This is a guest post by a CiF Watch reader who prefers to remain anonymous and has performed a stunning forensic analysis of evidence adduced by McGreal
Below is a copy of the second page of minutes from an ISSA meeting produced by Chris McGreal in his “memos and minutes that confirm Israel’s nuclear stockpile“.
This piece of “proof” adduced by Chris McGreal serves as the lynchpin to McGreal’s claims. Here are some observations:
1. This is the second page of a multi-page document. No inferences can be drawn from it without seeing the whole document, and particularly the first page. At the moment one cannot even see the date even though McGreal disclosed the date of an earlier meeting (June 30, 1975) in other minutes produced in his “memos and minutes that confirm Israel’s nuclear stockpile”. Is the entire document available?
2. It is plainly draft minutes, on which substantial corrections have been made. This is very common in the civil service of all countries. The original note was obviously not very accurate. It is full of mistakes and what originally appears there is plainly not an accurate account of what was said, and the same or another official has later tried to correct it.
3. Is the finalised version available, and if not, why not? Has Sasha Polakow-Suransky tried to obtain it?
4. A point to remember is that the note-taker might not have had English as his first language, and might well have been Afrikaans speaking, which meant that the note itself might be wrongly expressed, and, more importantly, he or she might not have understood Minister Peres with his thick accent, and the fact that English is not his first language. The negotiations were probably conducted in English as the common language between Hebrew and Afrikaans speakers.
5. Paragraph 10 of the version actually quoted by McGreal is a figment of someone’s imagination.
This is the original typed version of Paragraph 10 before the handwritten corrections:
10 “Minister Botha expressed interest in a limited number of unit of Chalet provide [sic] the correct payload could be provided, Minister Peres said that the correct payload was available in three sizes. Minister Botha expressed his appreciation and said that he would ask for advice.”
This has been later corrected by hand by the same or another official to the following, which is presumably a more accurate rendition of what was actually said:
10 “Minister Botha expressed interest in a limited number of units of Chalet subject to the correct payload.”
The rest of the original paragraph 10 has been deleted. The other paragraphs on the page have also been extensively amended by the official who corrected the draft.
Here’s a snapshot of what McGreal actually wrote in relation to Paragraph 10 in his “expose“:
Now here’s the interesting part. Upon analysis of McGreal’s quotation of Paragraph 10 , he accepted the official “corrections” in some instances, rejected others and added in some of his own contributions. This is an unusual and very odd way of reporting. Here is what McGreal wrote this time with my comments in bold:
“The top secret minutes of the meeting record that: [note that what follows purports to be a quote from Paragraph 10] “Minister Botha expressed interest in a limited number of units of Chalet subject to [McGreal has accepted the official corrected insertion of the words “subject to”, and also the official deletion of the word “provide”] the correct payload being available [McGreal has accepted the official deletion of the words “could be provided” and inserted the invented words “being available”].” The document then records: “Minister Peres said the correct payload was available in three sizes. Minister Botha expressed his appreciation and said that he would ask for advice.” [McGreal has rejected the official deletion of all these words, and included them anyway in his corrected version.] The “three sizes” are believed to refer to the conventional, chemical and nuclear weapons.”
The person who “believes” this last sentence is not identified, nor are his qualifications to draw this inference given, nor is any source provided for the inference. Plainly, McGreal does not have enough confidence in it to say “I believe it” and give his grounds.
Going through it again: The words “provide” and “could be provided” have both been deleted. The latter deletion (which McGreal accepts) is crucial and shows that Botha was expressing interest in acquiring “Chalets” with a certain payload, not asking for the payload itself to be provided. That is why the person who corrected it deleted “provide” and “could be provided”.
The sentence which is left can only have one meaning: Botha expressed interest in acquiring a number of Chalets subject to them being capable of carrying the correct payload.
In order to enable his meaning to be attributed to the passage, McGreal has to insert the words “being available”. Otherwise, the inference doesn’t get off the ground. The actual sentence reads only: “Minister Botha expressed interest in a limited number of units of Chalet subject to the correct payload.” There is no suggestion that the payloads must be “available”, except in the McGreal version, where the words are falsely inserted.
The next key point is that the following sentence, on which this whole theory is based, i.e. what Minister Peres allegedly said, has also been deleted in its entirety. Peres obviously never said these words, and that’s why the official who corrected the draft deleted it. Anyone can check this.
I say “obviously” because (a) the deletion is there in black and white for all to see, and (b) the sentence makes no sense. Here the context is essential and that’s why nothing can be certain until we see the first page. It seems that they weren’t discussing the payload at all; they were discussing the development of, or the purchase of, the missile. That’s what Botha says: he “expressed interest in a limited number of units of Chalet” [here we are dependent on Polakow-Suransky to tell us that “Chalet” means missile, but I assume that’s correct]. The next words show that he probably said something about the missiles being capable of bearing the “correct payload”.
Even if the crucial words of Peres, which have been deleted, responding to that expression of interest, give some indication that Peres said something, it is obvious that the note-taker thought he was talking about the size of the payload which the missile could carry, (i.e. the nature of the missile) rather than the nature of the payload. This can be seen from the reference to the missile being capable of carrying payloads of different sizes.
Even if Peres mentioned three (and that’s been deleted), all he seems to have said is that the missile was capable of carrying different sized payloads.
However, since the words the note-taker had originally used could imply that Peres was talking about the payload being available, the official correcting it has deliberately deleted it, presumably because it is ambiguous and conveys the wrong impression of what happened at the meeting.
Why should Peres have responded to an “expression of interest” in a missile capable of carrying a certain size payload, by talking only about the payload, let alone offering to supply it, still less offering to supply nuclear weapons. You have to be very obtuse and motivated to draw that inference.
An equivalent would be: I express an interest to you in obtaining a limited number of crystal glasses provided they can contain the correct liquids. You respond by saying that three types of liquid are available. McGreal would add: “It’s believed this refers to beer, wine, and spirits being available.”
It’s a complete non-sequitur and makes no sense.








78 comments
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May 26, 2010 at 2:48 am
Jonathan Hoffman
Shame on the cheating, twisting Guardian.
Go now, Rusbridger.
Jonathan Freedland – any comment?
May 26, 2010 at 2:59 am
JerusalemMite
Thank you ‘anonymous’.
A really good assessment in my eyes.
Sasha Polakow-Suransky may be getting much wanted publicity but, it seems that he has employed more biased innuendo than true academic research.
Rather like Shlomo Sands and the Khazar blood line.
I wonder if ‘Foreign Affairs’ people are keeping up with the unfolding revelations of shoddy, shoddy work and ‘Get Israel’ bias exhibited by their ‘Senior Editor’.
May 26, 2010 at 3:24 am
Gábor Fränkl
As I’ve read a couple of articles in the FP website, it’s clear to me that it is rather hostile to Israel per se.
Other than that Jonathan Friedland is a stupid NIEMAND along with all the other pig-faced (hint-hint: McGreal) antisemitic stupid NIEMANDs (or niemanden in German; plural) for that matter. The Guardian has no shame as it has been caught on lieing too many times one could count. It’s a primitive shoddy paper run by untalented truely antisemitic fascists from top to bottom. Not unlike the vast majority of the BBC.
May 26, 2010 at 3:59 am
Margie
It seems that anonymous Cifwatch readers are more perceptive and more thorough in the their observations than the kind of people whose biased guess-work the Guardian blazons forth on their front page.
Why does the phrase ”Jenin Massacre” come so strongly to my mind as a description of the way the Guardian operates?
May 26, 2010 at 4:51 am
Yvetta Bagel
What would the Press Council have to say about this? Would a formal complaint to them by in order?
May 26, 2010 at 5:18 am
Gábor Fränkl
Can Rusbridger – together with his hapless – or haplessly caught on cheating and censoring? – daughter – be Mugabe-fans so much the self-hatred? I read he’s from Zimbabwe. These people are lunatics and simply sick.
May 26, 2010 at 5:34 am
GaryO
How is anything “Top Secret” when everyone can get their hands on it?
Sue the bastards.
Yvetta Bagal, the press council in Britain is totally compromised by the lefties and is in cahoots with big media companies. They are worthless.
May 26, 2010 at 5:49 am
Yvetta Bagel
Gary, I wouldn’t be surprised at what you say – I wonder whether that renowned seat of learning, Lincoln University, will now revoke Rusbridger’s hon. doctorate, given last year. I suppose whole classes of media studies hopefuls are taught to lionise him.
Congratulations to CiFWatch – the showing up of the Guardian’s latest dirty tricks has been given star billing by the ever perspicacious Melanie Phillips as her latest blog.
May 26, 2010 at 5:51 am
Mitnaged
Excellent!
If this shows nothing else it will prove to intelligent, critical-thinking Joe and Jane Public that they cannot trust a word the Guardian writes in respect of Israel and the Middle East and if they are lying about those, what else are they lying through their teeth about?
Terminal narcissistic injury beckons for Rusbridger and his team. It’ll be interesting to see how he and McGreal try to wriggle out of this.
McGreal offers us a classic example of the Guardian’s selective twisting of “facts” to bend them to suit its agenda.
Well done CiFWatch (and AKUS) for beginning what I hope is a landslide which will bury The Guardian in its own lies.
May 26, 2010 at 5:54 am
Yvetta Bagel
Surely Tony Lerman, that sea-green incorruptible, cannot be happy about the Guardian’s latest abomination.
Let’s hear a denunciation of it from you, Tony!
May 26, 2010 at 5:58 am
zkharya
My guess is that ‘three sizes’ means ‘conventional, chemical, nuclear’. But if you accept the corrections, all that is being said is what the rocket is capable of carrying.
May 26, 2010 at 5:59 am
zkharya
‘Even if Peres mentioned three (and that’s been deleted), all he seems to have said is that the missile was capable of carrying different sized payloads.’
Or types of payload.
May 26, 2010 at 6:03 am
Ariadne
It seems to me possible that the minute-taker in paragraphs 10 and 11 perhaps conflated things s/he later had to sort out.
“Burglar” is mentioned in terms of weights (payload?).
My experience of taking minutes is of getting certain words down and later separating the strands of discussion.
May 26, 2010 at 6:25 am
zkharya
‘Burglar’ is discussed in km, Ariadne. The distances are way beyond Jericho 1 at the time, so it looks like reference to a putative successor, an intercontinental, as opposed to ballistic, missile, or the Jericho 2 and 3 generation. I think ‘Burglar’ might refer to ‘burglary’ i.e. invasion of RSA, hence last ditch act of nuclear deterrence, perhaps a neutron bomb warhead. There’s probably stuff about it online.
May 26, 2010 at 6:54 am
AKUS
The more articles and editorials the Guardian published the deeper into the shit of its own making it fell. This excellent analysis may make Polakow-Suransky wish that the Guardian had never drawn attention to his book, and that he had never written it.
Although, to be fair to Polakow-Suransky, it is even more the way McGreal twisted his his work to serve the Guardian’s anti-israel agenda that is so despicable. The Guardian has used this to “prove” that Israel was a supporter of apartheid and one-time Hitler supporters like Vorster.
Polakow-Suransky has tried to distance himself from those particular claims. However, he may now have learned that the fine academic distinctions he has tried to draw and his statements that his book should not be used to support those claims, coupled with his own poor research, have cost him his reputation. The Israel-haters are delighted with the stick he has provided with which they can bash Israel.
May 26, 2010 at 7:02 am
Ariadne
“zkharya: ‘Burglar’ is discussed in km, Ariadne.”
Sorry! And thank you!
From reading what you said about Jericho 1 I wondered if it were possible that the meeting couldn’t have involved later models.
Hope it doesn’t make me seem like a CiF poster.
May 26, 2010 at 7:39 am
Badger
I think this would be more effective if some way can be found to put up the whole document not just the second page. Is this possible?
May 26, 2010 at 7:42 am
zkharya
‘From reading what you said about Jericho 1 I wondered if it were possible that the meeting couldn’t have involved later models’
Only putatively, in 1975. Jericho 2 didn’t enter service until the late ’80s.
May 26, 2010 at 7:46 am
FoolMeOnce
Highly appreciated article, and the effort put in it. Although I find in it quite a lot of speculation and un-based inferences. (Although not as many as Al-Guardian’s)
“Peres obviously never said these words, and that’s why the official who corrected the draft deleted it.”
I don’t agree we can assume this whole paragraph attributed to Peres, which forms the core of the argument, is misquoted or simply invented. The deletion might have had different reasons, and that “the sentence makes no sense” I don’t agree with- it might be just inaccurately quoted or deliberately vague.
But we can all agree this shred of a memo is FAR from being sufficient proof for anything remotely like the Guardian is stating as a fact.
Once again they have thrown out the window basic methodologies and ethics and have went ahead according to their MARKET GOALS and personal beliefs, and not their journalistic mission, to come up with this MASSIVE piece of conjecture.
Thanks again for CiFWatch for their diligence.
May 26, 2010 at 7:53 am
Ariadne
I am not qualified to judge the veracity of this or the capability of the reviewer of the book:
‘Albright records that according to De Klerk “the weapons were never intended for actual use and they were never deployed militarily or integrated into the country’s military doctrine. In essence, he weapons were the last card in a political bluff intended to blackmail the US or other Western powers” in the face of a Soviet onslaught. “Whether it would have worked is impossible to determine.”
While De Klerk’s assertion may be true, many have and will refuse to accept it; believing instead the apartheid state would happily have incinerated any number of Africans to keep the Afrikaner in power.
Anyway, to work, Albright continues, this policy “required a credible nuclear weapon. And, according to Armscor officials, credibility required deliverability. If the nuclear devices were only test devices, the Western powers might not take SA’s threat seriously enough to intervene on its behalf.”
This then was the driver behind several related weapons programmes,
most notably the development of a domestic ballistic missile (Project Burglar) in collaboration with Israel and – according to Venter – other powers, principally “Red” China. “What eventually emerged from the reported 1974 Israeli-SA Project Burglar initiative was a reasonably versatile family of similar solid-propelled missiles such as the two-stage Jericho-2/YA-3 IR/LRICBM [intermediate range/long range intercontinental ballistic missile]; the three/four stage Shavit/1 SLV [satellite launch vehicle]; and the subsequent four-stage Next/Shavit-2 SLV, as well as another reported ICBM variant,” Venter says. The SA versions became known as the RSA-1, RSA-2 and RSA-3. While it is not clear to this reviewer what “RSA” stood for, it seems to him to have capitalised on the patriotism of the time, taking for itself the official initials of the Republic of South Africa.‘
May 26, 2010 at 7:55 am
Joe Millis
Zkharya etc
There was a surface-to-surface missile, called the Ivri, in at the end of the 70s. I think t had a range of about 300km, but I might be mistaken.
May 26, 2010 at 7:57 am
zkharya
The other reason RSA might have wanted an intercontinental type rocket might be because it wanted a satellite launching capability, which Israel acquired only from Jericho 2 and 3. ‘Burglar’ might be ‘burglar alarm’ i.e. a spy satellite, or an ability to detonate a neutron bomb warhead in the high atmosphere.
May 26, 2010 at 7:59 am
zkharya
Joe, maybe. But that is a short to medium ballistic missile range. Not in the same class as Jericho.
May 26, 2010 at 8:01 am
FoolMeOnce
I want to raise something else: Why is it really so wrong HAD Israel really try to sell nukes to RSA?
Don’t get me wrong: The country was evil and racist. It’s laws and behavior to its citizens were Nazi-like and deplorable. But those polices were wholly INTERNAL. As far as I know (I might be wrong) they never threatened any country or posed a risk to anyone.
I can see how selling arms, which everyone did, is considered immoral as in a sense they strengthen the country.
But it’s all somewhat irrelevant to its internal affairs. It’s completely different than selling arms to, say, Iran or North Korea, which state their aggressive goals.
Many ruthless dictators received arms from the west despite of their internal repression, because they seemingly don’t pose any threat, and nobody makes a story out of it.
May 26, 2010 at 8:02 am
zkharya
Yeah, Ariadne, basically.
May 26, 2010 at 8:05 am
spoton
The Guardian gleefully ran with this story.
And so did Haaretz.
May 26, 2010 at 8:08 am
zkharya
Foolmeonce,
the cooperation is based on a similarly perceived situation: an isolated community amidst a sea of eliminationist enemies.
In a sense, stopping the SWAPO-USSR threat forced focus of attention on SA’s internal policy.
Similarly, BDSers hope that by turning the Palestinian national movement non-violent, by eliminating, as it were, eliminationist threats facing Israel, or Israeli Jews, they can do the same thing.
May 26, 2010 at 8:10 am
zkharya
‘the cooperation is based on a similarly perceived situation: an isolated community amidst a sea of eliminationist enemies.’
The thwarting of which is what I suspect Peres meant by ‘justice’.
May 26, 2010 at 8:11 am
spoton
When will the Guardian publish secret weapon deals between Britain and Apartheid South Africa.
May 26, 2010 at 8:12 am
Joe Millis
Foolmeonce
RSA was running dirty wars in neighbouring states.
May 26, 2010 at 8:20 am
zkharya
I should have said ANC-SWAPO-USSR.
May 26, 2010 at 8:26 am
AKUS
Its also a mystery to me why South Africa may have had any interest in nuclear weapons which adds another layer of doubt in my mind to the whole story.
There was no country anywhere near South Africa that posed any kind of existential threat to SA. It was faced primarily with low-grade guerrilla activity by the ANC and in Namibia and provided assistance to Savimbi in Angola. There was no useful way that I can see to have used a nuclear weapon – the enemy was scattered over thousands of sq. kms. of bush and desert, and there was no target worthy of using a nuclear device on. For what its worth, for example, on wiki’s Namibia entry, it states that Namibia “is the second least densely populated country in the world, after Mongolia”.
May 26, 2010 at 8:30 am
zkharya
AKUS, read Ariadne’s last comment.
May 26, 2010 at 8:42 am
pretzelberg
McGreal appears to be reading too much into the document. But so does the author re. McGreal’s analysis.
May 26, 2010 at 8:47 am
Hawkeye
@pretzelberg
Herzlich wilkommen! I was wondering where you were
What do you have to say about McGreal making up the quote from Paragraph 10. Its there in black and white. I don’t think the author is making too much at all out of this.
May 26, 2010 at 8:47 am
pretzelberg
Israel has a missile named “Jericho”? Would that be inspired by the biblical Battle of Jericho?
May 26, 2010 at 8:51 am
zkharya
‘Israel has a missile named “Jericho”? Would that be inspired by the biblical Battle of Jericho?’
And the walls came tumblin’ down.
May 26, 2010 at 8:58 am
pretzelberg
@ Hawkeye
I was away for a few days. Sorry if the threads suffered in the absence of my erudite contributions.
McGreal clearly added “being available” and should if anything have put the words in square brackets. I admit I haven’t read the entire article – but isn’t McGreal’s addition there just for the sake of comprehension?
May 26, 2010 at 9:02 am
Hawkeye
@ pretzelberg
“I admit I haven’t read the entire article – but isn’t McGreal’s addition there just for the sake of comprehension?”
May I suggest you do first. I think that’ll answer your question.
May 26, 2010 at 9:36 am
Louise
In the past week there have been 7 comment-enabled articles about Israel on the Guardian’s website. All have sought to demonise the country.
Authors: Shabi; Gordon: Younge; Tisdall; Munayyer; Mansfield; and yesterday’s Editorial.
It’s gloves-off, Rustbucket. If that’s what you want, that’s what you’ll get. Starting with your advertisers.
May 26, 2010 at 10:10 am
Greensleeves
Pretzl but isn’t McGreal’s addition there just for the sake of comprehension?
How about if I add a word of two to your sentence – would it still be the same?
“but isn’t McGreal’s addition there just pretending to be for the sake of comprehension?”
May 26, 2010 at 10:15 am
Yohoho
Of course if this were not the Guardian, McGreal should have put the words in square brackets, pretzel, but we are not dealing here with an honest purveyor of opinion as opinion are we?
McGreal at best may not have the eye for detail that you have or, at worst (which I am very much more inclined to believe given his previous showing at the Graun) has lied and misrepresented deliberately.
McGreal never lets the honest facts get in the way of a good story or the opportunity to bash Israel.
The arrogance of the b*gger! Is he so out of touch with reality that he or the Graun did not realise that they would be found out?
He looks really to have overstretched himself this time.
I see a PCC complaint looming.
May 26, 2010 at 11:18 am
Toko LeMoko
I admit I haven’t read the entire article
plus ça change …
May 26, 2010 at 11:25 am
pretzelberg
Does this site have a policy about trolls like Toko?
May 26, 2010 at 11:33 am
peterthehungarian
Hi pretzel
Ask RichardHutton and Berchmans.
May 26, 2010 at 1:09 pm
JerusalemMite
Where is Berchmans?
Probably had a large movement and got buried under it.
May 26, 2010 at 1:44 pm
The Day In Israel: Wednesday May 26th, 2010 : Israellycool
[...] CiF Watch begs to differ. [...]
May 26, 2010 at 1:53 pm
richardhutton
@PetertheHungarian: “Ask RichardHutton and Berchmans”
I’m disappointed you feel that way, Peter. I admit that you, me and Berchmans didn’t make for the easiest love triangle; but I had hoped we could remain friends. And we did at least have fun while it lasted.
I don’t hold it against you Pete. I won’t pretend I enjoy people being boorish towards me, but who is it that is the intended sap of people like Jonathan/Hawkeye and his ‘anonymous guests’? Is it people like me who discredit their fabrications, and are at least straight with you; or is it people like you who they’re attempting to mislead and exploit? The website would continue without people like me taking an interest in it; it would disappear without you Pete. You have my best wishes, nonetheless, mind.
@Jonathan/Hawkeye:
“This is a guest post by a CiF Watch reader who prefers to remain anonymous and has performed a stunning forensic analysis of evidence adduced by McGreal”
And why does he or she prefer to remain anonymous? In order to avoid accountabilty presumably?
“This is the second page of a multi-page document. No inferences can be drawn from it without seeing the whole document”
Fair enough; but Chris McGreal’s article says the same thing: that the original document’s meaning had long been elliptical, but was revealed by those documents Polakow-Suransky unearthed. It is, after all entitled “The memos and minutes that confirm Israel’s nuclear stockpile: Documents reveal how then-defence minister Shimon Perez tried to sell South Africa’s apartheid government the bomb”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-documents
McGreal then notes: “This is the secret memo by South Africa’s military chief of staff, General RF Armstrong, asking for nukes on the Jericho missiles. It has been revealed before, but its context was not understood. We now know the memo was the direct result of a meeting between PW Botha and Shimon Peres, and the basis of Botha’s demand for nukes. This memo was uncovered by Peter Liberman and published in the Nonproliferation Review.”
I went through this yesterday, and I’m not going to repeat the same point. If you guys are comfortable with reformulating Akus’ misrepresentation then fair enough; but you can’t expect to be taken seriously.
@Margie: “Why does the phrase ”Jenin Massacre” come so strongly to my mind as a description of the way the Guardian operates?”
Because you spend too much time accessing right-wing websites. For an actual acount of how they tried to misinform people such as yourself, Margie, see:
http://richardhutton.wordpress.com/2010/04/28/1-6-%e2%80%98the-new-anti-semitism%e2%80%99-and-media-watch-groups-honest-reporting/
http://richardhutton.wordpress.com/2010/04/28/1-7-%e2%80%98the-new-anti-semitism%e2%80%99-and-media-watch-groups-the-anti-defamation-league/
You don’t have to read my essays, of course; but I do at least have the decency to attach my name to them; and however strongly I may disagree with you guys, I do at least talk to you like you’re worthy of my time.
Except Jonathan, of course. Speaking of whom:
@Hawkeye: “What do you have to say about McGreal making up the quote from Paragraph 10. Its there in black and white. I don’t think the author is making too much at all out of this.”
No, He/she/you (whoever the author really is) is instead fabricating material. You/they write:
“This is the original typed version of Paragraph 10 before the handwritten corrections:
10 “Minister Botha expressed interest in a limited number of unit of Chalet provide [sic] the correct payload could be provided, Minister Peres said that the correct payload was available in three sizes. Minister Botha expressed his appreciation and said that he would ask for advice.”
In McGreal’s actual article the section is as follows:
“The top secret minutes of the meeting record that: “Minister Botha expressed interest in a limited number of units of Chalet subject to the correct payload being available.” The document then records: “Minister Peres said the correct payload was available in three sizes. Minister Botha expressed his appreciation and said that he would ask for advice.” The “three sizes” are believed to refer to the conventional, chemical and nuclear weapons”.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons
McGreal’s text and that which he’s quoting are indicated respectively by the quotation marks. Even by your standards Jonathan/Hawkeye/anonymous that is a particularly dismal attempt to misrepresent what somebody has said. The document McGreal is referring to is the following:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2010/05/23/ISSA-minutes2.pdf
You were accurate up to the figure “10″, mind.
@Pretzelberg: I’m not sure which article you’re referring to. McGreal’s original article was “Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weaponsExclusive: Secret apartheid-era papers give first official evidence of Israeli nuclear weapons”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons
@zkharya:
McGreal notes re the memo: “In it, Armstrong writes: “In considering the merits of a weapon system such as the one being offered, certain assumptions have been made: a) That the missiles will be armed with nuclear warheads manufactured in RSA (Republic of South Africa) or acquired elsewhere.”
and then:
“The use of a euphemism, the “correct payload”, reflects Israeli sensitivity over the nuclear issue and would not have been used had it been referring to conventional weapons. It can also only have meant nuclear warheads as Armstrong’s memorandum makes clear South Africa was interested in the Jericho missiles solely as a means of delivering nuclear weapons.
In addition, the only payload the South Africans would have needed to obtain from Israel was nuclear. The South Africans were capable of putting together other warheads.”
See also:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2010/05/23/ISSA-minutes2.pdf
and note the part about the “6,000 km” model. What kind of missile has a range of c. 4500 miles? Nuclear ballistics.
@Foolmeonce: “I want to raise something else: Why is it really so wrong HAD Israel really try to sell nukes to RSA?”
Because it would have been a breach of international law; but that is not the issue McGreal was broaching. He was citing the documents because they prove that Israel possesses nuclear weapons – which it has previously refused to admit, and which has evidently been a series of lies. Technically, Israel’s possession of them is also illegal regarding the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; but the U.S. has helped to prevent Israel’s breaches of international law resulting in prosecution. It’s worth contrasting that attitude with Obama et al’s approach to Iran, of course:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/06/us-weighs-forcing-israel-to-disclose-nukes/
May 26, 2010 at 2:59 pm
Serendipity
richardhutton, we live in an age where people who speak out for Israel are discriminated against in their professions and work or otherwise harassed. You should know this. You may well take part in that harassment for all I know.
And as for, “…Is it people like me who discredit their fabrications, and are at least straight with you; or is it people like you who they’re attempting to mislead and exploit?…” well, that’s rich coming from a Guardianista who knows of McGreal’s past record and yet not a peep from you.
If you were “straight” with us, as you put it, you would begin by examining Chris McGreal’s agenda (see http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=6&x_article=1082 )and how it has influenced his reporting in the past as well as in this particular article. Since you haven’t then there’s a question mark as to whether you are being as “straight” as you would have us believe.
Do the documents McGreal cited really prove anything of the sort given his shoddy research and innate bias?
You’ve wasted your time. Again.
May 26, 2010 at 3:01 pm
Margie
@Margie: “Why does the phrase ”Jenin Massacre” come so strongly to my mind as a description of the way the Guardian operates?”
———
Your answer was wrong and flippant Richard Hutton. You have failed the easy test.
The correct answer is that the Jenin “Massacre” was in the same way as this, a lie. Then, as now, the Guardian accepted the explanation that it wanted rather than the truth of events. The Jenin Massacre was no massacre and this was no nuclear sale.
Study harder for your next test.