it is true for Holland.

    • For the record, in Poland 1920’s and 1930’s when classes were full and no sitting place was available the Jews had to stand up at the back.
      Getting beaten was acceptable and complaints were not even investigated.

      Show me one country in Europe where this is happening?

        • Gee, you make no sense.
          In France getting beaten is not acceptable regardless of the attacker nationality or religion.
          Had that been the case the Burka ban would never have passed.

          Can you please give me an example of such “approved” attack?

      • Perhaps it’s not an exact mapping on, Itsik, but the sense of threat is palpable and very similar. At present, the only people who have to do the equivalent of standing at the back (or in this case sitting on the floors) are Muslim females in lecture theatres in universities in the UK which have large Muslim student populations. The photo at the link is from Iran, but the mindset obtains in the UK too:

        photo/1

        But give it time, and if it continues as it is (and it probably will in the UK, not least because the police and government are jelly-spined in the face of it) universities will be more and more inclined towards judenrein, not least because of the sense of threat I mentioned above.

    • But of course that it is not true Itsik, today the situation is totally different. Never before 1933 in the UK Jewish institutions needed to have armed protection and Jews had to hide their Jewish identity on campuses, never were forced out from Swedish cities and never were threatened to make illegal their religious practices in Europe (apart from Norway).
      I suggest you to read these articles:
      http://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2013/08/you-only-live-twice/
      http://www.timesofisrael.com/fearful-of-anti-semitism-22-of-european-jews-hide-identity/

        • I do not want to belittle modern days fear and suffering of Jewish communities through out Europe but from stories of my grand parents and grand father the incidents nowadays dwarf in comparison.
          I can imagine My grand parents would describe what is happening now as an incovenience compare to their struggle had they been alive.

          • Just for the record they say the same thing about what the Palestinians going through.
            They probably say it is an inconvenience of their own making.

          • Then evertthing is good. Comparable to the Poland of 1920 the situation is much better. Not only good but excellent.

            • Tell me Peter, Do you see grey?

              If X does not equal 1 must it be 2 or can it be any other number?

              The answer to your first question Everything is not good and will never be good because good depends on other factors you set.

              My children and the children in the synagogue we attend are fine and do not require armed guards.

              They are not scared to have a sign in Hebrew in the main street and we have not been vandalised in the passed 10 years, probably hardly ever.
              Not one of the Israeli or Jewish people I know has been attacked or suffer an AntiSemitic attack to their property to the best of my knowledge.
              I can’t say the same about 1920’s Poland.

              I’m sure there are places where things are far worst and places where things are better.

              For example the Synagogue in Sirkin base was attacked:

              http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/politics-and-military/military/vandalism-in-synagogue-on-military-base-3033

              Is everything good in Israel?

              Haredi soldiers are being attacked by their own communities, where does it leave Israel?

              http://www.timesofisrael.com/religious-soldier-attacked-in-ultra-orthodox-neighborhood/

              Holocaust survivor being beaten for speaking out against loyters dmagaing a bench.

              http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4362228,00.html

              Should we leave in fear?
              Maybe arm ourselves and shoot first ask question later?
              What is your proposal Peter?
              Pack up and go cause some people were abused by swines on a train and the other passangers shitting their pants as well and were too scared to defend the abused?
              Create new shtetels?
              Name me a Pogrom in Western Europe since 1946?

              Fact is you don’t need to be Jewish to leave in fear anywhere in Europe these days.
              Any one can be a target. You see it every day in London and Paris.
              If you’re Jewish at least you have a safe refuge to flee too for now thanks to Israel.

              To answer your follow up statement:
              “Comparable to the Poland of 1920 the situation is much better.”
              That is correct.

    • I agree Itsik. While there has clearly been a rise in antisemitism in many countries in Europe (including the UK and especially France), and that rise is concerning and needs to be fought against, it is clearly a long way short of immediate pre-Nazi levels. I think that was a huge over-statement.

  6. “while abusing the only country in the region ”

    Again this being a site where exact words can lead to 3 or 4 articles proving distant points about bias..I have to say you cannot say “abusing ” without causing offence and I suspect that that is the intention. You know the term carries connotation of true horror and you are saying critics of a political system can be associated with this.

    The site cannot tackle a paper like the Guardian whilst it has supporters who see discussions in such terms . I get to object to a wall being built on ” disputed “land . I have no objection to the rest of the wall.

    • Oh grow up. You harp on and on and on about the sub-text to words used by individuals who are just posters below the line on an open blog as if some imagined offence justifies the carelessness, negligence or possibly deliberate bias of some journalists whom this site watches. You may have noticed, webby, that I claim to represent nobody but myself, and if you choose to be offended by my use of the word “abuse” in context, then that’s your problem.

      That does not excuse journalists, whose professional responsibility it is to properly research what they write and whose words have a far wider readership and impact than mine do, from failing in that duty.

    • That ‘disputed land’ happens to physically, morally and LEGALLY belong to the Jews. The Arabs are thieves and colonists that have stolen only 99.93% of the Middle East. They cannot stand that the Jews have the last 0.07%.

      The illegal Arab colonists should be deported.

      • ” the Arabs are thieves and colonists”

        Its maybe genetic. I wonder if it is possible to isolate the exact gene linking Arabs to thievery or whether the gene links them with all social and political evil not just thievery . It could help the Arabs to know this and try to do something about it. ” You Johnny Arab are a Tea Leaf ..accept it and move on.”

        Israel has a stunning scientific community the best in the ME . They should look into it.

        • Another fruitful line of enquiry, webbsite, would be the undue importance given in Muslim societies to lying (which is elevated to a nuanced art form and actually mandated in the koran and ahadith) and the effects it has on the perception of reality, particularly in the young.

          What do you think?

    • Stop smokescreening as if you have knowledge and intelligence Berchmans.

      And this site is doing a mighty find job of tackling the Guardian without being prated at by its exiled village idiot.

  7. The points the author wishes to make could have been made without excessive vocabulary such as “What did this woman want? More dead Jews?” or “The Jewish experience in Europe is starting to approach the level of anti-Semitism found there before the rise to power of the Nazi party in Germany”.

    And the reference to “nothing should stand in the way of the Palestinian freedom to kill and maim, least of all Jews” is simply repulsive.

    It is right to mock the mock wall at St. James – but not in such ugly and hateful fashion.

    • “What did this woman want? More dead Jews?” Take the security barrier down and that’s what you’d have, plus whole lot more dead Palestinians. The question was rhetorical and blunt, i.e., some cold water in the face. The other quote I’m in no position to judge from where I sit, but the trend is not looking good from here.

      Take a look at that propaganda stunt of a wall. That’s what’s ugly. How much did it cost these sanctimonious hypocrites to erect that giant slab of slander? Need more ugly? Check out some of the comments written on it.

    • Sorry, Pretz. I admire your take on the Middle East. I just don’t trust the people who demand of Israel what they don’t demand of others. The wall works, and until there is no need for it to work, it will continue working.

      As ugly as it may be, it is FAR from the worst thing out there.

  8. Rev Stephen Sizer posted the following link to his Facebook Wall http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/january/50-countries-where-hardest-to-be-christian-world-watch-list.html

    Not surprisingly , Israel does not feature in that 50 which comprise mainly of Muslim states most of which are either failed , fundamentalist , extremist or a combination of all three . It should be said that North Korea comes in at # 1

    The West Bank and Gaza come in at #34
    http://www.worldwatchmonitor.org/research/2925466

    What is interesting is that scrolling to 34 reveals that the primary source of Christian persecution emanates from Muslim extremists .

    Instead of maligning Israel , for 12 days the good Rector Winkett should have perhaps addressed the true causes of Christian suffering in the West Bank , Gaza and soecifically Bethlehem .

    H/T Rev Stephen Sizer

  9. St James and Rector Winkett have form in fact they have an ‘ology in anti Zionism very thinly disguised anti-Semitism. They allowed a swastika to be drawn on that wall as well as disgusting comments but when a friend wrote THIS WALL SAVES LIVES they allowed – perhaps connived in defacing it by writing over it THIS WALL ENSLAVES LIVES.

  10. To quote Richard Millet

    The biggest irony is that St James’s Church itself is protected by a security wall; a tall metal fence that contains a locked door. When the door is unlocked it is heavily guarded. Some may call this a checkpoint.

    St James’s Church is, understandably, protecting itself from anyone harbouring ill feeling towards it and who may be inclined to carry out an atrocity similar to those carried out against Churches in Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Nigeria and Egypt by militant Islamists.

    Israel is doing the same.

  11. To quote Edward on Richard Millet’s site.

    Edward | January 6, 2014 at 1:03 pm |

    Too many atrocities committed around the world are committed by your islamofascists.

    Islamofascists are at war with Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Bahais, gays, girls who have offended “family honor”, and the Wrong Kind of Muslim.

    Your heartless islamofascists shoot, stab, bomb, hijack, behead, poison, throw acid in the face of innocents all over the world.

    Nothing is safe from islamofascists. They brainwash their children to aspire to die trying to kill the other – with the reward of 72 virigins.

    Your so called “palestinians” ARE nazis. They do nazi salutes, they celebrate your fascists socialist hitler.

    Churches in the “Islamic Republic of Pakistan”, Nigeria and Egypt are bombed. Christians killed. Why does St. James side with the murderers of Christians?

  12. ” Your so called “palestinians” ARE nazis. ”

    Although I must go I will miss the carefully weighted arguments here where humanitarianism is part of the unwritten ethos and hotter heads are cooled by gentle persuasion.Maybe I should stay longer than I intended ?

    • “Maybe I should stay longer than I intended ?”

      Maybe you should. Although on reflection your contributions to this site have been as useful, and welcome, as a fart in a spacesuit.

      By the way, why did you choose the moniker ‘Berchmans’ ?
      For those who are unaware St. John Berchmans was a Jesuit priest from Belgium, clearly you are as open-minded as Jesuits particularly a couple of hundred years ago. And he is the patron saint of ‘altar servers’, no comment on that from me, I’ll leave it to others to draw their own conclusions.

    • Please assure us that you will never return. We certainly have done nothing to deserve an infestation like you

      • My God its all coming back to me how could I have forgotten? Its you ST.. the lady ..right good grief I wondered what it was Peter was gargling on about and I see what he means. He leapt to your defence..how honourable when of course I thought you were a guy in a blundering mistake.

        Bonking ..of course its all becoming clear. Peter is not a complete raving loony..just a slight raving loony. Im sorry I thought you would guess that I meant “mentally destroy”from the rest of my posts I apologise if you thought it was sexual how stupid of me I must have been drunk, its happened twice.

        So out of 10 thousand posts thats 2 I got wrong. Any others ? I apologise as I say and especially because I cant remember why I had a go at you ..you posted something that really pissed me off and I cant remember what it was .Can you?

      • “We certainly have done nothing to deserve an infestation like you”

        Its off topic and I am going to be a good boy in my last few weeks but this site has been responsible for implying hatred in my posts, quoting me out of context and ignoring the thousands of appeals I have made for peace. I was irked into coming here.Having said that I am perplexed and wrong footed by the fact that I get to post here.

        The use of animalisms especially relating to forms of life even lower than people from Motherwell cannot be acceptable can it ?. I thought we learned from the Lady Nazis films that depicting humans as a kind of swarm is not helpful hence if to wish to communicate further please dont use words like ” infestation.”

        • Berchmans I find it interesting that you find some forms of life lower than others, e.g. “..forms of life even lower than..”.

          As you claim to be a Socialist how do you reconcile that viewpoint with Socialist principles?

          • Its called having a sense of humour at laughing at yourself. It is a way to defuse attack.

            The way some here do it is to call a poster with a different point of view an “anti semite” and if that doesnt work call him an “anti semite” !:) Its the way I tell them…youre going to miss me.

            • “Its called having a sense of humour at laughing at yourself”

              Aaah Berchmans you have a sense of humour.

              Is that why you used to include, alongside your posts on CiF, a photo of that funny looking fellow, (You remember the one who looked like a cross between a retard and a badly molested weasel,) to demonstrate your sense of humour?

              • “You remember the one who looked like a cross between a retard ”

                Your language is embarrassingly discriminatory I dont know why I m surprised.

                “a badly molested weasel,)”

                ..followed by animalism . Posters on this site are trying to take on one of the best known Brit papers but Loyalist Guardinistas can rest assured that they are not trying very hard ! :)

                • “Your language is embarrassingly discriminatory”
                  How so?

                  To describe something as what it is, is not discriminatory just a statement of fact or opinion. If I’d written that I don’t like the person because they look like a retard that would be discriminatory.

                  Or do you fail to understand the difference?

                  Tip of the day Berchmans… your lack of understanding of the English language is very embarrassing. A poor reflection on the education system that attempted, and clearly failed, to educate you.

                  You take care now.

                • ..they look like a retard that would be discriminatory.”

                  You are at it again . This is nt about how you feel …it is your idiotic language you oaf. You do not discriminate against people with learning issues.

                  And kindly do not pretend you have any idea about Anti discriminatory practice… it is a university discipline .. just being a bigot isnt enough to keep you right .

                • Berchmans your intemperate ‘reply’ is a clear indication of your poor education.

                  You take care, or better still take your medication.

                • Gerald

                  ” better still take your medication.”

                  Now you are having a go at people who take medication. You shown your dicriminations every single post.

                  Your problem is you are trying to insult which is fine ..but you dont do faint praise or understatement ..which I can only guess is not taught in debate classes in the US or wherever you disappointed your parents! :)

    • I know you say you are going, Berchmans, but can you address the question in the final sentence in the comment to which you replied?

      Why, apart from an unhealthy mixture of antisemitism and ignorance, do you think that St James attacks the one state in the Middle East where Christians are not under threat? Take your time and answer.

      And then get you gone, and feel free to stay away

      • Thanks Silver, but as you know that is something of a Berchamans hallmark. Someone asks him a question to which he doesn’t have an answer, so he deflects or takes imaginary offence at the perfectly normal use of a word.

  13. That Palestinian terrorism whitewashing reminds me of the Shining Path whitewashing in Peru. For many years, the Shining Path commit horrendous terrorist actions against Peruvian people and government. Yet, many years later, there are those group that claim the Shining Path conducted a noble, courageous “people’s war”, conducted with a clear disadvantage over the Government. For many reasons, the don’t want to talk about the murder of innocent people, their fanatical, thanatophiliac ideology or its overall body count. Many “progressive” people, unfortunately, are drinking that rancid kool-aid.

  14. What about the persecution of Christians in Israel? Now tell me Labenal what do you think about George Habbash? He was a Christian thrown out of his country by those who gained independence on his land. May be George’s predessorsrs some 2000 years ago chucked out those who owned the land than but it is not George’s fault what his grand dad did 2000 years ago or is it?

    • Perhaps ‘Jim’ you would be good enough to give more detail about the individual you are writing about.

      I am sure you would not want a Christian confused with the late and very unlamented leader of a bunch of terrorist scum (PFLP) because they have a similar name.

      So who exactly are you referring to?

    • There is absolutely no persecution of Christians in Israel – none whatsoever.

      As for George Habbash – the terrorist that founded the PLFP, his family left on their own accord – he wasn’t ‘thrown out of his country’. Like most of the Arabs that fled – they did so without even seeing a single Jew because the Arab Higher Command told them that they would get to loot all the Jewish homes after their victory.

      Siding with the enemy during independence is a messy business. After the American Revolution – over 10% of the Americans were expelled for supporting the British Crown – all their property and homes were taken away and none were ever allowed back. That is the price for treason.

    • What about the persecution of Christians in Israel? You mean the only christian population who grow up and dosen;t have to escape their home like they do in all arab countries in the Middle East?
      Habbash? You could call George Habash, a Palestinian leader who died in Amman on Saturday at the age of 82, the godfather of Middle East terrorism.

      Habash’s group, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), pioneered the hijacking of airplanes as a Middle East terror tactic — one eventually employed by the al-Qaeda hijackers on 9/11 — way back in 1968 when three PFLP armed operatives commandeered an Israeli El Al airliner enroute from Rome to Tel Aviv. Checking in for a flight has never been the same since.

      Many PFLP operations remain etched into history as some of the most infamous acts of terrorism. In 1970, PFLP terrorists hijacked four airliners at one time, flew three of them to Jordan, blew them up, and triggered the Black September civil war between Jordan’s Hashemite monarchy and Palestinian guerrillas. In 1972, Japanese Red Army terrorists working with the PFLP massacred 24 people at Israel’s Lod International Airport (now called Ben Gurion International Airport).

      In 1976, the PFLP’s last hijacking ended in the daring rescue by Israeli counter-terrorism commandos in Entebbe, Uganda

    • ” this the wall defends the Arab world from Israel. ”

      Good call. That is like Obama when he was inaugurated . He was surrounded by bullet proof glass? Crazy and racist…just because he is black doesnt mean he is automatically going to shoot someone.

        • ” favour ”

          Again with the American spelling. You are secure here you dont have to keep trying to ingratiate yourself .You can show a tiny bit of individuality if indeed you possess any and still post.

          • “You are secure here you dont have to keep trying to ingratiate yourself .You can show a tiny bit of individuality if indeed you possess any and still post.”

            Berchmans I doubt if you have read pretzelberg’s posts, or if you have you have failed to understand them.
            I have had many differences with pretzelberg, but to suggest that he tries to ingratiate himself or lacks individuality is a gross distortion.

            It provides further evidence, if any were needed, that you either do not read the posts ‘above and below the line’ or are incapable of understanding them.

            Remind me again why you were kicked off CiF?

  15. Fritz do you think the reservations in the US were designed to protect the natives and I suppose you will argue the concentration camps were designed to protect the European Jews and that the wall is protecting the Palestinians than how all those being protected have turned out be the main victims in each case.

    • Well, the reservations Israel build for the Arab world beyond the wall should give the natives in that world some confidence, the “concentration camps” called Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Marocco, Kuwait, Saud-Arabia, Somalia, Yemen etc. are very promising places of protection for Palestinians, I presume.

  16. Website: “this site has been responsible for implying hatred in my posts”.

    I wouldn’t say it is implied, its a site where people are free to come out and say they think you are offensive because your wilful ignorance against the malicious libels circulating against ‘Zionist’ criminality – helps to promote a long-standing and until fairly recently – dormant animosity in Europe towards the Jewish people or Jewish projects.

    You do also generate some debate about whether you are – at worst, an unreconstructed Jew-baiter (chip off the old grandparents’ block), or at best, a defender of other Jew-baiters (Hamas charter and all that), and whether your views represent a growing malaise in Europe’s moral and intellectual health, with its populist scapegoating of the ‘bad’ Jew – masquerading under the guise of universal humanitarianism, or whether your egotistical moral posturing – like a shallow fashion statement, is just a pathetic cry for attention.

    One thing most of us will probably agree with you on though, regardless of our political differences, is that Motherwell is indeed a shit hole.

    • Well said.
      But what he writes points to an old antisemitic stereotype, slightly alterated:
      Not he is responsible that Antisemitism is implied in what he posts, but the Jews who manage the website. A classical inversion.
      http://cifwatch.com/2014/01/07/indys-wild-claim-that-israel-tortures-palestinian-kids-continues-to-unravel/comment-page-1/#comment-150860
      “They are the ones who are not complying with the UN nor world opinion. They have a few million extremist Israelis and the US and thats it. ”
      http://cifwatch.com/2013/12/29/the-guardian-whitewashes-antisemitism-of-nicolas-anelka-pal-dieudonne/comment-page-1/#comment-149477
      “Such simplistic sarcasm seems to attach itself to many discussions of Jews or Israel . It tries to attribute lunacy to any attempt at balance. Jews do control some of the media , some banks and some lives and to hide behind hyperbole is weak and looks as though the poster is unable to address these issues in a sober manner.

      “Not forgetting of course the Protocole of the elder of Zion ”

      How could we forget it ? Every thread some extremist Zionist will bring it up in mock irony as if this is what motivates an opponents arguments.”

    • “Jew baiter ..chip off the old grandparents’ block),”

      Nearly right.Both grandfathers fought in the war but the other side.The good side…the one that helped save the Jews. Both grandfathers came from countries with absolutely no historical anti semitism .Ireland and Scotland.

      You are so predictable good grief. How many nobels for a tiny country?

        • Never heard of it thanks for pointing this out. In that case Scotland is the only country that has no historical anti semitism..

        • Anti-Semitism exists in all European countries and in individuals in most parts of the world. While Website’s statement that there is no historical ant-semitism in Ireland and Scotland is not exactly true, relatively speaking the sort of violent and homicidal anti-semitic acts that have occurred in many other European nations didn’t take hold in either Ireland or Scotland. That said, anti-Semtic attitudes can certainly be found in unfortunate numbers amongst both populations.

          • Precisely Terry. I have de-bunked this myth of Scotland as a anti-semite free paradise on a previous thread. Webby ignored that then, and clearly has not taken it in at all as he repeats it here.

      • “the one that helped save the Jews”

        I was under the impression that during WWII the vast majority of Jews in Europe were murdered. Perhaps I’ve been reading the wrong history books.

        • I dont get this. You have asked me not to include you in my posts. You are like a college girl at her first prom..

          .should I dance hes so handsome but hes got such a bad reputation…oh God my beam end looks huge in the mirror.

          .if you want to chat its fine but make your mind up.

      • fought in in the war …….. the ones that helped save the jews?

        Next you will say that the only reason they joined the war was to help Jews.

  17. “politically not my man, but anyway”

    When Kennedy died the percentage who said they voted for him was much larger than those who actually did . With Sharon it might not be the same . However as you say …”anyway”.

    .

  18. Todays news that former Labour leaders are being reinvestigated over Iraq is excellent. This site should welcome such news as evidence that the Brits get an easy ride in the Guardian compared to the Israelis when planning to kill Muslims.The lack of criticism of Lybia was as bad …but Syria was the most truly awful example of the Guardian supporting another war that frees crazy Islamists .

    Yet Israel cannot respond to rockets without the Guardian trumpeting it.

    My guess is tho that the opposite will happen. Sadly the ability of the IDF to hide their romps in the shadow of our far more widespread and long term destruction in Iraq, means few here will want the Brits to stop .

    • What has the British war crimes to do with Israel? when planning to kill Muslims? So Israeli just out of boredom say hey let kill some peacefull muslim today. ? Israel don;t need to hide anything.

    • “The lack of criticism of Lybia”
      WHERE?

      For someone quick to criticise others for using American spelling, perhaps you should turn your ‘high-powered intellect’ (sarcasm intended) towards your own shortcoming in the English language.

      Tip for the day Berchmans….. don’t start examining all your shortcomings it would take you far too long.

      • “The lack of criticism of Libya?”WHERE?”

        I mean in the Guardian editorials.They were like scripts for the B movie ” Beau Geste fights Gaddafi” and now the extremists are in control after country wide destruction and thousands slaughtered. Scratch a Brit and there a maniacal empire builder there eh ?.

        Yet the IDF only has to reduce a small house to total rubble after a missile was launched and the Guardian suddenly discovers a pacifist streak…one guaranteed to confuse those who see Islamic terror gaining ground in every country we soften up first ….with the Guardian’s support.

        • “Scratch a Brit and there a maniacal empire builder there eh ?.”

          Berchmans can you translate your ‘sentence’ into coherent English?

          Or is my request further evidence that I am discriminating against people like YOU who are clearly educationally challenged and incapable of expressing a coherent and logical thought?

Comments are closed.