Yachad: UK Jews TOGETHER in contempt for Israeli democracy


There is a long-overdue conversation which must be had. It will not be a particularly pleasant one, but it is essential all the same. 

When the self-defined ‘pro Israel, pro peace’ group Yachad set up shop in the UK last year, its statement of core principles placed it firmly on the Left of the political map. Whilst history has proved time and time again that ‘Left’ does not necessarily equate to ‘democratic’, Yachad does claim to be “committed to Israel as a democratic and Jewish state”. 

Let us, for the time being, put to one side the irksome fact that despite the above claim, Yachad appears to have no qualms about co-operating and collaborating with a whole plethora of organisations and individuals decidedly less than dedicated to maintaining a democratic Jewish state – including its support for the non-negotiated unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state and its latest excursion into Ben White territory, as documented here

The conversation I believe we must have is about democracy, and it is one which also applies to other bodies acting in a similar manner to Yachad, such as J Street and the New Israel Fund. 

A basic principle of democracy is that the citizens of a given nation together, by means of universal suffrage, determine the policy, laws and actions of their state. Democracy is also based upon the important principles of equality and freedom. Under the democratic system in the State of Israel – to which Yachad claims to be committed – every citizen over the age of 18, whose name appears on the electoral roll, may vote. That right to vote is not, of course, dependent upon religious affiliation, ethnic background, wealth, or any other factor which would undermine the principle of universal suffrage. 

 And yet, despite not being citizens of the State of Israel and therefore not eligible to take part in the democratic system, the members of Yachad and similar groups seek to influence the policies, laws and actions of that state. In fact, they seek to side-step Israeli democracy which, despite their fine declarations, is obviously something which deeply disappoints them. 

The members of Yachad are of course by no means the first to be disappointed by and frustrated with the results of democracy. In fact, such disappointments can be said to be an inherent part of the system, but the art of preserving and safeguarding a democracy is rooted in the recognition of the very simple fact that although it is a system under which one does not always get the results one wished for, those results must be upheld and respected all the same. 

From the Geneva Initiative to J Street and Yachad, there have long been those who tried to circumvent the will of the people when the will of the people did not square up to their own ideals and expectations. The common denominator between such bodies is that they are convinced that they know better than the Israeli voters – whom only they can save from themselves. 

And so, such groups (claiming to speak for an unquantifiable number of people because they have been elected by no-one) will try to bypass the annoyances produced in plenty by the democracy they claim to uphold through the use of money and the influence it buys: antithesis to the idea of democracy if ever there was one, as well as being inherently foreign to Left-wing ideals. 

A clear example of this was seen only a couple of weeks ago in a Knesset sub-committee meeting in which the unelected leader of an unelected body claiming to represent British Jews (who, incidentally, also took credit for the formation of Yachad) informed those present that for the UK Jewish community to be effective in the support of Israel, the voices of their leaders (ie the speaker) must be heard within Israel. 

But not only is the idea that interested parties unable and unwilling to take part in the democratic process in Israel should bypass that process by means of hard cash abhorrent. The members of these foreign Jewish groups also seem remarkably unconcerned by the fact that 20% of Israeli voters are not Jewish. What moral right can Jewish groups such as Yachad claim to have as they coincidentally attempt to influence the futures and lives of Israel’s Muslim, Druze, Christian, Bahai, Bedouin and Circassian citizens? 

One will often hear the argument put forward that because all Jews are in theory entitled to make aliyah and become Israeli citizens, the voices of Jews abroad – members of the Jewish nation – should be heard in Israel on an equal footing. That argument is, of course, not supported by Israeli law, which makes taking part in the democratic process conditional upon citizenship. Even if we were to put aside the fact that the right to vote is dependent upon certain obligations such as living in the country, paying taxes and contributing military service, there is another facet to that argument too. 

The voices we hear from abroad trying to influence Israeli policy come exclusively from the West. Even if one did contemplate the idea that Jews abroad should have a stake in deciding Israel’s future, one must necessarily include in that Jewish voices from outside the English-speaking bubble. And that would include voices which represent a very different Jewish experience to the one exemplified by groups such as Yachad or J Street. 

Such different voices exist inside Israel too – where not only Jewish experiences are relevant – and indeed they are part of what shapes the choices made by Israeli voters. What groups such as Yachad and J Street fail to appreciate time and time again (somewhat condescendingly and with more than a whiff of old colonial-style attitudes), is that the Western, left-liberal, English-speaking approach to the many thorny problems which Israel faces is far from being the only legitimate view-point. 

The voices of Jews expelled from Arab lands, or of Israeli Druze and Bedouin, or of the former Lebanese civilians who found refuge in Israel 12 years ago (to name but a few) are no less legitimate or important because those groups do not have vast amounts of money with which to purchase influence.  

That is why we have democracy in Israel: so that all the members of our beautifully rich and varied society can have their say, no matter what their personal status. So that all the people who will be affected by any choices the Israeli government takes can make their opinions on those decisions known. 

As someone who comes from the Left and believes fervently in Israel’s truly multi-cultural liberal democracy, I find it offensive that some Jewish groups abroad apparently have so little to learn from the opinion-forming experiences of Israelis and so little respect for Israeli democracy that they seek to bypass it, thereby silencing voices different – both politically and ethnically – to their own.

I would hope that Left-leaning, liberal democratic British Jews would find that offensive too.

50 comments on “Yachad: UK Jews TOGETHER in contempt for Israeli democracy

    • A basic principle of democracy is to abide by international law and not occupy one’s neibourgh’s territory.

      • Quite!
        Read the Mandate for Palestine, Articles 5 and 6, and then censure the so-called Palestinians for occupying the Jewish Homeland of Judea and Samaria.
        BTW it is the last legally binding document in international law relating to Palestine.

        Hope your comprehension skills are better than your spelling.

        • “Read the Mandate for Palestine, Articles 5 and 6,”

          Article 5 deals with not ceding Palestine territory to a foreign power.

          Article 6 is about facilitating Jewish immigration “while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not predjudiced.” Hard to reconcile that with your nonsense about “(censuring) the so-called Palestinians for occupying the Jewish Homeland of Judea and Samaria.”.

          • Another ignoramus who cannot even spell….it’s prejudice..NOT..predjudice.
            Go and take comprehension lessons as well as learning to spell basic words.
            No wonder the Mandate document is above your head.

  1. Could any sane person not support Israel? This is my very first comment on a pro Israel website.
    The Jews you mention are crazy.

    • No sane person would support occupying one’s neighbour’s territory and the 4,5 million people living there.

  2. Great post, but a pity that you were unwilling to actually name Mick Davis and say more about the fact that this billionaire you identify as a support of Yachad is actually also currently the Chair of the UJIA, the main British fundraiser and link maker between the UK and Israeli communities. The powerpoint slides he puts up are quite unashamed about declaring that the unelected “Jewish Leadership Council” has a “political oversight group” which he appears to state claims to co-ordinate the policies of the Board of Deputies and other legitimate recognised and elected Jewish bodies.
    It’s a pity too that you don’t give any links which establish Mick Davis’ involvement in and support of Yachad.

    However, he did make a notorious speech in 2010 in which he declared that Israel was in danger of becoming an apartheid state. He also claimed that his left of centre and anti-Netanyahu views were typical of “the leadership” of the Jewish community.

    There is evidence that the rise of the Jewish Leadership Council and its increasing moves to take over legitimacy for speaking for the UK Jewish community from the elected Board of Deputies goes hand in hand with a determination to promote well left of centre policies on Israel which the majority of the UK Jewish community does not in fact share.

    It also appears to have acted to improve the chances of Ken Livingstone in his bid to get elected as Mayor of London in May 2012. Fortunately, it did not succeed. Mick Davis and his fellow well left of centre oligarchs and apparatchiks of the Jewish Leadership Council are fighters for the left in the UK and Israel. Unfortunately, their money and the lack of equivalent political determination and clout on the part of the mainstream Jewish community have enabled them to present themselves, even before the Israeli Knesset, as the voice of the UK Jewish community, which they are not.

  3. I think the problem some people have here is distinguishing between actual and potential citizens of Israel. Yes, all Jews are potential Israeli citizens, and they have an inalienable right (unless they are notorious international criminals) to become so; but until they make aliyah, they are not. Once they make aliyah, they share the fate of all Israelis and therefore have a right to take part in the decision-making process for their future: but not before. To my mind, the only exception should be for Shoah survivors, who should always be listened to, deferred to and respected.

  4. Hoe typical that a group that will have the effect of splitting the Jewish community should call itself “Yachad” – “Together”.

    Its the sort of cynical ploy we can only associate with demagoguery.

  5. You will look in vain in Yachad’s core principles for a recognition of the rise of Islamism, Palestinian Arab rejectionism and a defense of Jewish national rights. This should be not too controversial for a pro-Israel organization to mention.

    Unless Yachad is in reality neither pro-Israel nor pro-peace in which case its stand would make a lot of sense. The two-state solution has no future not because of supposed Israeli intransigence but simply because Israel lacks an Arab peace partner.

    A pity Yachad can’t acknowledge reality as most Israelis have done.

  6. What groups such as Yachad and J Street fail to appreciate time and time again (somewhat condescendingly and with more than a whiff of old colonial-style attitudes), is that the Western, left-liberal, English-speaking approach to the many thorny problems which Israel faces is far from being the only legitimate view-point.

    Very well said Hadar. I liked especially the “English speaking approach” part after watching the clip and understanding that these Israel lovers want their voices heard in Israel – without speaking and understanding the language of the country

  7. This is a brilliant and definitive essay Hadar.

    Having money and a loud voice doesn’t permit Mick Davis or anyone else to tell Israel how to behave. I hope that this is brought to his attention

    • Yes it does; anyone can tell anyone else to behave, and might feel compelled to if the behavior is outrageous enough. Your government tells plenty of governments how to behave: Syria, N.Korea, Zimbabwe, Iran, India, Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Bahrain, China Libya….and they all get up to some pretty awful stuff. Your government even criticised Ukraine in respect to soccer racism…. Why should Israel be different? When Israel demolishes the home of innocent people because their son/cousin/brother is alleged to be a terrorist ? Many evils of the world have only been stopped or reduced by international outrage or pressure. 1. Why is Israel immune and 2. Do you think Israel does no wrong ?

  8. Winge and whine as much as you want but Yachad and the JLC represent the way the wind is blowing among British Jews, particularly the young and especially since the ZF is sinking fast, a process given impetus by its murky relationship with racist and extremist groups

    • As I can see from the UK progressive liberal media like the Guardian and the BBC – the wind is blowing the British Jews out of the UK.
      The ZF connection with racist and extremist groups? You must be mixing the Zionist Federation with the British left…

  9. Superb, Hadar, as usual. These renegades are very few in number.

    Let us also not forget the creepy signatories to the anti-Israel declaration of “Independent Jewish Voices” in the UK, all 659 of them. They include all the usual suspect “luvvie” ageing British Trots like Janet Suzman, Miriam Margolyes, Stephen Fry and Mike Leigh. And then there is the unbelievable Deborah “the voice” Fink:

    Their numbers have increased by a paltry 100 or so since this unctuousy “proud to be ashamed to be Jewish” rabble was founded with 530 signatories four or five years ago. They are self-appointed, non-democratic and representative only of themselves and their suicidal Israel-bashing credo; not of Britain’s 250,000 Israel-supporting Jews.

  10. The main argument of the post seems to be that non-Israeli Jews who disagree with Israeli government policy are not entitled to say so and to seek to influence that policy. This anti-democratic nonsense comes from a writer who goes on to laud Israeli democracy in terms of its universal suffrage. Democracy is about more than voting. Small matters such as equall treatment under the law (clearly lacking in Israel) and freedom of speech (which the post seeks to deny to non-Israelis) are also part of the democratic package.

    I know nothing of Yachad’s funding or how its money is used to obtain political influence but would hazard a guess that its financial muscle would fade into insignificance against that of AIPAC.

    • The main argument of the post seems to be that non-Israeli Jews who disagree with Israeli government policy are not entitled to say so and to seek to influence that policy.

      Exactly so. They are not entitled at all even if they agreed with the government – in the Israeli Knesset. Maybe they and you didn’t realize yet but it the Knesset is a forum for Israeli citizens and their elected representatives.

      This anti-democratic nonsense comes from a writer who goes on to laud Israeli democracy in terms of its universal suffrage.

      Anti-democratic nonsense? An interesting take of democracy giving the right to influence without living with the consequences of this very influence…

      Small matters such as equall treatment under the law (clearly lacking in Israel)…

      You as usual can’t post someting without some ignorant and idiotic lie….

      …and freedom of speech (which the post seeks to deny to non-Israelis) are also part of the democratic package.

      Nobody wants to limit the freedom of speech of Yachad. The author of this aricle is criticising their attempts to speak in the name of the Jewish community without having the vote of the very same community. That they want to be heard in Israel? No problem, Make aliya, have a citizenship and go vote or be voted in… (can’t be a bit complicated without speaking Hebrew…)

      And I have to warn them – being friendly with Hamas and Ben White will give them the chance for success like a snowball in hell…

  11. I only take issue with Hadar’s article in one crucial point.

    The San Remo Resolution of 1920 and The Mandate for Palestine of 1922, legally binding until the present day, invested sovereignty of the to-be re-constituted Jewish Homeland with the Jewish people worldwide.

    Therefore, any Israeli government wishing to relinquish territory belonging to the Jewish nation would be out of order, and its actions would be illegal in international law.

    • Nonsense; such mandates, unlike contracts provide for unilateral consideration and it’s entirely permissible for countries to give up territory, on newly defined terms, without breaching previous covenants providing that the assuming and giving parties are both agrees. Furthermore, the Palestine Mandate does NOT mandate territorial boundaries – go read it – those were specifically to be defined by later agreements – in this case, 20 or so years later. Yours is a smokescreen useful where people are ignorant of the agreement, can’t be bothered to check it it, or assume that people posting facts are being honest…. Maybe yours is an innocent misrepresenation.

  12. Based on the opinion of Howard Grief, the world’s leading expert on the international law with regards to Israel’s sovereign rights.
    He has spent more than 20 years researching the subject, and was legal advisor the Yuval Ne’eman, himself no slouch…a distinguished physicist and discoverer of the quark.

    I recommend his book….The Legal Foundation and Borders of Israel under International Law.
    Read it and educate yourself.

    • Howard Grief is not exactly an independent arbitrator; he set out to prove his point. As a scientist, he knows that’s bad science. As a scientist, you set out to observe the outcome of investigation. As he is politically active, telling nations to butt out of Israel’s affairs, he’s not exactly a reliable witness.

      When proving one’s point, one is always tempted to exaggerate helpful facts and dismiss, omit or ignore those which are counterproductive to one’s argument (one only needs to read this page to see that!).

      It’s also largely historical; by which logic the British Isles should all be reverting to the borders of 1921..or reclaiming Britiain for the Angles…. down with the Normans! The point is, a declaration or agreement is only as good as long as it has the will on the International community and the people within. A case in point would be the independence of the Baltic states, or the rejoining of East and West Germany.

  13. It’s plainly nonsense to suggest that non-Israelis have no rights to opinions on Israeli policies and urge those with influence or power to hear them. Do I have no right to write to the Spanish embassy to urge them to ban bull fighting? The French about fois grois or Israelis about anything I fancy? The problem with the Israeli ‘right’ is that they mostly seek to silence, bully, intimidate or deligitimise critics, none more so than Jews who they believe ought to support the right without question. For too long Israel has had a unique position of diaspora support of such power that it has pursued policies which no other nation would get away with. Israel only exists and continues to exist because of us so don’t tell me we don’t have a right to a say.

  14. …Israel only exists and continues to exist because of us….

    Are you a Hamas member Musaf?

    Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it…

    The Covenent of Hamas.

    Do I have no right to write to the Spanish embassy to urge them to ban bull fighting?

    Yes you have. And the Spanish Embassy has the right to write you to care about your own business and don’t meddle in matters for grown-ups.

    The French about fois grois…

    Naturally you can write them… The problem that first of all they won’t understand you not knowing anything called “fois grois” and later when this small problem has been clarified they will answer you that you are completely free to eat fish and chips and not to eat anything better.
    But please if you write to them use the expression “foie gras”, they will laugh at you a bit less histerically.

    The problem with the Israeli ‘right’ is that they mostly seek to silence, bully, intimidate or deligitimise critics, none more so than Jews who they believe ought to support the right without question.

    You must be thinking about the Shakespeare festival in London? The Israeli Filharmonic concert of the BBC maybe? I didn’t know that these BDS fellows belong to the Israeli right…

    For too long Israel has had a unique position of diaspora support of such power that it has pursued policies which no other nation would get away with.

    Which policies Musaf? Maybe the policy of staying alive?
    But I’m seriously interested to read a list of Israel’s policies which no other nation would get away with.

    And let me inform you that Israel exists not because of you and your kind of selfrighteous know nothings but because of the hardworking and inventive Israeli people and their ability to defend themselves from their deadly enemies.

  15. Thank you peterthehungarian for making my arguement for me. That any ‘opponent’ gets personally attacked – that my typo somehow makes my opinion invalid, or that I must be a muslim because I don’t agree with you. Finally, for admitting that you believe that any nation has a right to ignore everyone outside the country, including those outside the country without whose support it would not exist. No doubt you also consider international condemnation of the USA’s concentration camps in Cuba to be invalid..even though those policies are carried out of FOREIGN soil (because the activities are prohibited by US law on US soil). So, what about Israeli policy OUTSIDE of Israel? Am I allowed to comment on that without fear of being shouted down by those (you) without counter-argument ?

    • …or that I must be a muslim because I don’t agree with you.
      As every selfrighteous moralists you have the sense of humor of a… selfrighteous moralist.

      Finally, for admitting that you believe that any nation has a right to ignore everyone outside the country, including those outside the country without whose support it would not exist
      This article and me didn’t say that Israel should ignore any criticism. Israel must block the attempts of organisations and persons who don’t have to live with the consequences of Israeli policies to influence the Israeli democratic process.

      No doubt you also consider international condemnation of the USA’s concentration camps in Cuba to be invalid..even though those policies are carried out of FOREIGN soil (because the activities are prohibited by US law on US soil).

      Who am I to interfere with your suicide intentions? A pity for you that your compatriots don’t want to cooperate with you.You are free to distribute candies in Guantanamo (Guantanamo is a concentration camp? Great attempt of diminishing the significance of the Holocaust). True the US laws technically make impossible to prevent the killing of masses of US citizens and as I understand their right to live in security is less important for you than the rights of some hundred terrorists.

      So, what about Israeli policy OUTSIDE of Israel? Am I allowed to comment on that without fear of being shouted down by those (you) without counter-argument ?

      Have you ever heard of projection?
      I seriously asked you for a list of “Israeli policies which no other nation would get away with” but instead of trying the impossible and arguing you are just shouting and crying…

      • ” Israel must block the attempts of organisations and persons who don’t have to live with the consequences of Israeli policies to influence the Israeli democratic process.”

        You seem to have a very narrow view of consequences. If your synagogue in Teaneck is firebombed by extremists because they don’t like what Israel is doing, then those are the consequences. If Al’Queda committed the attrocities of 9/11, those were consequences of US foreign policy. That the perpertrators are wrong and the actions unjustified doesn’t matter – they are still consequences. They would argue that dispatching Enola Gay was also ‘wrong’ but the US would argue it served the long-term great good – an evil to prevent bigger evils. I don’t support and condemn all of those actions, but I understand how they come about. What Israel does reflects on all of you; Israel is assumed by every Gentile to be mostly supported by and represent Jews worldwide. Biblically, the children are supposed to be a light unto nations – they’re not doing a very good job on that. That the Palestinians behave the way they do is not surprising – they’ve poor leadership, they have been mostly abandoned by their arab brothers (except when useful as a pawn or distraction – e.g. Saddam Hussain) and they’ve had every sense of hope drained from them. That makes them vulnerable and easy to exploit by militants – if they saw an alternative, they’d grab it.

        ” I seriously asked you for a list of “Israeli policies which no other nation would get away with” ”

        Not sure how you do italics..but the above is a quote of you… Okay, take the big one first. When Iraq annexed Kuwait, along came George Bush and pushed them out. When Israel annexed West Jordan/East Jerusalem, or the Sinai, political pressure has enabled them to keep it. When Mugabe was ethnically cleansing whites from farms, it was condemned outside (though nothing was done because there’s no oil in Zimbabwe) yet when Israel collectively punish villages – pulling down houses of innocent people (guilty by association) the US won’t condemn it. Israel cannot exist without the USA’s support – military and financial. If I give my son $5000 for food, I expect him to account for it and show that he’s not blowing it on crack.

        Israel, like any other relatively powerful country gets away with stuff, because it has relative power.

        • I won’t bother to argue with your examples because you are not exactly coherent as it can be demonstrated in your posts.

          First you wrote:(1:09am)
          ( I’ll learn you to use italics and bolds later)

          For too long Israel has had a unique position of diaspora support of such power that it has pursued policies which no other nation would get away with.

          Later you stated: (5:21am)

          Israel, like any other relatively powerful country gets away with stuff, because it has relative power.

          Maybe you should decide “no other nation” or “any other relatively powerful nation”. Changing your allegations and accusations in every four hours won’t help to accept you as a benevolent partner in a dialogue.

          Naturally you are well within your rights to send letters to different embassies demanding to put an end to the torturing of animals, but your preferences and extremely OTT crap about comparing the criticism of your opinion with the censorship of North-Korea tells a lot about you. Calling this BS hysterical is an understatement.

          Have you ever thought about writing to the Norwegian embassy demanding their intervention into the unrestricted violent antisemite bullying of Jewish kids in Norwegian schools? About writing to the Hungarian ambassador demanding protection for the Roma, gay and Jewish Hungarians against violent neo-Nazi paramilitary gangs? Maybe a strongly worded letter to the Iranian Embassy demanding to put an end of hanging gays and stoning adulterers? About demanding from your local PLO representative to stop their murderous incitement of children against Jews? etc. etc. Maybe in your beautiful intellectual and ethical world the wellbeing of ducks and bulls are more important than the lives and security of human beings? Or your sympathies depend on their national affiliations? Just asking…

          About italics, links etc.

          You can use the so called html-codes found here (and a number of other sites)

          • Do you know how ridiculous and transparent it is to say that you’re not going to argue with me because I’m [ insert random ad homonym attack ]. (damn spellchecker…doesn’t it know Latin?). Youve argued with me when you think you have an argument…you betray the lack of any counter-argument by now calling me incoherent. Israel gets special treatment from the USA, which is the most powerful and influential nation, so ‘no other nation’ clearly and implicitly excludes the one nation affording them the power. Gor Blimey as you say, it’s hard enough typing on this tiny screen so at least have the courtesy to argue, agree or decline…

  16. Oh, you’re right… I mis-spelt argument, so clearly the whole of my opinion is invalid…. Save yourself the time.

  17. ” Israel exists not because of you ”

    No you’re making stuff up; I never said that, and as I’ve never donated to AIPAC or written to my senator on the topic, I can’t say I’ve contributed very much to the continued existence of Israel, but it does onyl exist because of US foreign policy. Without the US, Israel’s polcies would have had to change long ago and we’d have a very different middle east. Israel is like a favourite child given the remote control and then believing he has the right to choose everyone’s TV viewing for 50 years…

    • ” Israel exists not because of you ”

      No you’re making stuff up; I never said that

      Memory problems Musaf? Read the lastt sentence of your own post (1:09am), you said exactly that. But I’m making stuff up… Fantastic.

      …but it does onyl exist because of US foreign policy

      US foreign polcy is implemented to represent Amnerican foreign interests and the will of the huge majority of the American people. Sometimes US foreign policy helps Israel sometimes not. Are you really suggesting that without US help Israel wouldn’t exist?

      Without the US, Israel’s polcies would have had to change long ago and we’d have a very different middle east

      For argument sake let’s say that you are correct and you would have a very different ME probably without any living Jews on its soil. Wet dreams Musa?

      • “Guantanamo is a concentration camp? Great attempt of diminishing the significance of the Holocaust”

        I wish I was playing right-wing-Jew bingo. I’d have a least a line by now from you trotting out the stereotypical retorts. Concentration camps long predate the Nazi ones, although most closely associated with that type, and predicting your response, I referred you to a dictionary. Who suggested giving candy to the inmates ? How about access to justice, red cross, lawyers, contact with their families and ultimately the presentation of some evidence of an internationally recognised crime. Even if they are terrorists and a threat, you can keep the locked up and still given them most of that. Being a bit brown and hiding in a cave isn’t really good enough for us to assume they’re bad. The occupation of Cuba and what our government do or support there is a stain on our nation. If we are to improve the world, let’s set an example, not have people like Rumsfeld tell us that the Geneva convention is a quaint bit of history, there in one swoop legitimising the mistreatment of our servicemen at the hands of foreign forces.

        Oh, and you mis-spelt “dictionar” so your argument is entirely valid (pathetic line, isn’t it… ? )

      • Sorry, not really got the hang of this commenting thing and still haven’t figured out quoting or italics but anyway…

        ” For argument sake let’s say that you are correct and you would have a very different ME probably without any living Jews on its soil. Wet dreams Musa? ”

        You mentioned projection and yet you do that? Are you really suggesting that a viable and flourishing Jewish state is only possible because of the policies that have been adopted ? The tide is turning against zionism; there WILL be a tipping point at which governments can no longer ignore the voices of those objecting. Israel should be smart enough to pre-empt that and seek peace before something else is imposed on it. That peace shouldn’t be at “any” cost but they should be willing for some considerable cost and sacrifices. Almost like a quiz show, the Palestinian people should be shown the prizes on offer (a peaceful life and normal living and vast aid) that is genuinely on offer if they turn their back on Hamas (etc.). There are those (on both sides) who will never accept it, but if they are drowned out by the masses then they will be irrelevant (or should be destroyed if they seek the same) and within a generation, people can live together. The British ‘forgave’ (in effect) the IRA for their attrocities and metaphorically take tea with Adams and McGuinness these days… that’s a serious bit of sacrifice for the sake of the greater good, and the generations that follow. The trouble is, I doubt the Israeli government have the balls because they get elected out every time they show anything other than brute strength. It’s very hard to preach anything other than revenge to people who have lost their families or friends or live in fears – ON BOTH SIDES.

        • That peace shouldn’t be at “any” cost but they should be willing for some considerable cost and sacrifices.

          Some serious problem with your knowledge of contemporary history Musaf:

          During its less than 70 years of existence Israel offered wideranging compromises in minimum five occasions to the Palestinians, forgave the PLO terrorism by signing the Oslo agreement in 1993, withdrew from the Sinai peninsula for a peace treaty with Egypt, evacuated Gaza, pulled back its military to the internationally acknowledged borders in Lebanon, offered virtually everything what the Palestinians wanted in Camp-David, in Taba and in Annapolis making huge sacrifices and risking their security. The Palestinian answer is well known, the Hizb’allah is free to threaten Israel with launching of tens of thousands of rockets at Israeli civilian centers, Egypt threatens to abrogate the Camp David accord, the murderous terror wave of Fatah (not Hamas!) in the second intifada, the launching of Quassams at Israel frpom gaza etc.etc.
          Could it be the high time for you to study the facts instead of empty slogans?

          • Your insults I can ignore; you’re not going to intimidate me into backing down. I’ll do that only when I’m bored or getting nowhere.

            Camp David was real progress but Israeli government, like fools, played into the hands of the militant groups. Every time Hamas (or similar) tried to derail the progress, Israel obliged with incursions, punishment or actions against the pal territory to satisfy those vociferous Israelis calling for revenge and something ‘to be done’. You’re never going to beat a people, you can only,polarise them further and increase their support for resistance. Those demanding revenge every time, and the weak government who pander to the short term ought to show some bravery. As Jesus would say, turn the other cheek, long enough to get progress with those who do want to work it. With a stronger legitimate Palestinian leadership on the side of peace, it will make it easier to defeat hamas. Hamas are only strong because the have pal. Support…because those Palestinian people have nothing else. Yes, people will suffer humiliation and loss in the short term, but their sacrifice will pay dividends for a long time. Israel needs to offer the palestinians an irresistible offer, make it clear that hams will be destroyed unless they ceasefire and then stick to it, not take the all away and bomb the soccer pitch every time someone in the crowd heckles….

            • Camp David was real progress but Israeli government, like fools, played into the hands of the militant groups. Every time Hamas (or similar) tried to derail the progress, Israel obliged with incursions, punishment or actions against the pal territory to satisfy those vociferous Israelis calling for revenge and something ‘to be done’.

              These foolish intolerant Israelis! Every time the Palestinians commited a terror attack they tried to prevent the next one. Bloody violent thugs!

              As Jesus would say, turn the other cheek, long enough to get progress with those who do want to work it.

              Thank you Musaf I’ll leave the turning of the other cheek to you.
              I belong to the other kind of believer of Jesus disciplines, if you throw a stone at me I’ll throw back a bread at you – a half ton piece of bread, so don’t try it out

              …Israel needs to offer the palestinians an irresistible offer,

              As we learnt it the only irresistible offer would be the mass suicide of every Jew. But telling you the truth reading your laughable ignorant preaching simply became extremely boring so our sweet dialogue must be stopped..

              Let me repeat your best Musaf to show your amazing stupidity:

              If your synagogue in Teaneck is firebombed by extremists because they don’t like what Israel is doing, then those are the consequences.

              Yes Musaf the responsible for the firebombing of a synagogue in the US is the policy of the Israeli government. Thank you for your contributuion for the discussion showing the real face of a stupid meddler preaching to the Israelis.

              • Name calling and quoting out of context. You’re so angry! Yours is self delusion…you don’t like what you hear so dismiss the writer…this is why you, the right, will lose the argument, and unless the moderates seize power and initiative, all Jews I’ll lose. They had their own state and blew it; that’s what history will say. The tide is turning.

    • To clarify, Israel doesn’t exist because of me personally. I meant “we, the west” (or rather our governments’ policies).

  18. Oh, and another comment just to avoid you going off on another smokescreen tangent, I use the term “concentration camp” in its formal or dictionary meaning, as opposed to Nazi camps which people often assume from the term. And whilst we can sit here and let our governments invade Afganistan or Iraq, or sponsor revolution in Libya or Syria, it’s plainly nonsense to say that Israel’s off-limits for external comment or infulence. That’s North Korea all over…

    • You are late Musaf. You should be more cautious using words in their dictionar meaning – words having very grave contextual significance in a dialog about Israel.

    • North-Korea all over…
      Don’t smoke this stuff Musaf, it must be polluted with something very bad.

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