Geoffrey Alderman’s essay in The JC, This was no peace activist, which opined that the death of Vittorio Arrigoni, the extremist anti-Israel activist, caused him pleasure influenced at least one Guardian “journalist” to berate JC editor, Stephen Pollard, over the insensitivity of publishing such a “disgusting ” attack.
While I personally would not have used the language Alderman did, those who would lionize Arrigoni, as many have, as anything approaching a “progressive”, a “liberal”, or someone who sought “peace and reconciliation” is simply beyond absurd, easily refuted by the briefest research into his life, and are engaged in an egregious moral inversion – one employed constantly by the anti-Israel left.
As we have noted previously:
Arrigoni was a supporter of Hamas, and a member of International Solidarity Movement, a group who has supported violent “resistance” and has forged links with known terrorist movements – such as their involvement with the group responsible for the terror attack in 2003 at Mike’s Place bar in Tel Aviv, murdering three people.
Arrigoni posted anti-Semitic images on his Facebook account which included a cartoon depiction of Israelis murdering Santa Claus and one, recalling classic anti-Semitic tropes, showing soldiers of the Jewish state arresting Jesus Christ. He also approvingly posted a sign in an Egyptian shop which read, “No Dogs or Israelis Allowed.”
In short, Arrigoni was a bigot. And, merely because he claimed the mantle of “pro-Palestinian” doesn’t grant him immunity from his exceedingly reactionary record of expressing palpable animosity towards Jews and Israel.
Yes, I believe that Arrigoni’s murder at the hands of terrorists – members of Jama’at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad (JTJ), an al-Qaida affiliate, in April - in Gaza was horrific, but it is worth noting that Harriet Sherwood, so outraged by Alderman’s remarks about Arrigoni, never found the time to direct such righteous moral outrage, anywhere at all in her blog or column in the month since his death, at the vile radical Islamist perpetrators of this ghastly crime – a selective outrage which continues to define the politics of the Guardian Left.
Geoffrey Alderman was right and courageous to say that Vittorio Arrigoni was nothing even approaching a “peace activist”, and thus I’ll continue to defend him, without qualification, from the sanctimonious and supremely hypocritical assaults leveled by Harriet Sherwood and her anti-Zionist political fellow travelers.






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May 19, 2011 at 9:05 am
HairShirt
I really wish that you hadn’t entitled this a “defence” of Geoffrey Alderman who spoke as he found and whose points of view and arguments are as valid as any of the hate-filled rubbish at the other place.
Arrigoni was filled with Jew-hatred and, in my opinion, got what he deserved. He probably danced for joy and handed out candies whenever his Hamas buddies murdered Israeli Jews. I hope he is roasting in hell alongside the other Hamasniks he so admired. When we live in an age where any Muslim can freely refer to Jews as microbes or cancers which should be wiped out, and doubtless be cheered for that by the neanderthals above and below the line at CiF, why should Geoffrey Alderman need to be “defended”?
For the record, I agree with every word Alderman wrote.
May 19, 2011 at 9:08 am
OyVaGoy
‘He also approvingly posted a sign in an Egyptian shop which read, “No Dogs or Israelis Allowed.”’
Has anyone resolved the question of whether he posted it approvingly or not? I’ve heard suggestions that the accompanying text from him on Facebook was disapproving.
I’ve no idea whether that is the case or not. Nice article anyway Adam.
May 19, 2011 at 9:15 am
HairShirt
Does it matter? The fact that it was posted at all says enough.
May 19, 2011 at 3:56 pm
Adam Levick
Hi Chas, I saw the context and believe he was posting it approvingly. But, you can see for yourself – here’s a link to our piece which showed how it was displayed on his fb page.
http://cifwatch.com/2011/04/17/the-murder-of-vittorio-arrigoni-and-the-morality-of-resistance/
As always, thanks.
May 19, 2011 at 9:13 am
HairShirt
PS: I think that “bigot” is far too kind a description of Arrigoni. It makes him sound almost civilised and thoughtful. He behaved like a knee-jerk Jew hater and his death was no more horrific than that visited on Daniel Pearl or Fatah “traitors” by the Islamists.
May 19, 2011 at 9:36 am
Ariadne
Time for the Cavalier Ballad again!
Cavalier Ballad
Here’s a health unto his Majesty,
With a fal la la la la la la,
Confusion to his enemies,
With a fal lal la la la la la la.
And he that will not drink his health,
I wish him neither wit nor wealth,
Nor but a rope to hang himself.
With a fal lal la la la la la la la la,
With a fal lal la la la la la.
Not entirely parallel but demonstrating a nice, healthy, life-oriented attitude.
May 19, 2011 at 9:54 am
MindTheCrap
Why do you feel the need to “defend” Alderman if you “personally would not have used the language Alderman did” ? Your argument against Sherwood becomes much stronger if you condemn Alderman outright; now you are potentially exposing yourself to the same charges of hypocrisy.
May 19, 2011 at 10:00 am
Zkharya
‘Has anyone resolved the question of whether he posted it approvingly or not? I’ve heard suggestions that the accompanying text from him on Facebook was disapproving.’
Absolutely it was approving. He doesn’t criticise it at all.
He says below that ‘There were just some Israeli tourists denouncing…the signs’ i.e. no one else did: “A denunciare la presenza di questi cartelli sono stati proprio alcuni turisti israeliani”
(the google translation is “To denounce the presence of these signs were just some Israeli tourists”, which is more literal, but still passable English)
Then he used it to head his Facebook page.
Of course he approved of it. Some CIFer says spuriously that ‘proprio’ means ‘actually’. While it can mean ‘really’ = davvero, that makes no sense here, and its primary adverbial meaning is ‘just’ (as an adjective it chiefly means ‘own’, and the adverb from ‘own’ is, technically, ‘only’ (= ‘ownly’):
['Vietato l'ingresso a cani e israeliani'
by Vittorio Arrigoni on Sunday, 14 March 2010 at 19:22
Sarò eccessivo,
ma se i palestinesi non possono uscire,
perchè agli israeliani deve essere concesso entrare???]
‘No entry to dogs and Israelis’
I may be excessive, but if Palestinians cannot leave,
why should Israelis be allowed to enter??
[Amman, 12 mar. - (Adnkronos/Aki) - "Spiacenti, ma l'ingresso non è consentito a cani e israeliani". E' questo il messaggio che è possibile trovare su un manifesto appeso all'ingresso di numerosi negozi di Petra, città turistica della Giordania.]
Amman, March 12 – “Sorry, but entry is not permitted to dogs and Israelis.” This is the message that can be found on a poster hung at the entrance to several shops in Petra, tourist city of Jordan.
[Secondo quanto riferisce il sito palestinese 'Dunia al-Watan', che pubblica anche una foto del manifestino anti-israeliano, il messaggio è stato scritto in lingua inglese e posto all'ingresso di numerosi esercizi commerciali normalmente frequentati da turisti stranieri, tra cui anche israeliani, che si recano a Petra per visitare il suo sito archeologico rinomato in tutto il mondo.]
As reported by the Palestinian website ‘Dunia al-Watan’, which also publishes a photo of the anti-Israeli poster, the message was written in English and set at the entrance of many businesses, usually frequented by foreign tourists, including Israelis, who travel to Petra to visit its archaeological site, famed throughout the world.
[A denunciare la presenza di questi cartelli sono stati proprio alcuni turisti israeliani che sono rimasti sorpresi nel leggere un simile messaggio. Nel volantino, fotocopiato in bianco e nero, appare anche la foto di una donna palestinese che viene attaccata al braccio da un cane al fianco di un soldato israeliano.]
There were just some Israeli tourists denouncing the presence of these signs, who were surprised to read a message like this. In the flyer, photocopied in black and white, a photo of a Palestinian woman also appears, who was attacked on her arm by a dog, at the side of an Israeli soldier.
[Una seconda foto, invece, mostra un militare dello Stato ebraico che aggredisce una donna palestinese. Manifesti di questo genere sarebbero stati stampati a partire dalla fine dell'operazione militare israeliana 'Piombo fuso' lanciata su Gaza a fine dicembre 2008 e terminata il 18 gennaio 2009.]
Conversely, a second photo shows a soldier of the Jewish state assaulting a Palestinian woman. Posters of this kind would have been printed since the recent Israeli military operation ‘Cast Lead’, in Gaza, launched at the end of December 2008 and concluded by January 18, 2009.
May 19, 2011 at 10:01 am
Zkharya
I still think Alderman went too far to express pleasure at Arrigoni’s murder.
May 19, 2011 at 10:03 am
Zkharya
‘Your argument against Sherwood becomes much stronger if you condemn Alderman outright’
Well, if one condemns his expressing taking pleasure in Arrigoni’s death or murder, yes. I don’t know about ‘outright’.
May 19, 2011 at 10:19 am
Zkharya
I say that with regret about Alderman, for whom, as a staple JC opinion writer, I have a genuine affection. But he went too far, which is a great shame, since Arrigoni’s views, and reception, are eminently worthy of criticism.
May 19, 2011 at 10:20 am
Rural
There is a sweetest of ironies in the fact that this anti-Semite bigot was killed by the very bigots that he would have died for to defend.
Take note, islamofacist loving progressives everywhere: those who nurse a viper…
May 19, 2011 at 10:23 am
MindTheCrap
It is a verse in the 24th chapter of Mishlei. “In the falling (death) of your enemy – do not rejoice.”
From a Torah perspective the question arises: the enemy is dead. How exuberant should we be?
The Meshech Chochma (Shmos 12:16) writes that upright individuals do not rejoice at the death of others as do, say, some of the other nations. This seems to be across the board. Thus, on Passover, we celebrate the freedom of the Jewish people and not the fact that G-d punished the Egyptians. Similarly, on Chanukah, we celebrate the miracle of the oil lasting and not the fall of the Syrian Greeks.
The Gerrer Rebbe on Sukkos 5658 also expressed this thought. He explained that even though Yom Tov’s must all have Simcha, the word is used only regarding Sukkos and not Pesach. Why? The death of the Egyptians that occurred on Pesach caused the use of the word “Simcha” in regard to Pesach as not appropriate.
The Yalkut Shimoni (Mishlei 960) also points out that we do not recite a full Hallel on Pesach except for the first day because of the notion of not overly rejoicing over the deaths of enemies.
etc.
May 19, 2011 at 10:33 am
MindTheCrap
the Babylonian Talmud we discover a midrash:
“When the Egyptians were drowning in the Sea of Reeds, the angels wanted to sing. God said to them, ‘The work of My hands is drowning in the sea, and you want to sing?’” (Sanh 39b)
May 19, 2011 at 2:53 pm
walt kovacs
nothing worse then jew hating bastards attempting to teach jews about their own religion
go away
May 19, 2011 at 10:52 am
Geoffrey Alderman
“MindTheCrap” needs to remind himself (or herself) of the words of Psalm 79, recited during the Pesach Seder: “Pour out Thy wrath upon the nations that know Thee not, and upon kingdoms that did not call upon Thy name. For they have consumed Jacob, and laid waste his habitation. Pour out Thy rage upon them, and let Thy fury overtake them. Pursue them in anger and destroy them, from under the heavens of the LORD.” On Pesach (in other words), we most certainly do celebrate the fact that G-d punished the Egyptians.
May 19, 2011 at 11:36 am
Sanity
Nice to see religious extremism alive and well on CiF Watch!
May 19, 2011 at 12:14 pm
Snigger
Well, you should know, Sanity, being a denizen of the CiF gutter
May 19, 2011 at 5:28 pm
SerJew
Nice to see religious extremism alive and well on CiF Watch!
So, why don´t you move away? Tell us why you love to keep posting inanities
in a blog you classified as a “pigsty”?
I bet there are two reasons: you need attention and you need even more attention.
May 19, 2011 at 12:18 pm
Snigger
Hear hear!
May 19, 2011 at 11:12 am
SerJew
Yeah, we should all be very sad for the death of that moron Riggatoni and also to each and every Hamas operative, and Somali pirates, and Hezbullah
gangsters, and Al Qaida nihilists, and poor Eichman, Heydrich, Himmler, Borman, Gôering, Yamamoto, and let´s not forget all those decent but misguided staff of the RSHA and all those hard-working Einsatzgruppen fellows plus the dedicated Gestapo personnel. Ah, and don´t forget to pray for the soul of those misunderstood people all over europe that were forced to shoot Jews at point-blank, men, women and children that were in fact potential communist-plutocrats partisans.
The list is endless…lots of prayers will be necessary.
May 19, 2011 at 11:31 am
Jimbo
I’d be lying if I said I was dreadfully upset at A.’s death. As Alderman intimates, it’s hard to mourn the death of an enemy. But I think he went to Gaza on a treenage adventure holiday, and suddenly it all got a bit too real.
Going through his final days and hours, confined, turned on by some of those whom he had come to help, is beyond imagination, really.
There are rumours he was murdered partly for being gay. And it may have been convenient for Hamas that a gay man who had physically embraced Haniyeh, not only his Gazan lover, was killed by an enemy group. He is both a pro-Hamas foreign martyr, and out of the picture.
“I asked gay palestinian blogger Nizo whether he had heard anything about Arrigoni being killed for being gay. This is what Nizo had to say:
I did hear about Arrigoni being gay. That said, like you, I can’t find proof that he was killed for that reason. I think IJ just wanted to tarnish Hamas’ name by projecting the image that Gaza is out of control. If they were really after him for his sexual orientation then they could have found a way to shame him by providing video proof of him as a homosexual or killing him and his alleged boyfriend while they’re in the act.
In any case, a quick google arabic search led me to the following comment by an Arab in Saudi Arabia irked by the attention, my translation in English, followed by original text:
This kaffir (infidel) is a martyr now?
First of all, this person isn’t a muslim
Second of all, it is known that this person is a homosexual
Third of all, it is despicable how Haniyeh aggrandized this homosexual person as protection for (Hamas) ministerial posts and the funds derived from taxation. Why not make this Vittorio a Caliph?
Where are Hamas’ condemnations for their own killings of the sons of the Tamima mosque, or the sons of the Hilis, Kawareh, Dughmush clans. Are all of these infidels while this guy is a Muslim?
“حسبي الله ونعم الوكيل صار شهيد هال كافر
اولا هالشخص غير مسلم
ثانيا هالشخص لوطي ومعروف عنو هالشي
ثالثا الحقاره الي قام بها اتباع هنية من تفخيم لشخص هاللوطي حماية لكراسي الوزاره وأموال الضرايب شوي ويعملو خليفه هالفيكتور
طب وين تنديدات حركة نجاس على قتلهم لأبناء مسجد ابن تيميه أين تنديداتهم بقتل ابناء حلس او ابناء كوارع او ابناء دغمش ولا هادول كفار وهاد مسلم ,,اللهم اجمع كل من يحبه معه يوم الحشر امين يارب العباد”
http://www.israellycool.com/2011/04/20/was-vittorio-arrigoni-murdered-because-he-was-gay/
Was Sherwood’s saying Arrigoni was murdered by Hamas a Freudian slip?
May 19, 2011 at 12:04 pm
Ariadne
That Saudi Arabian didn’t seem to grieve!
What will “Sanity” say?
May 19, 2011 at 12:24 pm
ziontruth
If he follows standard Marxist procedure, he’ll say he doesn’t expect a Saudi to express sadness and in contrast he holds Jews to a much higher criterion. In other words, the soft bigotry of low expectations, and a call for the merciful to be merciful to be cruel so the cruel could be cruel to the merciful.
I sometimes fear I’ve followed the rule of “Know Thy Enemy” a bit too much…
May 19, 2011 at 12:51 pm
Ariadne
I don’t think you have.
That Saudi has worked money into his condemnation which I think says a lot of what else “Palestine” is about.
May 19, 2011 at 11:46 am
JerusalemMite
I think that Geoffrey Alderman’s essay in The JC used a bad choice of expression/words.
He should know better.
On the positive side, we can say that at least he is not a hypocrite.
But that’s all.
May 19, 2011 at 11:53 am
Rural
Man, those are chilling words, what Mr Alderman has just quoted. Are you sure those are the Lord’s words? Look I don’t want to go religious all of a sudden, but aren’t similar scary verses in koran, and we rightfully abhor those, yes?
May 19, 2011 at 11:57 am
Sanity
Completely. We tend to think of Islamist extremists as being pure evil. But in fact, Jewish extremists, Christian extremists, Hindu extremists, etc. are all as bad as each other. Fight religious extremism.
Unfortunately, this site appears to be run by religious extremists.
May 19, 2011 at 12:05 pm
Thank God I'm An Infidel
Insanity, When did Buddhist/Christian/Hindu/Jewish extremists -
- hijack planes and fly them into office buildings?
- place bombs in commercial airliners and have them detonate mid-air?
- issue video tapes of the beheading of bound captives?
- dynamite two 1,500 year old Buddhist statues?
It ain’t the BCHU extremists, but rather your islamofascist “militants” who have ZERO respect for human life.
May 19, 2011 at 12:06 pm
ziontruth
How much of the daily news is about the depredations of Islam, and how much by other religions? Where are the Jewish, Christian, Hindu etc. suicide-murderers? How many of the disputes attributed to Jewish, Christian etc. extremists are highly localized (e.g. even if you view Hindutva as a problem–which I don’t–it’s local to India), vs. how many of the Islamic “grievances”?
None so blind as those who won’t see.
May 19, 2011 at 12:41 pm
Serendipity
Why are so many here behaving like the proverbial Duchess in the abattoir? Could the reservations about jumping for joy that this wretch was murdered by the murderers he supported so wholeheartedly be because they fear that this might be the thin end of the wedge, and that they might become as twisted minded as Arrigoni was?
If there is such a thing as karma, then Arrigoni got his and as he deserved it.
@GeoffreyAlderman, you have a right to express yourself exactly as you wish within the bounds of law. Far, far worse things have been said about Jews by the mouth breathers at the Guardian and elsewhere as you know. As JerusalemMite says, at least you are no hypocrite.
Ziontruth, me too, but let’s face it these shrivelled souls need something to hate. If anti Zionism dies out then they’ll find other things to hate about Jews and Israel.
Jimbo, are you really trying to have us believe that Arrigoni was too naive to realise what his hatred could result in? I doubt that many normal teenagers believe that living among Islamist terrorists is their idea of an adventure.
May 19, 2011 at 12:47 pm
ziontruth
“If anti Zionism dies out then they’ll find other things to hate about Jews and Israel.”
You’re right, I somehow forgot. Anti-Zionism is the banner under which Jew-hatred most often comes today*, but it’s Jew-hatred (a.k.a. anti-Semitism, to use terminology inherited from the 19th century) that we want gone, not just one of the forms it comes in.
*Anti-Zionism would be illegitimate even if there were no instance of it being used as a cover for Jew-hatred. As Zionism is Jewish nationalism, anti-Zionism is as illegitimate as anti-Hellenism would be, the denial of the right of the Greek nation to political sovereignty over their indigenous territory of Hellas. Jews are to the Land of Israel as Greeks are to Hellas, and Arabs (even when falsely called “Palestinians”) are equivalent to Turks.
May 19, 2011 at 1:16 pm
Jimbo
‘Unfortunately, this site appears to be run by religious extremists.’
Some religious extremists are easier to fight than others. Some don’t behead you for it. Or for your being gay.
May 20, 2011 at 7:35 am
lorenzo
They just bomb you
May 20, 2011 at 7:50 am
Sanity
And some religious extremists buy expensive and powerful weapons from the United States, and use them to murder, maim and oppress.
May 19, 2011 at 1:51 pm
Snigger
OK Sanity, thanks for giving me the opportunity to spell this out:
Do Jewish or Christian extremists, or Hindu extremists give up their children so easily to be schooled in hatred as do these “poor Palestinians?”
How many Jewish, Christian or Hindu extremists are professionally homeless because they don’t want what has been offered in good faith, preferring rather to murder in order to get all of what they think is theirs?
When was the last time any of them groomed a suicide bomber to do his/her evil act (Links please);
When was there a murder by Christian or Jewish extremists which resulted in dancing in the streets?
Answers please!
May 19, 2011 at 4:32 pm
pretzelberg
Unfortunately, this site appears to be run by religious extremists.
It isn’t. But it seems to have been hijacked by a bunch of political extremists.
May 19, 2011 at 5:32 pm
SerJew
And, maybe worst of all, left-wing extremists, of which you are a low level militant, class useful idiot.
May 19, 2011 at 7:39 pm
Jimbo
‘useful idiot’
At least that’s better than you: a useless idiot.
May 19, 2011 at 9:31 pm
SerJew
“At least that’s better than you: a useless idiot.” Jimbonobo
But nothing surpasses yourself: the quintessential postmodern prig.
May 19, 2011 at 11:54 am
ziontruth
I do not rejoice over the death of Arrigoni, for he is no more than just one anti-Zionist; as inconsequential as the killing of Osama Bin Laden is for the prospect of the cessation of Islamic imperialism. Of course, I am not upset over it either, and there is a certain grim satisfaction in noting how he found his end not at the hands of those he vilified, the Jews, but of those he supported and counted as his friends and allies.
I will rejoice, nay, hold a great feast, together with all sane Jews (and freedom-loving non-Jews will also be welcome), when anti-Zionism is gone from the world (soon, amen!). People are less the issue than the ideologies that drives them. Await the fall of anti-Zionism, Marxism and Islam and rejoice when it comes.
May 19, 2011 at 1:19 pm
Jimbo
‘Await the fall of anti-Zionism, Marxism and Islam and rejoice when it comes.’
That is a bit nutty, especially wrt Islam. The fall of Islam? What does that even mean?
Do you also await the fall of Christianity or Judaism?
May 19, 2011 at 1:37 pm
ziontruth
Islam is a religion but not just a religion. It comes with a political program that has you and me living under shariah law as its goal. Were it not for that political program, I’d brush Islam off as yet another competitor on the marketplace of ideas; because of its political ideology, Islam can’t be treated that way.
May 19, 2011 at 2:20 pm
Jimbo
‘Islam is a religion but not just a religion.’
Judaism is also a religion, but not just a religion, since Jewish identity also has an ethno-national aspect.
May 19, 2011 at 2:38 pm
ziontruth
“Judaism is also a religion, but not just a religion, since Jewish identity also has an ethno-national aspect.”
Agreed. But since, as I said below, it applies only to one nation and its laws only in one state, in contrast to the global nature of Islam, it ought not to be any concern of non-Jews.
Unless, of course, they do everything in their power to make it so, like the appeasers of Islam on Israel’s expense with their mantra “The road to peace runs through Jerusalem.” But that’s a bed of one’s own making. Judaism keeps to itself; the same isn’t true for Islam, no matter how hard you try to localize it.
May 19, 2011 at 5:12 pm
Jimbo
‘Agreed. But since, as I said below, it applies only to one nation and its laws only in one state, in contrast to the global nature of Islam, it ought not to be any concern of non-Jews.’
That is a simplistic view of Islam. Most Muslims are only concerned with sovereignty in Islamic countries and states. Yes, there is an evangelical aspect but it is important not to over-stress its impact in the west, or its violence, which is hardly any.
Some western Muslims evangelise like some Christians.
May 19, 2011 at 5:28 pm
ziontruth
“That is a simplistic view of Islam. Most Muslims are only concerned with sovereignty in Islamic countries and states.”
In all religions you’ll find the practitioners aren’t 100% with what the religion says. Still the religion says so and so. The canon of Islam says the world is to be brought under Islamic law. As for how many of the Muslims take that seriously, I don’t know, though a word of caution is needed that Islam is taken seriously by far greater a portion than Christianity, because the Islamic world did not undergo the equivalent of the Enlightenment. Furthermore, with 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, even 0.1% make an army-sized force.
“Yes, there is an evangelical aspect but it is important not to over-stress its impact in the west, or its violence, which is hardly any.”
Demography is the prime means by which a non-Muslim country is Islamified in our day.
May 19, 2011 at 7:37 pm
Jimbo
‘Demography is the prime means by which a non-Muslim country is Islamified in our day.’
You can’t stop people having babies. The US is the only western country where the European deriving populations are having babies.
May 19, 2011 at 4:57 pm
Ariadne
Judaism doesn’t have a murderous aspect.
May 19, 2011 at 5:15 pm
Jimbo
That doesn’t stop some Jews committing murder, or more Israeli Jews killing in contentious circumstance e.g. the OT.
I’m pro-Israeli. I supported Cast Lead. I favour committing most settlements for territory in exchange. But I also know there is a problem, that even having to kill one’s enemies wears at one’s soul.
And some Israeli Jews, not many, but too many, would commit murder in the name of religion.
Judaism has its extremists too.
May 19, 2011 at 6:40 pm
Ariadne
With respect, that’s rather trite. Every society has its murderers. And while I would never equate Ireland – either Eire or NI – with Israel. Yeats said it better: “Too long a sacrifice/Can make a stone of the heart”.
It isn’t the fault of Jews that people come to kill them and that is what has happened forever. Arabs have really earned a lot of contempt.
Think about Israel’s forbearance. I do. An ex-IDF friend of mine said of Cast Lead “Israel should have finished them off”. And who can blame him. He is likely to see his grandchildren in the IDF in some years time.
You must know the saying “If the Arabs laid down their arms there would be no more violence. If the Jews laid down their arms there would be no more Israel.
May 19, 2011 at 7:33 pm
Jimbo
‘With respect, that’s rather trite. Every society has its murderers.’
Including Jewish society, members who think they are propelled by Judaism.
Which was precisely what you were disputing.
May 19, 2011 at 9:35 pm
SerJew
“Which was precisely what you were disputing.” jimBS
No, people are disputing your ridiculous platitudes.
May 19, 2011 at 11:58 am
Sanity
‘Await the fall of … Islam and rejoice when it comes’
More racism here at Cif Watch!
May 19, 2011 at 12:01 pm
ziontruth
Islam is not a race.
Lefty rhetorical sleight-of-hand fail.
May 19, 2011 at 1:22 pm
Sanity
So what would be your reaction to: ‘Judaism is not a race’?
That’s what I thought.
May 19, 2011 at 2:11 pm
ziontruth
Judaism is a religion. Although like Islam it comes with a political program, unlike Islam this program does not involve any other people than the Jews, and does not extend to any place in the world outside the Land of Israel.
As for being a Jew… that’s not a race either. “Jew” is an ethnicity with irracial criteria. A Jew is either whoever has a Jewish mother or someone who has undergone halachic conversion. Because of the second criterion, race doesn’t figure into being a Jew–people of any race can become Jews if they truly want it.
So Jew-hatred isn’t strictly a form of racism (though the Nazis with their theorizing tried to make it so), but I still want it stamped out, for the same reason, say, a Hollander wouldn’t be tolerant of anti-Dutch sentiment. The reason is, simply, that I stand for my national interests. No more, no less.
May 19, 2011 at 1:23 pm
Jimbo
‘Islam is not a race.’
But prejudice against Muslims is still a form of racism, as you are treating them as a de facto race.
Some would say Judaism is not a race, per se, but that anti-Judaism or anti-Jewishness qua Judaism/religion is still a form of racism.
You hatred of ‘lefties’ is idiotic: it was the lefties of the French Revolution that first granted Jews citizenship of the state without having first to convert. Without lefties there was no Emancipation.
May 19, 2011 at 1:35 pm
ziontruth
“But prejudice against Muslims is still a form of racism, as you are treating them as a de facto race.”
Please. This isn’t the Mental Olympics. An essential component of racism is that it’s immutable–blacks can’t be anything but blacks, so someone who hates blacks will always hate them. Islam isn’t immutable, though the Muslims try to make it almost so by murdering all apostates.
“You hatred of ‘lefties’ is idiotic: it was the lefties of the French Revolution…”
We’re not now at the time of the French Revolution. Right now in the year 2011, the Left is almost completely of the Marxist kind, the branch of the Left whose enmity toward Zionism goes all the way back to 1920. Right now the Left is at the forefront of anti-Zionism, which wishes to rob the Jewish nation of their one and only rightful plot of land in the world.
If you’re one of the older, pre-1960s left-wingers then my remarks don’t apply to you; but even if so, you’re the minority today.
May 19, 2011 at 2:11 pm
Jimbo
‘An essential component of racism is that it’s immutable’
Or categories people or groups as essentials e.g. Islam = imperialism, Muslims = imperialists.
May 19, 2011 at 2:20 pm
ziontruth
You’re performing pretzel logic again. Immutable means immutable. Imperialism is an ideological category; ideologies and ideological categories are, by nature, mutable (people can leave an ideology). Ergo, there’s no way an anti-Islamic stance could be considered racism or even quasi-racism.
“That is just spectacularly ignorant rubbish. No wonder CIFWatch has a reputation for Neanderthals among its commenters.”
If you’ve done a 50-year Rip van Winkle stint, it’s up to you to get updated once you’ve woken up.
May 19, 2011 at 2:52 pm
Jimbo
‘Immutable means immutable’
Yeah, and when you assign essences to things, you are assigning to them immutables Q.E.D.
Ignorant, daft twit.
May 19, 2011 at 3:02 pm
ziontruth
“Yeah, and when you assign essences to things, you are assigning to them immutables Q.E.D.”
Fine, give me an F on your Philosophy 101 course. Oh wait, I’m not on it–I see it says “Reality 101″ on my timetable.
“Ignorant, daft twit.”
And now I remember why I didn’t take that course: Because of the obnoxious professor.
May 19, 2011 at 9:46 pm
SerJew
“Ignorant, daft twit.” JimBS
Typical Neanderthal reply.
May 19, 2011 at 2:13 pm
Jimbo
‘the Left is almost completely of the Marxist kind’
That is just spectacularly ignorant rubbish. No wonder CIFWatch has a reputation for Neanderthals among its commenters.
May 19, 2011 at 5:03 pm
Ariadne
Too bad, Jimbo. We ♥ ziontruth and know he posts truth.
May 19, 2011 at 5:09 pm
ziontruth
Aw, thanks! But this “We” too is really you speaking for yourself, right?
Just, people who make a mistake have a tendency to warn others of it…
May 19, 2011 at 6:42 pm
Ariadne
☺
May 19, 2011 at 9:45 pm
SerJew
“CIFWatch has a reputation for Neanderthals among its commenters.” jimbone
If fits your description perfectly.
May 19, 2011 at 9:43 pm
SerJew
“You hatred of ‘lefties’ is idiotic: it was the lefties of the French Revolution that first granted Jews citizenship of the state without having first to convert. Without lefties there was no Emancipation.” jimBS
No, leftists like you are idiotic. The irresponsible lefties were intrumental in bringing Hitler to power, because for the commies, the worse, the better (as this would bring the revolution sooner), so they consistently sabotaged the social-democrats, which were a bunch of wimps that didn´t really believe in democracy (essentially a bourgeois value to them).
So lefties brought the Holocaust and piles of corpses wherever they took power (Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba).
May 19, 2011 at 12:08 pm
Thank God I'm An Infidel
Insanity, Islam is a race?
Islam does desperately need a reformation.
May 19, 2011 at 1:06 pm
Sanity
As you know, bigots like yourselves use the term ‘Islam’ to describe brown people.
May 19, 2011 at 1:11 pm
Jimbo
‘As you know, bigots like yourselves use the term ‘Islam’ to describe brown people.’
“Honni soit qui mal y pense”
As you know telling other people what they know for them is a classic example of projection.
May 19, 2011 at 1:12 pm
Jimbo
A good portion of Israeli Jews are brown, half deriving from the Arab or Islamic world.
May 19, 2011 at 3:14 pm
Sanity
Er, so Arabs are actually white. Maybe if you meet one or two of them, you might see that.
May 19, 2011 at 4:54 pm
Jimbo
Actually, for demographic purposes, most Western North Africans are classified as ‘white’, since they are scarcely different from Southern Mediterranean Europeans.
Israeli/Palestinian Arab Christian Mira Awad is famously lighter skinned than the Israeli Jewish Achinoam Nini she sings with.
‘Maybe if you meet one or two of them, you might see that.’
Hehehe. I know rather more of them than that. Probably more than you, in fact.
May 19, 2011 at 1:24 pm
ziontruth
Let me guess… when the therapists hands you sheet after sheet of the Rorschach test, you go “A racist, a racist, a racist, a racist…”
You Leftists do project. When I think “Islam,” I think “religion-based imperialist ideology that wants all of humanity under its heel.” You, on the other hand, think it’s all about “brown people.” So who’s the true racist here?
May 19, 2011 at 1:39 pm
Sanity
When I think Zionist I think ‘religion-based imperialist ideology that hates Arabs and believes it is a chosen race’. You on the other hand think it’s all about ‘Jews’. So who’s the racist here?
May 19, 2011 at 1:51 pm
ziontruth
If you think so about Zionism, then my problem with you isn’t you’re a racist or even bigot or something like that, but that your thought is simply wrong.
Zionism isn’t necessarily religion-based–in fact, the renewal of Zionism in the 19th century was led primarily by secularists.
Zionism isn’t imperialist. Imperialism consists in believing that what others rightfully possess belongs to you. Zionism holds no claim to the rightful possessions of any other nation, only to the rightful possession of the Jews, which is the Land of Israel (and which is not the rightful possession of the Arabs).
Zionism doesn’t hate Arabs as part of its ideology–it so happens that the Arabs covet what rightfully belongs to the Jews, so we hate them.
Zionism does not tout the claim of a chosen people as the basis for rightful possession of the Land of Israel–the basis of Zionism is the same basis as for any other non-imperialist nationalism. Even Judaism’s claim of a chosen people is far apart from other claims of this sort, because Judaism (contra Islam) does not hold that Jewish chosenness entitles the Jews to possession of the entire world, or of any part of the world outside the Land of Israel for that matter.
Moral equivalence fail on your part. Try harder.
May 19, 2011 at 3:27 pm
Snigger
I disagree. If I hate Arabs at all, it’s because they give up their young to violence and believe that their objectives can be achieved only by violence and are impervious to compromise.
You have no right, ziontruth, to say that “we” hate Arabs because they want Israel. You can and should speak only for yourself.
May 19, 2011 at 3:36 pm
ziontruth
My gosh. I’ve appended “Speaking only for myself…” so many times to my posts on CiFWatch that people are probably fed up of reading it. Just for once I give the disclaimer a miss and everything goes haywire, just because some sick anti-Zionist troll decided to use that post to besmirch this site’s name.
I don’t approve of Israel walking on eggshells when it comes to dealing with her enemies, therefore I can’t approve of myself walking on eggshells either. Of course I was speaking for myself. Now that I’ve made that clear, stop giving the troll the ego-stroking he craves.
May 19, 2011 at 3:57 pm
Sanity
Wow, I really would have been much more grovelling and shame-faced about my racism if I were you.
May 19, 2011 at 4:05 pm
ziontruth
I don’t get my instructions on how to think and feel from Marxist trolls. Stop trying to make me apologize–I don’t buy into your theories as to what constitutes “racism,” I’m not ashamed of what I think is healthy national survival instinct, and therefore no apology from me is forthcoming.
May 19, 2011 at 4:14 pm
Sanity
I’m a Conservative.
May 19, 2011 at 4:58 pm
Jimbo
You should be more shame-faced if you were you.
May 19, 2011 at 6:12 pm
SerJew
“I’m a Conservative” insanitary
No, you are just rudimentary.
May 21, 2011 at 1:43 pm
Snigger
ziontruth, you know that I am doing no such thing, and neither am I walking on egg shells around him. There’s no “of course” about you were speaking for yourself – I know I am very intelligent but I don’t happen to list ESP among my many qualifications.
Sanity is a grossly disturbed human being. May I suggest that we ignore his burblings henceforward?
May 19, 2011 at 1:54 pm
Snigger
You are lying again Sanity. You don’t think, do you?
May 19, 2011 at 2:15 pm
Jimbo
‘When I think Zionist I think ‘religion-based imperialist ideology that hates Arabs and believes it is a chosen race’.’
That makes you a racist in exactly the same way Ziontruth is.
As he essentialises Islam, you essentialise Zionism.
May 19, 2011 at 6:11 pm
SerJew
When did ziontruth “essentialize” (oh, those pseudo-scholarly terms are so impressive) Zionism?
I´ve only seen him saying that Zionism is the right of self-determination of the Jewish people. Do you have a problem with people´s right of self-determination? Or just with the Jewish´s people´s right?
May 19, 2011 at 9:08 pm
Jimbo
‘“essentialize” (oh, those pseudo-scholarly terms are so impressive) Zionism?’
I was talking with Sanity, idiot.
May 19, 2011 at 9:18 pm
SerJew
Really, so what? This is a public forum: if you don´t want to be seen as the arsehole you are, go talk in private with insanitary.
Oh, BTW, f*** off.
May 21, 2011 at 3:55 pm
Jimbo
No, you moron. I never said Ziontruth essentialized Zionism. I said Sanity did.
You are so filled with hate, you cannot even read the words in front of you.
May 20, 2011 at 7:04 am
Sanity
Jimbo, this was sarcastic. I was mimicking his way of arguing, and mirroring his statemement about Muslims back to him in anti-Jew form to show that it was racist. Sorry if you thought that was my actual view.
May 19, 2011 at 2:15 pm
Jimbo
‘When I think Zionist I think ‘religion-based imperialist ideology that hates Arabs and believes it is a chosen race’. ‘
Again, that is spectacularly ignorant rubbish.
You too are a racist.
May 19, 2011 at 9:20 pm
SerJew
And you are another insanity-pretzlenut “racist caller”. Grow up.
May 20, 2011 at 6:48 am
Jimbo
What?
May 24, 2011 at 9:36 am
Sanity
I was being sarcastic, inverting his argument to show why it was racist. This was not my view, but a parody of his.
May 19, 2011 at 3:31 pm
pretzelberg
When I think Zionist I think ‘religion-based imperialist ideology that hates Arabs and believes it is a chosen race’.
In that case you perhaps need to get out more.
May 19, 2011 at 6:26 pm
SerJew
“In that case you perhaps need to get out more.” pretzlnut
There goes the uncontrollable projection-master once again…
May 19, 2011 at 7:28 pm
Jimbo
Why stab Pretzel in the back, schmuck?
May 19, 2011 at 9:23 pm
SerJew
Why do you care, mr. jimbeast? I say my mind up front, not with your pompous post-modern pseudo-intellectual babblings.
Go essentialize yourself.
May 20, 2011 at 6:47 am
Jimbo
You really are a moron, aren’t you?
May 20, 2011 at 12:39 pm
SerJew
“You really are a moron, aren’t you?” mambo-jimbo
Please, stop your projection compulsion. You are a major hypocrite, accusing people here of being “Neanderthals”, when you behave exactly like one. Grow up.
May 20, 2011 at 2:30 am
MindTheCrap
So should you – start with Hebron
May 19, 2011 at 6:03 pm
SerJew
There it goes again: “bigots”, “racists”, “imperialists”, those same ghost-like categories, lumping people together in stereotypes, exactly the thing this insanitary moron was accusing others of doing.
It´s just hypocrisy taken to new heights.
May 19, 2011 at 1:26 pm
Jimbo
Your equating Islam with brown people and, implicitly, Judaism with white is also racist.
Ergo, you are a racist.
May 19, 2011 at 5:05 pm
SerJew
More racism here at Cif Watch!
Cool, yet another reason for you to get back to CiF. Don´t be scared, just go.
May 19, 2011 at 5:37 pm
SerJew
“Judaism has its extremists too” Jimbo
That´s a truism. Every human culture, people, nation, religion, sect, group, team, etc has its extremists.
Point is: who are commiting most extremist acts and motivated by what principles, today? The answer is: MUSLIMS motivated by Islamic religion.
Fortunately, they spent most of their time killing each other and I hope they´ll continue very busy at that.
May 19, 2011 at 9:09 pm
Jimbo
‘That´s a truism.’
i.e. it’s true. Ariadne said or implied it wasn’t.
May 19, 2011 at 9:25 pm
SerJew
“i.e. it’s true.” jimjones
yes, a truth that even a moron such as yourself can come up with. Quite your style.
May 19, 2011 at 1:51 pm
Sanity
Nice to see religious extremism alive and well here at CiF Watch!
May 19, 2011 at 2:17 pm
Jimbo
‘Nice to see religious extremism alive and well here at CiF Watch!’
Why would that be ‘nice’? Is that what you want to see?
Wouldn’t that make you a religious extremist, too?
May 20, 2011 at 6:53 am
Sanity
Er, I think you’ll find the comment was sarcastic…
May 19, 2011 at 3:37 pm
pretzelberg
Nice to see religious extremism alive and well here at CiF Watch!
There’s plenty of political extremism BTL here – but what “religious extremism” are you referring to?
May 19, 2011 at 3:48 pm
Sanity
I was thinking in particular of this: http://cifwatch.com/2011/05/19/in-defense-of-geoffrey-alderman/#comment-47690.
May 19, 2011 at 2:24 pm
Sanity
Hi everyone, take a look at this link from a commenter on this very site, CiF Watch: http://cifwatch.com/2011/05/19/in-defense-of-geoffrey-alderman/#comment-47736.
Let me excerpt from it: ‘it so happens that the Arabs covet what rightfully belongs to the Jews, so we hate them‘.
Let’s be clear: that is racism pure and simple.
May 19, 2011 at 2:31 pm
ziontruth
Alright. You have a bag o’ $2000 with you. I demand it from you, even using force to take it away from you. For my actions, you hate me. Therefore, you’re prejudiced, bigoted etc. toward me.
Right?
May 19, 2011 at 3:16 pm
Sanity
If I were you I would have said, yep, fair cop, you’ve got me, I made a slip and I regret it, and I apologise. But no, you keep digging.
May 19, 2011 at 3:25 pm
ziontruth
“If I were you I would have said, yep, fair cop, you’ve got me, I made a slip and I regret it, and I apologise.”
Yeah, just like Israel should confess guilt in “stealing land” and apologize for it, preferably with payments of land through the nose. Give a dog a bad name, then ask him to admit the truth of that bad name and hang himself as expiation.
I have nothing to apologize for. You have your being an anti-Zionist to apologize for, and all your words that stem thereof.
May 19, 2011 at 4:19 pm
Sanity
So you stand by the comment ‘we hate Arabs’ then?
May 19, 2011 at 4:30 pm
ziontruth
Change “we” to “I” (in deference to Snigger’s rightly-made remark that I need to make it clear I’m only speaking for myself) and the answer is yes.
Also add that this hatred of mine is cause-based and not immutable; that if the Arabs were to stop coveting the Jews’ land, I would stop hating them. I don’t hate them because they’re Arabs but because they want my land. I’d hate any other nation who wished to steal Jewish land just the same.
Again, I’m not apologizing here, just clarifying what my position really is, in contradistinction to how you portray it to be. I’m not ashamed of my position, no matter what you think of it.
May 19, 2011 at 4:42 pm
pretzelberg
So why say “we” in the first place?
May 19, 2011 at 4:52 pm
ziontruth
A mistake of thinking on my part. The “We” was meant to cover all New Zionists, meaning Israeli Jews who have through the experiences of the 2000s learned that the goal of the Arabs with regard to the Jewish State is total, not about merely the post-1967 territories. My mistake was in not foreseeing how this “We” would be interpreted as speaking for everyone on this site.
Now that’s something to apologize for, and I do that without hesitation. But the opinion itself, after this mistake on my part has been cleared, stands without apology.
May 19, 2011 at 6:49 pm
Ariadne
ziontruth: the proper answer is “It’s the royal ‘we’”. Margaret Thatcher used to use it a lot.
May 19, 2011 at 7:00 pm
ziontruth
Heh. But there is no royalty in Israel, only self-appointed elites just like everywhere else.
Anyhow, we had to make amends for our mistake once we heard people on this forum say, “We are not amused.” Now we’re back to normal (we hope).
May 24, 2011 at 9:44 am
Sanity
I think you would do well to read the book “I Shall Not Hate” by a certain Yitzhak Frankenthal. It might teach you some humility and civility.
May 19, 2011 at 2:49 pm
Jimbo
Oh wow, amazing. You went on a thread and found a comment that is objectionable.
You must be some kind of super researcher-genius.
Except you forgot to include yourself, racist.
May 19, 2011 at 3:19 pm
Sanity
So if you can substantiate that claim with a link to my racism, then I’ll be more than happy to retract and apologise. Otherwise, just shut up.
Oh, and some of us oppose all forms of racism, not just racism against Jews, and that’s why we bother trying to point it out.
May 19, 2011 at 4:45 pm
Jimbo
‘Otherwise, just shut up.’
I’ve just demonstrated why you’re a racist.
May 20, 2011 at 6:50 am
Sanity
I must have missed your intellectual brilliance somewhere, so, for the sake of my tiny brain and poor understanding, would yo umind showing me again? Or pointing out where you demonstrated this so conclusively?
May 21, 2011 at 4:01 pm
Jimbo
a) you equated Islam with brown people, implying Judaism and Israel, inter alia, with white; that those that a pro-Zionist or Israel are inherently anti-brown/Islam, or that those that are critical of certain forms of Islamism are anti-brown i.e. you reduced the who matter to one of skin colour.
b) you essentialised Zionism as imperialist racism.
OK, you have since recanted b), but I was hardly to know. We shall see whether what you say subsequently demonstrates that.
May 24, 2011 at 9:42 am
Sanity
On (b) I think I’ve shown that the comment you are quoting was written sarcastically, in response to someone ‘essentialising’ Islam. I inverted their argument to show them it was racist. Sorry if you thought that was my own view.
On (a) the argument I made was that there are people out there who demonise Islam as a convenient way of not being accused of racism, when essentially they are trying to make comments about brown people. Especially among the EDL and BNP in the UK. I know plenty of black, white, brown and even Chinese muslims. It doesn’t matter a jot to me what colour they are. The point is racists use Islam as a convenient scapegoat because they can claim that Islam is a belief system, or a culture or something else, so criticism of it is legitimate. It’s a way for them to hide their racism.
You also sometimes see it with the Jew / Zionist blurred line.
May 19, 2011 at 5:10 pm
SerJew
And insanity´s little inner people´s commissar syndrome returns…Oh, my,
she/it just love to cry “racist” all the time, to feel good inside just for a moment.
May 19, 2011 at 6:51 pm
Ariadne
What a felicitous turn of phrase you have, SerJew.
May 19, 2011 at 2:32 pm
ANTI-ZIONIST ( NOT ANTI-SEMITIC )
Geoffrey Alderman= (NA)ZIONIST MOTHERFUCKER PIECE OF SHIT. When he will die I will celebrate with champagne.
May 19, 2011 at 3:48 pm
Thank God I'm An Infidel
Hey national SOCIALIST filth, too bad your side LOST WW2.
And “too bad” for you that the Israelis are NOT the unarmed Semites of WW2 nazi socialist filth infested europe.
May 19, 2011 at 6:53 pm
Ariadne
Not a native speaker of English, that national socialist.
May 19, 2011 at 5:12 pm
SerJew
No, where are all those outraged “anti-racists”? Why aren´t they asking to censure this nazi-moron?
Maybe he´s one of them. Probably.
May 21, 2011 at 1:39 pm
Yvonne
Moderators, do we need this?
May 19, 2011 at 3:17 pm
Groovy Times
Sanity, when you say ‘Islam’ is used as code for ‘brown’ people, is this similar to how you use ‘Zionist’ for hook-nosed, hunched-back, horn-growing, war-mongering anti-Christ?
Thought so.
May 19, 2011 at 3:21 pm
Sanity
Times, yes, I mean something similar. There are folks who do use Zionist to broadcast their racism against Jews. I oppose it whole-heartedly. I don’t engage in it myself, though. Please point out if you think I have and where and I’ll be happy to retract.
May 19, 2011 at 3:24 pm
Snigger
Where exactly have you opposed it Links please
May 19, 2011 at 3:46 pm
Sanity
That’s not how it works. Innocent until proven guilty.
May 21, 2011 at 1:49 pm
Snigger
Narcissistic and ignorant more like. No, I asked for links because I might’ve learned something had you provided them. And I don’t think enough of you to wonder whether you are capable of making things up – I assume that you probably are given your showing here hitherto.
Groovy Times, it probably doesn’t register. I have just realised the extent of Sanity’s narcissism. It must be hard for anything to register if you are the centre of the universe.
May 24, 2011 at 3:09 pm
Sanity
I have opposed it right here on this thread. If you have evidence otherwise please present it.
May 19, 2011 at 4:06 pm
Groovy Times
Sanity, there’s a post just above mine calling for death to the Zionist aka Jew Alderman. Doesn’t that register on your moral outrage radar? If not, then your claim to stand up against hatred and bigotry in all its forms is pure bombast.
And my point being, anti-Zionists tend to delude themselves that their hatred of Israel has nothing to do with negative tropes they hold – and have inherited from their racist ancestors – about the Jewish collective. But that is what fuels their self-righteousness, their belief that repackaging their libels against the Jewish people somehow transforms their bigotry into a progressive and liberal state of mind.
May 19, 2011 at 4:13 pm
Sanity
As far as I could tell it was not directed at him because he was a Jew. I didn’t know Alderman was Jewish, either, so I wouldn’t have made that assumption.
But it was a pretty disgusting thing to write, and he should be ashamed of himself. And apologise.
As for you ‘point’ I agree, some people do do that. I don’t.
May 19, 2011 at 5:14 pm
SerJew
Hypocrite, just confirming what we all knew.
May 19, 2011 at 4:28 pm
Groovy Times
Sanity, why is my point in inverted commas? Does it need to be qualified in some way?
And you believe those that do are a minority. I don’t, it’s an integral part of European culture to test the mettle of one’s superior morality and humanity by the measure of the Jew / Zionist. You do it yourself, you perceive yourself to be a member of peace-loving humanity and Zionists are your antithesis.
May 19, 2011 at 4:39 pm
pretzelberg
it’s an integral part of European culture to test the mettle of one’s superior morality and humanity by the measure of the Jew / Zionist.
I cannot believe that you actually mean that. It’s plain madness.
May 19, 2011 at 5:17 pm
SerJew
Everything you can´t grasp is “madness”, which just means you have a rudimentary intellectual capability, just as your mate insanitary.
SHAME ON YOU!!!
May 19, 2011 at 4:32 pm
lugerjack
As a good Jew, I was trying to be sad when I heard that Arigonni has been murdered. But I couldn’t.
May 19, 2011 at 4:38 pm
pretzelberg
Pretty shocking – although in Alderman’s case hardly surprising – to see people here retrospectively condemning someone to death … on the grounds of thought crime.
And to think when I first came across this website I thought it might have something in the way of progressive (that’s not in the US political sense, of course) thought to offer.
May 19, 2011 at 5:18 pm
SerJew
OK, now that you are so disappointed with this blog, why don´t you take an adult attitude and just move instead of whining endlessly like a baby?
May 19, 2011 at 4:43 pm
Hoi Polloi
Of course, we all know what Sanity is and he gives it away time and again. The latest little clue is so obvious that even people like Ken Livingstone and Jenny Tonge would notice:
“When I think Zionist I think ‘religion-based imperialist ideology that hates Arabs and believes it is a chosen race’.”
Can anyone think of any expression that has been used more often against the Jewish people that that of the “chosen race”?
Of course, this is nothing but projection on the part of such people. Take, for example, the British who, inter alia, felt that they had some divine right to rape much of the world, collaborate in the Holocaust, engage in mass-murder against the German people, act in a manner in post-war Palestine that would have done credit to the SS, murder hundreds of Argentinian sailors, oppress the Irish for centuries and bomb nations around the world from Serbia to Afghanistan.
The father of an American friend of mine was going on the other week about how hopeless British troops were during World War II. His exact words were more or less as follows: “Ugly little men with red faces, bad teeth, bow legs and no brains .” I was forced to correct him: “Ugly little men with red faces, bad teeth, bow legs and no brains with evil in their hearts.” When I was through telling him the whole story, he was forced to agree with me.
—————
And no, Sanity doesn’t have a clue about the real meaning of racism. Not even a Sociology 201 clue.
May 20, 2011 at 6:28 am
Sanity
Er, so, I was actually being sarcastic. If you read the post that I was responding to, I was simply giving a parallel based on what the previous commenter was writing. They had written something like that about Islam, and I just reflected it to show what a racist comment it was. So you simply prove my point. But I apologise if you actually thought that was my view. It’s not.
May 19, 2011 at 4:47 pm
Hoi Polloi
“Geoffrey Alderman= (NA)ZIONIST MOTHERFUCKER PIECE OF SHIT. When he will die I will celebrate with champagne.”
When you die, I will let off a fart in your direction.
Oh, and it is not Zionism which is evil but European culture. In a decent moral universe it would not longer exist.
May 19, 2011 at 4:58 pm
pretzelberg
When you die, I will let off a fart in your direction.
In said poster’s case, a perhaps too gentle a fate.
But talking about “European culture” as “evil” is just silly.
And the British didn’t “collaborate in the Holocaust”.
Ignore the idiots and calm down.
May 19, 2011 at 5:06 pm
Hoi Polloi
“But talking about “European culture” as “evil” is just silly.”
As I have shown on many occasions here it is far from “silly”.
“And the British didn’t “collaborate in the Holocaust”.”
Once again, you demonstrate a startling ignorance. Not only did the British as a matter of deliberate policy not lift a finger to assist the drowning Jews of Europe, they led the worldwide campaign to prevent Jews finding a safe haven. Do yourself a favour before spouting nonsense yet again and read up on the history of the period. More likely, on reflection, you do know and you don’t care.
May 19, 2011 at 5:10 pm
pretzelberg
I repeat: the British did not “collaborate” in the Holocaust – even if more could and should have been done to stop the latter. You know this. Perhaps your comments are just backlash against another poster.
May 19, 2011 at 5:23 pm
SerJew
“Ignore the idiots…” pretlenut
Why don´t you help by stopping your posts, then?
May 20, 2011 at 2:34 am
MindTheCrap
The scatological reins supreme here
May 19, 2011 at 5:21 pm
SerJew
Hoi Polloi,
That moron´s is already dead and rotten inside. I hope he´ll celebrate Nabka before vanishing from this earth.
May 19, 2011 at 4:54 pm
Groovy Times
Pretzel, a cursory look at the history of European-Jewish relations would suggest that this madness is indeed the name of the game.
May 19, 2011 at 5:07 pm
pretzelberg
European-Jewish “relations” over the centuries was a one-way “relationship” of oppression. We all know about that.
But saying it IS (today) “an integral part of European culture to test the mettle of one’s superior morality and humanity by the measure of the Jew / Zionist” is sheer nonsense.
That’s just barmy.
May 20, 2011 at 7:21 am
SilverTrees
No it isn’t “barmy” just because YOU think it is, pretzelberg. It is your opinion and I disagree with it.
May 19, 2011 at 5:15 pm
pretzelberg
And why always the automatic digs against the British whenever some fascist/anti-Semitic wanker pops up their ugly head here?
It’s in the US that fully-fledged Nazi rallies still take place, people.
May 19, 2011 at 6:20 pm
Ariadne
He just hates the British, pretzelberg. Just as some people hate Jews.
May 21, 2011 at 1:38 pm
Yvonne
pretzelberg, I too find the automatic digs at the Brits irritating. I wonder whether the people who do that are from the US?
If so, they are ignorant of the seam of antisemitism in American history and the extent to which the US is itself beset by the creeping Islamist menace. Motes and beams.
May 19, 2011 at 5:19 pm
ziontruth
The relationship between Jews and the surrounding non-Jewish society in Europe was mostly downs, with a few occasional ups, such as late medieval Poland. What a lot of people don’t realize is the same is true for the relationship between Jews and the surrounding Muslims in their countries. People talk about the Golden Age of the Jews of Islamic Spain, but that lasted not much longer than the period of Jewish prosperity in Poland. For the most part, Jewish life in the Islamic world was characterized by the same kind of seclusion in ghettoes (called mellahs), fear of pogroms and payment of special fees to ensure continued life as in the Christian world. (As for the contention that the Muslims never committed a genocide of the Jews–that’s probably because they’d expended those energies on the Hindus.)
The conclusion I arrive at is that the issue isn’t this or that culture, but the need for a state and army with defensible borders, without international “laws” obstructing that defense and without another nation living within those borders. Even non-Jews can’t live securely without such conditions. It is the present that matters most; what was done was done, while anti-Zionism is the current danger that needs to be confronted.
May 19, 2011 at 6:04 pm
zeitgoose
Hoi Polloi
“engage in mass-murder against the German people”
the bombing of Dresden, right?
the brits deserve a lot of your criticism. yes, their arab buddies were appeased along the way and they did many shameful things to the jews. All the same, they made a stand, alone in the world, against the Nazis in ’39. without their sacrifice no jews would have made it to the promised land – and there would have been no israel to return to.
I admire your fight for israel and ageee with many of your views. but i am the child of a jewish mother (warsaw ghetto) and british army father, and i can tell you that your blanket hatred for the brits is intemperate and misguided.
May 19, 2011 at 6:21 pm
Ariadne
Well said. And how would Jews in the Yishuv have fared without Orde Wingate?
May 19, 2011 at 7:18 pm
Jane Schlitz
This thread confuses me and seems to veered off somewhere. On track: Alderman simply stated his opinion bluntly, some people were offended, some weren’t…. move on.
May 20, 2011 at 2:41 am
MindTheCrap
It’s not confusing, Jane. It is all about trying to prove that Arabs celebrating the death of the enemy is despicable (e.g. after suicide bombers, rockets, etc) while Jews celebrating the death of the enemy is perfectly acceptable (e.g. Arrigoni).
I see that Adam is back-tracking somewhat in his latest thread. I hope that he is sufficiently embarrassed by the comments on this one.
May 20, 2011 at 6:37 am
Sanity
Very well said.
May 20, 2011 at 7:13 am
Jane Schlitz
I”m still confused….I fail to see how celebrating the death of an Italian is racist, how celebrating the death of an adult Italian man by an author is the same as parties in the street by groups of people celebrating the death of children being slaughtered in their sleep. Especially since the people who killed this activist were the people he claimed to be supporting, and the gentleman who is celebrating was not on the same team as the murderers.
May 20, 2011 at 7:26 am
SarahLeah
Think “double standards” and “half-formed gut reactions” of those who have condemned Geoffrey Alderman and it might help.
Honestly, we have MindtheCrap thinking je can lecture the editors (probably he thinks he’s doing it for their own good) and elsewhere accusing another poster of resorting to scatalogical abuse – with a name like his!
And Sanity posting as if he’s anything but
If these aren’t indices of extremely bent thinking then I don’t know what is!
May 20, 2011 at 7:20 am
SilverTrees
MindtheCrap, a word to the wise: your oedipus complex in relation to any and every male you perceive to be powerful or “in charge” on CiF Watch is showing. I can see evidence of it in most of your posts here but particularly so in the latest one. It’s a highly unattractive trait and you are obviously unaware of it otherwise you’d not show yourself up in this fashion.
May 20, 2011 at 7:15 am
SilverTrees
Jane, it’s a deliberate ploy by ignoramuses such as Sanity. Unfortunately by engaging with him/her/it, this exacerbates the problem.
May 20, 2011 at 7:17 am
SilverTrees
It’s a deliberate ploy by idiots like Sanity who is unwittingly aided and abetted by replies or engaging with him/her/it.
May 20, 2011 at 1:08 pm
pretzelberg
Strange. I didn’t have you down as a David Icke conspiracy sympathiser.
May 20, 2011 at 6:18 pm
SilverTrees
Nor I you, pretzelberg. You sound coherent — sometimes.
May 20, 2011 at 2:09 am
Thank God I'm An Infidel
http://www.boycottscotland.com
It’s all about British compassion for Libyan oil contracts.
Britain favours Oil contracts over the Blood of the passengers of Pan Am 103.
May 20, 2011 at 2:45 am
MindTheCrap
Why should we “boycott Scotland” ? We should be supporting Scottish independence (are you aware of last week’s election results?), something that will turn Britain into the 5th rate power that it deserves to be.
May 20, 2011 at 11:19 am
Thank God I'm An Infidel
The WORLD should BOYCOTT scotland for releasing the convicted bomber of passenger airliner Pan Am 103 on the PRETENSE that the bomber was going to die within 3 months.
The bomber was released in August 2009.
It’s May 2011. The convicted bomber is still alive.
Here is a video of the heroes welcome on the return home to libya the convicted bomber of Pan Am 103 was greeted with – complete with a waving Flag of Shame, the saltire, the collaborationist flag of “scotland”.
BOYCOTT DIVEST SANCTION scotand and the uk!
http://www.boycottscotland.com
May 20, 2011 at 6:14 pm
Snigger
I’m tempted to agree given the latest lunacy to come out of Scotland, see http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/49160/plan-ban-israeli-books-scotland
May 21, 2011 at 7:31 am
Visitor
Next stop is book burning in scotland.
http://www.boycottscotland.com !!!
May 20, 2011 at 6:41 am
Sanity
If you knew anything rudimentary about law and that case, you will also know that it’s very unlikely that Libya had a hand in the Lockerbie bombing. It is much more likely that the Iranian secret service did the deed. But in your hysterical screaming you probably missed out on the subtleties.
May 20, 2011 at 7:28 am
SarahLeah
Oh oh…
There’s a card holding fool above spouting about the law as if he knows anything and suggesting that Iran was behind the Lockerbie bombing…
Sad…
May 20, 2011 at 7:42 am
Sanity
Ok, have a read of this and get back to me:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n18/gareth-peirce/the-framing-of-al-megrahi
May 20, 2011 at 6:17 pm
SarahLeah
Ah, the London Review of Books, eh?
See http://justjournalism.com/reports/london-review-of-books/
Take it easy. You might strain your brain
May 20, 2011 at 1:24 pm
SerJew
“Britain favours Oil contracts over the Blood of the passengers of Pan Am 103.” ThankGodImaninfidel
Exactly. Plus, it´s an appeasing gesture in the hope they are buying security against terrorists. It seems that the british forgot the recent european history, particularly the chapter on appeasing.
May 20, 2011 at 5:07 am
Derek Pasquill
157 comments – Harriet Sherwood is definitely blog viagra – that is when she is not doubling up as the Guardian’s prize turd in its unending stream of effluent.
May 20, 2011 at 7:28 pm
Claudio Magliulo
You, like mr. Alderman, don’t know nothing about Vittorio. You don’t even speak italian and you haven’t read what he wrote. You don’t know what he thought and believed in. He was very critical with Hamas (as witnessed by his blog and interviews given to italian media), and was a human-rights activist. He worked for peace as a human shield, dind’t carry weapons or was violent to anyone. He was very critical about Israel policy, and this doesn’t mean that he hated Jews. This is nonsense from you and Mr. Alderman. The cartoon you are speaking of means very clearly that, for absurd, if Jesus was born in 21st century Palestine, he would have certainly been arrested by Israeli soldiers, both as a Palestinian and as a prophet. That’s all. It shows the cruelty of Israel fist on Palestinians, and just this.
Your deep ignorance brought you to this point, very clearly. You should better inform and after that apologize for this ultimate offence to Vittorio’s life and death.
Claudio Magliulo
journalist
Italy
May 20, 2011 at 7:54 pm
SerJew
So, using your ridiculous notion (it works both ways, though I understand your type has difficult understanding that) if one doesn´t speak, read or write hebrew or arabic fluently, one cannot talk about Israel and palestine at all.
How come, then, that you and your mafia of second-rate european journalists spend so much time pontificating about Israel?
But, never mind, you are yet another pompous self-righteous euro-trash hypocrite which has no right nor credibility *whatsoever* hector Israel about anything.
I suggest you try to solve the deep troubles of your worn-out, appeasing, crisis-ridden, crumbling and morally capitulating EU before meddling in other people´s business.
May 21, 2011 at 11:13 am
Yohoho
I really sympathise with your pain, Magliulo, but not with your stupidity. Even you must realise that if your friend chose to lie down with Islamist dogs he risked catching their fleas. Hamas doesn’t care one little bit for kufar, and particularly not for those like him, and it seems that Hamas’ fist fell heavily on your antisemitic anti-Israel friend, even if he hated Israel and Jews as much if not more than they did.
Get over it.
May 21, 2011 at 3:00 pm
HairShirt
I thought this might interest you Claudio, and give you some insight into the animals your friend Arrigoni chose to run with:
“…To understand the death of this Italian activist, a few important facts must be grasped: his death was triggered by the spurious way he mixed his humanitarian ideals with the cause of fundamentalism in Gaza, and by the fact that he mixed his life with that of his potential enemies, whom he considered to be his best friends. (my emphasis). But fundamentalists do not have stable affinities. Only their interpretation of the Quran counts. Hamas in Gaza, where Arrigoni was killed, is a land ruled by awful, alien laws. Arrigoni loved the Palestinians, but he remained a total foreigner to them. It is for us inconceivable, even if you are a militant like Arrigoni, to live alongside those who fire missiles at civilians, wear belts packed with explosives, and hand out sweets when an Israeli family is killed in Itamar, including a three month-old baby, a four year-old child, and another of nine.
“This is the crucial issue: when you go to Gaza, or Afghanistan, you have to realise that our conception of life is completely different from any Islamic political conception of life. You could be killed because you are Jewish, because you are Italian, or Christian, because you are an apostate, or a corrupt Westerner. The extremist mentality make no bones about it, and cancels out friends and allies. No matter how much you have worked against the “Zionist power” or how often you have called Zionists “rats” (and Arrigoni did this), nothing is of any worth if you break their law, a law which will remain unclear until the knife blade comes. Arrigoni was a fan of political Islamism because he was an enemy of the Jews, but this did not save him from a cruel execution in front of the camera, just like many other friends and enemies of Hamas, or the “Islamic Jihad,” never mind the name ….”
(Source http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/persecution-by-islam/why-they-didn%E2%80%99t-spare-vittorio-arrigoni/)
May 21, 2011 at 3:44 pm
Jimbo
The trouble is, Claudio, that you appear to so steeped in an antisemitic culture yourself, you cannot even recognise that the accusation that Israeli Jewish soldiers would bind Jesus for his crucifixion (for that is what soldiers do in the gospel narrative) is one deeply rooted in centuries of Christian anti-Judaism and antisemitism.
May 22, 2011 at 2:35 am
Arabella Meller
Claudio my Italian may be less than fluent but let us look at what you say in English. The cartoon you are speaking of means very clearly that, for absurd, if Jesus was born in 21st century Palestine, he would have certainly been arrested by Israeli soldiers, both as a Palestinian and as a prophet. Israel doesn’t arrest Palestinians for being Palestinians or prophets for being prophets. Jesus was a Jew of the school of Hillel. Israeli Arabs representing Arab parties serve in the Israeli Knesset – helping to govern the people – and are not arrested for being who they are.
Your comment makes me realise how little knowledge you have of our country. I pity you, an ignorant journalist.
May 20, 2011 at 7:51 pm
Jane Schlitz
Maybe he should have been a human rights activist in his own country, Mr. Magliulo, how’s all those Libyan refugee’s?
May 21, 2011 at 6:09 am
Groovy Times
Claudio Magliulo, a son of the very culture that brought us so many anti-Semitic tropes and libels in the first place, surprisingly sees nothing wrong with the anti-Semitic libels that the false hero Vittorio used to publicise the justice of his cause – fighting Jewish power in the struggle for universal peace and humanity.
Now Mr Magliulo, your self-righteous lamentations at the death of your fellow Italian shows us quite clearly that when it comes to issues of life and death you are incapable of bridging your instinctive (Catholic) dislikes and prejudices in order to empathise with the Jewish predicament of (yet again) being the target for the forces of reaction which are dedicated to Israel’s physical destruction. In this case at least, your command of the Italian language does not act as an antidote to your general ignorance and bigotry.
May 21, 2011 at 10:41 am
HairShirt
Claudio, why have you removed your blog? Are you ashamed of it?
Anyone who supports Hamas, who is capable of publishing such filth on his own blog site is no human rights activist, Claudio. Human rights activism is cheapened currency thanks to the multitude of busy bodies who stick their noses into the predominantly self-made plight of the “poor Palestinians.”
Jesus, you idiot, was a Jew. If he came back to 21st century Israel and travelled to Gaza he would probably be beheaded by the same people who beheaded Arrigoni, BECAUSE JESUS WOULD HAVE PREACHED PEACE. Israelis would not have harmed a hair on his head, although they may have disagreed with him. You see, unlike Islam, Judaism is grounded in a healthy culture of debate. Jews praise and privilege critical thinking, and Muslims are stuck in the Dark Ages because it is forbidden to them. It’s possible to disagree with Jewish law (as Jesus did) and not be harmed by Jews. Disagree with shari’a or Islamists and you risk your life. That cartoon is part of the poison of Sabeel, the so-called “Christian” ecumenical foundation which is busily trying to divorce the Jewish people from their land, probably because it hopes that Hamas and Fatah will leave it alone. Are you a member of it?
Arrigoni was a parasite and a terror supporter and no worker for peace. He deserved everything he got.
You, it seems, are blind, deaf and dumb to the hate he spread and you continue to spread it in his memory.
And you also exhibit the delusional mindset of the blind Islamism supporter.
May 21, 2011 at 11:07 am
Snigger
HairShirt, is this the same Sabeel headed up by Naim Ateek who claims that the Jews first had the idea of suicide terror (the idiot gives the analogy of the story of Samson, as if there’s any comparison!) and has published papers which argue that the Jews are crucifying Jesus all over again by their treatment of the Palestinians, which is rank antisemitism and not a very original reworking of the antisemitic “the Jews killed Jesus” blood libel?
The cartoon is also reminiscent of the ones on Christmas cards by Christian Aid, who, like the Quakers are in bed with Sabeel.
If so, then Arrigoni was one sick, antisemitic ticket and his buddy Claudio seems to be cast in the same mould.