+972 and a revealing Twitter exchange between CiF Watch and a radical left Israeli Jew


Yossi Gurvitz is a 40-year old journalist, blogger and photographer who writes for several Israeli publications, including the financial daily Calcalist and the Nana portal, and +972.

Notes Gurvitz on his bio at +972:

 “I was raised as an Orthodox Jew, graduated from a Yeshiva (Nehalim), but saw the light and turned atheist at about the age of 17.”

Gurvitz also believes that Israel is one of the main causes international anti-Semitism.

In an essay he published at +972 in September 2010, The Jewish Problem”, he suggests that anti-Semitism in Europe is an understandable reaction by non-Jews to Israeli policy, and that the reactionary anti-Semitic canard that Jews outside of Israel are more loyal to Israel than their own country is the fault, not of those who hold such views, but of modern Zionism.

Says Gurvitz:

“We now see that the creation of Israel  did not solve any problem. Rather, Israel is itself becoming the problem of the Jews.” 

“[Israel] almost singularly, [is] responsible for creation of a new anti-Semitic [canards].”

Recently, CiF Watch engaged in a Twitter exchange with Gurvitz, which elicited some revealing comments.

The conversation arose as the result of a disagreement that Gurvitz was having with two writers who oppose the existence of a Jewish state within any borders – Ben White (@benabyad) (author of Israel Apartheid for Beginners) and Ali Abunimah (@avinunu) (author of One Country: A Bold-Proposal to End the Israeli-Palestinian Impasse). 

(Note: Gurvitz has an NIF horn in his twitter image, though he claims not to be connected to NIF). 

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123 comments on “+972 and a revealing Twitter exchange between CiF Watch and a radical left Israeli Jew

  1. “Freedom of speech” should not include the right to commit treason.

    When is Israel going to learn to put those like Gurvitz either in prison, or onto a plane out of the country?

    • That’s too harsh. It would suffice to take the megaphone (such as Haaretz) away from them. The problem isn’t so much that they speak as that their voice is the only one heard—especially when you consider the majority of the Israeli Jewish public today can no longer stand their way of thinking.

    • Common Sense,

      Not doing what you state makes Israel stronger and worth dying for.

      Other wise it would be another middle Eastern s**t hole.

      If you don’t understand that you are no different to our enemies.

    • The good…the bad…and the ugly… certainly this Gurvitz fella is the ugly one in our midst.

      Had it not been for Israel, Jews after WWII would have in all likelihood disappeared around the world, at least as thriving secular communities. A few ultra Orthodox men here and there would be it today without a sovereign Jewish state.

      We coalesce around the Jewish state because Israel is the only meaningful guarantee of national survival.

  2. “When is Israel going to learn to put those like Gurvitz either in prison, or onto a plane out of the country?”

    When we’ll be called Syria. Or Saudi Arabia. Or… you name it, Common Sense. If you think that all people you disagree with should be jailed, you must inhabit an interesting place.

  3. And for Yossi Gurvitz, Adam – I don’t know how much of what he says is sincere belief and how much is posturing for the sake of being considered original. The whole kishkush about Jews not being a people, debunked by so many people so many times will never be eradicated fully. Like idiocy. Koestler, Sand, etc. – they pop up in every generation, it seems, to make some PR out of sheer bullshit.

    • Hi Snoopy,

      As far as whether Gurvitz is merely posturing…I admittedly don’t know.

      However, while I understand that some on the far left are inspired to espouse such views out of moral vanity (their wish to be seen as righteous, radical, original, etc., which, in their take on the modern political zeitgeist, seems incompatible with “their parents’ Zionism”), I still think their rhetoric is no less injurious.

      It may be a cliche but is no less true that what is seen as radical in one generation is often the accepted wisdom of the next generation.

      As always, nice to hear from you.

    • I had a great exchange about this yesterday over dinner with a friend who happen to practice law in the UK.

      He did not agree with me that Judaism is more than a religion.

      eventualy we settled on being more than a religion on the ground of being a culture.

      As for Gurvitz’ question about how one becomes a Jew?

      The answer:

      Being born to a Jewish woman.

      This takes us back to “who is a Jew?”

      Clearly Gurvitz has some left over residue from his religious past.

      I do not believe in god, never have, born and raised in a secular kibbutz in Israel, raising the Israeli flag every memorial day, having Jewish festivals in a 2light2 manner yet join some volunteers as a kid to see what is Christmas dinner.

      I consider myself a Jew.

      Why?

      Because I am over protective of my kids, teach them our tradition and the morals and values i draw out of each one, and because I am “god damn argumentative”.

      My dear wife say if I met you in the street and spoke to you I’d guess you are Jewish.

      So Mr. Gurvitz, how can you explain I take pride of a heritege I consider belonging to, even though I clearly do not eat kosher or am religious?

      Because it is a “Leom” (nationality) and not only a “Dat” (religion).

      Cest tu.

  4. I am surprised at his denial of Jews as a racial as well as a religious group.
    To quote from the Crown Prosecution Service document ‘Racist and Religious Crime- CPS Prosecution Policy’

    “Racial group- this is a legal definition and means any group of people who are defined by reference to their race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin. This could include travellers, refugees, or asylum seekers or others from less visible minorities. There has been a legal ruling that Jews and Sikhs are included in the definition of a racial group.”

    I emphasise the last sentence.

    Anyone who wants to check my source, it’s on page 3 of the CPS policy document.

      • “Race and ethnicity are oft confused terms.” Wrong the legal definition and the document are very clear.

        “We typically use race to mean biological/genetic make up, and ethnicity to mean learned behaviours and customs.”
        Wrong again.
        You might confuse the terms, but as usual you seem to believe that if YOU believe something then it must be correct.
        I feel sorry for you the truth and facts must be incredibly inconvenient to you.

        • “Wrong the legal definition and the document are very clear.”

          All of a sudden you’re accepting legal definitions? Strange how your mind works.

          From the Oxford English Dictionary:

          Ethnicity: “the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition”

          Race: “each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics”

          But the confusion comes because race can also be defined as:

          a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group

          So race *can* be viewed as almost a synonym of ethnicity, and it can also be viewed as a biological descriptor. Hence the confusion that I often see.

          Sorry to quote the OED as an authoritative source. I know that means that you have to disagree with it now.

            • It doesn’t. I was merely pointing out that sometimes race and ethnicity can mean the same thing and sometimes they mean different things.

              Sometimes race is a biological descriptor, and sometimes it can be used as a synonym for ethnicity.

              • Okay,
                I get your point now.
                This is indeed confusing to many people and Judaism can be seen unique in this aspect.

          • @ Dubitante,

            “Ethnicity: “the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition”

            Dear, the weight in your sentence should be on “cultural tradition”.

            Jews, whether religious or secular, share a commen tradition.

            The bending of these traditions depend on their family, but most are similar and can be identified easily whether in Etheopia, Russia, Argentina or India.

            I have never celebrated Simchat Torah with one exception.

            On traveling to Poland at the age of 17 we went to see the big synagogue in Krakow on our last day which happened to be the eve of Simchat Torah.

            We just knew what we needed to do and fealt we belong in that place that evening.

            We fealt it even stronger when we came out and a bunch of skin heads started throwing stones at us.

  5. So I see that Gurwitz is less than logical. The Jews are not a people but members of a primitive religion to him. No motive therefore emerges for him to live in Israel among practitioners of that primitive religion or among the members of the non-people

    Nonetheless, he chooses to live in Petah Tikve

    His attachment to Israel seems to be sentimental, where he rather jealously accuses ‘cifwatch’ of not being an Israeli while he himself is remarkably possessive one.

    His political theory is also out of whack, talking of a ‘racial theocracy’ A theocracy would mean that we (I’m also an ‘Israeli’) are governed by the laws of our religion, which would mean that we would be for instance forbidden by law to drive cars on Shabbat.

    A ‘racial theocracy’ would possibly mean that our race is our religion which contradicts his other claims. Perhaps he was just hurling words & insults and hoping against hope that one would stick. (I reckon it was the latter)

    • Israel isn’t Iran, but it’s flirting with a lot of the same concepts.

      If it wasn’t, Israeli leaders would be completely happy with recognition of Israel as a democratic state of its citizens, rather than an ethno-religiously discriminatory “Jewish State”.

      • “…a democratic state of its citizens,…”

        If you mean multiculturalism, you should know that’s one of history’s failed experiments. Wherever putting multiple nations under the same political roof has been tried, there it has ended in seething contempt at best (Belgium), and genocide at worst (Lebanon, Yugoslavia, Iraq).

        It doesn’t work, admitting to one’s house as equals those who aren’t members of your family. It doesn’t make for a safe and peaceful house. Like the scene in Doktor Zhivago where he finds his house given to strangers, it’s contrary to human dignity. The Brits say, “A man’s house is his castle.” The state is the nation’s house, therefore it should be its castle. Otherwise, it is as good as having no state at all. Multiculturalism has made nations practically stateless in their own states.

        I believe the Jews have the right to an exclusivist nation-state, and I believe all other (real) nations have the same right. Such states are the wave of the future, because nations that won’t adopt this sane model simply won’t survive.

          • “Purity of race eh?”

            No. You see, that’s just like you Marxists: Always attacking a strawman instead of the real argument; and always bringing the Race Card wherever possible.

            The State As Its Nation’s Castle. That’s it. How the nation is defined is up to the nation, so long as it has something positive to show for its nationhood. Many nations are defined by ancestry, but not all—the Jewish nation is genetically open because of the possibility of conversion. It doesn’t matter. A nation, by whatever definition it has, is entitled to the protective space of its state, where only members of it have political rights. You’d say non-members might find that unfair? It isn’t, because they can go to their state, where they enjoy exclusive political rights. That way everyone’s happy. Far, far better than putting multiple nations under the same political framework, which is a recipe for strife, or worse.

            I must stress that I’m not stating how the world should be. Nations other than the Jewish aren’t my business, so they can choose multicultural suicide for all I care. The reason I say all nations have a right to an exclusivist state is to ward off the accusation of Jewish supremacism: This right is something I think all nations, not just the Jewish nation, have.

            You go on with your advocacy of multiculturalism and your putting down of all opposition to it as “racism.” I’m used to those tactics. Let me just say, that if computer operating systems were designed the way multiculturalism works, with no protection for software processes from trampling on each other or wiping out the OS itself, our computers would be useless for performing more than one task at the same time. And if you say, “Human beings aren’t software processes!”, then I agree: They’re much worse than software processes, having human foibles such as pride and malice, therefore much more in need of measures that minimize friction between them. Those idealistic, utopian “states of all their citizens” you Marxists advocate are like a tightrope with no safety net underneath.

            • I’m a Marxist now?

              I lost count of the misdirections and straw man arguments around the time you introduced software.

              “so long as it has something positive to show for its nationhood”

              This is what fascinates me. Prior to say 1891, what “positives” did the “Jewish People” have to claim their nationhood? Given that they cared so little about their history that not a single Jewish history book was written between the 1st and 19 centuries – for nearly 2000 years.

              And why, if Jews were united in nationhood, was Zionism widely held by European Jewry to be aligned with anti-Semitism in the early 20th century?

              • Given that they cared so little about their history that not a single Jewish history book was written between the 1st and 19 centuries – for nearly 2000 years.

                Not like the Palestinians. The Library of the LSE is full of palestinian history books written diring these centuries.

                • psssst – I’m not trying to paint Palestinians as some uber cohesive national group, like our dishonest friend here is doing with the “Jewish nation”.

                  Every point he puts forward for Jewish nationhood prior to Zionism has been easily knocked down. Other than a common religion, there was nothing at all linking Jews in different countries.

                  Palestinians are at least linked by land, language, culture, a common history etc. Even Ben Gurion viewed they Arabs of Palestine as ethnically distinct, not that our factually challenged compadre would admit it.

              • “I’m a Marxist now?”

                You talk like them.

                “I lost count of the misdirections and straw man arguments…”

                You didn’t lose count, you can’t count a single one. If you could, you’d say what it was, like I said exactly what your strawman was when you wrote that “racial purity” inanity.

                “Prior to say 1891, what ‘positives’ did the ‘Jewish People’ have to claim their nationhood?”

                We’ve been through this on the other thread. Just to summarize: Religion, language (Hebrew) and culture. Still waiting for the positive traits marking the Arab settler-colonists in Palestine as a nation.

                • “Just to summarize: Religion, language (Hebrew) and culture. Still waiting for the positive traits marking the Arab settler-colonists in Palestine as a nation.”

                  Really? Hebrew as a common language? It was extinct as a regularly spoken language by the 4th century, and not revived until…..that’s right, the late 19th century, give the man a cigar.

                  So a dead language (revived with the invention of Jewish nationalism), no history to speak of for nearly 2000 years. No cultural similarities across all the different countries.

                  Not quite the cohesive nation you paint is it?

                • We should also add: – No common homeland they had occupied for centuries.

                  So, the Palestinians have a home land they have occupied for centuries, a common language, arguably a common religion (or at least a most prevalent one), a common culture, a common history…

                  All of a sudden, the Palestinians seem to have a far more established nationhood than Jews during the emergence of Zionism. Funny that.

                • “Really? Hebrew as a common language? It was extinct as a regularly spoken language by the 4th century,…”

                  I already addressed that in the other thread. Stop derailing.

                  “…no history to speak of for nearly 2000 years.”

                  Why am I wasting my time with someone who’s into an exercise almost thirtyfold worse than Holocaust denial? Denial not of something that happened 70 years ago, but 2000 years of recorded (whether or not by Jews) and established history.

                  I’m just going to tie this up:

                  “So, the Palestinians have a home land…”

                  In the sense Alexander’s troops could call Bactria and Gandhara their homeland, yes. Doesn’t mean Greeks are the Afghan nation, though.

                  “…a common language,…”

                  Which they share with people in Morocco and Iraq. I never denied the Arabs are a nation. It’s just that they aren’t Palestinians.

                  “…a common religion…”

                  Again, shared with millions outside of Palestine. Something uniquely Palestinian, please! Oh, there isn’t any, except when talking about the Jews? Tough luck, anti-Zionists.

                  “…a common culture,…”

                  None to speak of. Their traditional dress is general Levantine, not particular Palestinian. Their music is general Arab, not particular Palestinian. Once again: Nothing unique to Palestine.

                  “…a common history…”

                  Of course. That’s why they didn’t call themselves anything more restricted than “Syrians” until the British and the French split Greater Syria between themselves. And “Palestinians” only after the War of 1947–9.

                  You compared Zionism to Nazism on the other thread, but all I can hear is the sound from hell of Goebbels patting you on the back for surpassing him in his craft.

                  I think I’m done. Too much in the Bizarro World of anti-Zionism could make a person insane. Time to unplug from this Matrix and go back to reality.

                • Your argument is stillborn. You haven’t been able to get around the fact that Hebrew was extinct as a spoken language for 1500 years, Jews in different countries were culturally distinct, and there was no concept of a Jewish people before the late 19th century.

                  Your arguments do, however, if I’m reading them right, provide a startling level of support for pan-Arabism. Which is rather odd. If Arabs were one giant nation, and the state was their castle, what right did the Zionist enterprise have to drive out the Arabs of Palestine and unilaterally declare Israel to exist in the middle of this pan-Arabic nation?

                  Puzzle on that for a while.

              • “Given that they cared so little about their history that not a single Jewish history book was written between the 1st and 19 centuries – for nearly 2000 years.”

                Why do you think that is?

                Books burn easily you imbacile.
                Jews fled all the time.
                Having to move from Pogrom to Pogrom.
                They didn’t wake up one day and decided to write.
                The emancipation in europe created the ground and rights for them to settle and once settled new jobs were available for them and stability arrived (at least for some and only for a short period).

                Jewish literature is ripe between the eras you mention against all odds.

                The Kabala, Zoahr etc were just a few philosophy books the Jewish scholar worked on.
                Never the less we know what the Jews went through in Europe and in mid east – far east lands during those periods.

                Don’t get me wrong I disagree with Ziontruth ideas but it is his opinion.
                Your wording seems as an attempt to discredit what you already agreed on earlier.

                Make up your mind.

                • Dubitante:
                  “You haven’t been able to get around the fact that Hebrew was extinct as a spoken language for 1500 years,”

                  Hebrew was never a spoken language.
                  It is called “Sfat HaKodesh” (the holy language).
                  Jews accross were always able to read it (just like turks can read arabic in the Koran but have no idea what they are saying).
                  The spoken language was Aramaic and Greek.
                  Aramaic and some of the Hebrew are still spoken and were always spoken in hollidays such as Pesach and in Shabbat service.

                  I believe this is a unified aspect of the Jewish culture through out history.

                  A certain individual chose to use Hebrew as a spoken language in the 19 century since the immigrants spoke various languages such as German or Russian.
                  Eliezer Ben-Yehuda thought these languages have nothing with Judaism (rightly so) and revived Hebrew.

                  Modern Hebrew is the result.

          • YOU might, but then you’d probably start a pogrom with yourself in a sealed room and blame that on the Israelis.

            Seriously, why are you using such loaded vocabulary? Was that one of the achievement targets of “Hate Israel 101″?

        • ZionTruth.

          I’m afraid I disgree with you on this one (the multiculturalism bit).

          According to you my kids are basically “failure” and are nothing but intruders..

          Well, Their father (me) is half Polish, half German / Czech (origin Austro Hungary) – and was born and raised in Israel.
          Their mother is French.
          We had both our children in the UK and they see themselves as English even though they have 2 passports – none of which is British – since they are not 16 yet.

      • How about British kingdom, dubitante (to take one example of a most democratic state)?

        Why do you consider that “Jewish state” necessarily means an “ethno-religiously discriminatory” one?

        Don’t you see Israel being recognized as Jewish state having its chief value outside of Israel rather then inside?

        • If the Israeli people want to formally define the ethnic characteristics of their state, that it totally up to them. But why force this recognition on just one tiny fledgling state on the planet (Palestine)?

          Could it have anything to do with…..shhhh….refugees?

            • :) From how many countries does Israel demand recognition as a Jewish state?

              Just one. Palestine. Why is that? Could it be that a Jewish state requires a Jewish majority? And that a Jewish majority is incompatible with the legal right of return of the refugees?

              • ” From how many countries does Israel demand recognition as a Jewish state?

                Just one. Palestine.”

                Dubitante,

                Palestine (or Judea as it was called before the Romans changed the name) is a region not a state.
                The region actualt goes into Syria and all the way to modern day Iraq, it carries north into Leabnon in some areas).

                British mandated Palestine was already promissed to the Jews before the Mandate was given to Britain.
                In fact it was even before the war ended (1917).

                King Faisal disagree with you and thought the Zionist project is a good idea and the Jews in that area deserve to have that area and will benefit the region through development.

                I guess you know better than king Faisal.

                • “British mandated Palestine was already promissed to the Jews before the Mandate was given to Britain.
                  In fact it was even before the war ended (1917).”

                  And promised for Arab independence before that (1915-1916). Timelines are funny aren’t they?

                  The only scholarly debate is over whether the area of the original mandate included was included in the promise for Arab independence. There is substantial evidence that it was, but I don’t claim to offer a definitive opinion.

                • Lat paragraph should have read:

                  The only scholarly debate is over whether the area west of the Jordan was included in the promise for Arab independence. There is substantial evidence that it was, but I don’t claim to offer a definitive opinion.

      • No one is suggesting that Iran does not have the right to consider itself a Persian country. That’s one difference, that and the fact that Israel extends equality under the law to all religious and ethnic groups, something that Iran has failed at.

        The fact that a group traditionally consigned to second-class citizenship across the Middle East and North Africa, as well as Europe, when they manage to secure national independence, should want to make it clear who they are, and what the nation represents, is not at all surprising.

        Meanwhile, several states that define themselves as Arab nations in their national names are…well…not the cause of nearly so much handwringing as Israel is.

    • Gerald,

      “Nonetheless, he chooses to live in Petah Tikve”

      I think he chooses to live in Israel as a birth right.
      Maybe he chooses Petah Tikva because it has a great Pediatric dept in Beilinson Hospital, and since he behaves in a slightly juvenile manner…
      :)

    • I have noticed that frustrated radical irrational lefties all over the world often get their jollies by accusing Israelis of being dominated by religious Jews.

      At the same time they dismiss the obvious deep religious motifs that underlie the Muslim/Arab/Palestinian obsession with destroying the Democratic Jewish State of Israel.

      As a radical atheist Jew living in Israel, I can tell him that it’s all ‘in his head’ and he should ‘get out more’. (ie. Find a good friend who he can talk to).

  6. I am not surprised, Gerald. For some people, like Mr Sand, Mr Gurvitz and their ilk the issue is a source of scandalous livelihood. I mean, why would you seriously argue the question with a professor that made his obscure career in history of French cinema? And then suddenly decided that his calling is to discover new facts of Jewish origins?

  7. I am surprised at his denial of Jews as a racial as well as a religious group

    I have some more surprises for you. There are blue-eyed, blond haired Russian Jews and black, Ethiopian Jews. Then we have Yemenites, who are for all non-religious practices Arabs, and Polish Jews who look suspiciously like Cossacks. And we haven’t even mentioned Indian Jews or the “mountain Jews” of the Caucasus mountains.

    So, if the CPS wants to claim they all belong the same “race”, they certainly have the right to do so, but don’t expect me to take them seriously.

    • Surprise? And what if one shows you black-haired hazel-eyed Germans or slant-eyed Russians? Yossi, I didn’t mention idiocy for nothing. You and professor Sand set the target (“Jews are not people”) and try to get to it no matter what, including by confusing “people” with “race”.

      When one tries to shove all the collected DNA evidence in your faces, you just close your eyes. So let’s say that every person who says so is a Jew. Would this give you a break? Could you settle on this?

      Somehow I doubt, since who is a Jew is not the real issue for you, am I right or am I right?

    • Mr. Gurvitz no I’m not surprised by your first paragraph, I was aware already.
      But thank you for your kind attempt I do so enjoy a surprise, even a failed one.
      Whether you take the CPS seriously or not is a choice for you, but, your misinterpretation of what is meant by the term ‘Racial Group’ leads me to seriously doubt I’ll be taking your writing seriously.

    • Yossi, It’s all to do with cultural identity, not race as “Geza”.

      You may have issues, like I do, with the religious strengle hold on the mister of interior and the religious courts.

      But tell me, which country does not have some form of racial descrimination or segragation?

      Some people just won’t leave their cultural habits behind.
      Between Israelis and Palestinians I believe the Israeli managed to let go a lot more.

      The fact that you escaped your family says it all.
      I’ve seen this Druze guy on master chef the other week, and the guy was a lovely young man who happened to be gay.

      He was telling how he could not get back to his village – let alone his family.
      He was crushed, mentaly tired.

      Yet he found friends in Tel Aviv and moved on carried the motifs he liked from his culture with pride and dropping the ones he thought were bad.

      Isn’t this what’s it all about?
      how’s Israel being what it is gets in the way of this?
      And if it does gets in the way how come this was on Channel 2 – prime time Friday night?

    • Yossi, would you really likes us to care what you take seriously? Is that the fundamental postulate of your life position – that your views alone, your ideas however off the wall, are true and certain and based on great erudition whereas those of any who disagree with your.. er… somewhat idiosyncratic views about the Jewish race of which you are a member are of no import? Does it make you uncomfortable that we don’t agree with you wholeheartedly? Does it make you angry with us?

      Why ARE you still a Jew and why would a sane person choose to live in a state he thinks doesn’t deserve to exist?

  8. No motive therefore emerges for him to live in Israel among practitioners of that primitive religion or among the members of the non-people

    Nonetheless, he chooses to live in Petah Tikve

    I’ve moved to Tel Aviv recently, FYI.

    I know a rightwing Jew will have a hard time grasping this concept, but I live in Israel because, well, I was born in it, most of my friends live here, and Hebrew will always be my first language and the one I think in. I don’t need an ideological reason to live where I’ve always lived. It’s called being home. You should try it sometime.

    • I know a rightwing Jew will have a hard time grasping this concept, but I live in Israel because, well, I was born in it, most of my friends live here, and Hebrew will always be my first language and the one I think in. I don’t need an ideological reason to live where I’ve always lived. It’s called being home. You should try it sometime.

      This is your right and you are free to do it mainly because these “rightwing” Jews are serving in the army, making miluim protecting you from being killed or deported from here. I understand that Zionism that makes this right available for every other Jew apart from you and your friends is not your thing.
      Who gives a shit for the others when you can show your beautiful humanistic anti-Zionist soul to the world?

  9. The Jews are not a people but members of a primitive religion to him

    Indeed. And more than unusually primitive: Maimonides, hailed as the greatest of sages, dictated that if a Jew rapes a gentile woman of more than three years, the victim is to be executed because the enthralled the walking Jewish penis by her wiles. I don’t think you can get much more primitive than that.

    • When was the last time someone was executed?

      Please hand the details to the Police.

      BTW, Yossi,

      Why was I – an Israeli left wing like you – call a friedman by an Arab every 2 seconds when he served me the Shawarma?

      I had no idea but Firedman is a derogeratory term for Askenazi Jews.

      Do you think this is acceptable?

      I think you’d find the region is back word, end of story.
      at least Israelis try to move forward.
      A bit hard when you are under attack for over 80 years…

    • Are you quite sure of this? I find it rather interesting that of all the examples you could choose to substantiate your points you choose a particularly salacious one which deals with child rape unless your English is wrong. That reveals a great deal about your unconscious Yossi.

      (Of course, I shan’t compare what you argue about Miamonides to Mohammud’s actual predilection for having congress with little girls)

  10. ‘I know a rightwing Jew will have a hard time grasping this concept, ‘
    Right, we’re all born stupid – it’s a racial trait among Jews. And we’re all right wing because we disagree with Gurwitz on some points.

    Maimonides isn’t Judaism (did you think it was?) and Judaism, as distinct from some other religions I would mention if they didn’t bore me to death, doesn’t think it has to relive every second of every day of its founder’s or its prophets’ lives.

    And OMIGOD I do apologise for not knowing every minutia of your life. I was SO wrong about your moving to Tel Aviv. I do concede that point.

    • Maimonides isn’t Judaism? That may come as a surprise for many Jews.

      But wait, is Yossef Carro, writer of the Shulchan Aruch, also “not Judaism”? Apostate Jews may be relived to hear that, because he ordered them murdered without trial.

      Any other prominent Jews you think are “not Judaism”? Kook, for instance, who said the difference between a Jew and a gentile is greater than that between man and beast? Yehuda Halevi, who pre-empted Hitler by some 700 by declaring that Jews are the pinnacle of creation, a step above normal humans?

      • And is it your point that these obviously unsuitable precepts are followed by today’s mainstream Jews making Judaism a primitive religion?

              • I don’t believe you. You may have grown up in and rebelled against an ultra-religious family, as did my mother, but the views of mainstream israelis do not coalesce with the views of the religious throw-backs.

                • Of course they don’t, zeitgoose, except in Yossi’s solipsistic existence. And this is yet another example of his narcissism.

          • Outcast by whom, Yossi? They didn’t cast YOU out, did they, and you are far more of an embarrassment to them.

      • Bingo!

        Yossi you are a narcissist, aren’t you and that must lead you into no end of trouble.

        See how you didn’t miss the opportunity to “educate” your “inferiors” about the dark side of Judaism.

        Do you know as much about the much darker side of Islam? I would imagine not.

      • Another point about Miamonides – he was discussing the ancient laws anyway and the filth you describe (straight from Shahak – you plainly haven’t the sense to study Miamonides properly and contextually which is probably why you failed at Yeshiva) belonged in that time only and Miamonides knew it.

  11. @dubitante

    If there was no race of Jews it would not have been possible for the Europeans to identify them for the purpose of genocide between 1931 and 1945.

    You’re a Jew if your mother is a Jew or you convert to Judaism. The majority of Jews are secular. As a secular state, Israel’s laws apply equally to citizens of all religious and ethnic groups. Her commitment to the protection of the interests and rights of minorities is second to none in the world and would shame her enemies if they were capable of shame.

    One of the reasons why i support the idea of a national state for the Jewish people is that I will be able to defend myself and our people there when the retarded racists and religious bigots of other faiths get together for their next Jewish genocide jamboree. Why am i not surprised you don’t like that idea?

    • “If there was no race of Jews it would not have been possible for the Europeans to identify them for the purpose of genocide between 1931 and 1945.”

      People can’t be identified by custom or behaviour (i.e. ethnicity)?

      “As a secular state, Israel’s laws apply equally to citizens of all religious and ethnic groups.”

      Really? Does the Law of Return apply equally to citizens of all religious and ethnic groups.

      • Does the German “law of return” apply equally to citizens of all religious and ethnic groups? No, it doesn’t so according to your logic, Germany can’t claim that it’s laws apply equally to all citizens etc? Bollocks, stop being so petty.

        • Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed can’t return to their homes in spite of this being their legal right, but if if the guy next door converts to Judaism he can return to Israel, a country he has never seen?

          Do you think the refugees think it’s petty?

          • “Ethnic cleansing” is such an emotive term isn’t it? In this case it is libellous.

            The arabs that were removed forcibly were removed because they posed a threat. If it had been a policy of ethnic cleansing there would not be 2 million of them living in Israel.

            The jews forced out of arab lands in ’48 WERE ethnically cleansed.

            Oh, and the guy who converts to Judaism and goes to live in israel is not “returning”

            • “The arabs that were removed forcibly were removed because they posed a threat.”

              Have you ever read accounts of the cleansings? That’s a shocking argument to make.

              “The jews forced out of arab lands in ’48 WERE ethnically cleansed.”

              Some of them certainly were. Some of them weren’t. It was a very different process, and a lot more varied. Some were rescued from very dangerous situations, some left of their own accord, some refused to accept refugee status as they were “returning home”.

          • How about Germans ethnically cleansed from the part that were given over to Poland, France and Soviets after WWII? Do you think they think it’s petty (or pretty, whatever)?

            Don’t you think that victors in a war started by the losers deserve some spoils? Or do you think that this rule applies only to superpowers?

            Or, probably, you will refer us all to the new age of enlightenment that we have entered after WWII? Which is a wrong answer too, seeing as how the map of the world was re-cut many times after that.

        • Ireland similarly offers citizenship to people who can prove recent Irish ancestry. Those bigots!

          Inversely, Iraq wrote their new constitution with deliberation to prevent Jews who were expelled from the country, or their children, from returning and regaining citizenship.

      • The Jews who could not be identified by “behaviour ” were identified by birth records and other data collected by the nazis and their colaborators.

        The law of return does not apply to 800,000 Jewish refugees from arab lands. If you believe it should be applicable to millions of descendants of arab refugees and their desendants too, notwithstanding the pracitcal implications, then it is for one reason only- the destruction of the Israeli state.

        Well I’ve got news for you, sonny. It ain’t gonna happen. You’ll die trying but you’ll never succeed. Doesn’t the sheer waste of life over primitive notions about honour and religius hatred make you stop and think for a moment that you could be misguided?

        You have been tried and found wanting. When are you going to get on with your lives and try to do something constructive with them?

        • “The law of return does not apply to 800,000 Jewish refugees from arab lands.”

          Pretty sure the Knesset can’t pass laws binding on other states.

          “If you believe it should be applicable to millions of descendants of arab refugees and their desendants too, notwithstanding the pracitcal implications, then it is for one reason only- the destruction of the Israeli state.”

          If Israel’s character is so weak that it cannot withstand taking responsibility for crimes it committed, it’s time to take a long hard look at what Israel is. Keeping refugees piled up in camps to protect Israel’s Jewish character is a pathetic and immoral argument.

          • The “crimes [Israel] committed”?

            You are a nutter. Did Yasser Arafat write a Little Green Book?
            Or are your “ideas” from the rotten old Nazi Mufti?

  12. Keeping refugees piled up in camps to protect Israel’s Jewish character is a pathetic and immoral argument.

    Now that’s an own goal if I ever saw one!

    It’s not Israel that keeps refugees piled up in camps: didn’t you know?. And the practice is certainly pathetic and immoral.

    • The treatment of refugees by their Arab host states is disgraceful by any metric.

      But let’s not forget that they are there because the rogue expansionist regime in Israel is denying them their legal rights.

      • Odd how Israel integrates Sephardi Jewish refugees, Jews from despotic Arab regimes better

        than Lebanan, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Yemen treats Arab refugees from Israel.

        And if Sephadi Jews were to return to Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Yemen, how long would they survive the “welcoming” mob?

  13. I see that dubitante is back again. His posts seem to be all his own so far on this thread, unlike the dishonest one he lifted from another CiF poster and published without attribution here previously.

    dubbie, do you really think that all Palestinians are one homogeneous mass? Do you think that all the Israeli Arabs would rush to go back to “Palestine” if Abbas declares statehood and the state manages to scrape together some sort of modus vivendi? Somehow I doubt it. The following is an interesting take on your favourite buzz word and some advice from Sarah Elshazly, an Israeli Arab woman who, unlike you and your mates, had first-hand experience of Palestinian lunacy at the time of the declaration of Israeli statehood.

    Among what she wrote is this (this was posted by FaintingGoat to CiF – you see, unlike you I do attribute my quotes):

    Among what she wrote is:

    “..What angers me the most about this is the stories that I heard as child from those ones who stayed behind. Palestinians who fled their homes and lost their families and children and most of all their dignity are angry, bitter and distraught. No one can blame them. They seem to have been taught who they are supposed to hate, who is the guilty party and who should be punished for their problems. Peoples’ memories are so short . It is easier to have a focused on one enemy- especially an enemy who does not belong to the same “tribe”, than to analyze a situation such as the Palestinian refugees disaster.

    “The question is, why did Arabs living in what became Israel flee? The ones who remained in their homes actually live and prosper. So why didn’t they stay. There is the one focused obvious enemy, Israel. But is that the truth? It is not my place or my purpose to discuss who belongs in that tiny region called Israel, but it is my intent and reason for risking shunning by my own community to set the record straight. The Arab world warned the Palestinians of staying with the Jews. They also warned them that they were going in to fight the Zionists and that the Palestinians should leave in order for them not to get hurt. Many Palestinians trusted these Arab leaders and left. Bad blood had existed between some groups of Arabs and Jews- enough to flame the Propaganda machines. Those who lived with Jews for a long time, were not as easily convinced and stayed home. My family members have always told us that there were cars going around telling people to stay put. The cars contained Jews. They told everyone that they will not harm them. Thus we have the situation where Jews are begging Arabs to stay and live with them and other Arabs from outside the country were telling them to flee for their lives.

    “Palestinians have gotten the short end of the stick in the Arab society. They are kept in poverty and turmoil because it suits the leadership of the Arab world to keep them in this position. What better way to do it than to take away every last means of dignity and power, shift the attention of the average Arab towards the perfect target- Jews….

    “I am not writing this to say merely to say that the Arab world had not done enough or done nothing nor am I suggesting that they do anything now. I am merely pointing out the truth and basically, as a Palestinian, I would like to ask the entire world to stop exploiting our issue. If you want a do a good deed find your own. To the singers who are romanticizing the Palestinian suffering, it is not romantic. There is nothing dreamy about it. There is no heroism in a small child throwing rocks at a tank. Either warn the child to stay away or Please shut up! How dare you do this to our children? Our suffering gives you good video materials and a good rating? Not to mention fame and the good old all mighty Dollar?

    “To the average citizen in the Arab world, stop crying crocodile tears for us. We don’t need you to talk about the “poor Palestinians” or to protest. We thank you for your kind feelings, but please, leave us alone. We do not want to be the object of your pity. To the Arab and Islamic Governments, fix your own problems. Do not use our misery to blind your subjects to what is really wrong with your countries. What are you afraid of? If the people wise up and stop hating Israel they’re going to turn on you? Maybe, I mean, when you condone so much hate you will pay the price. You’ve created monsters and you won’t be able to handle them. Worry about creating jobs for your own poor people and educating the children and leave us alone. In short to all those who are driving our children to die, please, stay away from us.” (emphases added)

    Do, please, try to take all this in and take note of her advice to misguided people like you who hinder Palestinian interests more than they help and, in your case, know far too little to be able to be of help.

    • “I see that dubitante is back again. His posts seem to be all his own so far on this thread, unlike the dishonest one he lifted from another CiF poster and published without attribution here previously.”

      Before I dignify you with a response, please substantiate your claim.

      • The failure to accept the fact on the ground – the properly constituted State of Israel – is a moral failure. When you have managed to get over that you will have to deal with the real cause of this conflict which is rooted in a primitive race hatred towards the Jews, mainly from muslims.

        You are no doubt delighted by the encouragement and support you receive from the anti-semites among the kuffur worldwide, but they don’t have to suffer the humiliation that is heaped upon the umma by its failure to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews.

        And don’t be fooled into thinking that the racists bigots in the West who support your plans for the ME are in any kind of majority.

      • Do you honestly believe, dubitante, that I want to be “dignified” with a response from one such as you who probably never had an original idea in your life?

        I hope, however, that you take on board what Sarah Elshazly said. Shouldn’t you and your fellow bottom feeders do as she pleads and leave the Palestinians alone?

        “..I am merely pointing out the truth and basically, as a Palestinian, I would like to ask the entire world to stop exploiting our issue. If you want a do a good deed find your own. To the singers who are romanticizing the Palestinian suffering, it is not romantic. There is nothing dreamy about it…”

        Did you hear her? You and your muddle-headed chums are making things much, much worse for them! Your misguided attentions are encouraging Hamas to make sure that more and more Palestinians get killed so that the Palestinian statehood question can be kept in the public eye. Leave them alone!

  14. “Keeping refugees piled up in camps to protect Israel’s Jewish character is a pathetic and immoral argument.”

    Oh boy. You probably don’t know anything about the unique status Palestinian refugees have in this world and the UNWRA and all that jazz, do you, dubitante?

  15. Snoopy the Goon, greetings!

    Dubitante indubitably knows nothing about the region’s politics or history.
    He also has no integrity, passing over his fatal error and thinking that ignoring it prevents others from seeing what an ignoramus he is.

  16. Folks, I advise you not to waste your time on someone who thinks Jewish nationhood is a 19th-century invention. What we have here with the parroters of Shlomo Sand’s lies is a historiographical scandal much worse than Holocaust Denial.

      • Happy dubious Nakba!

        May all your plans turn into Nakbas!

        If armed Jews makes your blood boil, think of how warm you’ll be in the winter.

      • You come across as being very ill-at-ease about your ill-founded beliefs, dubi, and you keep pitching up here.

        Where might that lead do you think?

        Extremes like this, if they don’t blow your mind, might make even you into a more informed person. Who knows?

  17. gurvitz saw the light at 17????

    what a doofus

    for a long time, i believed that every jew was capable of doing teshuva…i do not believe that now

    gurvitz, dickie, dana, blumenthal, etc…are too far gone

    • Come come Walt,
      Do you equaly believe that every Jew is capable of She’ela?

      As for Gurvitz et al, let that be a lesson to you kids about the dangers of drug abuse (As if Amy Winehouse wasn’t enough).

  18. Eammon McDonagh ran a first class series of posts fisking Gurwitz’s “Jews and Judaism are the cause of anti-semitism” ideology here, here and here.

    In the last post, Eammon quoted the following extract from this Yossi Gurwitz post on 972.com:


    When Israel commits acts that are inexcusable – like shooting children while they are standing outside their school (e.g., Abir Aramin), or shooting blindfolded, manacled prisoners in the foot, or dragging 14 year-olds out their beds in the pre-dawn hours and jailing them without charge for months, those acts arouse anti-Semitic sentiment amongst people who are pre-disposed to anti-Semitism. This does not justify anti-Semitism. It does not explain anti-Semitism. It is simply an observation. Nor does it detract from the gravity of Israeli policy and actions – which, I believe, *must* be acknowledged.

    and then he quoted my own commentary on it, which was:

    The first paragraph lists a series of actions which are characterized as being done as the direct intention of the Israeli state. All are presented as self-evidently true and done on an apparently totally arbitrary basis. Each one listed, as far as I can tell, is in gross breach of Israeli laws or rules of engagement. It is typical of anti-semitic calumnies that they characterize illegal actions by individual Jews as acts committed by and on behalf of the Jewish people as a whole.

    Remarking then that “those acts arouse anti-Semitic sentiment amongst people who are pre-disposed to anti-Semitism. and that’s a simple statement of fact” is, firstly a blatant misrepresentation of the Gurvitz line, which is that Israel causes anti-semitism, tout court. Secondly, it’s the equivalent of David Irving justifying the anti-semitism of anti-semites all over the world because he argues that people generally are pre-disposed to anti-semitism.

    Calling the phenomenon of racism irrationally being built on irrational ascription of individual evil acts to a whole nation as “a simple statement of fact” seems to me to imply a complacency and moral indifference about anti-semitism in response to any act committed by individual Israelis in uniform or resident on the West Bank. It is in vivid contrast to the outraged denunciations which are made by both of these writers [ie Yossi Gurwitz & Lisa Goldman] against those individual or small groups of Israelis who spray racist graffiti or commit racist acts against members of groups associated with attempts to destroy their country and culture.

    Anyone who doubts that Yossi Gurwitz’ take on Judaism and on religious Jews is best characterized as “pathological hatred” should take a look at this post, this post and, in particular, this post by him on the murder of the Fogel family in Itamar on 972.com

    • Judy, I read most of that post on the Fogel murders and again this individual would do neo-Nazis proud. He mentions Begin talking about “two-legged beasts”, When Begin used that phrase he was referring to PLO terrorists (Ashafistim) crossing the border from Lebanon to murder Israeli civilians. It’s neo-Nazis, the worst Muslims and their familiars who have “popularised” the phrase as another lying way to attack Jews,

      The whole thing is riddled with an absolutely repugnant immoral equivalence. What a foul universe of hatred this Gurwitz inhabits. Having been decimated by King Hussein when they claimed Jordan as Palestine the PLO fled to Lebanon and claimed it as Palestine, vastly to Lebanon’s detriment.

      Is there anything Gurwitz doesn’t blame on Jews?

  19. http://ygurvitz.net/?p=180

    seems that the above piece has gotten gurvitz into hot water with his non israeli hate israel and the jooos pals

    oh, and if gurvitz is an athiest and believes that the torah if a myth, and jews dont exist…then he is a colonialist and needs to move out of israel as soon as possible…for he is indeed stealing the land that he lives on

  20. Judy, I wonder about his relationship with his father, castration anxiety and the unresolved Oedipal rage which shows itself in rejecting the Judaism which represents and was important to his father. The following is particularly revealing and show his personality disposition – in that he has poor impulse control, doesn’t learn from experience, is probably narcissistically disordered with delusions of omnipotence and believes that he is entitled to far more respect than he deserves or is ever likely to get and, when he doesn’t get it, resorts to furious hatred which he refuses to let go of:

    “…..The last two years were awful. I could never keep my mouth shut, and as a result got into fights – physical ones – with other students…

    Pathological hatred” is a good enough descriptor for me and in many ways his online behaviour reminds me of the deeply disturbed and certainly as twisted and hate-filled Tony Greenstein, also brought up Orthodox Jewish, and also pathologically conflicted.

    I am still teased as to why either of them remain Jewish, though. Perhaps part of their narcissistic feelings of omnipotence is that they “choose” to remain Jews so as to teach other Jews how to behave and/or punish Jews for having failed them by according them the importance they believe they deserve. Such people hold on to grudges for a lifetime.

    I wish the Batei Din would reintroduce cherem for such poisonous, half-constructed human beings. Then at least they could no longer refer to themselves as Jews

    • Mitnaged, I do see the similarity between Gurwitz and Tony Greenstein, especially the grotesque degree of delusion of omnipotence and the fury of the rages.

      As for why they remain Jewish, well for me, it seems to be a variant of the Jesus/Messiah theme, which includes constant attempts to divest themselves of their self hatred by holding themselves out to the non-Jewish world as the good Jews– deriving at root from aggressively stripping themselves of and reviling Judaism, and without the least tinge of irony offering themselves and their own ideas as to what the post-Jew (they sometimes refer to themselves as “Hebrews” in Israel) should be.

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