The Guardian’s Seumas Milne defends Palestinians’ right to kill Israelis


Guardian Associate Editor Seumas Milne just published an essay at ‘Comment is Free’ brimming with anger at Israel, and crowing about the glory of Hamas “resistance”.

In ‘Palestinians have the right to defend themselves‘, Nov. 20, Milne lashes out at Western leaders who have dared to proclaim that Israel has every “right to defend itself”, mocks reports by the “western media echo[ing] Israel’s claim that its assault is in retaliation for Hamas rocket attacks”, and condemns Netanyahu for “unleash[ing] a new round of bloodletting” which he attributes, naturally, to the upcoming Israeli elections.

Milne vilifies those who “portray Israel as some kind of victim with every right to ‘defend itself’ from attack from outside its borders” as engaging in “a grotesque inversion of reality”.

Declaring Gaza still “occupied”, Milne defends Hamas “resistance”, thus:

“So Gazans are an occupied people and have the right to resist, including by armed force (though not to target civilians), while Israel is an occupying power that has an obligation to withdraw – not a right to defend territories it controls or is colonising by dint of military power.

Even if Israel had genuinely ended its occupation in 2005, Gaza’s people are Palestinians, and their territory part of the 22% of historic Palestine earmarked for a Palestinian state that depends on Israeli withdrawal from the occupied West Bank and east Jerusalem. Across their land, Palestinians have the right to defend and arm themselves, whether they choose to exercise it or not.”

Seumas Milne is arguing that Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and ‘East Jerusalem’ have the right to murder Israelis.

And, if you’re wondering about the one qualification in Milne’s essay – that civilians can’t be intentionally targeted – a subsequent passage seems to clarify his meaning.

“Emboldened by the wave of change and growing support across the region, Hamas has also regained credibility as a resistance force, which had faded since 2009, and strengthened its hand against an increasingly discredited Palestinian Authority leadership in Ramallah in Ramallah. The deployment of longer-range rockets that have now been shown to reach Tel Aviv and Jerusalem is also beginning to shift what has been an overwhelmingly one-sided balance of deterrence. [emphasis added]

The Hamas rocket attacks he’s so proud of – ‘operations’ he’s hopeful may change the balance of power in the region – seem to fall outside of his definition of prohibited acts (which target civilians) and thus consistent with the overall Palestinian right of armed “resistance”.

Based on his text it seems the following is definitely justifiable:

  • Suicide bombings and other armed attacks which target the hundreds of thousands of Israelis serving in the IDF

And, the following is most likely justifiable:

  • Rockets launched indiscriminately at Israelis cities

While Milne’s justification, under the Guardian’s imprimatur, for the intentional killing of citizens of the Jewish state is not surprising in light of his history of praising anti-imperialist “resistance movements” across the globe, the mere fact that his latest argument is derivative – consistent with his broader political orientation – doesn’t make it any less repulsive.

 

140 comments on “The Guardian’s Seumas Milne defends Palestinians’ right to kill Israelis

  1. Seamus is probably ten thousand times more happy than I am when he sees a dead Palestinian baby, and I’m some rabid Zionist whose crazy enough not to see myself as a racist, hate mongering, land stealing Joo.

      • Actually, Fake, I happen to live in what was once known as a segregated neighborhood, and so yes, the locals consider me an outsider. They haven’t tried to kill me, though, and over the years, have come to appreciate what I bring to the neighborhood.

        As opposed to your case, which is around the lines of your mother begging and pleading for you to finally get a real job and to finally leave her basement. I guess she doesn’t understand that the mentally imbalanced make the worst deep fry cooks. Oh well. It sucks to be her, eh?

      • I live on land that was taken from the Ohlone Miwok, and then from Mexico. We call it ‘Northern California’. Both times, it was taken by people who had no historical tie to the land, and who made up a much smaller minority than Jews did in Mandate Palestine, and who didn’t pay for the land they started farming.

        I share the region with a hell of a lot of people who are content to rest their asses on this stolen land while screaming hysterically about how a failed attempt at partition between ethnic groups in the Middle East is the biggest injustice existing in the world today.

        I am a Zionist. I am an American. I occupy stolen land in the second role, not in the first. And I am very clear about that.

        • I see no relation between the colonization of California, and the return of the jews to their homeland from which they were deprived for centuries, and that was granted to them by a UN resolution.

          • Because when G-d spoke to Moses and said to him to choose where he wanted the flock to settle, and Moses, who had a stutter, started to say, “Ca-Ca-Ca-”

            And the Lord said, “Canaan. And so it shall be.”

            *lightning, thunder, birds squawk*

            “No. Ca-Ca-California.”

  2. Its time to tear the mask off these hypocrites and expose them for what they are.
    Just ask them next time what exactly is G.B. doing in the Falklands? Why are they still occupying Ireland? What have they done to the Aborigines in Australia and the Indians in N. America? Who exactly sent the Pox to the Indians inside blankets? What have they done in Kenya against the Mow Mow? Not to mention India Pakistan and their double crossing of the Jews in Palestine.

    • Avinoam – the thing is, Milne claims not to be a fan of imperialism full stop, and would certainly not support any of the actions you mention, because they were committed by “Western” powers.

      What he would struggle with, however, is in criticising the Soviet imperialism in most of Asia and Eastern Europe through much of the 20th century, Stalin’s purges that killed some 10,000,000 people etc etc. He would also refuse to condemn the Islamic imperialism that has seen the tribe spread from a small part of Saudi Arabia to cover 22 nations across southern Asia, North and East Africa. Imperialism is BAD (unless it’s Marxists or Muslims doing it, of course).

  3. Milne’s opening line: The way western politicians and media have pontificated about Israel’s onslaught on Gaza, you’d think it was facing an unprovoked attack from a well-armed foreign power

    The way Milne pontificates, you’d think that Hamas et al sending missiles at Israeli civilian targets was a provoked attack.

    However: Seumas Milne is arguing that Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and ‘East Jerusalem’ have the right to murder Israelis.
    Well, he’s not actually saying that – even if his general tone is aggressive.

    • Lower down Milne says: “the right to resist, including by armed force (though not to target civilians)”.

      So that’s hardly “arguing that Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and ‘East Jerusalem’ have the right to murder Israelis.”

      • “So that’s hardly ‘arguing that Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and ‘East Jerusalem’ have the right to murder Israelis.’”

        But that’s the modus operandi of their “resistance.” Where’s his recognition and condemnation of this? Hamas has been for years bombing Israel unprovoked (except by their own fanatical religious teachings). Why does Mr. Milne carry their water? How are Gazans occupied? Describing them as such is just an obscurantist’s fancy two-step. Too cute by half.

        • Jeff, Israeli airstrikes on Gaza have killed dozens of civilians, including women, children and babies.

          Why do you forget to mention this?

          • Any reason you forget about the thousands of rockets lobbed at ISRAELI civilians?
            You’re a revolting troll.

          • “Why do you forget to mention this?”

            Yes, I often forget to mention those things that aren’t the subject of my comment.

          • Gnat, I’m interested in the exact numbers of Palestinians killed by Israel. So far, I have read about 165 over 8 days, but nowhere can I find a breakdown of how many children, women, and rocket launchers were killed. Even if no terrorists were killed (which I highly doubt), these numbers average out to 20 people a day. Over an 8 day bombing campaign. 160 civilians is a lunch hour in Syria, and yet you’re all gung ho about how Israel is indiscriminately murdering Palestinians. Amazing.

          • “Jeff, Israeli airstrikes on Gaza have killed dozens of civilians, including women, children and babies.”

            Really! I didn’t realize it was that few! Thanks “Nat.” And congratulations to the IDF for showing how a moral military destroys hundreds of rocket launchers and munitions (while limiting civilian casualties) in a situation where they are planted in civilian neighborhoods in contravention of humanitarian law.

  4. So ok this isn’t a rhetorical question I really want to know. What rights do an occupied people have in resistance terms ? None ? Some ? If some,what ?

    • This is for you RZ
      Hungarian Nazis, Canadian Communists, Muslims, and Zionists of your kind are demonstrating in Toronto supporting your freedom-fighters. You must be proud…
      What rights do an occupied people have in resistance terms ?
      Must be the omnipotence of the Jews – keeping a people under occupation without any personnel in the occupied territory…

    • “So ok this isn’t a rhetorical question I really want to know. What rights do an occupied people have in resistance terms ? None ? Some ? If some,what ?”

      Here’s an answer just for you. Occupied is just a word. Let’s describe the situation. 40 odd years ago the Palestinians and their brothers, united in blood and religion, tried to wipe their neighbor off the map, they tried to acquire all of their territory by force. They lost, badly. They lost the West Bank, Gaza and Sinai.
      Unless Israel tries to annex these territories unilaterally, they have no right to resist, only an obligation to negotiate for territories lost due to their own aggression.
      P.S. Gaza is not occupied, at least not by Israel.

      • Furthermore, Jeff, they have been offered their own state in almost all the West Bank and Gaza a number of times, but this is not enough. They consider the WHOLE of historic Palestine to be “occupied”, and will not accept any deal that falls short of the end of Israel as a state with a Jewish nature.

        Sorry, “real”zionist, but noone has ANY right to resist the lawful existence of the State of Israel. If they want to end the “occupation” of the WB and Gaza, all they need do is say – OK, we agree to live in peace with you as our neighbour. That’s it. That’s all. Too much to ask? It seems so.

  5. My freedom fighters Peter ?

    So tell us Peter, in general terms, no need for referencing any particular occupation:

    What rights do an occupied people have, in resistance terms? None ? Some ? If some, what ? Like I said not a rhetorical question I really want to know.

    I don’t think Peter is going to be up to this. Anyone else ?

    • Maybe first tell me how is Gaza occupied and by whom?
      I’m not interested to be involved in theoretical discussions about the rights of occupied people. This is a thread about Gaza.

        • Nat dear your piss overflowed your nanosized brain. Do you really think that you can issue orders to me? I’m a reserve corporal. What is your rank? Obersturmbannfuhrer?

      • Peter is two cans short of a six-pack. I wouldn’t expect too many answers to questions that require the capacity for intelligent discussion from him!

        • Nat and Sanity your posts are much more fun than crucifying Jesus and killing babies for the Passover matzoh.

    • What rights do an occupied people have, in resistance terms? –
      To attack the occupiers military forces.
      Not to randomly fire thousands of rockets deliberately at civilians.
      Which occupied place are you referring to?
      Obviously not Gaza which is not occupied.
      So where?

      • well thanks for that censor. And I wasn’t referring to any occupied place. Just asking is all. A peg in the ground is worth ten in the bush.

      • Censorship, why did the IDF launch airstrikes over densely populated civilian areas, causing the death of dozens of civilians, including children – some less than one year old?

        • Nat,
          Your mother says she wants to know what you’ve been up to in the bathroom all this time with the door locked. She wants you to go to bed. Remedial reading begins in the morning.

        • Nat – the answer is obvious. It’s because Hamas launched their rockets, and stored their explosives and materiel in densely populated civilian areas. Do they not have any responsibility for this?

          Why, if Israel are so careless of civilian life, do they routinely leaflet areas they are going to strike to warn civilians to take shelter or leave the area? What warning do Hamas give to the residents of Ashkelon, Sderot, Tel Aviv that they are about to launch missiles at them? It’s only thanks to the care that Israel takes over the lives of its civilians (by installing siren systems, the iron dome, building shelters and safe rooms) that these random missiles have not caused carnage amongst the Israeli civilian population.

          I will repeat what I have said on countless occasions – the death of a single civilian, especially a child, is a tragedy, but sometimes military activity is necessary and in military action, civilian casualties are a certainty. The ratio of civilian:combatant casualties in Israeli military actions is exponentially lower than in any other asymetric conflict in history – and yet you harp on about it all the time.

  6. Al Guardian of Terror? Right to resistance is not allowing terror attacks, no war crimes and no crimes against humanity, everything the Hamas, islamic Djihad etc commit.
    Al Guardian defends that, in good old tradition of communist mass murder.
    The imagined oppressed are free of any responsibility and are free to murder due to the circumstances, whether social, ethnic, religious, sexual, gender or intelellectual, juristic, historical, there is no guilt, just the rightful innocence of the imagined victim or oppressed to take revenge, an argument of emotion where Nazis and communists were and are very close to each other, and where they finally unite, thanks to Israel.

    • Fritz you tell us what these rights don’t include. What rights, in resistance terms, DO an occupied people have ? None ? Some ? If some what ?

      • RZ you should post at the Electronis Intifada, Mondoweiss, or any other anti-semitic or neo-Nazi sites and you would be welcome. Are you some kind of masochist or are you paid by the Israeli hasbara as a faux anti-Israeli demonstrating every possible negative attributes of the kind?

          • As I informed you already Nat you are confusing me with someone else who gives a flying felafel about your orders. Seems to me you lost all of your remaining marbles calling this caricature of a troll gentleman. If he’s a gentleman then you must be Albert Einstein.

        • It’s actually hugely antisemitic in and of itself to accuse Jews of being antisemitic, such as you’re doing here with Mondoweiss. You may recall the Rio Ferdinand choc-ice comment?

          • Oh piss off “sanity”. The day you define what is and what is not antisemitism is not and will never be today.

          • I’m entitled to my views as much as asyone. That they are in line with the Stephen Laurence report is further backing to my case. You might do well to read up on Stephen Laurence, actually, it’ll help you educate yourself about racism.

          • “That they are in line with the Stephen Laurence report is further backing to my case”

            Sanity who is Stephen Laurence, and where can I read his report?

          • I’m entitled to my views as much as asyone.
            Correct. Even your kind of so called “anti-Zionists” are entitled to their disgusting views as any other Jew-haters are. This is an uncensored blog where even anti-semites can define what is anti-semitism and what is not.

          • Gerald, try Google. He did not write a report, he was murdered in a racist incident in London, and the legacy of his death has been to thoroughly shape anti-racism discourse in the UK and beyond.

          • Peter, please provide a link to where I have described myself as an ‘anti-Zionist’ or other evidence thereof. Please also provide evidence for the allegation that I might be a ‘Jew-hater’.

          • “Gerald, try Google. He did not write a report, he was murdered in a racist incident in London,…”

            Sanity so you are referring to the report of the inquiry into the murder of Stephen Lawrence? If that is the report you are referring to, then I have read it and am aware of the CPS Policy on Racist and Religious Crime which are based on the findings of the Macpherson Inquiry into Stephen Lawrence’s murder.

            I find it reprehensible that you would use the name of a murder victim, which you are unable to spell or remember, to attempt to back up your views. Your attempt to use his name and murder coupled with your cavalier approach to his name is a double insult to his memory and family for which you should hang your head in shame.

          • Dear Gerald, all ihave done on this website is to point out incidences of racism that no one else on this site appears to recognise or to want to do anything about. You all appear keener to continue jerking off over militarism.

            In the context of pointing out racism, I reference the most important event in shaping anti-racism discourse in the UK (appropriate of course because the Guardian is a UK newspaper) and you find this reprehensible? Obvioulsy you are complete moron.

          • Peter, please provide a link to where I have described myself as an ‘anti-Zionist’…
            You didn’t sanity I did. Maybe you didn’t realize either that I put the attribute “anti-Zionist” between inverted commas because this expression is only a mask of modern day anti-Semites.
            …Please also provide evidence for the allegation that I might be a ‘Jew-hater’.
            All of your posts here sanity are more than enough evidence of your being one.

          • Peter, there is this skill that a lot of people learn, which is called “reasoning”. You should try to learn it, since it will make your arguments much more persuasive.

            I assumed that you put “anti-Zionist” in speech marks because you were quoting,as is the normal usage. Perhaps you have your own individual usage which suits you just fine. In any case, your comments are patently moronic.

          • “Obvioulsy you are complete moron.”
            Sanity you attempted to cite a report, and recommended that others read it, when clearly you are ignorant of the report and its contents even the name of the murder victim that the Inquiry and Report was about.
            When your lies are clearly exposed you attempt to twist and turn then resort to insults.

            By the way it is spelt OBVIOUSLY, now what was that about a moron?
            Frankly I’d sooner be a moron than to sink as low as you have and use and pervert the name of a murder victim. Believe me if you were not already a self declared Wanker it is obvious from the content of your posts, and a lying one at that.

          • I assumed that you put “anti-Zionist” in speech marks because you were quoting,as is the normal usage

            From Wikipedia:
            In English writing, quotation marks or inverted commas (informally referred to as quotes or speech marks)[1] are punctuation marks surrounding a quotation, direct speech, or a literal title or name. Quotation marks can also be used to indicate a different meaning of a word or phrase than the one typically associated with it and are often used to express irony

            I forgot that you are a professor. What is your subject Sanity?

          • Gerald, you continue with your moronic comments. On a blog, when writing quickly, and with my other hand sometimes otherwise engaged, it is common to make spelling mistakes, especially with names that can commonly be spelt more than one way. That this is the substance of your argument (i.e. the spelling) shows what an ass-wipe nutbag you are.

          • Pedro, try to “reason”. Try to make a case for the things you are saying. Try to put together a logical argument. All of these things will help people who have concludwied that you are batshit crazy to think again. Until then, I think most people have made up their minds.

          • All of these things will help people who have concludwied that you are batshit crazy
            Concentrate Sanity. Put your other hand on the keyboard too where Mummy can see it,

          • We could go down the road of correcting spelling, grammar, usage, etc. It’s not that helpful. I think we can all agree that the occasinal spelling mistake on a blog is harly a capital offence. So, how about instead of pernickety-ness about spelling, you get on and start providing some reasoning?

        • peterthehungarian corporal: RZ you should post at the Electronis Intifada, Mondoweiss, or any other anti-semitic or neo-Nazi sites and you would be welcome. Are you some kind of masochist or are you paid by the Israeli hasbara as a faux anti-Israeli demonstrating every possible negative attributes of the kind?

          • Sanity I have to correct a misunderstanding here: I don’t have any intention with reasoning or discussing anything with anti-Semites like you. I made an error involving myself in a shouting match with you – an especially obnoxious, vile and ignorant representative of them who is masquerading as a human right warrior and obviously lying about his/her social status bragging about being a professor when obviously s/he is hardly literate.
            I should have pay attention to the saying that “Never argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
            So now I’ll put an end to our extremely uninteresting dialog and leave you to your usual activity of posting here ignorant, hateful and boring crap.
            Cifwatch must be lucky hosting you here, you (although not alone but in a head to head contest with Nat and Richard) are the best proof that sadly even in the XXI. century it is necessary to fight against Jew hate.

          • Peter, there you again, making unsupported claims. If you want to brand me an anti-semite, then please bring out the evidence. If you can’t then retract the claim. If you don’t understand how basic an idea this is, then you really do need to go back to school, pronto.

            I may be all sorts of things, and you throw the kitchen sink at me in your comment, but I do take big exception to your accusation of antisemitism. Take it back or bring out the evidence. Otherwise, shut it.

      • What rights, in resistance terms, DO an occupied people have ?

        Launching missiles at civlian centers and bombing civilian buses are certainly not among them.

        • Or join me in my ignorance and just say ” I don’t know ” Pretz your man for all seasons routine on a blog site is hilarious. We all love you there I said it. Any chance now of finding out what you really think ? ok maybe that was a bit optimistic. Any chance now of finding out what you really feel ? I assume you do have feelings.

          • I assume you do have feelings.

            As if I would bother posting a proper response to a twat who says something like that to me.

  7. RZ
    Just now bus bombed in TA
    What would you say if your daughter/son was on
    Do you justify anything as long as jews are killed you rabid ibecile

    • Apparently celebratory gunfire rang out in Gaza City when the news came in. It was a civilian bus!
      Scumbags.

    • iva I bet I have a closer experience than you on this one. In 2006 my daughter was in London ( south of the river ) and trapped there incommunicado when the place shut down because of the terrorist attacks on the transport system

      It was very harrowing. Now I have told you my story. You tell me yours.

      Count to ten and then call me an imbecile again.

      • “In 2006 my daughter was in London ( south of the river ) and trapped there incommunicado when the place shut down because of the terrorist attacks on the transport system
        It was very harrowing. Now I have told you my story.”

        ‘realzionist’ I was working in London for most of 2006, both sides of the river.
        Which terrorist attacks do you mean?
        I’m aware of the attacks a year earlier in 2005, but not 2006.
        Surely as they were ‘very harrowing’ you would not have forgotten when they were?
        Unless of course, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 you are an imbecile.

      • RZ
        I came back from Israel barely 10days ago. I am an Israeli and I have grown up there.I was there during intifada 1/2 when buses cafes where blown to bits friends got killed and maimed.
        and where were you? sitting in your arse in UK/US singing Kumbalaya and preaching to people under constant threat from your bossom buddies.
        You are a sorry human being and your alias is a joke.
        Gaza is NOT occupied!! No they dont have the right to to terrorize an other country and get away with it.!!!
        I wont reply anymore any of your imbecile post your only excuse is that you dont have an idea what you talking about.

        • you dont have an idea what you talking about.

          That could be why I ask questions. I just don’t seem to be able to get any answers.

          • “you dont have an idea what you talking about.”
            reallyinggit coming from the person who can’t remember what year his daughter was caught up in a terrorist attack, that is a bit rich to say the least.

            Of course that is if this alleged daughter exists or is she a figment of your imagination, or an outright lie, the same as the usual content of your posts?

            If you can’t get any answers then try and find a blog/forum where they are on the same level as you. Try ‘googling’ “anti-semitic retards” or just look in a mirror it will be the same result.

      • Oh well done, “real”zionist. You have a second hand experience of having a relative in a city at the same time that a terrorist attack took place (on the other side of the city). Your credentials are fully established, and any comments you make from this point on will be accepted as words of wisdom from one who knows what it is like to suffer.

        And I’m not getting into a “I’ve suffered more from terrorism than you” debate, but your story simply doesn’t cut the mustard. Sorry.

  8. There are clear-cut anti-Semitic BTL comments on the Milne thread.

    Then there’s the annoyingly smug and ignorant poster savymum (a “contributing poster”!) who says “I worry that the answer might be one that dares not speak its name – the Palestinians will have to ‘go’, to make living space for the settlers and security for them, and Israel as a whole.”

    “Living space” is not a standard English term. I wonder what she was thinking of/suggesting there …

  9. Pingback: Oh , The Courage Of Those Poor Persecuted Palestinians « YouViewed/Editorial

  10. realzionist says,
    So ok this isn’t a rhetorical question I really want to know. What rights do an occupied people have in resistance terms ? None ? Some ? If some,what ?

    The Palestinians are an invented people who are really Arabs from the surrounding Arab countries.
    There was never in history any state called Palestine governed by Palestinians.
    The real question should be, should the real Philistines who came from Crete to Israel 3000 years ago and were not Arabs or Muslims tell the Fakestinians to stop using their name.
    Gaza is 100% controlled by Islamo fascists Hamas.
    Hamas is firing rockets at Israel civilians.
    So ofcourse Israel is going to respond to these Islamo fascists.
    Jerusalem belongs to Israel.
    Its been the Capital of only the Jewish people.
    Jerusalem has had a Jewish population majority since the late 1850s – that’s 130 years already, before ‘Palestinianism’ was invented:
    Jews were expelled from East-Jerusalem by the Jordanian occupation at 1948. They lived in East-Jerusalem for thousands of years. They returned to their homes after Israel liberated the city in 67.
    Jerusalem was never in history the capitol of any Arab country.
    ISRAEL which is defending itself against Pan-Arabism, Arab imperialism and Arabization of the Middle East – that is the “problem you dont like.
    The West Bank’s real name is Judea and Samaria named after Jews.

      • Bad post, Ed. I don’t have time to go through it line by line (nor, clearly, did you, since it’s littered with unverifiable claims), so I’ll just pick you up on your first two points:

        Point one. The Palestinians are an invented people (i.e. ‘nation’), but only in the same way that the French are an invented people, the British are an invented people, the Americans are an invented people, and the Jews – when taken to constitute the ‘nation’ of Israel – are an invented people, as the Israeli historian Shlomo Sand has pointed out.

        Point two. I hate to be the one to tell you this, but there never was a State of Israel in the land of Palestine before 1948 either. By which I mean, whatever Biblical kingdom the founders of Israel claimed to be reinstating in Israel’s declaration of independence, it was categorically not a “state” in the way that that term is used today. So it is laughably irrelevant to say that there “never was in history a state called Palestine governed by Palestinians”: because there never was in history a state called Israel governed by Israelis, either. All states are, at some point, “invented”.

        But Ed, don’t take my word for any this. Just read any serious book on the subject of nationalism that’s been written in the past four decades – starting, I’d suggest, with Benedict Anderson’s ‘Imagined Communities’. I think you’d get a lot from it.

        You might also want to look up what it says in the UN Charter about the right of groups of people to determine themselves.

        After all that, do come back on here and tell us a little more about Palestinian nationalism, which I’m sure we’ll all be eager to hear.

        • Wow, chris(jamescox),

          That was quite a bullpucky answer you gave. I loved the part about there never having been a Jewish state “in the modern sense” in what you prefer to call the “land of Palestine.” Very slick, Israel – historically illegitimate, “land of Palestine”- legitimate. Who feeds you this stuff?

          • Jeff, I didn’t say that Israeli is “historically illegitimate” – you’ve made that up. I said that Israel, as a modern state among other states, is the result of the process of “invention” – of institutions, of borders (ahem), of (a modernized) language, etc etc.

            So let’s leave the question of “legitimacy” aside. It’s a non-debate: Israel is a legitimate state, period.

            Moreover, I didn’t say that the land of Palestine is “legitimate” – how can a land be legitimate? It’s just a piece of land. However, if you mean that the land of Palestine has gone by that name for over 2000 years then, yes, you’re quite right on that.

            But as for the point that there never was a State of Israel in the modern sense of the term in the land of Palestine – you didn’t actually offer any argument against that, so I take it we’re in agreement?

          • “However, if you mean that the land of Palestine has gone by that name for over 2000 years then, yes, you’re quite right on that.”
            That is the bullpucky part.

  11. Hamas wants war? Give it to them! You will find them hiding behind their women and children!
    Then again, this shouldn’t be a shock considering their prophet Mohammad married a 9 year old girl.

      • “Keep it coming Ed you are burying the credibility of this site. Though not single handedly.”
        No, you’re helping out in no small way. But neither Ed’s comments nor yours can “bury” the credibility of this site. You can only bury yourselves. Good luck with that.

    • Margaret I of Sweden was married at the age of ten.

      Margaret of France, who married Henry II’s heir, married at two.

      Isabella of Valois, who married Richard II, was six.

      I’m sorry, but this endless fascination with Mohammed’s marriage to Aisha simply shows a shocking lack of information about the medieval world.

      • Ordinarily Makabit I wouldn’t be so trivial but since you started it….Mohamed way preceded the medieval world. I may not know too much about the medieval world but I know more or less when it was.

        • Oh, give me a chance to avoid making turkey, why don’t you?

          Actually, you’re mistaken. The Middle Ages are commonly considered to begin with the fall of Rome, approximately 500 CE, which places them well in Mohammed’s era, You may be thinking of the High and Late Middle Ages, which is what we normally think of as ‘medieval’, and which indeed are much after Mohammed.

          The problem with finding European Christian examples for earlier, and closer to Mohammed’s time, is that the dates of women’s births are often very dicey, and to be honest, also that I know less about, say, the Byzantine royal women.

          My point is that, while the marriage to Aisha is often pointed to by people who object to Islam as some sort of proof that Mohammed was a pedophile, or otherwise scummy and abnormal, the fact is that all his other wives of whom we know were adult women (Khadijah much older than he), all of them, IIRC, widows. Aisha takes on enormous symbolic significance as his only virgin wife, and also because the marriage to her (and more importantly, to her highly influential family) was one of the major political turning points of very early Islam.

          This points not to a man with an unhealthy interest in little girls, but to a man establishing himself as a political power, and making a crucial marriage alliance in a manner that was unremarkable in its day. That said, I tend to suspect that the wait to consummate the marriage was actually until she reached menarche, and that the age of nine mentioned in the texts is a somewhat overheated overemphasis on her youth and purity. Who the hell kept exact birth date records in the Arabian desert at the time?

          All of this said, I really didn’t think that the person to snipe about this would be you. I was trying, in my way, to draw attention to the fact that “Ha ha, your prophet was a pedophile” is not a very sensible thing to say about a medieval political and religious figure who married a very young girl.I hadn’t identified you as one of the folks who was really invested in making Islam look bad around here.

          I now return to cranberry sauce and worrying about how many rockets from Gaza there will be today.

    • Israel escalated first. Not Hamas. That evidence points more to Israel wanting war, not the other way round.

      • sanity you should go back and finish your prefered pass time maybe after you will be less insane .Why would Israel want to have war with Hamas ? we must enjoy the rockets falling in our people/children? we love our children and dont send them in harms way., but than how would you know….

      • Leaving aside the evidence of Hamas’ escalation, are you seriously telling us that shooting first is less of a sign of wanting war than responding to being shot at?

        • “Leaving aside the evidence of Hamas’ escalation, are you seriously telling us that shooting first is less of a sign of wanting war than responding to being shot at?”

          They’ve found a way around that problem, Makabit, i.e., just make the start time be whenever Israel first responds and then say they started it, as the BBC and Guardian do, just to name two.

          • I have noticed that. it’s a curious approach, but it’s possible that as a former history major, I’m just too hung up on timelines and cause and effect.

          • “but it’s possible that as a former history major, I’m just too hung up on timelines and cause and effect.”

            It’s not you, it’s them.

        • What I’m saying is that there were tit for tat attacks going on for the past few months. These were more or less manageable for both sides. Israel took the decision to extrajudicially murder a Hamas leader, an escalation in anyone’s book.

          What’s the evidence of Hamas’s escalation?

          • This of course doesn’t asnwer my question. Can I suggest, Pedro, that if you don’t want to answer my questions that you just refrain from posting after my comments?

          • Can I suggest, Pedro, that if you don’t want to answer my questions that you just refrain from posting after my comments?

            Pedro?! Are you transformed yourself to some kind of saint Teresa of Avila?
            When I coment on your posts Sanity I don’t have the slightest intention to answer you. I don’t do dialogue with your kind of faux antiracist jerks. As I stated before showing the other posters your real nature is more fun than crucifying saviors, poisoning wells and killing babies that’s all.
            And your suggestion? Let me not answer to it as you suggested.

          • peterthehungarian cororal: Pedro?! Are you transformed yourself [into?] to some kind of saint Teresa of Avila?
            When I coment on your posts Sanity I don’t have the slightest intention to answer you [of anwering you?]. I don’t do dialogue with your kind of faux antiracist jerks. As I stated before showing the other posters your real nature is more fun than crucifying saviors, poisoning wells and killing babies that’s all.
            And your suggestion? Let me not answer to it as you suggested.

  12. Pingback: BBC website promotes Guardian’s Milne | BBC Watch

  13. Milne is one neo-fascist antisemitic bastard who has never met an Islamist terrorist he didn’t like. His raison d’etre is spouting dehumanising hate propaganda against Israelis. He appears totally incapable of displaying even an ounce of sympathy towards them, as they are under continuous attack by Hamas – an attitude which I find chilling and very disturbing. But that way he certainly perfectly embodies the famous Guardian ‘spirit’.

    • That Milne is supporting and applauding terror attacks by Hamas on Israeli civilians thus is part and parcle of the sick twisted logic that goes with his extremist world view.

  14. Sure, the Palestinians have rights to defend themselves. However, they don’t have the right to attack Israeli civilians. Nor is Gaza “occupied” – you won;t find a single Israeli there. Hamas rules Gaza with an iron fist and is happy to sacrifice all residents of its Gaza in its only true goal – the destruction of israel.

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