Guardian’s Michael White defends Jenny Tonge’s anti-Israel fantasy, ignores O’Keefe’s Nazi analogy


It really was just a matter of time before the Guardian published a defense of Liberal Democrat Peer Jenny Tonge, who recently resigned from her Party after refusing to apologize for remarks morally justifying the Jewish state’s demise at Middlesex University’s campus in North West London.

The Guardian’s Deputy Editor Michael White, Jenny Tonge’s Israel remark simply stated an immutable law of history, March 1, wrote:

Jenny Tonge, a GP and local councillor who got lucky in 1997 when she became a Lib Dem MP (now a peer), has a track record of idiotic public pronouncements in her support for the Palestinian cause.

Among the “idiotic” pronouncements he’s likely referring to are Tonge’s remarks, in 2004, that she might have been a suicide bomber had she been born a Palestinian, as well as Tonge’s call for Israel to “investigate” the IDF in light of charges they were stealing organs in Haiti. 

White then added:

But should she have been effectively kicked out of her party over her latest controversy, the one in which she said Israel “is not going to be there for ever in its present form“?

Of course, White seems to not have seen the video (widely available on YouTube thanks largely to Richard Millett), as Tonge actually uses the word “performance“, not “form“. But, moreover, the last sentence in Tonge’s anti-Zionist fantasy is strangely omitted by White:

Tonge warned that eventually Israel “will lose its support and then they will reap what they have sown.

Moreover, White’s subsequent passages would have you believe that Tonge was merely elucidating soberly on the historical evolution of nation-states, rather than prophesying for the end of the Jewish state.

White:

With the possible exception of imperial China, no state lasts for ever,

Britain is not the state it was 100 years ago – those 26 Irish counties have gone their own way –

We can all cite such examples, the world is a restless place. So why be so neurotic about a not very important Lib Dem peer…shooting her mouth off on Middlesex university’s London campus?

But, more importantly, Tonge sat there in silence as Ken O’Keefe, an anti-Zionist activist who was on board the Mavi Marmara Gaza “aid“ ship, compared Jews to both the Nazis and to the German people whom, he suggested, collaborated with Nazi leaders.

O’Keefe:

So if Israel is inherently a racist state, if it is inherently an apartheid state, then I want no part of Israel. It has no place in this world. And it must in its current form, if you want me to use some inflammatory language, in its current form should be destroyed.

the Jewish state of Israel is, therefore, acting on behalf of the Jewish people. You, like the Nazis, have now a special obligation.

“The decent Germans, the so-called decent Germans of World War Two Nazi Germany, what did they do, what did the decent Germans do when the Nazis came to power and started to institute their policies, what did they do? They didn’t do enough, did they?

“Did they do enough to stop the Nazis? No, they didn’t. And what are the Jewish people doing right now? Are you doing enough to stop your racist apartheid genocidal state? 

“If you think that you are I beg to differ. You have a special obligation brought upon you just like the Nazis brought upon the decent Germans. Good  luck to you because the way of Israel, the way of Palestine is the way of the world. And you can mouth at me all you want. Good luck to you, because guess what, you are making enemies of all the people, not just me and the falsely accused anti-Semites.” 

O’Keefe also said Israel and the Mossad were directly involved in 9/11.

White concludes:

The real issue is here is surely free speech. If anyone – say Abu Qatada or the chap with the hook whose name I usually manage to forget – incites violence against Israelis or anyone else the law is there to have them arrested, charged and (with luck) convicted. But vulgar abuse and historical prediction – especially when stating an immutable law of history – should be things we can live with.

There’s a larger point here as well as the narrow local politics and their geopolitical ramifications where the ever-helpful peer ventured – on a university campus – that the US will eventually “get sick of” providing $70bn (£44bn) a year to support what she called its floating aircraft carrier in the eastern Mediterranean.

I have no idea where Tonge got this erroneous number from, and why White repeated it, as the amount of aid Israel gets from the U.S. is around 3.2 billion per year. But, as a colleague pointed out, “What’s an extra $67 billion when it comes to demonising Israel?”

Further, the issue has nothing to do with free speech. Tonge wasn’t arrested or even fired. She was asked to apologize by her party leader, refused, and then resigned.

White’s post represents supreme journalistic dishonesty – consistent with reports and commentaries at the Guardian regarding politically inconvenient information about antisemitism – in curiously omitting O’Keefe’s analogy between Israelis and Nazis.

Does White not find it offensive, or of journalistic relevance, that the Baroness sat there and didn’t register the slightest objection as O’Keefe engaged in such ugly antisemitic smears and conspiracy theories?

Of course, given his own record, it’s certainly possible that White doesn’t find associations with extremists, terror supporters or antisemities morally concerning.

Here’s a photo of Michael White hosting an event by MEMO, an antisemitic group run by the decidedly pro-Hamas and pro-Jihad Daud Abdullah

And, White is no stranger himself to expressions of extreme anti-Israel bias.  During a discussion on BBC Radio London’s Breakfast Show, concerning the physicalvulnerability of political leaders, he said:

In Israel they murder each other a great deal. The Israeli Defense Forces murder people because they don’t like their political style...”

In contextualizing Jenny Tonge’s comments that perhaps the Jewish state doesn’t deserve to exist in a manner meant to make the narrative appear more benign, and completely omitting relevant information about explicit Jew hatred by Tonge’s co-panelist, Michael White is simply continuing in the long Guardian tradition of antisemitic sins of omission.

Whether reporting about Raed Salah, Khadar Adnan, or Gilad Atzmon, the Guardian’s selective reporting is supremely adept at providing cover for antisemites, just as long, of course, as their hatred of Jews maintains the requisite thin veneer of mere opposition to Israel’ existence.    

167 comments on “Guardian’s Michael White defends Jenny Tonge’s anti-Israel fantasy, ignores O’Keefe’s Nazi analogy

  1. I love the bit from White/Tonge about ‘what she called [the US's] floating aircraft carrier’.

    Apart from the fact that Israel doesn’t float (last time I looked it was fixed to the Asian continent) and doesn’t have any American planes based on it, yes, it’s just like a floating American aircraft carrier.

    Although ‘floating aircraft carrier’ is a bit of a redundancy. Aircraft carriers (unlike Israel) do in fact float. But perhaps Jenny Tonge doesn’t know that.

    Can these people really be such idiots? OK, OK…

    • You’re right, it is a very odd phrase…especially given, as you say, that aircraft carriers all normally float, and Israel doesn’t.

    • Perhaps it’s the equivalent of a medieval witch trial; if Israel sinks, she’s innocent, but if she ‘floats’, she’s a malevolent, evil, usurping American aircraft carrier.

  2. Michael White is a decent guy but he is entirely missing the point here. The racist Tonge is not speaking an immutable truth about the long term prospects of all Empires, She supports an artificial quick genocidal policy fostered by Iran.

    She is a vile racist. I am surprised the urbane Mr White has come to her aid. But then again – it is the Guardian.

  3. I agree with Mario – White is not a bad guy.

    And it is true that the comment which finally ‘did for’ Tonge was far from her worst. But it was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

    Good riddance to her.

    • How is White not a bad guy? Do tell. Seems to me he’s a lazy journalist who quotes selectively to back a provocative argument on a subject he knows nothing about. Unfortunately, there are plenty more like him because it’s a cheap way for newspapers to fill pages and make a few waves.

  4. This is getting to be a thing…Ahmedinejad, this gal…you say something menacing about ‘Israel won’t be there forever, ya know,’ and defenders rush to explain that NO country lasts in its current political form FOREVER, and that’s all they meant.

    Let’s give this a try. Ahem. “There’s going to be regime change in Iran, and the country may no longer exist in its present form.”

    Did I just say something entirely true, and applicable to any country in the world sooner or later, or did I just threaten Iran?

    I think I know how most of the folks defending Ms. Tonge would interpret it.

    • I heard this very same “argument” from supposedly enlightened people. Curiously, they never refer to the possible disappearance of *their* countries, though I suspect that, as they despise themselves anyway, they somehow aspire to just that: self-anhiilation. And they are very upset that other, sane people, don´t want to join them in their fancy one-ticket trip to Wallhala.

  5. Duvidl composed this Poison Tonge song in February 2010, Clegg should have saved himself a lot of trouble by sacking her then.

    Poison Tongue (to the tune of “Robin Hood, Riding through the Glen”)

    (Hat tip: Carl Sigman from “The Adventures of Robin Hood” TV series 1955-60)

    Jenny Tongue, Poison Tongue, shvitzing in the Lords,
    Lib-dem joke, Tongue will croak slime, bile and eat its words.
    Feared by Nick Clegg; a Tongue-lash he’ll beg
    From Poison Tongue; up his bum; yum-yum-yum.

    (trumpet riff solo with coconut shell hoof percussion and whoopee cushion)

    Poison Tongue licks the crumb from the terrorists’ table.
    Scalds the lips of Lib-dem schnips.
    She’s no Betty Grable.
    Loves Jeremy Thorpe; at them we’ll gawp.
    Poison Tongue; takes a bung; upstairs slung.

    (trumpet riff solo + coconut shell cracking sound effect)

    DS Al Coda

  6. I have never forgotten Tonge’s remarks made during Cast Lead in December 2009:

    ““The way Israel behaves is just not kosher. Jewish people should be totally ashamed of themselves that they are not doing more to stop them. It’s absolutely disgusting.”

    http://hurryupharry.org/2010/02/13/defending-jenny/

    It seems to me that she was perfectly at home sharing a platform with O’Keefe. The essence of their remarks are not dissimilar.

    • If you were as cynical as I am you might wonder if Jihad Jenny has been disciplined for her remarks about Israel.
      Or, more likely, for being on the Advisory board of Liberal Left, a group of Lib Dems who are opposed to the Lib Dems being a part of the Coalition Government.

  7. The proud keffiyey owner sitting with White is the most disgusting member of the asajew club. the Hon. Gerald Thieving Kaufmann.

  8. This woman has a serious problem,her mouth and brain are not coordinated.
    Her mouth is faster than her brain,her brain finds it too hard to catch up to that nasty mouth of hers.

    As to Michael White wanting to come to the rescue of this damsel in distress,he has the same amount of brain cells as he has hairs on his head……Guardian trash.

  9. This Michael White has been writing for the Guardian for 30 odd years,some people just never learn……

  10. Just heard some of interview on BBCs’ Radio 4 by our dear ‘friend’ Humphrys, with Tonge and MP Robert Halfon. Declaring that Israel will not last forever is one of her mildest utterances. It is a pity that Halfon, when referring to her conspiracy theories, made no mention of her support for terrorism, and the allegation of trade in Palestinian and Haitian body parts. I cannot check on iPlayer right now (Today hasn’t finished yet), and if I missed it, let us know.

  11. I heard the Radio 4 piece.Tonge is an utterly useless debater.Her few inaccurate points are easily rebuffed.She then resorts to bluster.Her excuses for clapping “the extremist”,(O’Keefe),were truly pathetic,(ie,you must clap after a speech,it’s social custom.)

  12. Here is a summary of the odious racist Tonge on Today R4 and Robert Halfon MP in response:

    ‘Israel is not going to be there forever in its present form, that is what Baroness Tonge, Jenny Tonge, a leading Liberal Democrat has said and she is no longer a liberal Democrat’ (Today 0735)

    Baroness Tonge: Justifiable had the whip removed? I think too hastily, he is going to have a lot of flack about it I do know that … I have flack but I also have a huge amount of support … to say that if Israel continues with its policy towards the Palestinians and the fact they are losing their allies … it just cannot carry on pursuing the policies and doing the things it is doing and expecting to survive … the backing of America may not go on forever … the American’s might get fed up … I wish to goodness that Israel, which was a good concept at the beginning and many people supported it … I wish from the beginning they had left the Palestinians where they are … if they had included Palestinians instead of persecuting them that would have been better … You shared the platform with an extremist? I didn’t know I was going to do that … Do you challenge him? I couldn’t because I only had 15 minutes … Did you applaud him? I don’t think I did, probably at the end of his speech everyone gives a little clap … he is quite a brave man in many ways, he has done some brave things … I base my comments on what is happening to Palestinians … everywhere you look you see the brutalisation and humiliation of Palestinians (Today 0735)

    Robert Halfon: Comments? Whatever your views on this the problem with Baroness Tonge is she represents an extreme anti-Israel view … she attempts to de-legitimise Israel and her position is disproportionate and damaging to her credibility … She is more than welcome to say her conspiracy theories on the speakers corner in Hyde Park, she can say what she like but she represents the Liberal Democrats and it was right for Clegg to ask her to apologise … she would never question Syria’s right to exist but in her case it is conspiracy theories … the criticism of Israel she made have united Ed Miliband, Clegg and Hague against her because she is so extreme … a few years ago she said the pro Israel lobby ‘had its grip on the world’ … which shows the mindset … there is some progress in relations and Gaza is run by a Islamist terrorist organisation and regularly fires missiles into Israel (Today 0735)

  13. Tonge: “(Do you challenge him?) I couldn’t because I only had 15 minutes …”

    What a pathetic non-excuse. 15 minutes!
    I liked Halfon’s “speakers’ corner” response, though.

  14. “Among the “idiotic” pronouncements he’s likely referring to are Tonge’s remarks, in 2004, that she might have been a suicide bomber had she been born a Palestinian”

    She has certainly made some rather odd comments, but there is wisdom in this one.

    The name Yehiel De-Nur conjures up all manner of powerful memories, but there is one that sticks in my mind. When he was recounting some of his treatment, from memory I think it was LSD treatment, he recalled a dream or hallucination. In this vision, he was an SS Officer, and he took this to mean that had he been born in a different place, to a different family, he could quite possibly have been an SS Officer instead of a Ka-Tzetnik.

    “But should she have been effectively kicked out of her party over her latest controversy, the one in which she said Israel ”is not going to be there for ever in its present form“?”

    It’s official Likud policy that Israel ”is not going to be there for ever in its present form”.

  15. “I wish to goodness that Israel, which was a good concept at the beginning and many people supported it”

    Israel was a terrible idea, and many people, including a majority of Jews, opposed it.

    • “Israel was a terrible idea, and many people, including a majority of Jews, opposed it.” doo-doo-doo-da-da-da

      At last, doo-doo, you confess your Israel-hatred. Why did it take so long?

      People like you would only be satisfied if Jews ended up in Auschwitz or Treblinka. Unfortunately for your ilk, Israel is here to stay, is an enourmous success, despite all the odds, and you will just have to put up and swallow it. That´s call reality, though it´s a very hard concept for postmodernists like you to understand. Even children eventually get it.

      • 100 years ago, anti-Semitism and Zionism were the same thing. This is a reality that many modern day Zionists have failed to grasp.

        The imposition of European style mini states in the Middle East by the imperial powers was a terrible idea. This isn’t specific to Israel, nor is it a criticism of Israel. Just an acceptance that British Imperialism was the source of most of the Middle East’s problems today.

            • Oh, yeah. And no Jordan, no Saudia Arabia, no Syria, not to mention the hundred African nations.

              What have you been doing to dismantle all those countries, doo-doo?

              Why you have such a fixation on Israel? Most probably because you hate Jews and their disproportionate talents. Well, learn to live with it.

                • Oh, come, doo-doo? Where´s that passive-agressive stance of yours? Are you that low on self-esteem?

                  And now merit and talent is “genetic supremacy”.

                  Pathetic indeed.

                • “Jews and their disproportionate talents”

                  Sounds like a racist generalisation to me SerJew.

                  I know that facts are very disturbing things in dubiworld. Maybe you should take a math 101 course to understand the significance of the disproportionate number of distinguished Jewish scientists, artists etc during human history.

                • Who are your Jewish friends dubi? Gilad Atzmon? Berija?
                  Your jewish friends are religious? Or do you believe in the Torah? According to you dbi jewishness is a religion and nothing else…
                  Having Jewish friends is the classic ultimate argu,ent of trhe antisemites btw.

                  And again you somehow forgot to relate to some statistical facts…

                • “Sounds like a racist generalisation to me SerJew.” doo-doo

                  No, doo-doo, this is your rationalization to cover up your envy and lack of self-esteem; Fact is that Jews had contributed and continue to contribute disproportionately to human knowledge in science, mathematics, medicine, law, etc, by sheer talent, merit and hard wordk, and against all odds and their small numbers.

                  I know Judeophobes like you just can´t stand this fact, but hey, it´s reality, that thing you fear the most.

                • “Come on, someone on here must be at least vaguely embarrassed by SerJew’s Nazi-esque claims of genetic supremacy.” doo-doo

                  You only embarrass yourself, doo-doo, repeatedly and consistently. In fact you seem to really enjoy it.

                • “If I convert to Judaism” doo-doo

                  PLEASE, DON´T!

                  “(I’m told I’m already Jewish anyway by some of my Jewish friends),”

                  Oh, my. Already the “Jewish friends” routine. How original.

                  “..do I get to choose my disproportionate talents? Or do they just…come?” doo-doo

                  No, it requires hard-work and, most of all, intellectual honesty, that you completely lack. So, give up.

            • But you do. World War One. The Kaiser and the Ottoman Empire.

              Next to omit: the Nazi Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Hitler.

              Those blinkers totally blind you.

          • In fact, prof doo-doo would probably prefer Islamic Ottoman Imperialism, probably because that would have been more, how should I say, “organic”.

            Fortunately doo-doo can get all the self-hating masochistic pleasure
            she needs by bashing everything Western, as a good postmodernist little partisan. And that includes hating Israel, as he inadvertently recongnizes she´s the Western enclave in barbaric ME.

        • Well, doo-doo, in your postmodern relativistic universe, you surely prefer that Middle-Eastearn nations continue to be the backwards sh*t-holes they still are, with the sole exception of Israel.

          After all, who are we, eurocentrists, to suggest that such mysoginistic, homophobic, theocratic, medieval, corrupt, authoritarian, muderous self-destructive states such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Lybia, Egypt, etc, should improve by adopting the successful ideas of the Enlightenment?

          And, doo-doo, what have you been doing to dismantle what´s left of Britain?

    • Israel was a terrible idea, and many people, including a majority of Jews, opposed it.

      An interesting assertion. Certainly you will give some reference to support it.

    • “Israel was a terrible idea, and many people, including a majority of Jews, opposed it.” doo-doo

      Whoa! Another of those “sweeping generalizations” you love to complain about. Aren´t you even half-ashamed of your hypocrisy?

        • Cut the BS dubi and give the references supporting your assertions that the majority of Jews opposed the establishmant of Israel after the Holocaust.

          • I didn’t say after the Holocaust. You did.

            As I have consistently, and accurately pointed out, Zionism and anti-Semitism were pretty much the same thing prior to the Final Solution. It was only desperation that led to Jewish immigration to Palestine. There was substantial Jewish opposition to the anti-Semitic arguments of the Zionists in the early 20th century.

            • As I have consistently, and accurately pointed out, Zionism and anti-Semitism were pretty much the same thing prior to the Final Solution.

              An interesting and creative form of Holocaust denial.

            • First assertioin:
              …and many people, including a majority of Jews, opposed it.

              Some minutes after this the second one:
              There was substantial Jewish opposition…

              In international human rights and legal circles maybe they don’t know the difference between “majority” and “substantial” but believe me dubi they are not the same…

              • That´s not surprising, peter, postmodernist ideologues such as doo-doo don´t believe in truth nor logic. It´s very convenient for these lazy fraudsters: they don´t care about consistency, coherence, evidence and all those standards of Western thought developed in the last 350 years.

                For them everything is a word-game, “l´art du bavardage”, “deconstruction”, all those nice-souding words that mean nothing, because their talk is content-free, empty. They are only interested in diversion so they can ram in their true ideology, which is invariably and dogmatically leftist, anti-Western and Judeophobic.

              • Well, since you asked specifically about post Holocaust period, the last report on European displaced persons submitted to the League of Nations in 1946 before it was dissolved. A lot of surveys went into to concentration camps to ask survivors where they would like to be repatriated to. The report summarises those findings, let me quote it:

                “A survey carried out by voluntary organisations in the United Kingdom gave the following results. About 75% [of displaced Jewish persons] wished to stay in the United Kingdom; of the remaining 25% about one-half, namely 12.5%, for Palestine. A comprehensive survey carried out by the International Migration Service in Switzerland showed a surprisingly low proportion of German and Austrian refugees who gave Palestine as their first choice…”

                So even amongst the survivors, widespread support wasn’t there.

                The Israel-Palestine conflict was entirely manufactured by the imperial powers. If the great powers like the UK and US, if Canada and Australia had not closed their doors to the refugees, Zionism would never have achieved critical mass, and would have failed entirely as a nationalist ideology.

                When Herzl had his first Congress in Basel, he had already had to move it from Munich after opposition from local rabbis. They threw their hands up in exasperation. There they were combating anti-Semitism, demanding equal treatment for Jews and equal rights for Jews, and here was this idiot Herzl making *exactly* the same arguments as classical 19th century anti-Semites, namely that Jews were foreign, Jews were alien, Jews did not belong in Europe. The rabbis correctly pointed out that Herzl’s ridiculous scheme would open up Jews to allegations of dual loyalty.

                It was the same story when Herzl came to Britain. Large opposition.

                Herzl’s anti-Semitic views were eloquently captured in a Jewish book entitled “Aspects of the Jewish Question – Zionism and anti-Semitism”. A good example of Herzl echoing anti-Semitic views is this:

                “”The departure of the Jews,” he writes, in his introduction to the “Jewish State,” will involve no economic disturbances, no crises, no persecutions; in fact, the countries they abandon will revive to a new period of prosperity.”

                Herzl is basically echoing anti-Semitic notions of their being an economic incentive to expel the “undesirable” Jews from Europe.

                The book goes on, in quite a damning fashion:

                “Dr Herzl offers the pretty picture of Jews content, like foreign visitors, with a “favourable welcome and treatment.” We have called this a travesty of Judaism. But it is worse than satire — it is treason. Dr Herzl and those who think with him are traitors to the history of the Jews, which they misread and misinterpret. They are themselves part-authors of the anti-Semitism which they profess to slay. For how can the European countries which the Jews propose to “abandon” justify their retention of the Jews? And why should civil equality have been won by the strenuous exertion of the Jews, if the Jews themselves are to be the first to “evacuate” their position, and to claim the bare courtesy of “foreign visitors”?”

                So the notion of anti-Semitism and Zionism being the same thing is not without foundation. It is just absent from collective memory.

                • Oh, haha! 1902 text by a writer paying obeisance to the Ottoman empire which had already permitted Jews to buy land.

                • Nah, doo-doo, YOU are the anti-Semite here. Too late to hide it with postmodernist word-games.

                • “Has not got a clue”. doo-doo

                  Oh, she does. She´s playing the post-modernist tactics to the book. A perfect Heideggerian. Nicht nichtet, shit shits, and doo-doo poops.

                • “So the notion of anti-Semitism and Zionism being the same thing is not without foundation. It is just absent from collective memory.” ya-ba-daba-doo-doo

                  Another typical post-modernist trick. State a BLATANT contradiction as it were the most wondrous discovery. Then, “Ex falso quodlibtet”, and doo-doo can deduce whatever non-sense she wishes.

                  That´s intellectual delinquency of the highest degree. Congrats doo-doo.

                • “Herzl is basically echoing anti-Semitic notions of their being an economic incentive to expel the “undesirable” Jews from Europe. doo-doo-derrida

                  Nice inversion, doo-doo. Won´t work, though.

                  Herzl was simply recognizing the FACT (yeah, that scary stuff that frustrates your fantasy-world) that Jews were considered undesirable in Europe, no matter what they did. And one of the reasons was pure envy of Jews and their DISPROPORTIONATE TALENTS and SUCCESS, that enraged mediocre losers such as yourself to no end.

                • “Herzl was simply recognizing the FACT (yeah, that scary stuff that frustrates your fantasy-world) that Jews were considered undesirable in Europe, no matter what they did.”

                  Herzl was encouraging anti-Semitism. There’s a reason that Hitler, in Mein Kampf, cited Zionism as Jewish support for his anti-Semitic views. Inconvenient facts, I know.

                • “Inconvenient facts, I know.” doo-doo

                  C´mon, doo-doo, since when you became interested in facts? This is against your “principles”.

                • To cite Mein Kampf for you:

                  “And whatever doubts I may still have nourished were finally dispelled by the attitude of a portion of the Jews themselves. Among them there was a great movement, quite extensive in Vienna, which came out sharply in confirmation of the national character of the Jews: this was the Zionists.

                  It looked, to be sure, as though only a part of the Jews approved this viewpoint, while the majority condemned and inwardly rejected such a formulation.”

                • “And why should civil equality have been won by the strenuous exertion of the Jews, if the Jews themselves are to be the first to “evacuate” their position, and to claim the bare courtesy of “foreign visitors”?””

                  Indeed, what is the point of emancipating the Jews if they are then going to feel free to just go anywhere they want? Why should Jews even have bothered to try to get human rights, if they are just going to squander them by going to Eretz Yisrael?

                  There is no either/or here! Jews, make a collective decision and stick with it! Either y’all STAY PUT and maybe have some rights under the law, or you LEAVE, and prove we were right to oppress you! As for those of you who were living in Jerusalem and Safed and Gaza and Chevron long before this crazy Herzl guy got started, we don’t know what to do about you, so we will pretend you do not exist, and hope that catches on.

                  My head hurts.

                • “Indeed, what is the point of emancipating the Jews if they are then going to feel free to just go anywhere they want? Why should Jews even have bothered to try to get human rights, if they are just going to squander them by going to Eretz Yisrael?”

                  You’re missing the point. The European Jews were, as the name suggests, indigenous to Europe. It was their home. They didn’t want to go to Palestine, they wanted to assimilate. They didn’t want this idiot Herzl reinforcing anti-Semitic notions that they didn’t belong in Europe.

                  As for the actual indigenous Jews in Palestine, and the other “oriental” Jews, we also find that opinion ranged mostly from apathy to opposition to Zionism, with many oriental Jews fearing again the anti-Semitic allegations of dual loyalty that Zionism was encouraging.

                • “You’re missing the point. The European Jews were, as the name suggests, indigenous to Europe. It was their home. They didn’t want to go to Palestine, they wanted to assimilate. ” doo-doo

                  Oh, yes. But, guess what, doo-doo, YOU Europeans didn´t want Jews, assimilated or not. That´s the FACT that you try to invert as if Jews were guilty of YOUR anti-Semitism.

                  I told you and I´ll repeat: the era of Goebbels monologues are OVER. No amount of your postmodernist word-games will work.

                • Your ignorance is getting more and more obvious with each of these routines you pull. Zionism was a strong movement with popular support in both the Ashkenazi and Mizrahi worlds.

                  You may imagine that cherry-picking people who disagreed with it somehow proves some ridiculous notion that ‘European Jews’ all wanted to assimilate, but history tends to suggest otherwise, quite strongly.

                  Playing all or nothing is usually a stupid way to approach history.

                  Also, the Ashkenazim are not ‘indigenous’ to Europe, any more than I am indigenous to California.

                • About 75% [of displaced Jewish persons] wished to stay in the United Kingdom; of the remaining 25% about one-half, namely 12.5%, for Palestine.
                  Your logic dubi is a perfect match to your ideology. That European refugees preferred to remain in a Western environment, fearing the unknown has nothing to do with their opposition or support of Zionism. There are millions of zionists living outside Israel.
                  When Herzl had his first Congress in Basel, he had already had to move it from Munich after opposition from local rabbis.
                  Interesting… the rabbis didn’t like a secularist movement – who would think about it?.
                  There they were combating anti-Semitism, demanding equal treatment for Jews and equal rights for Jews,…
                  Their fight was very succesful and stopped in the gaschambers dubi.
                  …and here was this idiot Herzl…
                  Ah the same dubi who is crying about ad hominems …
                  … making *exactly* the same arguments as classical 19th century anti-Semites, namely that Jews were foreign, Jews were alien, Jews did not belong in Europe.
                  Herzl didn’t make these arguments only in your twisted Jew-hating two remaining brain-cells. He said that in the eyes of the antisemite majority of the European gentile public they always will remain aliens who don’t belong to Europe.
                  The rabbis correctly pointed out that Herzl’s ridiculous scheme would open up Jews to allegations of dual loyalty.
                  Correctly? Open up? Are you totally stoned dubi? Before Herzl the Jews have never been accused with dual loyalty?

                  Speaking about majority dubi you certainly has no idea but the huge majority of European Jews at that time lived not in Munich or Basel but in Russia/Poland and East-and Central-Europe where antisemitism was much stronger (and was accompanied by deadly pogroms and violence).

                  Funny to see the attempts of an ignorant antisemite trying to explain history. Keep it up dubi proving (naturally unintenionally) the need of the existence of a strong zionist state – Israel.

                • “Your logic dubi is a perfect match to your ideology. That European refugees preferred to remain in a Western environment, fearing the unknown has nothing to do with their opposition or support of Zionism. There are millions of zionists living outside Israel.”

                  Zionism has always had great support outside Palestine. European anti-Semites like Balfour and Hitler, and American anti-Semites like Brandeis were also big supporters. They supported it precisely because it created somewhere to send these “undesirable” Jews.

                  “Interesting… the rabbis didn’t like a secularist movement – who would think about it?.”

                  Their opposition had nothing to do with Zionism being secular, but had to do with the fact that it was reinforcing anti-Semitism.

                  “Their fight was very succesful and stopped in the gaschambers dubi.”

                  Helped in no small part by those Zionists who cheerfully adopted and championed the core tenets of anti-Semitism, turning it into a “national liberation” movement. That’s really some marketing.

                  “Herzl didn’t make these arguments only in your twisted Jew-hating two remaining brain-cells. He said that in the eyes of the antisemite majority of the European gentile public they always will remain aliens who don’t belong to Europe.”

                  Herzl himself harboured extremely anti-Semitic views, which should at least give you pause for thought. Consider this, which Herzl himself penned in an article:

                  “The wealthy Jews control the world. In their hands lies the fate of governments and nations. They set governments one against the other, and by their decree governments make peace or war. When the wealthy Jews play, the nations and the ruler dance. One way or the other, the wealthy Jews get ever more rich.”

                  Can you imagine how quickly I would be banned from this site if I made that argument today? Herzl was an anti-Semite. He even had the idea of eliminating Jewishness by organising mass conversions to Christianity. A great leader you have there.

                  “Correctly? Open up? Are you totally stoned dubi? Before Herzl the Jews have never been accused with dual loyalty?”

                  Of course, but Herzl saw anti-Semites as his friends and allies, as Zionist have since. He sought to encourage it, and by arguing for the creation of a Jewish state, he would exacerbate the dual loyalty charge. As he wrote:

                  “an excellent idea enters my mind. To attract outright anti- Semites and to make them the destroyers of Jewish wealth”

                  “Funny to see the attempts of an ignorant antisemite trying to explain history. Keep it up dubi proving (naturally unintenionally) the need of the existence of a strong zionist state – Israel.”

                  Zionism is anti-Semitism. That much is clear. More interesting is the modern day enthusiastic adoption of classical 19th century anti-Semitism as a nationalist ideology. It’s fascinating stuff.

                • Let’s sum up the ideology of a modern-day anti-semite:
                  1. Zionism is anti-semitism.
                  2. Herzl was an antisemite.
                  3. One of the main reasons of modern day European anti-semitism is Zionism.
                  4. Zionism helped the Holocaust.

                  Congratulations dubi.
                  Now I will leave you alone with your wet dreams about the elimination of Zionism and the Zionist state and I’m going to visit the stolen Golan-heights with its stolen snow.

                • 1. Zionism is anti-semitism.

                  This much is clear.

                  2. Herzl was an antisemite.

                  According to the definition used by this site, definitely.

                  3. One of the main reasons of modern day European anti-semitism is Zionism.

                  No, I don’t think so.

                  4. Zionism helped the Holocaust.

                  Zionism promoted anti-Semitism, certainly. And anti-Semitism of course led to the Final Solution. Whether or not the Final Solution would have been implemented without Zionism is conjecture. It’s an interesting question though, given that Hitler cited Zionism in support of his anti-Semitic views.

                • It’s an interesting question though, given that Hitler cited Zionism in support of his anti-Semitic views.

                  Your attempt to be on the same intellectual level of a fourteen years old underachiever has been very succesful.
                  Neo-nazis are using Shimon Peres naive statement that Israeli investors are very successful in East-Europe justifying their assertion “Jews are taking over the economy” – so Peres is a neo-nazi.
                  Very good dubi you are in a perfect intellectual company.
                  And regarding the European Jews preference to return to their European homes really helped them to arrive in Dagestan or the gulags in the SU, in Poland (Kielcee pogrom or being kicked out in 1968), in Hungary (Miskolc and Kunmadaras) even today in Budapest with its “Jew-free” taxis or in socialist ruled Malmo Sweden.

                • “Neo-nazis are using Shimon Peres naive statement that Israeli investors are very successful in East-Europe justifying their assertion “Jews are taking over the economy” – so Peres is a neo-nazi.”

                  I think you’re making a fumbling non-sequitur. The death rattle of a failed argument.

                  According to the definition of anti-Semitism trumpeted by this site, Herzl was an anti-Semite. This is irrefutable.

                  It is also irrefutable that Hitler cited Zionism as being in support of his anti-Semitic views. Quoting Mein Kampf again:

                  ““And whatever doubts I may still have nourished were finally dispelled by the attitude of a portion of the Jews themselves. Among them there was a great movement, quite extensive in Vienna, which came out sharply in confirmation of the national character of the Jews: this was the Zionists.

                  It looked, to be sure, as though only a part of the Jews approved this viewpoint, while the majority condemned and inwardly rejected such a formulation.””

                  It is irrefutable that Herzl encouraged anti-Semitism, and it is irrefutable that anti-Semitism led to the Final solution. The role that Zionism played in laying the groundwork for the Final Solution, if any, would be an interesting topic for a book.

                • BS, doo-doo. Your depraved inversion is clear: you want to BLAME the Jews for your anti-Semitism. Classical leftist inversion.

                  Won´t work, though. Go back to “Mein Kampf”.

                • “Zionism is anti-Semitism. That much is clear.” doo-doo

                  It follows that you are a Zionist. Gee, doo-doo, quick, jump out of the window,

                • “The role that Zionism played in laying the groundwork for the Final Solution, if any, would be an interesting topic for a book.” doo-doo

                  The book is already written and you love to read it, it´s “mein kampf”, the new hit among your type of postmodern pseudo-intellectual euro-trash.

                  Let´s repeat. It´s irrefutable that doo-dooism, a nano-subsect of mediocre post-modernism anti-semitism. It´s intellectual delinquency of the basest type. It proves european “intelligentsia” reached a new low in their resentful impotence. It´s irrefutable it´s bringing europe once again to a disaster.

                • “1. Zionism is anti-semitism.

                  This much is clear.” doo-doo

                  Leftism is racism. That much is clear.

                  “2. Herzl was an antisemite.

                  According to the definition used by this site, definitely.”

                  Martin Luther King and Ghandi were racists. That´s irrefutable by
                  doo-doo´s upside down “logics”.

                  “3. One of the main reasons of modern day European anti-semitism is Zionism.

                  No, I don’t think so.”

                  Yes, doo-doo, you don´t think. A truth, at last.

                  “4. Zionism helped the Holocaust.”

                  Leftism helped killing around 100 million people. Much more than nazism. So, as postmodern impotent leftist, you still have a long work to do.

                • Blaming the Jews for anti-Semitism is a standard Judeophobic canard.

                  What else is needed as proof that this doo-doo is a Jew-hating propagandist? He alredy cites “mein kampf”!

                  Is this site a platform for such mediocre ideologues?

          • “Cut the BS dubi” peterthehungarian

            Impossible. This is like asking doo-doo to commit suicide. Not a bad idea, by the way.

        • Nah, nah, doo-doo. You won´t get away with your blunders and sophomoric pseudo-intellectual pose.

          As for talents, if you´ve got any, is that of a run-of-the-mill Judeophobic ideologue. Not original, quite boring, always funny.

        • “It’s your basic comprehension skills that are lacking.” doo-de-doo-dha-dee

          Is that so, doo-doo? So when you whine about “corporate media”, “the majority of Jews think this and that”, etc, then it´s not generalization?

          Nice little postmodernis games you play. Problem is that no one is playing with you. So sad.

      • I don’t care if a million and a half Arabs disagree with me. Han shot first, and I will never believe otherwise.

        (Wait, what are we talking about?)

    • Dubitante, Israel certainly is a bad idea if you believe that Jews have no right to defend themselves and should go to their horrible violent deaths at the rate of tens of thousands every day – just like in the good old days before the zionists came and spoilt the party.

      Your views are highly offensive.

      • Zionists lacked the political clout to establish Israel, they relied heavily on the backing of the imperial powers.

        The Zionism had nothing to do with Jewish self defence, it was supported by notable anti-Semites, like Balfour in England, like Hitler in Germany, like Brandeis in the US.

        • You haven’t a clue about what you are saying.

          Complicity is what you have. Complexity seems to be beyond you.

          • It´s purposeful. It´s standard post-modern leftist tactics. They lost all of their dreams and can only dabble in pathetic little-word-games. That also explains why they identify so easily with taqqiya: because it´s the same type of game, fraudulent, mendacious, intellectually and morally bankrupt.

            Won´t stick, doo-doo. You´ll need to find a shrink, after all.

        • Now doo-doo begins his postmodernist games once again. Today he´s using the “hard-core” realpolitiker dress. Yeah, all nations are born by blood and conquest, etc, though of course, doo-doo only whines about Israel. Blatant double-standards: Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc, were pure creations of evil British Imperial powers.

          Tomorrow, of course, he´ll return to her international-lawyerism, where everything *must* be perfect but, once again, from Israel and Israel only doo-doo will require that. For everyone else doo-doo will find a convenient excuse.

          It´s the perfect post-modernist NONSENSE. L´art of bavardage, tout court. Saying contradictory statements from one post to the next. Create confusion. Exploit people´s bona fides. It´s all an exercise in DIVERSION so that doo-doo mask her obvious ideological leftist agenda.

          It won´t work, doo-doo.

  16. References dubi not wordtwisting please.
    And that what support had Zionism beforew the Holocaust is absolutely and totally insignificant. (somathing that fighting against nuclear armaments before discovering the fission of atoms) Israel have been established after it.

    Anti-semitic arguments of the Zionists!? Fantastic dubi. please continue posting this…

  17. Is this site a platform for such mediocre ideologues?
    (SerJew)

    I hope not, SerJew. There is one of them on Usenet, also a lawyer with no lawyering to do and he has kept up the antisemitic drivelling for years.

    • This doo-doo has basically quaified himself as a standard anti-Semite by:

      -denying the Jewish people´s right of self-determination;

      -consistently demonizing Israel and Israel only, a standard even by the EU definition of anti-Semitism;

      -using postmodernistic word-games, spewing blatant lies, holding contradictory positions, disrespecting all the canons of logic and
      evidence and using blatant double-standards;

      -obsessing in delegitimizing Israel and Israel only; ingoring all other
      much graver conflicts in the world;

      -citing a classic of eliminationist anti-Semitic literature, namely “Mein Kampf”, to accuse Jews themselves;

      -using standard excuses such as “I have Jewish friends” and “maybe I´m Jew myself” BS;

      -and, last but not least, blamed Zionism for 2500 years of anti-Semitism, implying that Jews are to blame for the Holocaust, therefore excusing the pan-European project of extermination of the Jewish people, in the most disgusting way, ie, blaming the victims.

      This type of hate-speech would have been UNTHINKABLE a few years ago. That this blog offers a free platform for this type of Goebbellian propaganda, is a clear sign that modern-day anti-Semites, even mediocre ones such as doo-doo, were very successful in establishing their hatred as respectful “debate”.

      As smart demopaths, they exploit a bogus notion of “free speech” and “fairness”, while practicing intellectual delinquency ot the basest kind, masked as “humanitarianism”, “International-lawyerism” and
      palestinistic victimhood.

      Meanwhile, the blog-owners seem more concerned with ad-hominems and name calling. Another sign that their diversion works.

      • Ser Jew, or Ariadne a quick question.

        Which well known blogger, on his blog May 20th 2011 @ 10:41PM gave dubitante the following advice,
        “Today, I would describe you as in terms that are unprintable. Please go back to Mondoweiss. You deserve each other.” ?

            • Yes to Tim Haughton/dubitante.

              When even a low-life such as Silverstein tells you to Naff Off! It’s the same as being expelled from the Ku Klux Klan for racism.

              • Is he doodoo? I thought doodoo is female. Just found (now) him on Richard Millett’s blog claiming to be doing a PhD in Hamas!

                What a waste of space. And people’s time.

                • A PhD in Hamas? Just perfect. Let me guess who´s the advisor: Norm Finkle-Stinkle? Noam Chimpsky? Abu Mazen?

                  It´s just unbelievable that how the mediocrazation brought by the postmodern left basically destroyed all the standards of scholarship in the humanities depts. of the West. They failed to do the revolution, socialism is dead and what´s left for these losers? Doing PhD´s on Hamas. I bet he´ll be using a Lacanian chicanery, with a bit of Derridaen non-sense and a bit of Foulcatian madness. All of them tributary to the charlatan madman nazi prrrrofessorrrr Heidegger, that “genius” that came up with the deepest discovery in Western philosophy, namely, that “the nothing nothings” (in German it sounds a bit more fancy, “Nichts nichtet”).

                • You were accused, deservedly so, of being an anti-white racist, blaming all the evils of the Universe on colonialism and other such sweeping generalizations that only mediocre frausters can produce.

                  That you are a judeophobic obsessive, that´s certain. You posts prove it.

                • “You were accused…of…blaming all the evils of the Universe on colonialism and other such sweeping generalizations that only mediocre frausters can produce.”

                  Except, of course, that I didn’t. And in spite of your “disproportionate Jewish talent”, you are, yet again, unable to back up what you’re writing.

                  Please continue to fail to mount an intellectual defence of your allegations. If nothing else, you are at least (unwittingly) combating anti-Semitism by helping dispel the racist myth of “disproportionate Jewish talent”.

      • Thanks for providing a good example of the dishonesty that really holds this blog back. Let’s wade through the lies:

        “-denying the Jewish people´s right of self-determination;”

        Jews have the same rights to self determination that Mormons, Scientologists and Catholics have. You cannot quote anything to the contrary.

        “-consistently demonizing Israel and Israel only, a standard even by the EU definition of anti-Semitism;”

        I don’t demonize Israel, unless accurately citing the documentary record constitutes demonization, in which case the world is in real trouble. Nor do I hold Israel to a higher standard than any other state on Earth. You cannot quote anything to the contrary.

        “-obsessing in delegitimizing Israel and Israel only; ingoring all other
        much graver conflicts in the world;”

        I have no idea what “delegitimizing Israel” actually means. Israel is a state, like any other state. It is no more or less legitimate than France, Germany, Chile or the US. You cannot quote anything to the contrary.

        “-using standard excuses such as “I have Jewish friends” and “maybe I´m Jew myself” BS;”

        If Jews like Herzl can be anti-Semites, then “having Jewish friends” would be a pretty lame defence against charges of anti-Semitism.

        “blamed Zionism for 2500 years of anti-Semitism, ”

        Except that I haven’t, and I don’t, and you cannot quote anything to the contrary.

        “implying that Jews are to blame for the Holocaust”

        Except that I haven’t, and I don’t, and you cannot quote anything to the contrary.

        “Meanwhile, the blog-owners seem more concerned with ad-hominems and name calling. Another sign that their diversion works.”

        SerJew, you contribute nothing to this blog other than noise, name calling and accusations that you simply cannot back up with anything based in reality.

        If Adam wants to improve the standards of CiFWatch by trying to stamp out the kind of adolescent nonsense that you routinely spout, then kudos to him.

        I think that the Guardian posts some articles that are on the spectrum of anti-Semitism. I think that this blog does some good work by confronting these articles, but also harms its cause by posting things which are demonstrably false. Its credibility is also harmed by the drivel expounded by the likes of you and TGIAI below the line. If you care about Adam’s goals, do CiFWatch a favour and unplug your keyboard.

          • Indeed, now doo-doo, or Tim Goebbels or whatever she/he/it is, is playing the victim. Always changing his masks, always adapting his little show, and all in from of our very eyes. Having a complete lack of character, doo-doo has a hard time coping with himself.

        • “SerJew, you contribute nothing to this blog other than noise, name calling and accusations that you simply cannot back up with anything based in reality.” doo-doo

          Oh, now you dare moralize me, now? After accusing me of being “nazi-esque” because I pointed out the fact of disproportionate Jewish talent? After I had unmasked your ridiculous postmodern diversion tactics? Your self-esteem problems are dauting. That´s why YOU should turn off your factory of lies and go find a shrink.

          As for your so-called “contributions”. I don´t give a damn to your pathetic opinions. It´s up to other people to decide. What I can say is that you´re a failure even as pseudo-intellectual. You proved yourself a mediocre and boring Jew-hater and I just find it appaling that you have a free space in this blog to vomit your worn-out propaganda.

          • Then please, utilise some of your “disproportionate Jewish talent” and back up one of your baseless accusations above. But you won’t, because you can’t. Squirm all you like, spit your venom, you are exposed.

            “Disproportionate Jewish talent”, “disproportionate Jewish wealth”, “disproportionate Jewish power” – all core tenets of anti-Semitism, but you cheerfully and enthusiastically adopt them in the name of Jewish nationalism.

            Disturbing. Fascinating, but disturbing.

            • Playing games again, doo-doo? And you claim dishonesty from other people here, when YOU are the master of intellectual delinquency?

              You don´t have a SHRED of self-criticism nor intellectual honesty nor credibility to deman ANYTHING from anybody here. If you had at least a minimum of self-respect, you´d just leave. But self-respect is something you have to earn, not demand.

              It´s probably your self´-esteem issues. You just can´t stand the success of the Jews, can you? That´s disturbing…to YOU. Get over it, doo-doo.

              • Yes, I demand of you, SerJew, that you demonstrate your “disproportionate Jewish talent” to mount an intellectual defence of your baseless allegations.

                Or remain as you are, and angry anonymous forum poster, unable to back up what he is writing.

                • You can demand sheisse, doo-doo, you´re getting hysterical.

                  Anyways, just to make you salivate a bit, here´s a sample of Jewish mathematicians:

                  http://www.jinfo.org/Mathematics_Comp.html

                  PS: as I know you´ll try to come with this sh*t, some of these mathematicians had to convert in order to be able to enter a university, particularly in Germany, which had a numerus clausus for Jewish students. And this was G-E-R-M-A-N-Y, where Jews were assimilated the most. Yeah, talent sucks, but Jewish talent is just unbearable for losers like you.

                • Can you explain how a list of Jewish mathematicians supports your baseless accusations against me? Am I missing something? Or is that the extent of your intellectual defence? Outstanding!

                • “Just give it up.”

                  I will take that to mean you are simply unable to back up a single allegation you’ve made, in spite of your “disproportionate Jewish talent”. I don’t expect a retraction or apology, but it is sufficient to know that your dishonesty and intellectual weakness has been publicly exposed.

                • Yeah, doo-doo, those listed were outstanding mathematicians of the XIX and XX centuries, that basically shaped the field (and continue to do today).

                  Being Jewish, a tiny minority and discriminated against all over Europe, some had to convert, which was their ticket to enter the university. It´s just mind boggling how they managed to contribute so much. It´s talent and hard working. Pure and simple. And disproportionate. When European half-heartedly conceced emancipation, Jewish students just flowed to European Universities and the liberal professions. Sheer talent and hard working, dispropotionately so.

                  Now, anti-Semites were horrified. They thought those ignorant backwards people from the ghettoes would take decades to adapt to modern civilized Europe. But Jews did in and surpassed all expectations in a couple of years. Man, that generated a huge
                  resentment. The eternally unhappy European anti-Semites now claimed Jews were taking over *their* plances and in the worst possible way, namely, by MERIT. No wonder they were pissed. And they would exact a murderous revenge in the appropriate circumstances.

                • “I don’t expect a retraction or apology, but it is sufficient to know that your dishonesty and intellectual weakness has been publicly exposed.” doo-doo

                  LOL. You are in a really bad night, doo-doo. Go get a drink or a shrink.

                  Yeah, doo-doo, you won´t get much sympathy after citing “Mein Kampf” and inve that Zionism is anti-Semitism, which is one of the most ridiculous ideas ever proposed. Now, Imagine what kind of nonsense you´ll invent for you PhD thesis on Hamas. You probably say that Hanyeh is the greatest Zionist every. That he has many Jewish friends, like Norm Stinkle-Finkle and Noam Chimpsky and that he´s probably half-Jewish himself. Can´t wait to read the draft. Would be greater than Monty Python´s Holy Grail sketches.

          • “Factory of lies” is a wonderful phrase, SerJew. If this shapeshifter had any shame he would fade into the wallpaper – St Helena wallpaper, naturally.

              • You have lied all the way through your comments here. Anyone who really knows anything can see the shifting sand you claim as fact.

                I’m not about to give you any factual basis on which to weave your fantasies.

                You are in the wrong place and not about to convince anyone here.

            • LOL. If doo-doo move to Saint Helena the natives would move away the next hour. Even Napoleon was more bearable than this whiner.

                • Napoleon was ambiguous regarding the Jews, as with almost every European emancipationist, including some well-meaning people of the Enlightenment period. The hatred was just too ingrained in European culture. So Voltaire, Kant (two of the great anti-Semites ever) et caterva were all using the same chimeral and demonological (and highly emotional) anti-Semitic christian medieval classics, while claiming to be champions of reason. They weren´t even AWARE. This is splendidly dissected in Hyam Maccoby´s masterpiece, “Anti-semitism and modernity”.

                • Never mind, SerJew. We had the greatest, David Hume, who said:

                  “The Christian religion not only was at first attended with miracles, but even at this day cannot be believed by any reasonable person without one”

                  And despite Britain’s betrayals the massive determination of Jews succeeded as opposed to the Arabs who benefited to no good end. And just look at the countries France was involved with.

                • That´s true. Not all philosophes were anti-Semitic. Voltaire, however, was a rabid Jew-hater and his crusade against the Church, no matter how important at the time, is no excuse for his poisonous legacy. Macobby paints Rousseau as philo-semitic, but who wants the support from that authoritarian nutter, that was the inspiration of monsters such as Robespierre and the Jacobins? In fact, some say Rousseau was a proto-fascist.

                  Things got really bad not with the Enlightenment per se, but with the Counter-Enlightenment reaction, particular with the Romantics and the German revolutionaries. And from Left and Right. Fortunately the English could never stomach German idealistic non-sense, the crap created by Hegel, Herder, Fitche, Marx and many others. It seems that Nietzsche was more ambivalent toward the Jews: he admired them and couldn´t stand anti-Semites; but he also created an image of Jews as hyperpowerful, leading to a type of conspiratorial and traitorous concept of a nation-within-a-nation.

                  But the king of charlatanism and father of post-modern trash goes to prrrrrrofessorrrrrr Heidegger, a giant fraud and a committed nazi, who scribble uncomprehensible babble that passed for profundity.

        • “If Adam wants to improve the standards of CiFWatch by trying to stamp out the kind of adolescent nonsense that you routinely spout, then kudos to him.” doo-doo

          Aww, and this coming from a certified liar that blamed anti-Semitism on Zionism? And who cited “Mein Kampf” to indict the Jews?

          Give us a break. In any normal universe you´d have been kicked out of any forum whatsoever. Your luck is that we live in a crazy PC-dominated universe, where hate speech like yours, that a coupe of years ago would be barred except in neo-nazi parades, are now somehow “acceptable”.

          “I think that the Guardian posts some articles that are on the spectrum of anti-Semitism.” doo-doo

          YOU are the perfect Guardianista, doc doo-doo. Don´t put this mask of objectivity. IT DOESN´T WORK ANYMORE.

          • “Aww, and this coming from a certified liar that blamed anti-Semitism on Zionism?”

            Except, of course, that I didn’t. And in spite of your “disproportionate Jewish talent”, you are, yet again, unable to back up what you’re writing.

            Please continue to fail to mount an intellectual defence of your allegations. If nothing else, you are at least (unwittingly) combating anti-Semitism by helping dispel the racist myth of “disproportionate Jewish talent”.

            • Calm down, doo-doo. You are too self-defensive today. What´s going on? Are you down, now that your little masquerade is over?
              And, tone down your demandings, will you? You are the contumacious liar here, so you have NO credibility to demand a thing.

              And, I have to tell you, only someone with very low self-esteem can conflate talent with racism.

              Yeah, disturbing…disturbing…

              • Perhaps your “disproportionate Jewish talent” affords you the right to make baseless allegations without the need to back them up. Duly noted.

                For the rest of the world that doesn’t buy into your anti-Semitic notions, we will just assume that you are simply unable to mount an intellectual defence of your drivel.

              • And an incapacity in the English language. Claims “won’t” means “can’t”. A very diseased ego, I fear.

                • And, SerJew, I’m utterly tired of this shapeshifter. Anne of the Opinions has his number, too.

                  I think he should follow Berchmans.

                • Indeed, and he once complained of my mangled English, that I recognize is far from good. As for his ego, my impression that doo-doo desperately needs to inflate it a lot in order to bear his/her own mediocrity.

                  Also, doo-doo is a little hysterical tonight, I don´t know why.

                • Nice blog. Interesting stuff. I particularly liked the “greatest accomplishement of ZIonism”. Yeah, now Jews are feared as bullies. Much better than the time their were digging their own graves before being shot in those nice forests of Europe, which was really the only type of “assimilation” that brave continent envisaged for the Jews.

      • SerJew, I like your deconstruction of the anti-Semitic motives underlying Dubitantes obsessional tirades against Israel, but disagree that they shouldn’t be posted. They represent an essential argument in why Israel SHOULD exist, and its triumph over the malice and hatred personified by Dubitante.

          • “You feel that my accurately the citing the documentary record constitutes malice and hatred, and SerJew’s failure to do the same constitutes deconstruction?

            Reality inversion?”

            Adam is there any possibility of having a subtitle system here that can translate the above unintelligible drivel into English?

            • It´s funny though, to watch doo-doo´s desperation, now. Where´s that passive-agressive stance? Where´s that pose of objectivity? Where´s that professorial lecturing style?

              All masks are off. Gone.

            • I think SerJew is doing that pretty well. I don’t know the jargon but he is a clear guide.

              I do know English which helps with the verbiage from Siverstein’s hollow reject. “Get thee to Mondoweiss” (or Stormfront) is really all the response that’s deserved so SerJew is the icing on the cake.

              Zionist icing and cake. of course.

        • Thanx, Groovy, though I´m not fond of the term “deconstruction”, one of those classical post-modernist ruse-words they invented to make their non-sense sound sophisticated. I just did a little analysis to unmask the obvious tricks of doc doo-doo.

  18. “For the rest of the world that doesn’t buy into your anti-Semitic notions, we will just assume that you are simply unable to mount an intellectual defence of your drivel.” doo-doo

    Well, I couldn´t care less for this classical argument ad populum. This is a recurrent tactic that people like you love to use when losing a debate. Once again, using your postmodernistic magical powers you INVENT an allegen “world consesus” to use it to back up your lies. Pretty lame, doo-doo.

    And it brings up a couple of other questions. Who the hell are you to think you can speak on behalf of the world? Did you ask each and every person of that mighty set or do you talk directly to the Rousseauian “General Will”?

    Second, since when consensus equals truth? Some centuries ago, “the world” believed the Earth was flat. And billions today think that a black meteorite has some supernatural powers. Did people of “the rest of the world” voted for you to represent them?

    Finally, you are so hysterically nervous today, that you made two more blunders. For, after lecturing us all on the dangers of sweeping generalization, you came up *once again* (after talk about “corporate media” and “most Jews were against this and that”) with the sweepest of the generalization: you claim to know what “the rest of the world” thinks.
    And here again, you made another grave mistake: I can use your litteralistic sophomoric trick to remind you, prof doo-doo, that “the world” is not a person, so in cannot think. Q.E.D.

    You are sooo funny, doo-doo. And pathetic. Nah, you are both.

    • “This is a recurrent tactic that people like you love to use when losing a debate.”

      We’re not having a debate. I’m citing the documentary record, you’re putting your fingers in your ears.

      How many posts have you made? And yet you have ***STILL*** failed to back up a single allegation, in spite of your “disproportionate Jewish talent”. I’m impressed with your squirming, I genuinely am. Trying to get you to back up a single thing you’ve written is like trying to get an eel into a bottle. You should enter politics.

      • “You should enter politics.” doo-doo

        You should enter a mental institution. Or join a neo-nazi-party. Or join a Salafist gang. Or go save the whales. Or go hiking in Saint Helena. Or write a PhD thesis on Hamas. Or whatever.

        But, you are right. There´s absolutely no possibility of establishing a debate with a fraudster like you. You just can´t. You don´t have the basic skills. Like logic, intellectual honesty, depth and self-criticism. You are just a run-of-the-mill very mediocre judeophobic ideologue, with a huge ego problem.

  19. “There´s absolutely no possibility of establishing a debate with a fraudster like you. You just can´t. You don´t have the basic skills. Like logic, intellectual honesty”

    Basic skills like being able to back up what you say? Yes, I can see why you are unsuited to debate.

    Politics would be more your thing. Then you could continue to say ridiculous things and no one would even ask you to back them up.

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