Peace through martyrdom: Muslim Brotherhood leader poses as a liberal at ‘Comment is Free’


‘Comment is Free’ published an essay today (Aug. 21) by Muhammad Al-Baltaji, “deputy secretary-general of the Muslim Brotherhood bloc in the Egyptian parliament”, titled ‘The Muslim Brotherhood will not turn to violence to fight the coup in Egypt‘.  

cif profile

Al-Baltaji used his Guardian platform to blast the military government of General Abdel Fattah el-Sisi for “pushing the country to an unprecedented level of chaos and state violence”, in contrast to what he portrays as the Brotherhood’s progressive, pro-democratic non-violent Egyptian revolution.

Here are excerpts from his piece:

The Muslim Brotherhood is committed to peaceful protests and has pledged never to resort to violence in response to the violence perpetrated against it by the coup authorities.

I address world conscience and public opinion. I appeal to world humanitarian and human rights organisations. I appeal to the international delegations that came to see us in Rabaa and who testified that we were completely peaceful, to stand for democracy and expose these war crimes.

The sacrifices made so far by the defenders of legitimacy have been made in order to put an end to the military rule that humiliated the Egyptians and persecuted them for more than 60 years. We made these sacrifices in order for Egypt to become a true democratic civil state in which human dignity is sanctified and human rights respected.

Whilst Muslim Brotherhood-led attacks on Egypt’s Christians, and the burning of churches, since the July coup alone makes a mockery of such claims, it’s interesting to note that back in 2010, as one of two members of Egypt’s delegation to the Gaza flotilla, Al-Baltaji was singing a different tune concerning peace, justice and the dignity of man.

Per MEMRI:

Al-Baltaji…said at a March 2010 conference, “A nation that excels at dying will be blessed by Allah with a life of dignity and with eternal paradise.” He also said that his movement “will never recognize Israel and will never abandon the resistance,” and that “resistance is the only road map that can save Jerusalem, restore the Arab honor, and prevent Palestine from becoming a second Andalusia.

(Andalusia is of course Spain. Islamists believe that Palestine, or any land that was once part of the caliphate, can not ‘fall’ to infidels.)

Moreover, Al-Baltaji’s exaltation of the values of death and martyrdom demonstrate that, as with so many Islamist extremists, he cynically used his forum at ‘Comment is Free’ to run interference for the true goals of his movement – jihad as a means to religious tyranny. Here’s the protagonist of Al-Baltaji’s Guardian tale, former President Mohamed Morsi, explaining quite clearly the values of the movement:

 

‘Comment is Free': continuing in its passionate mission to become the demopath’s platform of choice. 

158 comments on “Peace through martyrdom: Muslim Brotherhood leader poses as a liberal at ‘Comment is Free’

  1. Interested by the use of the word demopathy, presumably meant (wrongly) to indicate a suffering or disease of democracy, whereas it correctly means a suffering or disease of the people (demos), though the word – like anti-Semite – is yet another invention, apparently by someone called Jorge Banner is 2009. Not seen before then, I believe? It undermines the message you are trying to convey when you use invented or illiterate compound words, in my humble opinion. There are other simpler words that will suffice in place of artificially invented ones.

        • Peter is off on another of his flights of fantasy. As far as Syria is concerned, I am pleased he is so clear about what is going on there as all the resources of the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office, as well as all the resources of the US State Department are seemingly way behind him in his heightened understanding.
          Peter truly is a remarkable individual, it has to be said.

          • John did you have the time to count the number of Arab government officials in Israel? No? Of course not. Facing with your own ignorance and lies must be avoided at any price in “anti-Zionist” circles…

              • Have you ever heard the word “evasion”?
                And now I repeat my question: id you have the time to count the number of Arab government officials in Israel?
                But don’t worry I don’t really expect an answer from a lying Jew-hater facing his own shit.

                • “…lying Jew-hater facing his own shit.
                  Fortunately for him, though, Peter, he’ll soon have the benefit of Veolia taking care of any waste(or, ahem, excreta) in Brent. They’ll do so superbly! One outstanding issue however is whether they can be tasked with detoxifying his brain. But that’s a job even Veolia couldn’t handle, I fear.

      • Adam: I read the linked text. I am still not convinced by this artificial new word.
        I think words like disingenuous or just plain liar – if that is what you truly think he is – would be more appropriate. Trying to use fancy new invented words does not do your cause any good, in my humble opinion.
        Call a shovel a shovel is still a good piece of advice.

      • I heartily recommend the link (provided by Adam on the meaning of the term “demopath”). It is extremely well written and clearly argued.

        As for Jasper’s point below about Guardian coverage in the last week, Glenn Greenwald (whose partner has been at the centre of this storm) is a prime example of the demopath as described by Augean Stables. He puts his own self-righteous anti-Westernism above all other considerations, including the security of the democratic countries in which he operates (he lives in the US and writes for a British publication) which allow him the very freedom to express those anti-Western views.

        • Sorry to be pedantic but that subversive, terror-friendly hack Glenn Greenwald, who has the gall to call himself a journalist, lives in Brazil, not the US.

    • There are other simpler words that will suffice in place of artificially invented ones…

      There’s always, John, your favourite tactic: Lie, and then lie some more.
      How are those Supreme Court rulings Israel is supposedly violating, coming along?

        • So you’ve fully embraced the first part of my response: You continue to lie unabashedly.
          Tell me John, is it standard PSC MO, or are you ad-libbing here?

    • John Dowdle
      AUGUST 20, 2013 @ 9:32 PM
      I am signing-off on this blog

      to which I responded:

      Hahahahaha! Suuuuuuuuuuuuuure you are… until you’re back with another nick. Your ilk just can’t stay away.

      So it turns out I was wrong–he didn’t bother with a new nick.

      Nevertheless, he was back in under half a day. They’re so predictable.

      • John couldn’t resist the temptation to post something totally unrelated to the subject of the article – the laughable lies of his clerical fascist pals ant their support by the “world leading liberal voice”.

        • So John compains that the use, in a reasonable context, of an unusual, relatively recently coined word, is “illiterate”. Oh the irony.

          On a more serious note, it is notable that his only criticism of this article is on the use of a word of which he doesn’t approve. Presumably, that is the most serious flaw he sees with the article, which is a good sign. At least he doesn’t attempt to justify the appalling double-speak (oh dear, is that another “illiterate” compound word you disapprove of, dear John?) of the MB.

    • John: “though the word – like anti-Semite – is yet another invention”

      Says it all John. Jew-hatred is just a figment of your European imagination, absolving 2,000 years of racist persecution and murder, and now providing a smoke-screen for sanctimonious ‘progressives’ who convince themselves that Israel being full of Jews is coincidental to their obsessive hatred of ‘Zionism’.

      • Jew hatred is no figment of anyone’s imagination, certainly not yours. It is what happened for thousands of years and is completely condemned by me. People consuming the Judaic religion were made scapegoats by medieval and later rulers to divert their subjects’ attention away from the failings of the rulers. The old divide and rule tactic. Factually, Israel is not full of Jews; around one-quarter of the population do not consume Judaic religion – and that is without including non-religious Jews.
        Zionism has been a completely religionist philosophy from day one. It is tempting to equate it with racism but that does not apply as Judaism is a religion and not a race, as the current Miss Israel proves.

        • JD – as a retired “educationist” you really do need to work on your comprehension skills.

          1. Groovy was NOT saying that Jew hatred is a figment of the imagination. He was implying that that was YOUR position.

          2. You really ought to be aware that the colloquial phrase “A is full of B” is not to be taken literally. Go at once to the remedial class.

          3. Your allegation that “Zionism has been a completely religionist philisophy” is supposed to be what? An allegation that it is racist? Zionism = racism? That old chestnut that was debunked even in the anti-Israel obsessed UN?

          4. “Judaism is a religion not a race…” Well thanks. Next time I want you to define who I am, I’ll ask. Arrogant prick.

          5. “…as the current Miss Israel proves.” This is the piece de resistance. Miss ISRAEL – i.e. can be anyone from Israel, whether Jewish, Muslim, Christian, atheist, Bahai… The fact that Miss Israel is not Jewish is evidence of Israel’s openness, tolerance, fairness and liberal nature. It says precisely NOTHING about whether Jews are a people, a nation, a religion or a race.

          Overall – F. Don’t bother to re-sit the exam, there is no hope for you.

          • Let me help you:-
            1. Groovy’s statement included ‘Jew-hatred is just a figment of your European imagination’. If it was just my imagination then it would have been correct to make the statement ‘Jew-hatred is just a figment of your imagination’. By adding the word ‘European’, Groovy was extending the category to include everyone living in Europe, some 500 million or so at present calculations.
            2. I did not use the phrase ‘A is full of B’. Groovy used the phrase ‘Israel being full of Jews’ in his comment above – go check it out. I responded to his phrase, not ‘A is full of B’.
            3. As often happens with people commenting here, you have managed to completely reverse the meaning of what I said. I repeat: Judaism is not a race, it is a religion. Zionism is also not a race but an ideology. Therefore, neither Judaism nor Zionism have any relevance to racism, as both are primarily based upon religionism and not racism, though the effects may sometimes be difficult to differentiate.
            4. See 3. above.
            5. Miss Israel IS Jewish, in the sense that she consumes the Judaic religion and lives in Israel. Why do you suppose she is not Jewish, I wonder?
            Finally, you managed to flunk all the questions. You gained 0% score.
            “You must try better in future” is an absolute understatement.

            • Oh ffs. Are you for real? Your reply misses every single point so far it’s almost comical.

              I do have to apologise for one thing though (I am not afraid to admit it when I get something wrong). I vaguely knew that this year’s Miss Israel was unusual, but not being that interested in beauty pageants, I hadn’t remembered why. I had assumed from the context in which you raised it that she was not Jewish. Having now looked it up, I see that she is indeed Jewish, and that the novel fact is that she is black. It should be pointed out, however, that Rana Raslan, an Israeli Arab who described herself as a “secular Muslim” (it’s hard to imagine a religious Muslim, any more than a religious Jew entering a contest which expects contestants to reveal their flesh), won the title in 1999, so my point stands. You certainly don’t have to be Jewish to be Miss Israel – the contest has NOTHING to do with religion.

              • It is good when you acknowledge your mistakes, as it is part of the process of truly learning, unlike some of the others who waffle rubbish on this web site thread.

              • Do you understand what the “educationalist” who likes to twist others’ words means when he writes “consume Judaic religion”? My first assumption was that he meant “are practicing Jews” but that doesn’t quite fit each context in which he used it.

                P.S. I find it very amusing that someone who was earlier criticizing a neologism has nevertheless produced a very bizarre and… let us say unique… phrase of his own.

                • I use the term ‘consume’ in the same way as an economist does. We all consume different types of products. In the case of religionists, they consume religion, along with other products, i.e. goods and services.

        • Not to ‘double-book’ Labenal’s excellent reply to your — as usual — revolting diatribe, but just to correct one misconception of yours(Oh, I know, where-oh-where to begin!):
          The Jews, are a people — an ethnicity, that shares Culture, Language, history, a Religion and above all, a common ancestor and origin(including extensive genetic similarities).
          This places them as an ethnically endogamous group far more united and trussed than say — oh, the Arabs!
          According to the Arab league, an Arab is anyone:

          [An Arab is] [A] person whose language is Arabic, who lives in an Arabic-speaking country, and who is in sympathy with the aspirations of the Arabic-speaking people.

          I speak Arabic, and reside in Israel(“Arabic speaking country”; Arabic is an official language). Does that make me an Arab?! I bet there are hundreds(if not thousands) of (real) Arabs who would object to applying that attribute to me!
          So John — maligning the Jews, directly, sans any mask or cover. And where’s the fun in that? Do you enjoy being an anti-Semite, or this the product of PSC mind-poisoning?

          • Judaism is a religion and not a race. There is no ethnic basis for people who consume the Judaic religion. Again, look at the current Miss Israel, who is resident in Israel, consumes the Judaic religion and is an Ethiopian immigrant.
            She is an Israeli woman and Jewish – unless you contest that fact?
            What you say about Arabs means that they – like Jews and Christians – are people divided by a common religion, not by a common ethnic stock of any kind.
            How does what I say malign anyone in any way? It is merely descriptive. All religionists share common characteristics, regardless of the religions they consume.
            Describing all religionists as being similar does not make me anti- any of them and – as you know – I reject use of the term anti-Semite as it is meaningless.

            • You, disgusting creature that you are, don’t get to define Judaism. I know you think you can, out of your immensely self-inflated ego, but the fact is that you’re an insignificant blot on the Jewish people’s 4-millennial history.
              The fact is, the Jews ARE an ethnicity, just like Arabs(who are of the Arabian peninsula, as their name would suggest). This has nothing to do with Religion, you idiot.
              Have a look at this article:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

              In most Jewish populations, these male line ancestors appear to have been mainly Middle Eastern. For example, Ashkenazi Jews share more common paternal lineages with other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than with non-Jewish populations in areas where Jews lived in Eastern Europe, Germany and the French Rhine Valley. This is consistent with Jewish traditions in placing most Jewish paternal origins in the region of the Middle East.

              And:

              Both the extent and location of the maternal ancestral deme from which the Ashkenazi Jewry arose remain obscure. Here, using complete sequences of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), we show that close to one-half of Ashkenazi Jews, estimated at 8,000,000 people, can be traced back to only four women carrying distinct mtDNAs that are virtually absent in other populations, with the important exception of low frequencies among non-Ashkenazi Jews. We conclude that four founding mtDNAs, likely of Near Eastern ancestry, underwent major expansion(s) in Europe within the past millennium.

              By deciding, ipso facto what Jews may or may not constitute you transform yourself(although such action, in your case, being truly redundant) into a true anti-Semitism. You may object to whatever you wish. But you can’t change dictionary entries: YOU hate Jews. Plain and simple.

              • So you belong to the same ethnic group as Miss Israel? That fits in with your statement which includes ‘likely of Near Eastern ancestry’, I suppose.
                The supposedly genotypical ancestry claimed makes no sense at all, with the common ancestry of Ashkenazis being linked to the converted Kazaks tribespeople
                Recent archaeological research severely undermines almost all the claims made by the Israel state and the myth of the Jewish exodus – as I am sure you will know.

                • Ah, propagator of the “Khazar”(don’t you remember not to talk about things you don’t(to put it mildly) understand) myth, huh?(Like I said, an perfunctory anti-Semite). The “Khazar” canard against Jews has long been discredited. (For a very recent rebuttal, see here).
                  “.. with the common ancestry of Ashkenazis being linked to the converted Kazaks tribespeople” Did you not read the links I provided? can you even read?
                  “…Recent archaeological research severely undermines”? What findings? “Undermines” what, exactly?
                  I tell you what no archaeological investigation will ever discover: The trace of any Palestinians — an Arab phenomenon, after all.

                • To Commentary101, Jeff, Peter, Labenal, Gerald (and probably a few others I’ve forgotten):

                  Do you think JD truly believes the stuff he posts (and his bizarre and inconsistent “logic”) or do you think he’s just a wind-up merchant?

                  I find it hard to believe someone (who can, after all, string a sentence together, albeit rather idiosyncratically) is truly that devoid of basic discussion skills and reading comprehension.

                  Or maybe he truly IS a hater whose logic is pretzeled by his hate.

                • “To Commentary101, Jeff, Peter, Labenal, Gerald (and probably a few others I’ve forgotten):

                  Do you think JD truly believes the stuff he posts (and his bizarre and inconsistent “logic”) or do you think he’s just a wind-up merchant?”

                  cba, Dowdle is an anti-Semite.
                  Not just because of the garbage he posts here and on BBC Watch, but also because of his reprehensible comments in his local paper the ‘Watford Observer’ about the Jewish community.

                • I believe, cba, from what I’ve read of him, and here I’m in complete agreement with Peter, that we’re dealing with a pathological, perhaps even diseased individual(motivated by his gory, squandered life).
                  I think his comments have hinted, that he had sought the PSC’s noxious company due to a deep-seated loneliness(and societal eschewing) and for the sake of this hellish companionship he absorbed — like a loyal lap-dog — all the malice they’ve plied on him against Israel & Jews.
                  To him, it’s the essence of his existence: a veritable raison d’etre. Why would he stop and think?
                  It’s all due to the PSC operating like a cult. Its members feel divine attachment to their Masters, deprived of any introspection.
                  No, here we’re dealing with a “true believer” — following the Guru, for all its worth. Frustrated, though. He sees the failure of his “cause”, his activities all amount to naught. So he comes here and spills his baleful self.

                • Really entertaining stuff! Do all please keep this standard up. It just keeps on getting better…….

                • his reprehensible comments in his local paper the ‘Watford Observer’ about the Jewish community

                  Gerald, I see you are absolutely correct about our latest nasty little Jew-hater.

                • I’ve just read his effluvia at the Watford Observer.
                  It’s truly sickening. It’s really Nazi-like, zoological anti-Semitism. Gerald, thank you for appraising us of this. I hope Adam is paying attention, and will send our “good friend” here, to fraternize with Mosley’s successors, where he belongs.

                • cba,

                  I hope I’m putting this response in the right place.
                  Yes I do think he’s an anti-Semite. I think C-101 was spot on as usual and Gerald seems to have the dirt on him.
                  Not just a windup merchant, but that too.

                • Professor Bernard Lewis a British-American historian . Said
                  This theory, first put forward by an Austrian anthropologist in the early years of this century, is supported by no evidence whatsoever. It has long since been abandoned by all serious scholars in the field, including those in Arab countries, where Khazar theory is little used except in occasional political polemics

              • Reading Gerald’s post mentioning Johnny and the Watford Observer I googled the subject and found the following post of him on an article reporting a water pump station malfunction in the West-Hyde area:

                I am sorry that residents in the West Hyde area have been subjected to this kind of unfortunate incident. We are in regular contact with people in the Salfeet area of the West Bank of Palestine, where this kind of activity is a daily event for them.
                Illegal Israeli settlements are usually located on higher locations, from where untreated waste is dumped down into the lower valleys where most of the local Palestinians live. As a result, water, land, crops and animals are all subjected to toxic pollution effects. Deaths from cancers and similar malign conditions have become an all too familiar pattern there.
                I hope Thames Water will now get a grip on the situation and ensure that it never happens again. Please also spare a thought for the innocent Palestinian victims who are exposed to this kind of environmental vandalism on a daily basis.
                John Dowdle
                Chair
                Watford Friends of Salfeet, Occupied Palestine

                What can be said? It speaks for itself. Connecting a water pump malfunction in the West-Hyde area of the UK to the Jews. Where did I see the accusations that Jews are poisoning the wells? Jewish waste causes cancer and other malignant conditions among the Palestinian population. You couldn’t make it up…
                John you need urgent medical help, your obsession with the Jews really hit the pathological level. I challenge you to come to Salfeet and clean the waste up with your tongue, you must bring your comrades from the UK with you to perform this Herculean job..
                BTW Salfeet is governed by the PA under the Interim Agreement and they should have solved any untreated waste problems with the moneys given by the EU and the US. Naturally accusing Jews is much more easy and popular option, it pulls the John Dowdle kind of humanists like shit (sorry untreated waste) the flies.

                • Oh this is nothing, yet, Peter.
                  Notice with what bile he objects to “Eruv”, a Jewish(nothing to do with Israel) custom; spoken like a true fascist, it’s amazing(you don’t meet those, very often):

                  http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/10618641.Jewish_eruv_approval__Residents__very_saddened_but_not_surprised_/

                  This eruv development – fuelled by religious extremism and moneymaking[!!!!] – is but a carbon copy of the problems faced in attempting to secure peace in the Middle East, in particular attempts to resolve outstanding issues between the Israelis and Palestinians.

                  Paging Adam Levick….

                • You are correct Commentary. This specimen is the textbook example of the well known classic obsessive antisemite masquerading a a human rights warrior.

            • I repeat – who the fuck do you think you are to define what is, and what is not, a Jew. You arrogant prick.

              • He thinks that as a humanist he has the right to determine Jewishness. Jews have no right of self-determination in humanistic circles.

                • I believe “Dowdle” would indicate Irish ancestry — that also helps to explain your acerbity toward Jews.
                  More importantly, since you’re so eager to despatch Peter, let me ask you then:
                  Are your bags all packed to Limerick?

                • Get back to Pest – it suits you.
                  Johnny the anti racist speaks. Obviously you know nothing about Budapest and nothing about me so I consider this pearl of yours a racist slur.
                  BTW Johnny make my day, you are kindly invited to come here and try to send me back. Such a trip would be much more illuminating and exciting for you than the collective spiritual masturbation with your humanist Jew-hating pals and with your UAF fascists thugs.

        • Factually, Israel is not full of Jews; around one-quarter of the population do not consume Judaic religion – and that is without including non-religious Jews?

          YOu do know that all Jews are just that ,Jews. They don;t have to paractice religion. Majority of Israelis don;t partctice religion dose that mean that they are not Jews. I don;t practice relgiion does that mean I am not a jew?

        • John, your point is that you as a European you are entitled in your imperial wisdom to define the nationality / identity of a people that European culture has rejected and demonised for over 1000 years – that is your tradition and it serves your political purpose of negating that people’s right to statehood. (and any other right that European’s feel Jews are NOT entitled to).

          As for the the rebuttal to the ‘Israel full of Jews’ comment. Yes indeed it is. You only confirm it with your statistics and expose the dishonesty of answer because you deliberately fail to address the real point, which is why it would be that the only democratic, pluralistic state that has a majority of Jews in it should be the focus of your animosity.

          And: “Zionism has been a completely religionist philosophy from day one”. A combination of arrogance and ignorance, but then, as you have defined what Jews constitute in terms of people hood – a contemptible nothingness in your opinion, it must therefore follow that Zionism cannot possibly be a national liberation movement despite the secular nature of Israel’s founding constitution. Your humanist and intellectual credentials end right there.

          And as for the beautiful Miss Israel, just picture her the next time your visceral hatred of Israel conjures up the racist / apartheid libel in that progressive mind of yours.

    • “though the word – like anti-Semite – is yet another invention”?

      Really? and Jews are not really Jews if we are to belive you.

  2. “Andalusia is of course Spain”

    Do you know what would have been nice? If you had noted that when the Jews were thrown out of Spain they were given shelter. You cannot say this as you need to maintain the frothing -Muslim- Jew -hating narrative.

    As to the article there are a thousand dead Muslims. A single word concerning the fact that a democratically elected government has been brutally overthrown would have given your writing a hint of objectivity.

    The Guardian has over the past week been headline news…yesterday it was on every news station except Fox…once I saw it simultaneously on 3 new programmes. It will increase its influence immeasurably. You have got to up your game. Just throwing insults only works so far.

    This week so far Guardian 1 CIF Watch 0


    • “…You cannot say this as you need to maintain the frothing -Muslim- Jew -hating narrative…”

      Can I say this, Jasper?

      Jews and Christians living under early Muslim rule were considered dhimmis, a status that was later also extended to other non-Muslims like Hindus. They were allowed to “practice their religion, subject to certain conditions, and to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy” and guaranteed their personal safety and security of property, in return for paying tribute and acknowledging Muslim rule.

      Both Stillman and Lewis concur:

      Jizya and Kharaj were a crushing burden for the non-Muslim peasantry who eked out a bare living in a subsistence economy. Ultimately, the additional taxation on non-Muslims was a critical factor that drove many dhimmis to leave their religion and accept Islam.

      Read more about it, in Bernard Lewis’ “Jews of Islam”. Nothing in the “protection”(i.e. the period in between the pogroms instigated by the Muslims, from time to time) was gratuitous. Jews paid a poll tax, ahem, for BEING Jews.

        • You know, ripostes like Jasper’s always beg a very disconcerting question:
          Let’s assume — for a moment — that Muslims did in fact treat Jews better than their Christian counterparts. So what? Should the Jews bow down in everlasting gratitude to their Muslims hosts — for a minuscule(and expensive, vide s.) act of kindness? Should they therefore forgive and forget about the anti-Semitic Hadith, which commands every Muslim(if he be a true believer) to slay Jews ‘ere the Day of Judgement comes? Should they now, with an Al-Qaeda fatwa hanging over their heads, submit willingly to slaughter? Perhaps they should allow — in light of this erstwhile, historic “grace” — let Pal. suicide bombers ravage them, for auld lang syne?
          Can’t he(Jasper) see how ridiculous this is? Especially, when present Muslim doctrinaires see the Jews(coupled with the rabid anti-Semitism promoted in the Arab world) as the root of all evil incarnate.
          I fear this is yet another case of the Racism of low, Orientalist expectations.

          • Spot on, 101. You may also ask, if Jews are supposed to be perpetually grateful for some acts of relative kindness some 500 years ago, shouldn’t Muslims be just a little bit grateful for the fact that Israel is the only place in the Middle East where Muslims are free to worship as they choose, whether they are Sunni, Shia, Salafist or whatever? The only country in the Middle East where a free press allows them to speak out on issues that concern them without fear of persecution by a religious police?

            • Thanks, Labenal. And particularly on your last point: If Israel carries out acts sevenfold humaner, more munificent in their scope than anything, anyone else had ever displayed toward Jews(in the distant, very distant past), it”d be immediately labelled as “some-benevolent-act-by-Israel—washing”.

            • I find it hard to believe that Israel hosts Salafist organisations.
              Do you have any real evidence to support this claim?

              • Did I say anything about salafist “organisations”? I said “salafists”. And, to be totally honest, I have no idea at all if there are any “salafist organisations” in Israel. But the point remains – Israel is tolerant of Muslims of whatever religious stripe, and does not persecute people because they are the “wrong” sort of Muslim (on religious grounds – clearly it is not too keen on terrorists, whether Muslim or not) as is common in the Arab world.

                • As I suspected, you made a statement with checking the veracity of it beforehand.
                  You need to check your facts more carefully in future. You admit that you do not know whether or not Salafist organisations exist in Israel. I strongly suspect they would be banned as they are more extremist than the Muslim Brotherhood, allegedly.

                • “..you made a statement with checking the veracity of it beforehand.
                  You need to check your facts more carefully in future”

                  Quite right Dowdle.
                  Much the same as your claim on another thread about the UK and its breaches of European Convention rights.
                  I think Matron is looking for you, she wants to change you and wipe the drool off your chin before you settle down for the night with all the other residents.

                • Mr. Dowdle, aka Twister of Others’ Words, you might be interested in this little tid-bit.

                  So in the evil, hated Zionist Entity, Islamists are free to protest in Tel Aviv, and you better believe that not a single one of them fears any kind of violent reaction from Israeli security or police personnel.

                  http://www.israellycool.com/2013/08/15/sweet-irony-safer-to-be-an-islamist-in-tel-aviv-than-in-cairo/

                  Although I’m sure you’ll say it doesn’t count since it’s not (necessarily) a salafist “organization” (which Labenal never claimed anyway, not that that ever bothers you).

                  What Labenal actually said was, “…Israel is the only place in the Middle East where Muslims are free to worship as they choose, whether they are Sunni, Shia, Salafist or whatever? The only country in the Middle East where a free press allows them to speak out on issues that concern them without fear of persecution by a religious police”

                  Which is absolutely correct.

                • So now you too maintain that Salafists are free to worship is Israel – yes?
                  How many of their mosques and madrassas are there in Israel, then?

                • Tell me Dowdle is your antagonism towards Israel, Jewish people and those you think may have been to Public school and anyone else who has made a success of their lives driven by you being born illegitimate?

                  Why do I say illegitimate, because your Mother’s maiden name is also Dowdle, look on your Birth Certificate. And when you first started posting here the touching story of your Father, whose name or any other details you couldn’t remember, who mysteriously vanished during WWII.

                • JD said” I strongly suspect they would be banned as they are more extremist than the Muslim Brotherhood”

                  Muslim brothers are not banned in Israel so on what do you base your idea that they will be banned

          • I fear this is yet another case of the Racism of low, Orientalist expectations.
            Yes and I would add the vicious hate of the Jews, the democratic Western values, plus the frustration being a loser. Scrap the surface of one of these “anti-Zionist” human rights warriors and you will find a professional, marital, sexual, financial failure.

          • C101:

            “Let’s assume — for a moment — that Muslims did in fact treat Jews better than their Christian counterparts.”

            They did.

      • Muslim relations with Jews in Spain were not always peaceful, however. The eleventh century saw Muslim pogroms against Jews in Spain; those occurred in Córdoba in 1011 and in Granada in 1066.
        The Muslim grievance involved was that some Jews had become wealthy, and others had advanced to positions of power.

      • Technically incorrect. They paid the tax because they were non-Muslims, as did Christians. This was – so the logic went – because they were exempted from military service obligations, as I recall it?

        • John, you and facts are generally immiscible. Here’s what the Muslim theologian Al-Razi defined “Jizya” to be:

          The intention of taking the Jizya is not to approve the disbelief of non-Muslims in Islam, but rather to spare their lives and to give them some time; in hope that during it; they might stop to reflect on the virtues of Islam and its compelling arguments, and consequently converting from disbelief to belief. That’s why it’s important to pay the jizya with humiliation and servility, because naturally, any sensible person can not stand humiliation and servility. So if the disbeliever is given some time watching the pride of Islam and hearing evidences of its authenticity, then apparently this might carry him to convert to Islam, and that’s the main rationale behind the enactment of the jizya.

          It was an element of subduing and coercing the “non-believer” to convert to Islam; but first, and foremost, it was the only tender by which non-Muslims were allowed to continue to practice their faiths:

          In return for the tax, those who paid the jizya were permitted to keep their religion. Their economic and political security was guaranteed by the Islamic state, provided that they accepted Islamic control….

          According to Abu Yusuf, jurist of Harun al-Rashid, those who didn’t pay jizya should be imprisoned not to be let out of custody until payment. Though it was an annual tax, non-Muslims were allowed to pay it in monthly instalments.

          Don’t talk about things of which you know nothing, John. Fortunately for you, that means you get to stay quiet, most of, if not all the time. If ever we need consultation on anti-Jewish bigotry(and dissemination thereof), we’d know whom to address.

          • Your “logic” – or lack of it – is truly flawed. How can any person be “mixed” with facts?
            What you say makes no sense. Your citations generally bear out what I said.
            Arguably, anyone who converts from one religion to another does so under conditions of coercion and/or for greater material benefit.
            The rest of your comments are so undignified as to not merit comment.

            • Arguably anyone who converts from one religion to another does so under conditions of coercion and/or for greater material benefit.?

              Is that what you concluded from what Commentary 101 posted? Seems you make very big effort to deny the reality of the true fate of dhimmis in muslim countries.

              • To be honest, I am not sure if dhimmitude (another neologism, so also questionable) is still practised in Muslim countries today. The term is considered Islamophobic.
                Can you provide examples of where it exists today?

                • You and your obsession with neologisms. Perhaps you should only post in Chaucerian English, to avoid any of those pesky recent additions to the language since the 13th century (that swine Shakespeare . You use the term “Islamophobic”. As far as I am aware that was first used in 1996. Is that not a neologism? You should be ashamed of yourself.

                • avoiding again. We were talking about Jews in muslim countries in the past. . As almost none of them left there it is not relevant now. However seeing how they treat christians makes you wonder

            • You, John, and facts don’t mix. Or is anything other than a nominative sentence in English difficult for you to understand?
              “… Your citations generally bear out what I said.”… They don’t. Can you even read?
              “Arguably, anyone who converts from one religion to another does so under conditions of coercion…”. A false, malicious lie. Most people would alter their religious affiliations based on the Kantian concept of Free Will. Ever heard of it, John?
              There was no “material” benefit to be had here. It was either conversion, or withering taxation, or being killed.
              See how it works, John? For instance, did you join the PSC under pain of death? For to me, you sound like their dhimmi, par excellence.
              Scram, John…

              • How can you deny material benefit applies if someone does something to avoid ‘withering taxation, or being killed’? I do not propose to get into a long discussion about the concept of free will for the simple reason that to do so would fill the entire memory system of this blog. You must know that some modern philosophers claim there is no such thing as free will and that all behaviour is determined through evolutionary forces. How can any religious person be considered to have free will, for example? They are under influences which negate any free will – if they even possess it in the first place, which they clearly do not.
                I joined the PSC because I wanted to support their activities, designed to achieve freedom and justice for the Palestinians. It has a cost – financial and in terms of time/energy – but it is a cost I am prepared to sustain to create a fairer world for me, you and everyone living now and yet to come. It was a free choice of mine; no one forced me to join them and no one could force me to join them. I derive no material benefit from being a member of PSC and that is why I am different to a religionist.

                • Escaping death John, is not material lucre. Or do they teach you that in PSC- dialectics? Is it a “Humanist” concept, to seek the death of a fellow citizen, and then dismiss his attempts to save himself, as “bourgeois selfishness”?
                  What can’t you understand, you despicable creature, about the indefensibility of forcing anyone to repudiate his faith on the threat of death?
                  You cannot bring yourself to feel disgusted at this, of course, because it would shatter your “Muslims good — Jews bad” paradigm. Pity they don’t teach you self-criticism, at the PSC. That would be a truly good use of your “cost[s] – financial and in terms of time/energy”.
                  Away with you, odious troll…

                • Your obtuseness is amazing. You are so far inside your own prejudicial bubble you are incapable of assessing anything objectively. I am tempted not to bother with your utterly closed mind – but then I consider that others may want to understand why your logic is so flawed and twisted.
                  I talked about people converting to avoid death or extreme taxation. Physical corporeal existence is material. Money is material. I was not proposing to threaten anyone’s life or wealth – so how do you arrive at that conclusion? Because you are so utterly closed-minded that you are incapable of dealing with true reality.
                  Your kind of “defence” of Israel and all matters Israel-related serves your opponents wonderfully – and you are too stupid to understand why.
                  This comment for you is almost certainly a complete waste of time on my part as I now understand you closed your mind off years ago and are incapable of adapting to any revised circumstances. Hopefully, others will understand where you will not.

                • John, how about we make a deal: You worry about your virulently racist, prejudiced and bigoted “cause”, and I’ll handle the spread of the truth, on my end.
                  After all, it was La Rouchfoucauld who once said that ,”Hypocrisy, is the compliment vice pays to virtue”. Don’t — vice — pay any sort of “compliments” to my virtue.
                  Truth clearly not being your forte, let’s review, for the benefit of the more discerning reader, what has just transpired: You defended the Muslim policy of proselytising and conversion under duress, and suggested that conversions happened solely for “material benefit”.
                  I tried explaining — though I had to contend, of course, with your pea-sized brain, as a receptacle for my disquisition — that preserving life is beyond considerations of any worldly gain.
                  This of course fell on deaf-ears(or a dumb-mind, have your pick), because in your moronic state you cannot even understand that some people cling to higher notions of fealty, faith, and tradition — and perish therefore, even though their opponent offers them an escape through the betrayal of the aforementioned.
                  Such as it stands, they shouldn’t have to choose. And they shouldn’t have to pay a tariff for staying alive. Nor they should they thank their tormentors, thereafter, for not killing them!
                  Now how about you disengage from your prejudices. All your hatred of Jews, besides generating supraphysical levels of bile in your system, also severely fogs your other(barely existent, as it is) faculties.
                  Think of your few remaining braincells and repent!

                • You say ‘You defended the Muslim policy of proselytising and conversion under duress’. Really? Where? I did not defend such a policy; I explained that it was such policies which brought about conversions in others – for understandable reasons.
                  You will probably find that most Palestinians are former Jews who converted to Islam to avoid paying higher taxes or to save their lives and lifestyles. Perfectly understandable. You are right: some people in the past have refused to convert and have been prepared to suffer the consequences. Personally, I think their behaviour was foolish as there is no real basis to any religion but they did what they thought best at the time, I suppose, even if it turned out badly for them and their families.

                • “You will probably find that most Palestinians are former Jews who converted to Islam…” What proof do you have of this incorrigible and laughable confabulation?
                  Tell a Palestinian today they’re related to Jews, and they’d have you stringed up on the nearest tree before you can shout “Yasser Arafat”.

                • JD wrote “You will probably find that most Palestinians are former Jews who converted to Islam”

                  Intresting , as most Palestiniasn are immigrants from arab countries.

                • What NSjohnny tries to insinuate like other crackpots is the notion that the Palestinians are the true Jews, the legitimate heirs.

            • No, John. You said the Jizya was paid “because they [non-Muslims] were exempted from military service obligations”. 101 demonstrated that this was, at best, a very small part of the truth, and that the real motive behind the tax was to pressurise non-believers to convert to Islam. That does NOT bear out what you said.

              If ever there was a comment that was “so undignified as to not merit comment”, it is your strange assertion that “anyone who converts from one religion to another does so under conditions of coercion and/or for greater material benefit”. Of course SOME do so, but “anyone”? Weird.

              • The original context was one in which non-Muslims paid taxes to retain their status as non-Muslims. My understating is that this no longer applies, so the situation in which people felt compelled to convert was in the past. I believe a number of Jews in Spain converted to Christianism, for example, and were called conversos – is that not the case? They too did so for material benefit, i.e. either to stay alive or to have some sort of career and relatively decent lifestyle, for which no one can blame them.

            • JD sport:

              “Arguably, anyone who converts from one religion to another does so under conditions of coercion and/or for greater material benefit.”

              Say what Dowdle?
              One would think you have missed a big reason to convert.
              It is to seek inlightment. To seek answers to questions your faith does not answer.

              Are you a religious man JD?

              • Itsik: you have not been keeping up with all the posts on this blog. If you had, you would know I am a humanist, secularist and rationalist.
                As far as conversions are concerned, the overall effect is the reverse of enlightenment, as it plunges people back into superstition and darkness.
                In an earlier era, it would have been highly advisable to profess religious beliefs and/or to convert to new ones as a way of just staying alive in some cases.
                It is so much better that we all now live in a far more secular world – though there is still some considerable distance to go before we all see the back of all organised religion businesses (which is how I perceive them).

                • As a “humanist secularist” how do you justify your antagonism towards the most secular society in the Middle East and your proposal that it is replaced by yet another misogynist, racist, fundamentalist Islamist junta?

                  Your claim to be a “rationalist” however, is simply laughable given the minuscule levels of rationality you display every time you post.

                  I would say no – on the evidence, you are not a “humanist, secularist and rationalist”. I would say you are a cunt.

                • When or where have I ever advocated a ‘misogynist, racist, fundamentalist Islamist junta’ to be adopted as the Palestinian regime? Nowhere. Your use of Anglo-Saxon English predates even Shakespeare, you will probably be pleased to learn.
                  Mind you, I am surprised that the moderator for this blog allows such language.
                  It shows quite clearly that you have lost the argument, if not all of your arguments.

                • JD:

                  “…you have not been keeping up with all the posts on this blog. If you had, you would know I am a humanist, secularist and rationalist.”

                  Why of course you are.
                  And I care.

                  “..the overall effect is the reverse of enlightenment, as it plunges people back into superstition and darkness.”

                  People who are not religious like me and (perhaps) you, it is correct, but we are not talking about someone looking inside from the outside are we? We are talking how the converted person feels and what they seek via the act of converting.

                  “In an earlier era, it would have been highly advisable to profess religious beliefs and/or to convert to new ones as a way of just staying alive in some cases.”

                  This is not exact and different eras saw different reasons.
                  Your statement may have been correct for the golden era of Islam or the inquisition but it may not be the case through other more calm eras.

                  “It is so much better that we all now live in a far more secular world”
                  Though I agree that secular ways have benefits one cannot but see the destruction that lies behind some secular movements such as Communism and Nazism.
                  You can’t simply brush these away.

                  “…all see the back of all organised religion businesses (which is how I perceive them).”

                  Good for you, and yet religion have some good values to teach you and I.
                  With out religion playing it’s role modern ethics are out of the window.
                  We as a tribal people needed to create society for safety in numbers.
                  As for some religious festivities like Chanuka, Christmas or Eid I find it hard to believe the wrong in bringing children a bit of fun and laughter for a few special days a year.
                  I guess your equivelant will be a day out in Disney world.
                  The best of humanity is on displays in those places you know. :)

                • “If you had, you would know I am a humanist, secularist and rationalist.”

                  At the very beginning of this thread I thought to my self that you didn;t really deserve all the attacks that people were writting to you. YOu did seem like you indeed only wanted to discuss the issue with not favouring any side in particular as you repeated time and time again. . But after reading the latest posts I sadly came to realize that I was wrong. So first of all I have to say I am sorry to all those that I thoght were too harsh. You did try to hide your true face until we touched Islam and dhimmis. YOu couodn’t hold yourself any longer I guess, and the usual Jews haters conspiration floated. Khazar, Jews are not a race, Palestinian are converted Jews etc etc the usual antisemitic lies we can read on any antisemtic site you want.
                  You will probably continue commenting here but do spare us and don’t insult our inteligence by saying you are a humanist etc etc. It makes me want to vomit.

        • I wish you to live as a dhimmi if you like the system so much. Certainly the mass murder of Jews in Muslim Spain (and other Muslim countries) happened because they were exemted from military service

          • It is a truly fascinating process observing you turning into another Fritz.
            Such a pity – you seemed to promise so much more…….

              • Alexa: I have certainly not avoided the question of what you call dhimmi, as I have addressed it in a number of other posts. It is a term which is generally considered to be abusive and Islamophobic. The original Islamic Empire did force non-Muslims to pay taxes but this is no longer the case today, I believe.
                The fate of Jews who lived in mulsim (sic) countries? This ranges over vast areas of time and space. Why don’t you spend a few hours outlining all the specific cases you want considered? Mind you, I will give no guarantee of an answer.

                • It is a term which is generally considered to be abusive and Islamophobic.? Why? is it not true ? We were discussing the life of Jews in the past as there are almost no Jews left there.
                  You will give no garantee to my answer? just google antisemitism in isalm and find out .

            • A pity for you asshole when you can’t answer the simplest questions about your previous lies.

    • Jasper. I, for one, have nothing against Muslims per se. Only those (and their spineless cronies in the West) who are frothing Jew-haters, whether they hide it behind “criticism of Israel” (which, strangely, seems to be the only country with any sort of human rights problems in the world, and the only country that can do no right).

      The dead Muslims in Egypt, as in Syria, Iraq etc are a tragedy – as are the dead Christians. But that’s sort of the point, isn’t it? How does the Guardian’s whitewashing of the MB help to stop Muslims (and Christians and other “infidels”) from dying? Surely a little critical thinking and honesty might help understanding?

      • Labenal: There are few – if any – are ‘frothing Jew haters’ in the West.
        We criticise Israel more in sorrow than in anger, as many in the West expect higher standards from Israel.
        You could claim we are unrealistic or naïve but it is because people of the West are concerned that Israel – a sort of Western standard bearer – should be seen to operate to high standards, possibly even higher than Western standards overall on occasions.
        I don’t hate Jews; I don’t hate anyone.
        On Monday evening, I joined a No2Veolia protest outside Brent Civic Centre and stood alongside a woman who had a Jews for Justice for Palestinians banner.
        I was most happy and proud to stand alongside her.

        • So you admit it. Us Jews should be far more moral than those poor, brown, ignorant Arabs who really don’t know any better. You racist shit.

          • Jews are not a race. Therefore, I am not a racist.
            It is simple enough to understand really if you just apply your mind sensibly.

            • You’re right. You hate Jews irrespective of their race; You hate them, plainly so. All of them, whatever colours they may posses. No matter the pallor of their skin.

                • You only hate the white Jews then?
                  No?
                  Now I know you dislike “invented” words, hard to find a word men didn’t invent but what about racial discrimination?

                  “the term “racial discrimination” shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.”

                  Do you identify yourself as one who feels the need to discriminate in the term above?

                • Racial discrimination is not applicable; religious discrimination is.
                  Neither is acceptable to me, even though I have no time for religious privilege.
                  Ultimately, many people hold peculiar views on occasions. Some time ago I searched on-line for entries relating to flat earth believers. I registered over 1,000,000 hits and found that there was a Flat Earth Society – with an interesting web site – in America. I find their views strange but I do not harbour any ill-will towards them. As some would say, they contribute towards the “rich tapestry” of life.

        • One can only be comforted(and rejoice!) in that you bigoted bastards are being defeated everyday.
          Veolia — one out of many — continues to diversity and extend its holdings throughout Israel. It is also turning a handsome profit.
          I hope you revolting scum are prepared to carry your trash with your bare hands(and by “trash”, I don’t just mean your despicable selves), because not only is Veolia going to continue its work in Brent, Finchley and elsewhere, it already has a massive foothold in hundreds of councils in Britain.
          Your Jew-hatred(which it is, after all) will be vanquished. I hope you don’t catch pneumonia standing out there with your placards, in the cold; Eh, at least you can all fit in a phone-booth, for warmth.
          Begone, execrable slime!

          • Veolia lost a £4.7 billion (around $7.5 billion) contract with the North London Waste Authority recently, which I am delighted to say I may have helped towards.
            Veolia are losing money and contracts globally. Their share price is a quarter what is what even a few years ago. They have had to engage in firestorm asset sales to raise cash to plug a huge deficit in their finances.
            Like Agrexco before them, Veolia are on the way out.
            Thank you for your concerns as to my health.
            It is nice to know I have friends like you – I think?

            • So lies, damned lies, and statistics?
              Fortunately, all this is easily verifiable:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veolia#Financial_information

              In 2012, Veolia earned more than 394 Million(!) Euros, after suffering a net loss of 489 million in 2011. Its operating income grew to the tune of 87 million Euros. Its debt fell by about 3 billion(!) Euros.
              Now how’s that for short change? If anyone’s on the way out, it’s your miserable lot.
              I guess here’s a future contract for Veolia: Carrying out YOU to the dump.
              Don’t delude yourself: your twelve or so comrades are anything but your “friends”. I believe Charles Manson had ‘friends’ like these. And wherefore Manson, and you?

                • Tell yourself whatever you must, to support your miserable existence.
                  We wouldn’t want you, after all, to suddenly internalise, with a gasp, the worthlessness and hollowness of your pursuit, the seething hate(re Jews) you’re filled with, and decide to do something … shall we put it… unorthodox.
                  Thank Heavens the UK has sensible gun laws. The mischief you could unleash in such an eventuality — on yourself, and others — were firearms at your disposal.
                  You’re unhinged, desperately in need of mental succour.

                • Just don’t off yourself before we’ve had a chance to have some more fun(at your expense).
                  The rest is none of my concern.

              • You may find the following facts of interest:-

                Israeli court fines Veolia waste management subsidiary NIS 1.5 million

                TMM Integrated Recycling Industries, owned by international environmental conglomerate Veolia Environnement, must pay state additional NIS 1.5 million fee for burying waste.

                Haaretz – 13 June 2013

                Note:

                1. This fine levied on Veolia by the Petah Tikva Magistrates Court for filing false company reports about waste handled at the Tovlan landfill site by its subsidiary TMM is prima facie evidence of grave professional misconduct on the part of the single-entity Veolia corporation.

                2. The disclaimer by TMM at the end of the article – that it sold its rights in the Tovlan site – was disproved by Who Profits? in January 2013 when a freedom of information enquiry to the Ministry of Environmental Protection got an official reply confirming that Veolia is still the sole owner and operator of the Tovlan Landfill, through its subsidiary TMM.

                3. Tovlan is situated in the illegally occupied Palestinian Territories. Veolia and its subsidiary companies should not be dumping toxic Israeli waste in the West Bank.

                TMM Integrated Recycling Industries, owned by the international environmental conglomerate Veolia Environnement, must pay the state an additional NIS 1.5 million fee for burying waste. The Petah Tikva Magistrates Court handed down the ruling a few days ago in the company’s appeal of a decision by the Environmental Protection Ministry to levy the fee.

                The ministry required the additional fee after it found inconsistencies between the company’s reports on the amount of waste it had handled – and for which it had to pay the fee – and the actual amounts it disposed of.

                The decision came after the ministry checked the volume of materials arriving at the Tovlan landfill in the Jordan Valley, which TMM uses to bury waste.

                The examination at the site included checking the garbage trucks and discovered that TMM was reporting part of the waste “remnants of sorting,” which is the remaining waste that cannot be recycled after it has been sorted. This category of “remainders” is charged a much lower landfill fee than materials which can be recycled – but are buried.

                In reality, TMM was burying mixed waste, part of which could be recycled, but not paying the full fee for such waste.

                The ministry’s comptroller examining the Tovlan site discovered that the amounts of this remaindered waste buried at the site grew greatly in 2007, while the amounts of mixed waste dropped significantly. And this was during a period when no new facilities for sorting or recycling the waste were opened – which could have been the only explanation for the large changes in the quantities involved.

                The ministry’s representative found discrepancies in the reports on what was sent from the transfer stations for waste collection in Afula and Petah Tikva – and what was reported as arriving at the Tovlan landfill site. For example, on those days when the examiners arrived after notifying the company in advance, the composition of the garbage was very different than on those days when they arrived without giving advance notice.

                Judge Oshrit Rothkopf rejected the claims of the appeal one after another. As to TMM’s claim that part of the waste at Tovlan was turned into compost at a nearby site, and there was no need to pay a fee on such waste, the judge ruled that TMM presented no documentation on any waste being transferred to such a compost site, and in any case that site was so small it was impossible to produce quality compost there that could then be sold.

                The judge said it was amazing how the company was able to transform large quantities of waste into “sorting remnants” in a single day without any additional manpower, overtime hours or additional shifts – and amazingly it all happened as soon as the landfill fee was instituted.

                TMM said: “This is an old matter whose clarification only ended now after long sessions in court. We are glad the state understood that the implementation of the law on landfill fees in its previous format was problematic, and therefore in the meantime [the state] changed it. Also, it should be emphasized that in 2011, TMM sold its rights in the landfill site to Moshav Masuah and from that time [TMM] is no longer the owner of the site. Therefore, the matter is no longer relevant. The company acted and will continue to act according to the law.”

                This is the company you all want to align yourselves with, eh?

                • Two own-goals here, John. This, emphatically disproves any of your previous contentions about an erosion of the “Rule of Law” in Israel. Here, clearly against the interests of big business, Israeli courts ruled on a substantive matter with impartiality.
                  Secondly, the use of the phrase “Illegally occupied Palestinian territories” & the reference to “Who Profits”(a notoriously biased(and oft-lying, what a surprise!) anti-Israel NGO). I suppose you inserted that, yourself. Except, in your infinite stupidity you forget that the “occupation” such as it is, is NOT illegal — and according to Intl. law can only terminate AFTER a comprehensive peace accord had been signed. Israeli presence is mandatory per UNSC Res. 242.
                  Go and rant about Jewish tradition in some obscure provincial press. It’s much more your style.

        • ” as many in the West expect higher standards from Israel.”
          “possibly even higher than Western standards overall on occasions.”

          By what right do you hold Israel to a higher standard than yourselves?

    • “…once I saw it simultaneously on 3 new programmes”

      jasper, so you claim to have 3 different TV sets tuned to 3 different New(s) programmes which you watch at the same time?

      What a sad individual you truly are.
      Although my own view is that you are lying as you normally do.

      • “so you claim to have 3 different TV sets tuned to 3 different New(s) programmes”

        No I used the remote control ( Sorry to sound so ordinary ) It was just after the hour and I listened to the Beeb ..got fed up of Glenn G …went to Sky…there he was again big kiss to his boyfriend …went to Aljazeera there he was.

        The Guardian can not only claim to be the best paper but now it is going mainstream. CIFWatch seems to have a few angry Zionists shouting ” anti semite “at anyone who mildly criticises Israel .It looks gauche and feeble.

        If the Guardian is to be tackled about its coverage sobriety and caution must be used . However more than anything it has to be balanced and not look like a bunch of angry schoolkids making rude gestures

        • “No I used the remote control ( Sorry to sound so ordinary ) It was just after the hour and I listened to the Beeb ..got fed up of Glenn G …went to Sky…there he was again big kiss to his boyfriend …went to Aljazeera there he was.”

          Which contradicts your earlier claim that you,
          “…once I saw it simultaneously on 3 new programmes”

          jasper your mask and, as usual, your standard of English is slipping.
          ‘Simultaneously’ means ‘at the same time’

          So when you made your claim above is it due to your ignorance of the English language, or were you lying as usual?

          • No flies on you . Meanwhile Greenwald was interviewed on Channel 4 news at 7 and his new article in the Guardian has a thousand posts. So sneer all you like.He is running rings round you lot Good luck to him

  3. “I, for one, have nothing against Muslims per se.”

    Some of my best friends are Muslims?

    “Israel the only country with any sort of human rights problems in the world”

    Israel is no worse than many better than most. The difference is that most people recognise the rights issues in their own country .My country the UK is way way worse than Israel in terms of Muslims killed this century and historically makes Israel look like an oasis of rights .

    The problem for you guys is the Guardian is now more famous than ever has now got a huge well of support following the Greenwald fiasco and is looking mainstream. People like Fritz now seem like extremist caricatures.

    • I am glad some of your best friends are Muslims, Jasper. Good for you.

      “The difference is that most people recognise the rights issues in their own country.” Are you having a laugh? Are you seriously suggesting that Israel is somehow covering up any “rights issues”? Have you ever watched an Israeli news programme, picked up an Israeli newspaper or logged on to an Israeli blog? And you think Israel is blind to its own problems?

      By contrast, have you ever looked at the propaganda which pretends to be the media in Gaza, the PA, Syria, Saudia Arabia, Egypt, Iran etc? When was the last time you read any criticism of the ruling regime in the press of any of those countries?

      And if you are right – that the Guardian is now “more famous than ever and has got a huge well of support” – surely that makes it even MORE important that it does not uncritically publish the “democratic”, “peaceful” intentions of an organisation that is decidedly anything but democratic or peaceful?

  4. Pingback: Guardian enables Muslim Brotherhood propaganda | Trending Central

  5. “Crimes against humanity previously unheard of are being perpetrated in a systemic fashion”

    How did he write this with a straight face. Even ignoring all the genocides of the 20th century, just look at what is happening in Syria

  6. Of course, if you pick up an Israeli Newspaper – You will find how Palestinian rights are preserved within the only democrazy in the Arab world.

    Here is the news on Palestinian rights being protected by the Mayor of Jerusalem.

    The Jerusalem Municipality has manipulated the statistics of housing demolitions in east Jerusalem to make it look like fewer are taking place, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

    The policy of not including “self-demolitions” – where Arab families are threatened with staggering fines if they do not demolish their own houses – in the official count, has allowed Jerusalem to present a picture of a dramatic decrease in demolitions during Mayor Nir Barkat’s term.

    In 2008, the municipality and the Interior Ministry carried out 102 housing demolitions in east Jerusalem. This decreased to 69 in 2009, 27 in 2010 and just 14 in 2011, according to statistics from the municipality, the ministry, B’Tselem – The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, and the Israeli Committee Against Housing Demolitions. But these statistics only account for the number of homes that authorities destroyed.

    In 2000, the municipality began a policy of “self-demolitions.”

    Since then, the demolition orders can require the owners of the house to pay exorbitant fines unless they carry out the demolitions themselves. Some Arab families chose this path, fearful they could become mired in debt.

    A municipal spokesman said the self-demolitions were a result of the courts placing increasingly higher fines on repeat offenders, and that some people “preferred to demolish the buildings themselves rather than accrue additional fines.” He added that the municipality does not keep track of self-demolitions.

    The municipality sees them as a “successful achievement in the enforcement and collection policy,” the spokesman said.

    The number of self-demolitions rose from 18 in 2008 to 49 in 2009 and 70 in 2010, Margalit (Meretz), who holds the east Jerusalem portfolio. Margalit is one of the founders of the Israeli Committee Against Housing Demolitions.

    The revelation is especially significant ahead of US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s visit to Israel next Monday. After a number of demolitions were announced during her first visit as secretary of state in March 2009, she publicly called housing demolitions in east Jerusalem “unhelpful.”

    “Clinton said we can’t demolish homes, but she didn’t say anything about them demolishing their own homes,” Margalit said. “This way, it doesn’t show up on the statistics.”

    “We were playing a joke on the Americans” by manipulating the statistics, Margalit said. “Someone thinks people are stupid, that Jews can always pull a fast one on the goyim, and they are causing huge damage to Israel.”

    In response to a query from The Jerusalem Post on Thursday about Clinton’s stance and the subsequent manipulation of housing demolition numbers, a State Department official referred to a White House statement made in 2009.

    “Neither party should engage in efforts or actions that could unilaterally preempt, or appear to preempt, negotiations,” it read. “We also object to other Israeli practices in Jerusalem related to housing, including the continuing pattern of evictions and demolitions of Palestinian homes. Our position is clear: The status of Jerusalem is a permanent-status issue that must be resolved through negotiations between the parties.”

    The municipal spokesman said the decline in house demolitions was due to an improvement in ties between the city and Arab residents, as well as an increase in construction permits given to Arab residents.

    The spokesman said the municipality approved 60 construction permits in east Jerusalem in 2011, up from just two in 2005. But, according to a recent housing report by left-wing Jerusalem research group Ir Amim, east Jerusalem Arabs need about 1,500 construction permits a year to accommodate population growth.

    Hilary Leila Krieger contributed to this report from Washington.
    by Taboola
    From Our Partners

  7. Unlike the Guardian, the Jerusalem Post reports on how the only democracy in the Arab world is trying to establish the rule of law

    http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Government-bulldozers-raze-2-east-Jerusalem-homes-314071

    Government bulldozers demolished two residential buildings in east Jerusalem on Tuesday morning for being illegally constructed on a national park, the Interior Ministry said Wednesday.

    However, Meretz city councilman Dr. Meir Margalit, who holds the east Jerusalem portfolio, dismissed the ministry’s claim as a “dirty trick” that the government was using to confiscate land from Palestinians under false pretenses.

    Related:
    High Court summons A-G over east J’lem property
    According to Interior Ministry spokeswoman Efrat Orbach, the leveled homes were built on the National Garden of Armon Hanatziv, in East Talpiot, which borders east Jerusalem’s Jebl Mukaber neighborhood.

    “It was illegal building in an area declared a national garden,” said Orbach on Wednesday.

    “No one can build there because it’s owned by the public, not a person. It’s the equivalent of building a house in Sacher Park and being upset when the place is destroyed.”

    Margalit countered that by designating the area as a public park, the government was unfairly and arbitrarily confiscating Palestinian land.

    “There are many ways to take control of Palestinian land in Jerusalem,” Margalit said by phone Wednesday.

    “One of the ways is for the government to declare an area a ‘national park’ – then no one can get a license to build there, and homes can be taken away.”

    He continued, “You have to look at this in the context of dirty tricks the government uses to take land away from Palestinians. By declaring the land [of the homes destroyed Tuesday] a ‘national garden,’ the government doesn’t have to pay compensation to the owners of the land.”

    According to the Ma’an News Agency, one of the buildings, constructed in 1973 and owned by the Abu al- Dabaat family, consisted of three floors and housed four families; the second home was built in 2000 by the al-Qaqs, a family of three.

    Asked when the area had been designated a national park, Orbach replied, “A long time ago.”

    Although neither family had obtained building permits from the Interior Ministry, Margalit expressed frustration over the demolitions, saying that residents of east Jerusalem had been put in an untenable situation.

    “In east Jerusalem, there is a catch-22 because the government refuses to give [building] licenses in most cases,” he said. “And when big families have a number of children, they need housing – and there is already a shortage there.

    When they’re placed in this predicament, they have no choice but to build without a license.”

    Indeed, data from the NGO Bimkom claim that 95 percent of Palestinian applications for building permits are rejected.

    “On one side, there is a [national] law [requiring a building permit], but on the other side there is what I call the ‘Law of Life,’ and it says when your family needs a house and you have land that belongs to you, you have an obligation to build it,” said Margalit.

    “So when the law of the country contradicts the Law of Life, the Law of Life is stronger than the law of the country,” he continued. “If we put Palestinians in an impossible situation – where they can’t get building licenses and the need is so strong in east Jerusalem – they have no choice but to build.”

    Orbach categorically denied the assertion that it was difficult for residents of east Jerusalem to obtain building permits.

    “Everyone can get a license – they just need to fill out the forms,” she said. “I don’t understand the claim at all.”

    Furthermore, she contended that the Interior Ministry unilaterally saw illegal construction in all parts of the capital as a violation of the law.

    “It’s illegal to build without a permit, and the ministry views all illegal buildings as the same,” she said. “There’s no pass for anyone.”

    Still, Margalit likened the Palestinians’ situation in east Jerusalem to Israel’s lack of sovereignty during the British Mandate.

    “This is exactly what the Zionist movement did under the British Mandate – the British attempted to enforce their laws, and the Jews defied them,” he said. “The difference here is that Jews defied the British due to ideological motivations, and the Palestinians are doing it without any political intentions…. They just want a house for their family.”

    Tuesday’s demolitions are the latest developments in what human rights organizations are decrying as an unauthorized implementation of the “Jerusalem 2000 Outline Plan,” which severely curtails Palestinian residential construction.

    In a petition submitted to the Jerusalem Administrative Court on April 21, Bimkom and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI) argued that the controversial outline plan – which never passed into law, but is treated as if it was ratified – is being enforced illegally, making it virtually impossible for Palestinians to get building permits.

    “The already limited opportunities faced by east Jerusalem residents in developing their neighborhoods and receiving building permits are being further restricted by the decision to consider the unapproved outline plan as a ‘policy document,’” said ACRI attorney Keren Tzafrir.

    However, the Jerusalem Municipality issued a statement in April flatly denying the petition’s assertions.

    “The Jerusalem Municipality rejects the allegations as incorrect and inaccurate,” the statement read. “This is a program that has been planned for over 10 years and aims to guide and outline the development of the city in the coming decades.”

    The municipality claimed the program would enable the construction of 50,000 housing units in all parts of Jerusalem – two-thirds for the Jewish sector and one-third for the Arab sector, in relation to their respective populations.

    Palestinians constitute 39% of the capital’s residents, yet the total area designated for building in their neighborhoods covers only 14% of east Jerusalem, or just 7.8% of the entire city, said ACRI.

    Meanwhile, the municipality claimed that once the outline plan is approved, “the bureaucratic procedures for getting building permits in the city will be easier.”

    According to the UN, 33% of all Palestinian homes in east Jerusalem lack governmentissued building permits, potentially placing at least 93,100 residents at risk of displacement.

    • And still A poll found out this about East Jerusalme arabs .

      When asked if they preferred to become a citizen of Palestine, with all of the rights and privileges of other citizens of Palestine, or a citizen of Israel, only 30 percent chose Palestinian citizenship – as compared to 35 percent that chose Israeli citizenship.

      When asked if they would move to a different location inside Israel, if their neighborhood became part of Palestine, 40 percent said they were likely to move to Israel, and 37percent said they will not move. In comparison, 27percent said they are likely to move to Palestine if their neighborhood became part of Israel, and 54percent said they will not move.

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  9. “According to the UN, 33% of all Palestinian homes in east Jerusalem lack governmentissued building permits, potentially placing at least 93,100 residents at risk of displacement.”

    To freeze or not to freeze?
    no win with these guys.

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  11. I think that is a good idea itsik, almost worthy of peace prize. Let us freeze the buildings but only as replacement to demolished Palestinian houses. Demolish all Palestinian houses and re-build in the settlements for the settlers. No overall increase in the number of dwellings in what is after all our land as God gave it to us. What a no brainer. Also, one single sweep we get rid of of the existential demographic threat to our country. Brilliant.

    • Demographic threat? not really.
      Overstating the Palestinian population is good for Palestinian morale, bad for Israeli morale, and heightens Jewish fears of the so-called “demographic time bomb”; second, there is a significant financial incentive, as the international community provides money to the Palestinian Authority according to the number of its inhabitants. When the Palestinian Authority pads its population numbers, the Palestinian Authority receives more money.

      Careful demographic analysis, however, should lead to a conclusion in stark contrast to the demographic time bomb thesis. The natural increase of the Jewish population in Israel—that is, its yearly birth rate less its yearly death rate—stabilized thirty years ago and, since 2002, has even begun to grow. The natural increase of the total Arab population, comprising both Israeli Arabs and the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza, continues to descend toward convergence with the Jewish population, probably in the latter half of this century.

      The data, moreover, point to rising levels of Arab emigration, particularly among young people. According to the survey conducted by Bir-Zeit University, 32 percent of all Palestinians and 44 percent of Palestinian youth would emigrate if they could.

      http://www.meforum.org/2124/the-politics-of-palestinian-demography

  12. Well of course the Muslim really treated the Jews very badly much worse than the treatment of the Palestinians when all that happens is their houses are demolished – but this is what the Ottomons did

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

    The first Jewish synagogue linked to Ottoman rule is Etz ha-Hayyim (Hebrew: עץ החיים Lit. Tree of Life) in Bursa which passed to Ottoman authority in 1324. The synagogue is still in use, although the modern Jewish population of Bursa has shrunk to about 140 people.[7]
    During the Classical Ottoman period (1300–1600), the Jews, together with most other communities of the empire, enjoyed a certain level of prosperity. Compared with other Ottoman subjects, they were the predominant power in commerce and trade as well in diplomacy and other high offices. In the 16th century especially, the Jews rose to prominence under the millets, the apogee of Jewish influence could arguable be the appointment of Joseph Nasi to Sanjak-bey (governor, a rank usually only bestowed upon Muslims) of the island of Naxos.[8] Also in the first half of the 17th century the Jews were distinct in winning Tax farms, Haim Gerber describes it as: “My impression is that no pressure existed, that it was merely performαnce that counted.”[9]
    An additional problem was the lack of unity among the Jews themselves. They had come to the Ottoman Empire from many lands, bringing with them their own customs and opinions, to which they clung tenaciously, and had founded separate congregations. Another tremendous upheaval was caused when Sabbatai Zevi proclaimed to be the Messiah. He was eventually caught by the Ottoman authorities and when given the choice between death and conversion, he opted for the latter. His remaining disciples converted to Islam too. Their descendants are today known as Donmeh.

  13. RObert Alright/Kumar Chaudry/Rebuttal/Jim Chance, Frederick, Richard
    NSIsmail/NSIsmael/Jason Helper/John Walsh/ranamirza/Rafi Mirza, from NSIsmail to Antisemite Rana the antisemitic member of the Diane Shame Group of aliases like Mondoweiss Chris/Isac/ liar/Peter Ounce/Islamabadi/diane/dianeshammes/Angel/Rafi aka Sharon/Jane/Catherine/Samantha/HarpalSingh/AaronPatel/AnrewBird/Jeremy Bowles/AlanThornton/Jabal/Alan/Deborah/Jim/Jason/Dirk/Nick/Natzie/Rob, amended by Gerald with Dopey/Grumpy/Sneezy/Sleazy/Tosser/Dorothy/Straw Man/Dick Head/Drek

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  15. am
    hoping that by the time you
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    It would, of course, be helpful if the poster had any concept of the actual use of paragraphs.

    • It would be even more helpful if I didn’t mess up my HTML tags… trying again:

      am
      hoping that by the time you
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      to becoming
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      It would, of course, be helpful if the poster had any concept of the actual use of paragraphs.

  16. Pingback: The Failure of Western Diplomacy in Egypt | Middle East, Israel, Arab World, Southwest Asia, Maghreb

  17. if enenemy dont want religion of Islam in any muslim country it does not mean that he would be always successes to his ambtions.If we muslim stanf firm and determined our goal then no one stop us like Egyptian. they will succeeded in their Goalm Inshallah .

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