This is a guest post by AKUS
The Guardian has gone nuclear (“postal” may be more accurate) over the “revelation” that South Africa approached Israel in 1975 in an apparent effort to obtain nuclear technology. Unfortunately, its sources are tainted, as usual, in its rush to judgment once again.
The case the Guardian tries to build against Israel (in the hope of “demonstrating” that Israel is an apartheid state and a nuclear proliferator) is that Israel offered nuclear weapons technology to South Africa in 1975, during the period when the Apartheid regime was in power. It bases its claim primarily on a new book, “The Unspoken Alliance: Israel’s Secret Relationship With Apartheid South Africa”, by an American researcher – or a researcher at an American think-tank, at any rate – Sasha Polakow-Suransky.
However, there are massive flaws in the story the Guardian is trying to sell:
1. Listen to the following interview with Sasha Polakow-Suransky on Al-Jazeera. No matter how often the Al-Jazeera anchor tries to get him to say it, Sasha Polakow-Suransky will only say that South Africa may have approached Israel, but there is no document at all which actually states that Israel offered or agreed to provide nuclear weapons to South Africa in 1975. The closest he gets to claiming that Israel offered South Africa nuclear weapons is to say the documents show that “the South Africans perceived that there was a nuclear offer on the table” (at 1.02).
2. In a blog entry on the Guardian’s website, A responsible nuclear power? , Julian Borger provides the following which similarly rebuts the Guardian’s claims (my emphasis added):
Avner Cohen, the author of Israel and the Bomb, and the forthcoming The Worst-Kept Secret: Israel’s Bargain with the Bomb, has taken issue with the headline of the piece.
While there is no doubt (as the documents point out) that there was a SA probe to Israel for nuclear weapons, which stimulates a certain opaque Israeli response made by the Israeli Minister of Defense, Shimon Peres, there is no proof whatsoever that Israel ultimately officially OFFERED those weapons to SA. In fact, I know that Israel did not: Israel neither offered and passed along nuclear weapons (and materials) nor weapons designs to the South Africans. Whatever the SA discussed among themselves in memos, and regardless of what Minister Peres told them, Prime Minister Rabin and the people in charge of the Israeli nuclear program (Mr. Shaleheveth Freier) were never willing to pass along weapons components and/or designs to the SA. Nothing like that ever formally offered to SA, regardless of Peres’ reference to the “correct warhead.” At the end of the day South Africa did not ask and Israel did not offer the “correct payloads.”. Israel did behave as a responsible nuclear state.
3. Pik Botha, former Foreign Minister of South Africa and someone closely connected to the South African Atomic Energy Board, responded to the Guardian claims that Israel offered nuclear weapons to South Africa with this:
“I doubt it very much. I doubt whether such an offer was ever made. I think I would have known about it.”
4. One of the documents provided by the Guardian as “proof” includes the following:
Note that it clearly states “That the missiles will be armed with nuclear warheads manufactured in the RSA or acquired elsewhere” and there is no mention whatsoever of Israel. The document is headed “ISRAEL AND THE SOUTH AFRICAN BOMB” with no reference to the source other than that it is a “Declassified memo from General RF Armstrong” who was, according to Chris McGreal, “South Africa’s military chief of staff”.
5. As even the Guardian has had to admit in an amendment to the initial Chris McGreal article Shimon Peres has completely denied the story. His denial has belatedly been published by the Guardian – Israeli president denies offering nuclear weapons to apartheid South Africa – even though, typically, the Guardian sub-head editor cannot resist attempting to cast doubts on Peres’ veracity rather than letting the readers judge for themselves – “Shimon Peres dismisses claims relating to secret files but US researcher says denials are disingenuous” despite the fact that both Sasha Polakow-Suransky and Avner Cohen back up Peres’ assertion, as does the memo referenced above:
Israel‘s president, Shimon Peres, today robustly denied revelations in the Guardian and a new book that he offered to sell nuclear weapons to apartheid South Africa when he was defence minister in the 1970s.
His office said “there exists no basis in reality” for claims based on declassified secret South African documents that he offered nuclear warheads for sale with ballistic missiles to the apartheid regime in 1975. “Israel has never negotiated the exchange of nuclear weapons with South Africa. There exists no Israeli document or Israeli signature on a document that such negotiations took place,” it said.
Neither Polakow-Suransky nor the Guardian has provided such a document, and can do nothing better than claiming that “if you connect the dots…” – you come to whatever conclusion you would like.
6. Another piece of “evidence” offered by Chris McGreal is the “account” by a traitor to the then regime spying for the USSR who first, apparently, made the hardly-reliable claim upon his release from prison after the end of apartheid that:
“there was an agreement between Israel and South Africa called Chalet which involved an offer by the Jewish state to arm eight Jericho missiles with “special warheads”. Gerhardt said these were atomic bombs. But until now there has been no documentary evidence of the offer”.
But, in fact, there is no such documentary evidence of the offer to this day, as Sasha Polakow-Suransky himself, the purveyor of the rumor or theory had to admit on Al Jazeera.
7. Not one of the documents offered by the Guardian actually mentions nuclear weapons in any context that an Israeli representative signed. The most pathetic of the examples of “proof” is in the collection of The memos and minutes that confirm Israel’s nuclear stockpile assembled by Chris McGreal. In one such document, minutes from a meeting indicated that “Minister Peres said that the correct payload was available in three sizes” referring apparently to the Jericho missile codenamed “Chalet”. From this McGreal inferred that the “three sizes” referred to conventional, chemical and nuclear rather than the more logical inference of three different weights (the Jericho I has been estimated to carry a payload of 450-650 kg and the Jericho II 750-1000 kg; the size of the payload influencing the distance the missile would travel). In the video of Polakow-Suransky above, he even has to admit that Peres’s reference to “three sizes” is “a bit ambiguous and there are various different interpretations” (at 1.46). In another document, a Letter from Shimon Peres, 11/11/1974, Peres’s “confirmation” is nothing more than a polite diplomatic letter thanking a Dr. Rhoodie, apparently a South African PR flack, for his assistance in making Peres’ trip to South Africa successful and offering to do the same for him when he next visited Israel.
8. The Guardian even roped in Gary Younge to write an article that rivals the worst in quality, innuendo, and false accusations that CiF is capable of presenting that tries to defend Richard Goldstone by claiming that “[a]s we learn elsewhere in the Guardian today, it even offered to sell the South African regime nuclear weapons”.
In fact, even the Guardian has now has to skirt around that claim. Younge goes even further into the realms of hypocrisy by citing a completely false statement from Sasha Polakow-Suransky:
“Throughout the 70s and 80s Israel had a deep, intimate and lucrative relationship with South Africa,” explains Sasha Polakow-Suransky, author of The Unspoken Alliance: Israel’s Secret Relationship With Apartheid South Africa. “Israel’s arms supplies helped to prolong the apartheid regime’s rule and to survive international sanctions.” No criticism of Goldstone’s complicity from representatives of the Israeli state can be taken seriously that does not acknowledge and condemn Israel’s even greater support of the self-same system.
Anyone with the slightest knowledge of South African armaments knows that most of its weapons came from Britain, France and Belgium and were in service at the time of these discussions – for example, the South African Airforce at the time used English Electric Canberra bombers (Period of Service: 1963 – 1991), British Hawker Sidderley Buccaneers (Period of Service: 1965 – 199) and French Dassault-Breguet Mirage fighters (Period of Service: 1965 – 1986) and the army used Belgian FN rifles and machine guns and British-made Alvis Saracen “88″ Prototype used extensively to suppress riots in the townships – yet neither Younge nor the Guardian claims that these massive amounts of weaponry, dwarfing anything Israel may have provided, imply that Britain, France and Belgium are or were apartheid states.
9. Perhaps most significant if not obvious of all: there is no evidence that Israel ever sold Jericho missiles to South Africa or that Israel sold nuclear weapons to South Africa (South Africa ended up developing them themselves).
Finally, there are two additional points worth noting regarding the Guardian’s endless desire to blacken Israel’s name at every opportunity.
First, Chris McGreal is now supposed to be the Guardian’s Washington correspondent, but like all good Guardianistas cannot let go of his hatred of Israel. Like a mongrel returning to a bone he has to keep on gnawing at Israel. Even when posted into the capital of the most powerful country in the world, where world affairs such as the global economy might, one would think, pique his interest, his concern is trying to drag up dirt on Israel.
Secondly, the Guardian, as it does so frequently, rushes to judgment with a story before it checks the most basic facts, and lavishes on it exaggerations, innuendo, and false claims. Belatedly, it now has to grudgingly print rebuttals by Peres and Avner Cohen, after regurgitating someone else’s news on CiF, as McGreal has done with Polakow-Suransky’s book.







124 comments
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May 25, 2010 at 10:43 am
JerusalemMite
Jonathan Hoffman
One star – must be ibrows!
Since Berchmans seems to have been buried under his own voluminous excrement and cannot communicate.
May 25, 2010 at 10:48 am
richardhutton
Not really, of course, Akus.
The documentary evidence provided by The Guardian is ‘The memos and minutes that confirm Israel’s nuclear stockpile’:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-documents
which comprises ‘Declassified memo from General RF Armstrong’; ‘Minutes of third ISSA meeting, 30/6/1975′; ‘Minutes from further ISSA meeting’;
‘Israel-South Africa agreement’; and ‘Letter from Shimon Peres, 11/11/1974′
all of which provide the background context proving that Israel and South Africa discussed nuclear transferance, and therefore that Israel possesses nuclear weapons.
the following document, for example is signed by Botha and Shimon Peres:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2010/05/23/Israel-SAagreement.pdf
the following makes collaboration even more transparent:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2010/05/23/ISSA-minutes2.pdf
For instance “Minister Peres said that the correct payload was available in three sizes. Minister Botha expressed his appreciation and said that he would ask for advice”.
The following paragraph then states that South Africa had requested the “6,000 KM model”. The document goes on to mention other military equipment, such as tanks and nightvision glasses.
The other documents are much the same and prove that Peres and Botha were engaged in a series of meetings, and reveal that South Africa attempted to acquire nuclear weapons from Israel. If Israel did not possess them, South Africa would not have viewed Israel as a source. As McGreal’s article notes:
“the memo was the direct result of a meeting between PW Botha and Shimon Peres, and the basis of Botha’s demand for nukes. This memo was uncovered by Peter Liberman and published in the Nonproliferation Review.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-documents
The problem – of course – is that Israel broke international law to develop nuclear weapons, and has consistently refused to admit posession. Personally, I think it would be far more apt if you criticised all countries’ possession of nuclear weapons, rather than attempting to misinform people about Israel’s, but it’s your article Akus.
“First, Chris McGreal is now supposed to be the Guardian’s Washington correspondent, but like all good Guardianistas cannot let go of his hatred of Israel. Like a mongrel returning to a bone he has to keep on gnawing at Israel. Even when posted into the capital of the most powerful country in the world, where world affairs such as the global economy might, one would think, pique his interest, his concern is trying to drag up dirt on Israel”
McGreal was The Guardian’s middle east correspondent for a lengthy period of time; and he has written c. 12 articles on America in the last three weeeks: http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/chrismcgreal
It makes perfect sense that a veteran reporter would write an article on the matter; and his article lacks your vindictive ire, Akus. Who’s kidding who with the dog and bone metaphor here? This site is called ‘CIFWatch’ and largely consists of attacking The Guardian on a daily basis because you don’t like its opinions; or in Jonathan’s case attemting to bully people – and failing repeatedly, mind.
“Secondly, the Guardian, as it does so frequently, rushes to judgment with a story before it checks the most basic facts, and lavishes on it exaggerations, innuendo, and false claims”.
Well it didn’t. It evidently waited a long time for the documentary evidence to come to light – it would have broken the story before otherwise.
“Belatedly, it now has to grudgingly print rebuttals by Peres and Avner Cohen”
Peres’ claims were published on the 24th May, which by my reckoning is the following day :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/24/israel-shimon-peres-nuclear-weapons
And his claims do not appear to be sincere given how frequently his name appears in the relevant documents. More to the point, the Guardian is not the Jewish Chronicle: it doesn’t get in touch with Israeli officials asking then for their responses to events which haven’t occurred yet.
And Cohen did not ‘rebutt’ the charges with any particular regard to accuracy either. Julian Borger’s article quotes him:
“While there is no doubt (as the documents point out) that there was a SA probe to Israel for nuclear weapons, which stimulates a certain opaque Israeli response made by the Israeli Minister of Defense, Shimon Peres, there is no proof whatsoever that Israel ultimately officially OFFERED those weapons to SA. In fact, I know that Israel did not: Israel neither offered and passed along nuclear weapons (and materials) nor weapons designs to the South Africans. Whatever the SA discussed among themselves in memos, and regardless of what Minister Peres told them, Prime Minister Rabin and the people in charge of the Israeli nuclear program (Mr. Shaleheveth Freier) were never willing to pass along weapons components and/or designs to the SA. Nothing like that ever formally offered to SA, regardless of Peres’ reference to the “correct warhead.” At the end of the day South Africa did not ask and Israel did not offer the “correct payloads.”. Israel did behave as a responsible nuclear state”.
However, as Borger aptly notes:
“Chris points out in his piece that it was not clear whether Rabin would have signed off the deal, but it seems to me if you have the defence minister telling PW Botha that “the correct payload was available in three sizes” that amounts to an informal offer, a preliminary offer, whether or not it was finally consummated as “an official offer’. We are talking about a defence minister here, not some deniable intermediary. If I walked to buy a car from a company salesman and was told it was “available in three sizes”, I would take it that it was for sale”.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/julian-borger-global-security-blog/2010/may/24/israel-nuclear-southafrica
I don’t see how Borger’s logic can be faulted; and Cohen’s complaint still amounts to acknowledgement that Israel possesses nuclear weapons. You evidently don’t have a case here, Akus.
@Margie: “There’s a good article in the Jpost about this matter ”
yes, which reveals the standards The Jerusalem Post holds itself to, and little else.
@JoeMills: “The event demonstrated how Jews have always been at the forefront against any form of racial discrimination, refuting the accusations that Israel is an apartheid state.”
It doesn’t – firstly ‘Jews’ have rarely if ever been at the forefront of opposition to racism: liberals have – and their ranks include a number of Jews; some secular, some religious. The latter tend to be decried as ‘self hating’ on threads such as this, which is a racist point in its own right.
Secondly, Israel proper is rarely if ever called an apartheid state by responsible commentators – it is the polity within the West Bank which is likened adeptly to Apartheid South Africa’s system of segregation. The difference being that in South Africa race was the point of segregation; in the occupied territories it’s nationality, and to a lesser degree religion (Israeli non-Jews are not permitted inhabitants of the settlements to my knowledge). Moreover, the racism among Ashekenazim towards Mizrahim and Arab Jews within Israel makes a nonsense of your point, should it actually be taken seriously. Barry Goldwater’s name adds another nail; and the racism on these pages towards Arabs and Muslims puts the matter to bed.
May 25, 2010 at 11:03 am
JerusalemMite
RH – the following document, for example is signed by Botha and Shimon Peres:
Nobody is denying agreements with the Apartheid South African regime. What is being denied is that there was any agreement to sell nuclear technology OR weapons to the South African government.
The whole hullabaloo is to try to tar Israel with irresponsible behavior with its nuclear knowhow and therefor compare it to Iran’s Mad Mullahs.
None of the documents give any facts about any nuclear anything.
It is all in the minds of the Hate Israel groupies of which you are one.
You might consider why the ANC government representative, blacked out some of then text? The ANC is very anti Israel and has nothing to hide.
Does it?
May 25, 2010 at 11:08 am
Martynbutnotineurope
AKUS
Fine article , who knows what’s happened to the Guardian
May 25, 2010 at 11:20 am
Germolene
Hutton poor thing tries to bridge the gap but hasn’t got the razzle-dazzle.
May 25, 2010 at 11:20 am
Bluesea
CIF is nothing really in terms of real power… three or four hundred yapping third worlders along with a few carrot tops collecting welfare checks every month. The Guardian, on the other hand, is a bigger problem given its wider reach.
Somewhere along the way, they made a conscious decision to go after Israel. Therefore, nothing short of putting the Guardian out of business will suffice. This is war and in war you kill the enemy before the enemy kills you.
I realize my words may sound excessively bellicose. So what? I loathe the bastards with every fiber of my being. That’s all.
May 25, 2010 at 11:25 am
Bluesea
” richardhutton The problem – of course – is that Israel broke international law to develop nuclear weapons”
You’re 100% wrong again. Israel hasn’t adhered to the NPT. Therefore, Israel is in full compliance with international law.
Blink once for no and twice for yes. Can you do that?
May 25, 2010 at 11:27 am
Bluesea
Akus, thanks a lot my friend.
May 25, 2010 at 11:37 am
Geoff
Hutton
By the same token India and Pakistan broke international law.
May 25, 2010 at 11:37 am
Bluesea
On a broader note, nearly all top notch scientists who worked on nuclear weapons during WWII were Jews. Enrico Fermi wasn’t Jewish but his wife was. Simply put, to ask the Jewish state to give up its [ alleged] nuclear arsenal would be like asking England, where soccer was born to give up the EPL.
May 25, 2010 at 11:50 am
jane schlitz
RH…..Israel has broken international law?…. “the” international law?….inconsistently applied and rarely enforced…..it sucks here on planet Earth; don’t it?
May 25, 2010 at 12:25 pm
Cynic
Some comments mention “blacked out” text in the documents that the ANC made available; maybe those sections contradicted the points those exposing this material were trying to make?
May 25, 2010 at 12:32 pm
Louise
Bluesea: “Therefore, nothing short of putting the Guardian out of business will suffice.”
Go for the advertisers. They are already leaving.
May 25, 2010 at 12:44 pm
JerusalemMite
Cynic
Some comments mention “blacked out” text in the documents that the ANC made available; maybe those sections contradicted the points those exposing this material were trying to make?
It is indeed very suspicious that the pious Guardian has made no speculations as to the material that they claim that the South African censor was trying to hide.
They may very well be content that clearly leads to a very different measured conclusion than that concocted by The Guardian.
The more I think about it the more my suspicions are rising.
May 25, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Bluesea
Louise,
Back in March, I called up Mutual of Omaha and asked them not to place adverts with the Guardian anymore. It worked.
May 25, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Serendipity
Geoff @ 11.37, very true but they are not Israel. richardhutton is therefore not interested in them, neither is he interested in the potential nuclear threat posed by the Iranian Ahmedinajad.
I wonder who is most trustworthy – a leader who believes that he is the forerunner of the twelfth imam and that the only way to redemption is to take his people to hell in a massive fireball , or Israel, which knows that if it were to use its alleged nuclear weaponry it would be a pyrrhic victory?
In a visit to group of Ayatollahs in Qom after returning from his 2005 speech to the UN General Assembly, Ahmedinejad stated he had “felt a halo over his head” during his speech and that a hidden presence had mesmerized the unblinking audience of foreign leaders, foreign ministers, and ambassadors. According to at least one source (Hooman Majd), this was offensive to the conservative religious leaders because an ordinary man cannot presume a special closeness to God or any of the Imams, nor can he imply the presence of the Mahdi.
This really does come down to a war between darkness and light. One side holds open its options for and teaches its children to want peace; whereas to the other lives are disposable commodities and it brainwashes its children into believing that killing themselves among Jews should be the apotheosis of their existence.
May 25, 2010 at 12:50 pm
Serendipity
Louise, can you put out chapter and verse information here about how best to approach the Guardian’s advertisers?
Like Bluesea I loathe the Guardian and all that it has become. I would like to see it sink without trace.
Many thanks.
May 25, 2010 at 12:54 pm
JerusalemMite
Bluesea
Back in March, I called up Mutual of Omaha and asked them not to place adverts with the Guardian anymore. It worked.
The BBC places a lot of advertisements for staff at The Guardian.
The new government my be reducing the BBCs budget very soon so that will curtail more of The Guardian’s income.
I feel that subscribers should be informed about the Guardians misrepresentations and omissions though. I cannot believe that so many people eat the garbage that the Guardian serves up under the heading of ‘NEWS’.
Mind Fuck is the correct description.
May 25, 2010 at 12:55 pm
HairShirt
I’d second that request, Louise.
Perhaps a list of regular advertisers in the Guardian?
It’d be time consuming, I appreciate, but well worth it.
May 25, 2010 at 1:03 pm
Louise
Just pick an advertiser and write to their Chairman or CEO, pointing out they are funding racism. Tell them to read CiFWatch.
Suggest this might have adverse consequences for their business.
Today’s advertisers are: DFS; Pringles; Dolce and Gabbana; Suzuki; Hyundai; Hitachi; Duracell; Grazia; Three.co.uk; Victim Support; BA; Old Vic; Centrepoint;Open University; RosettaStone; Emirates; ebookers.
And lots of academic institutions (for education jobs).
Guardian Media is already losing money. Hopefully we can put them out of business.
May 25, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Bluesea
JerusalemMite,
The Beeb’s current business model isn’t structurally sustainable in the long run. Everybody knows that. In any case, Jeremy Bowen and Orla Guerin should have been booted out like eons ago.
May 25, 2010 at 1:22 pm
Bluesea
Serendipity,
They hate our guts. They hate the Jewish state and everything Israel stands for. Period. So what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
May 25, 2010 at 1:26 pm
Bluesea
Dolce and Gabbana… I’ll take this one, Louise, not much we can do about Fly Emirates…for obvious reasons.
May 25, 2010 at 1:37 pm
zkharya
‘The problem – of course – is that Israel broke international law to develop nuclear weapons’
What spectacularly ignorant (not to say bigoted) rot!
May 25, 2010 at 1:42 pm
Toko LeMoko
Why has the Guardian posted only individual pages of the documents? It would have been just as easy to scan the entirety of the documents into a pdf.
What’s the Guardian hiding?
May 25, 2010 at 1:44 pm
Bluesea
Registrant Name: DOLCE & GABBANA S.R.L.
Contact: Dolce & Gabbana S.r.l.
Registrant Address: Via S.Cecilia 7
Registrant City: Milano
Registrant Postal Code: 20122
Administrative Contact Email:
Administrative Contact Tel: +39 027 7427442
Administrative Contact Fax: +39 027 7427860
Technical Contact Organizati
http://www.dolcegabbana.it/sitemap/
May 25, 2010 at 2:42 pm
Louise
I’ll take DFS
May 25, 2010 at 2:43 pm
magnificent
magnificent website. genuinely hilarious. up there with creationist blogs. keep it up!
May 25, 2010 at 2:51 pm
AnthonyP
I just sent this email to Hyundai, please do likewise:
Dear Sir/Madam
I notice that you advertise in The Guardian
http://cifwatch.com/
Are you aware that The Guardian’s blog,”Comment Is Free”, has a long history of encouraging racism against Jews, or even carrying articles which are prejudicial to Jews? (see above link).
http://cifwatch.com/2010/05/25/psychedelic-mushroom-clouds-at-the-guardian/
Here is a recent example.
Because of this there is a movement among your customers to turn away from the products of advertisers in the Guardian. I do hope you are able to take your advertising somewhere else. This will put pressure on the Guardian to deal with the problem and will also boost your profits.
May 25, 2010 at 3:30 pm
Tom Wonacott
An exceptionally thorough job AKUS
I’ve only read a couple of McGreal’s articles, but he seems incapable of writing a story without injecting his own hatred of Israel. Even the slightest hint of Israel providing nuclear technology is presented as fact by the Guardian, but is anyone really surprised?
In today’s editorial in the Guardian, rather than focusing on the Iranian nuclear program, the Guardian chooses to justify Iran’s pursuit of nuclear weapons because Israel has them as if Iran seeks nuclear weapons because its an issue of fairness. The failure of diplomacy to achieve the desired results in Iran is, of course, blamed on Israel. In truth, Iran would pursue nuclear weapons even if the US and Israel had never developed the technology. Its that simple. Every effort is made by the Guardian to put Israel in a bad light. In the GWV, most of the problems in the modern world are due to Israel.
May 25, 2010 at 5:00 pm
pretzelberg
Look what happens when I go away for 5 days: The Guardian comes up with an “Israel and S. Africa had military ties shocker!”
To be fair to the G., actual documentation (especially on the nuclear front) would be newsworthy.
But is it really that revealing?
From the McGreal article:
The documents, uncovered by an American academic, Sasha Polakow-Suransky, in research for a book on the close relationship between the two countries, provide evidence that Israel has nuclear weapons
SA asks for nuclear warheads, and Israel responds to the positive – but never delivers. So what “evidence” is that?
On the same issue: the G. editorial I’ve just seen about Israel coming clean on its nuclear capability is a rarity in that I agree with it.
That beside: Israel collaborating with SA on the nuclear/military front does not mean that the former condoned the latter’s apatheid policy.
May 25, 2010 at 5:09 pm
modernityblog
Quite frankly, I’m just waiting for the Guardian headline “Israelis cause the common cold” or some such nonsense.
No doubt, Richard Hutton would dredge up mountains of spurious “evidence” to prove that the Israelis were culpable for such a medical ailment.
I suppose it’s only a matter of time before the Israelis get the blame for Climate Change and baldness, or halitosis in Western societies?
May 25, 2010 at 5:33 pm
Toko LeMoko
One has to wonder whether the Guardian is acting as a conscious collaborator with the Iranian regime, with the objective of neutralising the Israel nuclear capability while allowing Iran’s to develop apace.
That such a scenario makes a second Holocaust likely, may make it more, not less, attractive to the Guardian.
May 25, 2010 at 5:34 pm
zkharya
POI. The rocket concerned was the Jericho 1, which only entered service in 1973.
The section in photostat of the document referring to ‘correct payload…three sizes’ is actually scrawled out, as though someone were indicating afterwards that it was a mistake:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2010/05/23/ISSA-minutes2.pdf
One may note that the document is littered with such self evident corrections.
May 25, 2010 at 5:38 pm
zkharya
No mention of such post typum corrections by McGreal. Might spoil his story, and despoil him of the chance to blacken Israel.
May 25, 2010 at 5:40 pm
pretzelberg
@ Tom Wonacott
Don’t you think Israel should come clean on the nukes issue? Especially as a) it’s been pushing for pressure on Iran and b) Liebermann has been waxing lyrical about nuking Gaza?
In the GWV, most of the problems in the modern world are due to Israel.
Oh, come on. That is absolute nonsense. And to think I considered you a reasonable and intelligent poster.
May 25, 2010 at 5:45 pm
zkharya
Also the stipulation that Chalet be supplied only “provided the correct payload be provided” is also crossed out.
Again, no mention of this in McGreal. One recalls the issue of Benny Morris and Ben Gurion’s memoirs.
May 25, 2010 at 6:00 pm
pretzelberg
@ Toko LeMoko
Your entire post from 5:33 pm is ridiculous.
Try getting a broader picture on events.
May 25, 2010 at 6:04 pm
zkharya
This is what Polakow claims that Peres
‘‘formally offered to sell South Africa some of the nuclear-capable Jericho missiles in its arsenal’
Note ‘nuclear capable’, not ‘nuclear warheads/payloads for’.
May 25, 2010 at 6:14 pm
pretzelberg
modernityblog
I’m just waiting for the Guardian headline “Israelis cause the common cold” … I suppose it’s only a matter of time before the Israelis get the blame for Climate Change and baldness, or halitosis in Western societies?
Silly – but I suppose what counts here as witty. The threshold for humour among posters here is depressingly low.
Of course modernityblog’s post is OTT – and facile. Congrats to all the nuts.
May 25, 2010 at 6:44 pm
sababa
AKUS, formidable job! The frenzy at the Guardian/Cif about this issue is truly revealing; seems that as far as they are concerned, this is the most exciting Ph.D. history dissertation ever.
Of course, there is a long list of recently published books that don’t interest them at all — e.g. Paul Berman’s recent one (Flight of the Intellectuals) may be too close to home to be interesting, right? And then, given their Israel-fixation, one could have expected that they would give a whole lot of attention to Robin Shepherd’s book. Whatever could be the reason for their very selective interest in new books???
I’m sure pretzelberg will come up with something.
May 25, 2010 at 6:51 pm
pretzelberg
sababa
I’m sure pretzelberg will come up with something.
Perhaps you’re new to this site. Scroll up this very page to see how narrow-minded and prematurely judgemental you are.
Feel silly? You should do.
Just another superficial poster on this site.
May 25, 2010 at 7:17 pm
spoton
Cif is starting to resemble an asylum for lefty nutters,whose posts are getting even more desperate,their arguments are pathetic,with the usual idiotic regurgitated tripe.
Neve Gordan’s latest convulsive post is evidence to the decline of CiF
May 25, 2010 at 7:34 pm
Yohoho
spoton, it always WAS an asylum for lefty nutters.
May 25, 2010 at 7:36 pm
spoton
Sasha Polakov-Suransky,wouldn’t know his missiles from his condoms.
Peres did not offer SA missiles in three different sizes,what he did offer SA were condoms in different flavors,sizes,and colors.
Peres should also offer Alan Rusbridger and the rest of the Guardian clan condoms that are large enough to wear on their schmock heads.
May 25, 2010 at 7:44 pm
Toko LeMoko
But Pretzel, you are a closet anti-Semite and should have no credibility on a Jewish site.
You gave clear evidence of this the other day:
- you have zero knowledge of Shavuot, yet jump to condemn a CiFWatch thread without even bothering to educate yurself
- a number better informed than you (including the expert Bataween) documented in fair detail the long history of Arab anti-Semitism and pro-Nazism; you dismissed it in barely a sentence as just anti-colonialism
- Bataween also documented the clear gulf and oppositional stance between Obama and the majority of the world’s Mizrahis – yet you dismissed that, too, in barely a sentence
- you give every impression of one completely insensitive to Jewish history and/or fears, particuarly those of the Jews of the Mideast.
You thus make clear quite a remarkable double-standard with respect to the Jews; in your mind, reams of evidence of outright pro-Nazi or neo-Nazi Arab agitation over much of a century, do not qualify as anti-Semitism, while a single word “European” by a CiFWatch poster qualifies as racism. Your hypocritical double standard is in itself anti-Semitic.
Oh, by the way, both the Economist and the author Robin Shepherd also find obvious the European obsession with, and hatred of Israel:
Shepherd: A State Beyond the Pale: Europe’s Problem With Israel
Economist: Europe and the Middle East: To Israel with hate and guilt
Will you tell us that both Shepherd and the Economist are racist?
May 25, 2010 at 7:54 pm
AKUS
richardhutton – if you are among those whose claim that israel has nuclear weaopons (there are those who claim to know exactly how many, in addition) and if you assume that in 1975 israel had nuclear weapons, then this is all old news.
So why is the Guardian “revealing” 35 year old news, largely in the guise of a book review of a book investigating this old information?
Partly, of course, to divert attention form the real issue of Iran. But what is really going on here is an attempt by the Guardian to further the “Israel is an Apartheid state – look how they collaborated with South Africa in 1975″.
The problem with that, apart from the fact that Israel is not an apartheid state, is that at in the 1975 time frame the commercial and military connections with South Africa of Britain, notably, but also the US, France and Belgium to name a few, was far greater, and no-one has ever, to my knowledge, tried to claim that they are apartheid states for that reason.
Israel is the only country the Guardian and the mob of CiFers try to accuse of guilt by association.
May 25, 2010 at 7:57 pm
AKUS
Richard Hutton – you’ve been reading too much Rachel Shabi:
“Moreover, the racism among Ashekenazim towards Mizrahim and Arab Jews within Israel makes a nonsense of your point, should it actually be taken seriously.”
Turn on your speakers, listen to this, and follow the English subtitles.
http://blogs.jta.org/telegraph/article/2010/05/11/2394761/im-a-jew
May 25, 2010 at 8:01 pm
Louise
Melanie Phillips is calling AKUS’s piece a ‘magisterial demolition’. Which it is.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/6025059/the-nuclear-smear-option.thtml#comments
May 25, 2010 at 8:23 pm
Toko LeMoko
RichardHutton
Moreover, the racism among Ashekenazim towards Mizrahim and Arab Jews within Israel makes a nonsense of your point, should it actually be taken seriously.
These Israel-hating propagandists fail to realise they display their ignorance with every word they write:
1. There are no “Arab Jews”. Arabs and Jews are two different Semitic ethnicities, clearly distinguished by identity, history, values, genetics, religion, and language.
2. Ashkenazi-Mizrahi differences have not been a major problem for almost a quarter-century; Israel integrated the Mizrahim as it did the Ethiopians and Russians – as the Arab countries completely fail to do for their “Palestinian brothers” (click here).
3. The Mizrahim, having been subjugated for 14 centuries under the Arabs, are among the strongest supporters of the Likud’s hawkish stance.