David Ward’s Bulldozer


The following was written by Mark Gardner at the blog of the CST

David Ward

David Ward

Old friends and (new) foes have advised David Ward MP that he is in a hole and really should stop digging. (For background, see here and here.) Unfortunately, whoever runs his website disagrees, and has posted an article that renders Ward unfit to serve as a Member of Parliament for so long as it remains there.

With this new article, Ward has swapped his spade for a bulldozer.

The article is entitled, “Guardian continues the hounding of David Ward”. It exemplifies the type of loose – and therefore dangerous and highly offensive – language about Jews, Israel and the Holocaust that got Ward exactly where he is today.

Having posted this, it is clear that David Ward and his constituency team neither understand the power of words, nor the importance of precision of language. They most certainly underestimate its importance in the context of dealing with Jews and in relation to racism. So it is fitting, and somewhat sad, that the article is itself a counterattack on a recent Guardian interview with Ward, headlined “David Ward: ‘The solid ground I stand on is that I am not a racist’ ”.

The interview, by Aida Edemariam, criticises Ward for not understanding why he caused offence with his Jews-Holocaust-Israel-Palestinians linkage, but it does seem to afford him every opportunity to state his case and quotes him at length. It is well worth reading, but outraged John Hilley who wrote about it on his (ill-termed) Zenpolitics website. This is the article that is now on Ward’s website, where it resides under Ward’s name and the logo of the Liberal Democrat Party.

Hilley begins by reminding us what Ward originally said about “the Jews” having suffered in the Holocaust and then “inflicting atrocities on Palestinians”. He acknowledges that Ward’s wording was poor, but states that the outrage about it is somehow artificial: 

whatever lack of qualification or carelessness in his words, were we really to believe that Ward meant or implied that all Jews were/are responsible for Israel’s repressions and occupation?

To which the answer, for most of us, would be a resounding “yes”. When someone says “the Jews”, we take that to mean “the Jews”. Indeed, isn’t that the standard defence of every anti-Zionist who has ever been accused of antisemitism? “Errr…I didn’t say ‘the Jews’, I was clearly only talking about Ariel Sharon / the IDF / Israelis / Zionists / George Bush / the Board of Deputies of British Jews…”.

Building from this self-serving deceit, the article vilifies those who have taken issue with Ward’s Jews-Holocaust-Israel-Palestinians construct. It includes these misrepresentations of complaints:

the expected criticism from outraged Zionists…

Edemariam like all Ward’s detractors, really knows what he meant…

his [Ward’s] meaning is likely to have been well understood…

Ward’s real ‘mistake’, as far as the Zionist lobby and many liberal commentariat are concerned – and as his Liberal colleague Jenny Tongue also found out to her cost – was to criticise Israel at all…

Those, like David Ward, who courageously speak in any kind of similar vein – despite his subsequent corrections – are, as usual, pilloried for being anti-Semitic and hounded by liberal media types for not subscribing to the template Zionist narrative…

There is a small mercy in that the article’s insistence that Ward did not mean “the Jews”, helps inoculate it against similar charges. Hilley clearly does not mean all “the Jews”, but this article still leaves the reader believing that any complainant is part of a conspiracy to silence all dissent on Israel, Zionism, or prevailing Holocaust narratives.

As Ward has previously put it and as positively cited again in this article:

Ward’s point about the “huge operation out there, a machine almost, which is designed to protect the state of Israel from criticism” also applies to this kind of liberal baiting.

(“Liberal baiting” is a reference to the Guardian interviewer, Aida Edemariam. The news that the Guardian is also somehow in on this alleged conspiracy to silence Ward, Tonge and their ilk, may surprise those who have followed debates about ‘the new antisemitism’ in recent decades.)

Despite all this, the article’s primary thrust tries to reinforce Ward’s post-facto rationalisation of his behaviour in the controversy thus far: the notion that he is bravely trying to kick-start an urgent debate on how the Holocaust impacted upon the subsequent actions of Israel and/or Zionists (but not “the Jews” – or at least not those Jews who kept out of it all).

Now we are no longer talking about the offence caused by stupid routine accusations about all criticism of Israel being falsely jumped on as antisemitism; or the even sillier (and far more original) idea that the Guardian is now in on the act. Instead, we are back to talking about the Holocaust. We are back to the original cause of the outrage against Ward.  You might, therefore, expect the language to now, at long last, be careful and precise, empathetic even towards those who were so upset. Sadly, this is not the case:

Nor was Ward linking the Holocaust and the Occupation by comparing or equating them as “categories”. He was linking them in the obvious sense that the Holocaust was used as a part of the Zionist agenda for occupying another people’s land…

Indeed, how dare Zionists not ignore the near genocide of European Jewry, but to move on, Ward’s insistence that he was not equating “the Holocaust and the Occupation…as ‘categories’” has been central to his defence since day one of this squalid controversy. Bizarrrely, having just stated the above, Hilley then bulldozes under both his and Ward’s position, writing:

And if Edemariam really does believe after sixty years of ethnic cleansing, mass IDF murder, settler takeovers, apartheid transfer policies and the continued prison camp siege of Gaza that Israel “is not setting out to annihilate [the Palestinian] people”, perhaps she is the one who should be more carefully considering her incendiary language.

In the space of two small paragraphs, Hilley has gone from saying that the Holocaust is obviously not the same as “occupying another people’s land” to outrage that Ward’s interviewer has denied Israel “is not setting out to annihilate the Palestinian people”.

To be precise, “setting out to annihilate” is not the same as perpetrating an annihilation / Holocaust, but to the man on the Clapham (or Bradford East) omnibus, there will be little difference. Then, there is the seriousness of what Hilley’s angry denial of Edemariam’s words implies – that Israel is actually setting out to annihilate the Palestinian people, as the Nazis set out to annihilate the Jews.

If this is to be Ward’s chosen category comparison / equation, then he has no place continuing as an MP.   

Hilley’s article is not yet done. It has “a rather basic set of sequential things to restate”. Bullet points follow, beginning with an accurate description and full condemnation of the Holocaust against “the Jews”. Nevertheless, the centrality of antisemitism and the Holocaust to Nazi ideology is undersold by the next point:

  • “It was part of a systematic purge on any community, Jews, Gypsies, Communists, deemed inferior or/and a threat to Nazi ideology and power.”

The article continues:

  • Anyone who seeks to deny or misconstrue these basic facts is either peddling lies, misinformed  or uninterested in the truth”

More “basic facts” follow and again we are told that if you do not agree with them then you are either a liar or a fool. They include:

  • “The Holocaust formed a central ideological, political and militarist agenda in the Zionist formulation and creation of a Jewish state.”

If anything, this goes even further than the earlier mention of the Holocaust and “the Zionist agenda”. Notwithstanding the first of Hilley’s points, it is as if the Holocaust has now been stripped of all meaning for Jews and reduced to some kind of deeper, more elemental truth about it being a Zionist tool. The bullet points continue, including:

  • “We cannot reasonably learn or understand anything about Palestinian suffering without referencing the Holocaust and the ways in which Zionism has used it to legitimise the Occupation.”

So, whilst the basic reasons as to how and why the Holocaust might feed into Jewish support for Zionism are dehumanised, the opposite must apply for Palestinian suffering. For now, let us just say that this is a striking double standard.

Then, Hilley cites Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein “whose own Jewish family were murdered in extermination camps…this has been turned into ideological propaganda through the Holocaust Industry”.

All of which feeds to the article’s conclusion about Ward’s “careless discrepancy” being maliciously used “to keep other journalists in a state of  cautious apprehension about discussing the Holocaust in relation to the Occupation…[this] personalised hatchet-job does exactly what the Zionist lobby and self-protecting editors want in keeping all that prudently off-limits”.

Let us be clear, an article such as Hilley’s is not exceptional within proper anti-Zionist and anti-Israel circles. Its weird claim that “Jews” really means “Zionists” or “Israelis” repeats what we have previously heard from Caryl Churchill and Paul Foot, two wordsmiths beside whom Hilley and Ward pale into insignificance. Its claim that outrage over Ward’s spitting on Holocaust memory is proof that any and all criticism of Israel is falsely accused of antisemitism is merely routine; as is the coterminous accusation that such claims succeed in shutting up all criticism.

Even the idea that Israel wants to repeat what the Nazis did is not that unusual, with Holocaust Memorial Day fast become a lightning rod for this sickening, perverse claim. 

However, for all of this rubbish to be brought together in a single article on an MP’s website brings shame upon the Liberal Democrat Party, and upon Ward’s many decent colleagues who keep getting spattered with mud from these issues. So long as this article remains on David Ward MP’s website, he is unfit to serve as a Member of Parliament.

84 comments on “David Ward’s Bulldozer

  1. I am going to be very forward in this comment. So apologies if this offends.

    However, I am getting grossly sick and tired over the number of years, a large majority of UK Jewish organisations have continually seemed to be openly aligning themselves with those “diversity” groups that have publicly been seen to support, through the internet, twitter individuals with a “protocol” type sympathy.

    “Hope no Hate”, a supposed Government funded anti-Racist diversity organisation, languishing on a UK based #edl tag, political left, hacking paradise, overtly anti-Israel, and swamped with vile protocol conspiratorial rhetoric, #bds idiots, daily returning tweets from anti-Israel lobbyists.
    How can a twitter hashtag become so important in the fight against anti-zionism and anti-semitism.

    What Jewish organisations need to know, is that there is a virtual war going on twitter. Laughable but true, and very important to understand.

    For the last 6 yrs, on the twitter forum, pro-Israel advocates not connected to any organisation, but because of their Love for Israel and the Jewish people, have been successful in exposing Muslim and anti-Racist groups for their hypocritical exploitation in their propoganda machine about Israel.

    However by Jewish organisations aligning with anti-Israel groups, and even the recent “TellMamaUK” , another Government funded diversity charity, which is supposed to concentrate on Islamophobic attacks, but sits on twitter like the stazi, trying to close down pro-Israel accounts daily.

    What this does, in the end is gives more credence to people like David Ward MP, who also have attended meetings and “demos” alongside these anti-Israel groups.
    I know that CIF watch posted a photograph of Mr Ward at one of these shin-digs, and lo and behold a “swastika” place conveniently next to the word Israel on a banner.
    I and others have personally been attacked on twitter by “diversity” groups who try to smear Pro-Israel tweeters with the same old “you are a BNP nazi” supporter trash.
    Our private details have been placed over twitter, photos of our children, our family, and the same people who have placed this on twitter, frequently are in twitter chat with the organisations I have mentioned.

    Only a few days ago, a well known Muslim Media personality, Mo Ansar, tweeted /RT that “Hitler was Part Jew”..and then openly exploited and gave publicity to a twitter account called IsraelRNazis.

    No wonder that those who attack and vilifile Israel are able to speak such hatred and No wonder that individuals supporting Israel and advocating for Israel are met with such vile anti-Semitic abuse day in and day out.

    This is not a personal war, nor a personal vendetta. This is how young minds are swayed, into thinking that Israel is a Nazi state, and Zionists are also.

    Twitter has become a vastly more important propaganda news machine, than Facebook ever was or wishes to be.

    However if so called reputable Jewish organisations want to counteract the hatred on social media, anti-Zionism and anti-antisemitism, they are first going to have to openly condemn those groups who they have become rather dangerously attached to in the public domain.

  2. No surprises that Ward / Hilley counts among their most ardent support network , the Palestine Solidarity Campaign . Despite their best attempts to overhaul their image by changing their ‘From the River to the Sea logo , to a neutral sanitised version , to date only their twitter stream and Facebook wall has undergone the change . Their website still shows the offending logo . See here

    http://www.palestinecampaign.org/

    And here .

    https://mobile.twitter.com/PSCupdates

    The PSC is a totalitarian racist organisation that Ward has linked to on his website via his attack dog Hilley . See here

    John Hilley9 February 2013 01:50
    Here’s the very useful and succinct Leeds PSC statement and proposed letter to the Liberal Democrats regarding David Ward:

    http://www.leedspsc.org.uk/action-alert-david-ward-and-the-holocaust-comments/

    John

    Reply

    JCB s and bulldozers all round !

    • You are wrong there. PSC National did not say a word about David Ward. The only branch that did so was Leeds. And what is your evidence for saying PSC is “a totalitarian racist organisation”?

      • Aha Harvey, you can have a field day giving evidence of the neo-fascist organisation ranging from barring their propagandised members from hearing any counter balance discussion, barring Jews from their meetings, supporting Hamas that calls for genocide of all Jews and some

  3. Not so much a bulldozer as the kind of industrial-style vertical boring machine last seen manned by Bruce Willis in that near-apocalyptic asteroid movie.

  4. I wish to comment on this passage:

    <>

    Who is this “we”? Are “you” not lumping “yourselves” together also? You need to qualify this “we”. I think “you” mean those “we” who watch and wait until a critic of Israel mis-speaks in any way. We (and I mean society at large) need to examine why “you” do this.

    Thank you.

    Elizabeth Morley

      • Dear Jeff, Pretz and others who have kindly engaged in conversation with me:
        I was talking to the people who watch and wait for the opportunity to shift the discussion away from Palestinian victimhood to Jewish victimhood, which is what I thought Mark Gardner was trying to do. I don’t think he himself believes he was speaking for “society at large”, whether in the UK, Israel or anywhere else. Nor do I believe he thought he was speaking for all Jews. That is why I challenged him (or someone on his behalf) to explain in whose name precisely he thought he WAS speaking. He must know that not all people of the Jewish faith or ethnicity think like he does. I don’t. But some would have us believe that Jews are a homogenous entity, all thinking alike – which is disingenuous. JfJfP writes: “…however poorly he expressed himself, Mr Ward did not equate the Holocaust with the Nakba and is not an anti-Semite. He was pointing to a real connection that tends to be denied both by some supporters of the Palestinians, who refuse to see the historical background to the birth of Israel, and by supporters of the policies of Israel, who deny the ethnic cleansing of 1948 and the continuing human rights violations against the Palestinians.” I am also comparing Mark Gardner with Jewish voices of conscience represented here: http://micahsparadigmshift.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/letter-to-anne-frank.html

        • Ms. Morley,

          Mr. Ward’s comments were simple and in plain English. Your clumsy effort to defend them (along with others) and go on a rant about about Palestinian victimization leads me to this plain English phrase about them: You’re full of sh_t.
          Contemporaneous accounts from 1948 were pretty clear as to the intent of the Arabs and the uphill battle the Jews faced for their very survival. There’s really no need for your constantly evolving and fashionable drivel of the dastardly deeds of the evil Zionists. All it amounts to is poisonous bs.

          Since you have a bad case of 1948-itis, and a penchant for 1990′s terminology, i.e., “ethnic cleansing,” here’s bonus question just for you.
          How many of the Jews living in the West Bank (of Jordan(?), uh hum), East Jerusalem and Gaza were still there after the 1948 war?
          Ethnic cleansing? You betcha!

        • Mark Gardener’s “To which the answer, for most of us, would be a resounding yes” was clearly on a personal note. I don’t think it needs much reading into.

          Nor do I believe he thought he was speaking for all Jews.
          So what’s your point?

  5. I wish to comment on the passage starting from: “Hilley begins by reminding us what Ward originally said” and ending with: “When someone says “the Jews”, WE (my capitals) take that to mean “the Jews”.” Who is this “we”? Are “you” not lumping
    “yourselves” (? ourselves) together also? You need to qualify this “we”. I think “you” mean those “we” who watch and wait until a critic of Israel mis-speaks in any way. We (and I mean society at large) need to examine why “you” (? they) do this.
    Thank you. Elizabeth Morley

    • This is not just a case of “a critic of Israel [mis-speaking] in any way”. This involves an MP using and abusing the Holocaust to score votes.

      We (and I mean society at large) need to examine why “you” (? they) do this.

      But you speak only for yourself and like-minded individuals – not for UK society at large.

    • Yes, indeed. Who is this mystery group of people who take “the Jews” to mean the Jews? Is there a name for this group who lump themselves together? Could you help us out by giving it a name?
      I think most people take “the Jews” to mean the Jews, but hey, what do I know? As for a name to “lump” ourselves together with, how about “speakers of English.”

    • The problem Elizabeth is that the more Ward keeps trying to explain what he wants to say, the more he appears to repeat his gaff and does not shift from it. As pretz rightly says, Ward conflates Israel’s, the Jews, Jews (it really makes no difference) with Nazi atrocities. The “worst” settler or soldier cannot be compared to anything with what the Nazis did and Ward just doesn’t see it. His colleague Jenny Tonge gets into a similar whirlpool of confusion and mix of anti-semitism,, who tries to argue (miserably) that Israel is not Nazi Germany YET, but she fears that it might turn into a Nazi state if allowed to continue.

      These are supposed to be educated people with some knowledge of events in history. They have proven to be nothing less than the scum they believe they are opposing. The royal “we” don’t like it.

    • A non-specific “us” includes everyone since its a comment about an individuals belief informing others, rather than a generalization about one group, then the two can be compared.

      Ward is guilty of not only viewing Jews as a collective but also casting a negative light on ALL Jews because the natural conclusion of his contention, that Jews haven’t learnt from the Holocaust (besides being offensive and wrong) is that they need another holocaust to teach them again.

      • “”Ward is guilty of not only viewing Jews as a collective”

        During a Radio 4 news clip yesterday (19/02/13) David Cameron, on his visit to India, referred to” the Indians”.Probably because that is what they are. How else should he, could he have addressed them? All the same, I held my breath, spatula raised in mid air, (I was in the kitchen at the time). Oh no, I gasped out loud. You’re done for now, Cameron lad. Why I should care,don’t ask. I’ve never voted Tory in my life and never will; but anyway, another career in ruins, says I. Apparently not. No front page headlines, no social network explosion, no witch hunt vendetta calling for Cameron’s resignation or him to be strung by his bollic*s from Big Ben. (Bolli*ks being the operative word in all of this ) Why not? Have I missed something? What ARE ‘we’ to call them err, those err, y’know, the folks with the big bent hooters? OMG! Anti Semite, Anti Semite! I mean to say, the Welsh are Taffy’s, the Scots are Jocks, the Irish, Micks, the English, Brits, err, B’stards? You get the picture. So WHAT is the difference between Cameron referring to ‘The Indians’ “AS A COLLECTIVE” and David Ward calling ‘The J*ws’ The J”ws? Monty Python / ‘Life of Brian’ would have a field day here. “Who are you calling ‘Big Nose’?? Pathetic.

        • Are you really that stupid Miss Costello, or are you just one of those who cannot explain this innate illogical hatred some people harbour for Jews?

          Citizens of India are Indians, ditto Wales/Welsh, Ireland/Irish, England/English, France/French, Israel/Jew- oops Israeli. It is clear David Ward was talking of how he is convinced that Arabs are treated as badly as Jews were treated in Nazi Germany, not by Israelis, but by Jews. After all he said so, very clearly and in fact doesn’t deny it.

          It seems he has concrete evidence he hasn’t shared with us that Arabs by their millions are herded into cattle trucks, moved around the country for days on end without food, water, toilets or or any other amenities afforded people in a civilised world, then ushered into camps, the strong to work unpaid as slaves, the weak, women and children shuffled into faux showers to be gassed, their gold teeth extracted as loot, their hair cut off to stuff mattresses, and their bodies incinerated in specially designed ovens having been shovelled inside by fellow Arab inmates on the false understanding that they wouldn’t be next in line for such culling.

          I wonder if Mr Ward can provide some directions as to where he has witnessed this insane behaviour being enacted anywhere in Israel? (He could of course use Waze to locate these places if he doesn’t know his way around – trust those darned Joos-oops-Israelis for producing such an excellent locating device)

          Now tell me Miss Costello, is this anything Monty Python might write a sketch about? Maybe he would use the long noses as a characteristic to identify them as Arabs? Or maybe you could simply carry on mixing with your spatula in your kitchen where it seems your kitchen logic belongs.

  6. The David Ward Story in brief:

    “I am not a racist, I just don’t like the Jews… I mean Jews involved… I mean Nazis…er no I mean Israeli lobby machine… er I don’t know what I mean…I care deeply about my constituents…I apologise er.. I am not a racist…”

  7. 9.

    As you see fellow LibDem Jenny Tonge has close links with Hamas whose charter calls for genocide of all Jews worldwide. In case you missed it listen to this diatribe by one of its founders asking whether the Arabs are any less than he rest of those who tried to eradicate the Jews and tells us that there is no place for Jews amongst the nations of the world. http://vimeo.com/54138071

    This is the exclusive club these LibDems support because this is the club that created the term Palestinians as meaning the Arabs of Palestine to use as a pawn with which to whip the Jews, as the Jews alone sit at their very core, but will not succumb. And true to style, the non Jewish world has bought this propaganda hook line and sinker. What they always fail to understand is that it is not only the Jews in the Islamic sight. This very day another 4 Westerners have been kidnapped by Muslims in Nigeria and such happenings will continue until the West wakes up to save itself. But then what would they do with their Jew racism?

  8. “Ward has swapped his spade for a bulldozer.”
    Would that be the same bulldozer that destroys Palestinian homes, uproots Palestinian olive groves, cuts Palestinian farmers off from their Palestinian land, separates Palestinian families via the ISRAELI Apartheid separation wall,? And let’s not mention checkpoints. Don’t even GO there. No one goes ANYWHERE if you’re Palestinian in zionist israel, Of course, wait for it; “It’s all those wicked terrorists fault” Yeah right. I thought it might be. Try looking in the mirror, sometime. Not a pretty sight.

    • I agree with you Miss costello, these poor Palestinian victims being curtailed of their most basic human rights to massacre Israelis in pizzerias and on buses…and all of this disgrace by those arrogant Jews who can’t appreciate your European grandeur and culture not to speak about your glorious traditional tendency for becoming genocidal time and again…

      • If that’s the best you can come up with, I wouldn’t bother. The facts, statistics, video, photographic evidence, Israeli human rights organisations, (to which I take my hat off) , Enough broken UN resolutions to cover the Apartheid wall twice over, breach of international law, etc, ad nauseum etc, IS ALL THERE- IF- you care to look for it; which will far outweigh anything you scrape up from the bottom of the hasbara barrel. I take my leave of this revolting blog. First and last visit. Good riddance!

        • “I take my leave of this revolting blog. First and last visit. Good riddance!”

          They always say they’ll go, and yet they never do.

        • Before you close the door Miss costello it is ad nauseam. I expect a better level of Latin education from your kind superior human rights warrior.

    • You could move to Gaza with your pal Abbot and make some comic sketches to the Salafist audience. They’ll love to cut your head off.

    • There are no Palestinians living in Israel. Israelis live in Israel, Jews, Arabs, Christians, Muslims, athiests, B’Hai and some. Palestinians live….. maybe in apartheid Jordan?

    • Miss Costello,
      It seems your quickly coming out of the closet.
      ” No one goes ANYWHERE if you’re Palestinian in zionist israel,”
      Actually, Ms. “Ward”, if you are a “Palestinian” in Israel, i.e., Israeli Arab, you can go anywhere you like. Do you not know that?
      For about 35 years, while the PLO was deciding whether or not to destroy Israel (it seems they’ve not given up on the idea), it seems that Palestinians from the territories were able to pretty much enter and leave Israel proper at will. Oh, but let’s not blame the security barrier, oh, do excuse me, the “apartheid wall,” on the “wicked” terrorists, just because they were blowing up people on buses, in pizzerias, etc. No! That wouldn’t be fair. The “apartheid wall” is obviously there to keep the Jews and Arabs on one side ethnically and racially separated from the Arabs and Jews on the other side. Is there a clearer case of out and out racism anywhere in the world, oh excuse me again, I mean “on the planet?” If there is, I’d like to see it, huh?
      This one I just love: “cuts Palestinian farmers off from their Palestinian land..”
      Presumably which they work with their Palestinian farm tools, while wearing their Palestinian clothes over their Palestinian underwear in their Palestinian homeland (between the river and the sea TM) for 9,000 Palestinian years, where their Palestinian ancestors like Palestinian Moses and Palestinian Jesus once walked?

    • You mean the bulldozers that tear down illegally built homes? Go build a house in Central Park; see what happens. Perhaps you would like to plant an olive grove on the White House lawn; see what happens.

      What Palestinian land are you referring to? And how are they being cut off? You need to be more specific if I am to make you out to look a complete fool.

      This “ISRAELI Apartheid separation wall” you speak of, can you describe it? Let me help you. It’s a fence, 97% fence. Only 3% is wall to protect civilians from Hamas sniper fire. It is a fence, like at the border between America and Mexico, to keep illegals and terrorists out. To claim it is an apartheid wall, you have to first prove Israel is an apartheid regime. Checkpoints, for the purpose of this discussion, follow from the same desires for the fence between Gaza/West Bank and Israel. In fact, the fence actually reduces the amount of checkpoints and roadblocks needed, leading to greater mobility and freedom of movement.

      Palestinians have work permits, to work, in Israel. It appears quite a few Palestinians can go anywhere in secular and democratic Israel.

      • She’s obviously used to forums where everyone agrees with her, and thinks that’s called debate.
        Example:
        Ms. Archibald: “I think the Jews, excuse me “Israelis” are almost as bad as the Nazis.”
        Mr. Stephens: “Why, I think they’re equally as bad.”
        Ms. Costello: “They’re 10 times worse as sure as I flip flapjacks with my spatula in my kitchen.”

        …and the decision is unanimous…Ms. Costello wins the “debate!”

    • …bulldozer that destroys Palestinian homes…
      …the ISRAELI Apartheid separation wall…
      … No one goes ANYWHERE if you’re Palestinian in zionist israel,…

      In the kitchen of the costellos this is called debate…

  9. Have you seen the Pianist? Do you not think the Wall surrounding the ghetto looks very much like the so-called security wall built around the Palestinians. Is it Anti-Semitic to ask how a people who experienced the Ghettos and its inhumanity create similar ghettos for another group of people.

    • Have you seen this film? It’s about your leader, Amin al Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, meeting with his buddy, Adolf Hitler. You will surely enjoy it:

      Yeah, your “people” had a nazi war-criminal as supreme leader. It’s for this kind of people that the security barrier was erected.

    • Well said, Wasim. But you’re wasting your time here, my friend. No one is remotely interested in the wealth of both factual and historical evidence with regard to what took place over six decades between the ancient land of Palestine and the artificially created state of israel; legacy of the shameful Balfour declaration, which even the most revered israeli / zionist politicians of the day eventually admitted to- and are down on record as saying so. These buffoons would deny even that! The only thing that comes out of their mouths is lies, half truths and more lies, together with ‘make it up as you go along’ hasbara fantasy. I’ve taken part on many same subject blogs, but I’ve yet to find a more repugnant bunch as this lot.The level of debate is better suited to a comic book, with its highly personal ,child like, (LITERAL, in my case ) name calling, such as my surname. Save your integrity, Wasim. Take a leaf out of ‘The Nazarene’s’ book.Shake the dust from your feet and get out of here. I am.

      • What a perfect gem! A “Nazarene” worshipper kind of Jew hater is kissing the behind of a Hamasnik kind of fascist! Couldn’t make it up…

      • “the ancient land of Palestine and the artificially created state of israel”

        Hilarious! I notice Palestine gets the upper case, proper noun treatment and Israel doesn’t. Nice touch.
        This Jew-hating ignoramus is now fully out of the closet, and doing her own version of “Who’s on first.”

      • “the artificially created state of israel”

        As opposed to the artificially created states of Transjordan (now the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan), Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan…

    • “Wasim,”
      You’re attempted comparison of the Warsaw Ghetto to a security barrier put in place to protect the lives of civilians is abhorrent.

  10. Wasim, they are exactly the same, The Jews of Warsaw were known to visit the markets, the restaurants and to use the public transport system in order to blow up themselves among civilians. So called security wall? It is called security barrier and it saves many Jewish and Arab lives. This fact must be very disconcerting from your perspective but what can we do? Life is tough…

  11. “1400 Palestinians killed in 2008/2009 during the Israeli attack on Gaza”
    By your Hamas buddies who were using the civilians as human shields, you mean, ya wasmat ‘aar?

    “another outburst by the Israelis”.
    “Outburst”? So trying to stop your terrorist buddies from shooting rockets at Israel is called an “outburst” in your world?

  12. No Peter I know you from the days you use to belong to the Hustadrut when its charter did not allow Arabs to join it. If the Israelis want to be fascist and racist that is fine but the world does not have to like them for being racist.
    Get that thorn off you ass it will be the death of you.

    • Wasim let’s try some facts for a change:
      1.If you know me from the Histadrut then you must be smoking some very bad stuff – you should stop it immediately.
      2. If you think that the Histadrut doesn’t or didn’t accept Arab members then your studies of the Protocols damaged your nanosized brain beyond any possibility to fix it.
      3. The Hamas charter is a totally incoherent religiofascist rambling of some delusional fossils from the Middle-ages and it is one of the most racist anti-Semitic document of our age. Let me quote some interesting details:
      Article Twenty-Two: The Powers which Support the Enemy
      The enemies have been scheming for a long time, and they have consolidated their schemes, in order to achieve what they have achieved. They took advantage of key elements in unfolding events, and accumulated a huge and influential material wealth which they put to the service of implementing their dream. This wealth [permitted them to] take over control of the world media such as news agencies, the press, publication houses, broadcasting and the like. [They also used this] wealth to stir revolutions in various parts of the globe in order to fulfill their interests and pick the fruits. They stood behind the French and the Communist Revolutions and behind most of the revolutions we hear about here and there. They also used the money to establish clandestine organizations which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests. Such organizations are: the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, Lions Clubs, B’nai B’rith and the like. All of them are destructive spying organizations. They also used the money to take over control of the Imperialist states and made them colonize many countries in order to exploit the wealth of those countries and spread their corruption therein. As regards local and world wars, it has come to pass and no one objects, that they stood behind World War I, so as to wipe out the Islamic Caliphate. They collected material gains and took control of many sources of wealth. They obtained the Balfour Declaration and established the League of Nations in order to rule the world by means of that organization. They also stood behind World War II, where they collected immense benefits from trading with war materials and prepared for the establishment of their state. They inspired the establishment of the United Nations and the Security Council to replace the League of Nations, in order to rule the world by their intermediary. There was no war that broke out anywhere without their fingerprints on it
      ….
      Article Twenty-Eight…We cannot fail to remind every Muslim that when the Jews occupied Holy Jerusalem in 1967 and stood at the doorstep of the Blessed Aqsa Mosque, they shouted with joy: “Muhammad is dead, he left daughters behind.” Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. “Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.”

      This despicable glop is a perfect match to the social, scientific and technological development of the Muslim world.

      Get that thorn off you ass it will be the death of you.
      Congratulations Wasim – your ability to understand a simple sentence is on the same level with your charter. BTW outside Hamas and PLO circles death threats on a website are not fashionable anymore.

    • Well, I’ll tell ya what, Wasim, they’re not fascist nor racist and the “world” can get over it already.

  13. HAMAS charter does not allow them to admit racists to their organisation. I do not think you stand a chance.

    I thought you belonged to the Histadrut when its charter denied Arab membership.

    Now be a good boy and get that thorn off your ass before it kills you. .

  14. Peter

    We are both old enough to have lived the history Histrdrut refused to admit any Arab as a member until 1959 – Now at our age our memory may be playing tricks with us but this generally applies to short term memory. Perhaps that thorn is making you delusional. Do get it out and I say this out of concern for you.

    • We are both old enough to have lived the history Histrdrut refused to admit any Arab as a member until 1959
      You eat the shit of your teacher Tony Greenstein of the Electronic Intifada Wasim? (reading it don’t forget to hide your credit card and remember that he’s a descendant of monkeys and pigs too)
      he can’t remember his own lies from one paragraph to the next:
      Between 1948 and 1966, Palestinians living in Israel were subject to military rule. Due to Histadrut’s close affiliation to the military administration of the Mapai governments, Histadrut was not popular with Arab workers. Arab members to this day are seen as opportunists and collaborators
      ….
      In 1959 the Histadrut Convention decided to admit Arabs as members. They were however confined to an Arab (later disingenuously called the Integration Department) headed by a Jew.
      Maybe you are old enough to remember non-existing things – (called senility) but I’m not. BTW How could you know my age? Some delusion about being a clairvoyant?

  15. A friend has just told me that only nutters go on this site. I wish I had known that before I went on it! Now I’m a nutter too!!

  16. Peter so you are justifying fascism. Incidentally the wall did not do save the 1400 Palestinians killed in 2008/2009 during the Israeli attack on Gaza or the couple of hundred who died last November because of another outburst by the Israelis.

    When are the Israelis going to realize if you want to live in peace you have to allow others to live in peace too. You want respect than respect others.

  17. Peter so you are justifying fascism.
    Where did you get the idea that I’m a Fatah or Hamas member?

    When are the Israelis going to realize if you want to live in peace you have to allow others to live in peace too. You want respect than respect others.

    I see Wasim you say that the Israelis must allow the Palestinians free movement to be martyred among Israeli civilians and must welcome the Fajrs and Quassams falling on Sderot and Ashkelon. And FYI I need your respect as I need a thorn in my ass.

  18. If the Arabs want peace then repeated rocket attacks and suicide bombings against Israel sure seem like a strange way of achieving it.

    Like many countries, Israel has discovered that peace is achieved through superior firepower and the will to use it.

  19. Fascinating as I find this “debate”, I had to go back to the top of the page to remind myself what this thread is actually about.

    David Ward, anyone?

  20. I’m finding I need to do that a lot these days. David Ward’s bulldozer, ah yes!
    I think we can get rid of the “dozer” part of that and replace it perhaps with something else.

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