This is a guest post by Margie in Tel Aviv
There was panic in the ranks of the Bigots’ Brigade when Seth Freedman attempted to give his approval to a scheme backed by Israeli authorities in an article last month entitled “Building a peaceful future“. They read the words over and over and scrambled to find something derogatory to say. It was notable that even the lickiest lick-spittles didn’t come up with the usual phrases of adoration that we are used to read.
There was no, ‘Well done, sir.” No. “Brilliant article, Seth.” How disappointed he must have been to be deserted by his usual claque. The search for something to say was something to behold however.
What was he talking about? The scheme itself is a dual solution to housing and social problems, attempting to build a neighborhood in which both Jews and Arabs can live together and learn eventually to understand each other. The usual way that things are done in the Middle East is for people to keep to themselves and to live in homogeneous neighborhoods. A practised eye can spot an Arab village in Israel by the look of the terrain – imposing houses, much larger than those the Israeli Jews live in and characterised by the unusual town-planning. Streets go round houses in Arab towns. In Jewish towns houses are built side by side along a preplanned roadway. You can distinguish between a Christian Arab and Moslem Arab area by the presence or absence of minarets. It is unusual for Moslems and Christians to live side by side.
There is a great deal of resistance by the Arab communities to having Jews live within their towns. A proposal to build housing for Jews in the centre of Israel in Jaffa in a suburb called Ajami is bitterly opposed by the Arab residents who see it as a ‘settlement’. Whatever the political motives it shows the determination of the Arabs to keep themselves separate.
This comment by the acrobatic MacEasy obviously refers to Ajami which he imagines must perforce include evicting ‘Palestinians’ (actually, Israeli Arabs living in the centre of Israel) from their own homes. While supporting Apartheid principles of keeping the Jews and Moslems separate, he manages to accuse the Israelis of doing just that. Not easy, despite the name he chooses for himself.
8 Feb 2010, 12:46PM
It is a small but important step. Visionary Israelis might see a model for the future state in such places. Jaffa, however, illustrates the iniquity of the Israeli discrimination against Palestinians living in their own homes. Amidar, the State housing authority has a policy of ‘Judaisation’ which uses racist laws to evict Palestinians from their own homes under legal pretexts (like declaring their homes ‘state property’). It also has an agenda to ensure Jewish majorities everywhere (Jews, of course, are exempt from the laws pertaining to Palestinian rights of residence). Until such apartheid style discrimination is abolished by enlightened Israelis (of which there is no sign), the hope of mixed cities where citizens have equal rights, a precondition of peace and security, will remain a forlorn hope.
A comment by Jubilation1 attempts to set the picture straight for those who don’t understand the local sociological structure, which seems to include Seth.
8 Feb 2010, 12:26PM
Seth is surprised that all cities are not like London. Israel has people of all races and colours living together however few Arab villages will allow Jews to buy land or build a house among them? You have to go to court to get permission and then it’s generally not granted.
However in Tel Aviv itself I’ve had Arab neighbours. This is not very usual but it is certainly done more often than Seth, living in his tight little circle seems to be aware of.
Grahamew just hates being put straight and objects violently to any information not given by those he personally approves of.
8 Feb 2010, 12:44PM
Jubilation1 again demonstrating that CifWatch never sleeps.
No debate is possible. That is their aim.
A poster going by the name “compaid” weighed in early with one of those prepaid one size fits all views that those who don’t bother to read the article or think what it might be about adopt for all occasions when they see the word ‘Israel’. Bulldozing, Gaza strip, hatred, all is grist to his mill whether or not they are relevant. All he seems to want to do is to express his bile.
8 Feb 2010, 12:35PM
What a winging lot the Jews are, forever going on about the way they are badly treated by the world. Buldozing houses does not create lasting peace. They are almost becoming intolerable, its about time the USA stood up and told them that the parties over unless they stop doing this and finally sort out their issues. They are a nation stuck in the past full of hatred. The way they starve the gaza strip is a warcrime. But does the UN do anything about it. They have crap governments, and live in the past. Yes people dont like you but its not a Jewish thing its your actions. Lets help them finish their Bl..dy concrete wall and lock them in then see how they feel.
An apt comment put him straight before they both got deleted.
8 Feb 2010, 12:39PM
@compaid
What a winging lot the Jews are
anti-semitism does not help the Palestinian cause
The prolific Sorcey, whose not-very-valuable views appear on most Israeli-Palestinian threads, seems to have difficulty in distinguishing between Israeli Arabs and Palestinians. To him they’re just all in the same stew-pot. He’s not quite aware of the fact that Israeli Arabs have never lacked equal rights and is fruitlessly campaigning for something that already exists
8 Feb 2010, 1:35PM
This mixed development is a great idea, but not for all the reasons Seth states. The two-state solution is well and truly dead. There’s no chance of Israeli or Israelis stopping the colonisation or discrimination in the West Bank. A one-state solution, where Arabs and Jews have equal rights and live in close proximity at neighbours (no bantustans) is the way forward.
Grammar is discarded by theyislying, who feels that Israel is not Jewish or correct enough, as is capitalisation, punctuation and any connection to the article or fact itself – quite feat I thought.
8 Feb 2010, 1:30PM
all we need is zionist israel to connect with its religious roots of what netanyahu calls the jewish israeli state .
maybe then with proper regard to jewish religious teaching that has regard for morality and ethics israel might just might seek to resolve its internal struggle before seeking a new accord with its non jewish citizens .
its not just about interaction but about the extremist ideology of some in the european settler state.
8 Feb 2010, 1:37PM
Likewise, Jewish residents in Jaffa find out that not all Arabs
no such thing as jewish arabs? – or arabs who are jews? are all jews non arabs?
this distinction of arab vs jewish underlines the attitude that some people have regarding israel and its people. whats more worrying is that its an automatic thought response.
maybe this us and them within the jewish mindset should be laid to rest. what some of the jewish population need to acknowledge is their arab heritage and their arab ethnicity.
Continuing the theme of not relating to the object of the exercise, where the cognitive dissonance had become just too uncomfortable to bear, the subject was changed and the comment deleted – surprisingly BrianWhit didn’t respond, as he has been known to do when it is to his advantage or to that of CiF in general.
8 Feb 2010, 1:54PM
Gareth100: re the “Alderman affair” see last Friday’s Jewish Chronicle:
http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/columnists/26764/comment-not-quite-free
I understand CiF has demanded a right of reply. Does anyone know if this has been granted?
It is all too much for the confused gazagirl who has found her way back to the threads but suffered some measure of concussion along the way.
8 Feb 2010, 2:03PM
Dr. Zoidberg
Are you speaking to me? Very silly. Why do you assume automatically that I am a supporter of the delusional thugs in Hamas? Although I must say that there are some very good hearted people within this movement also.
The thread was visited by an imposing figure who threatened to have his underlings restore order to the comments:
8 Feb 2010, 2:09PM
OFF-TOPIC WARNING
Please confine your discussion to issues raised in the article. Several commenters are trying to divert it towards other topics. Off-topic comments may be removed by the moderators.
After a search for something relevant and yet anti-Israeli to say – not easy in the circumstances – we see this gem of lies, insinuations and hatred: no instances are mentioned, since they seemingly aren’t necessary when used against Israelis, no proof is offered – it’s Jews we’re talking about.
8 Feb 2010, 2:20PM
To The Jubilation1
Seth is surprised that all cities are not like London. Israel has people of all races and colours living together however few Arab villages will allow Jews to buy land or build a house among them? You have to go to court to get permission and then it’s generally not granted.
More from the heights of disingenuousness!!!
Whan do Israeli Jews want to buy land and build a house among them? Only for ethnic cleansing developement puposes and settlements!
Namokel managed not to get deleted by seeing this action of an Israeli state with Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs as involving Israelis (all of whom are apparently Jews to him) and Arabs – all of whom he sees as Palestinians.
8 Feb 2010, 2:32PM
While there are many hurdles in the path of the project, it would be a major disappointment were it to founder at this point, because mixed communities represent one of the best methods of bridging the gulf between the majority of Jews and Arabs in Israel and Palestine.
YES to the One-State-Solution!
And here is Berchmans at his worst, saying nothing, implying everything and managing to avoid deletion by some means not revealed to me. (It seems to have escaped his attention by the way, that those reinforced basements he is talking about were built by the Israelis for the protection of the Gazan people, but which Hamas only uses for protection of its thugs and its ammunitiion. The death of their people under the principle of human shields is of advantage to them in that they can be complained about to Goldstone and the media always hungry for horror stories about the Israelis.)
8 Feb 2010, 4:54PM
Keo2008
“Hamas wants to destroy Israel. “
Its a negotiating stance.I am sure they would settle for the 67 green line , some water and some reassurances. The point I makeas you well know as you always respond to this.. is that what a brutalised, hidden and poverty striken people put on a document is of secondary consideration to the cause of the problem.
What kind of document would you write scurrying about in reinforced basements ..hiding from the astonishingly successful IDF after 60 years of watching your relatives and friends being bumped off? I dream that one day Jewish and Muslim children will walk hand in hand…? He would have been in an Israeli jail before you could say equality.
Naturally, comments that are pro-Israel, whether on or off thread are in much more danger: Danglibitz managed to be deleted three times though writing on the same subjects as the Bigots’ brigade.
8 Feb 2010, 1:56PM
I do not understand,
given the obstinate extremists ruling Gaza and the obstinate ineffectuals in the WB
why is Israel alone is getting the insults and the vitirol?
Do they exist in a vacuum? are they controlling the Palestinians very thought processes?
or as I suspect most of the posters here have an anti-Israel (some anti Jewish) perspective and though they claim to be fair and caring, they are far from itYou don’t know who you are.
8 Feb 2010, 2:09PM
Gegenbeispiel
Maybe not
Mayebe it is because this forum is about as anti/Israel/Jewish as you can get?
8 Feb 2010, 3:51PM
Gotta luv the mods here
About as objective as a parent at the school play!
Hawkeye
Omar2
WellofSense
Medusa
The Alchemist
Louise
Tosca
Maimon
Telling the Truth
Israelinurse
Adam Levick
Margie in Tel Aviv
Guest/Cross Post
Hadar Sela
41 comments
Comments feed for this article
March 8, 2010 at 12:10 am
Abandon hope
“And here is Berchmans at his worst, saying nothing, implying everything and managing to avoid deletion by some means not revealed to me. ”
Having posted so many cries for peace…very often without strings…having condemned the violence inflicted on Israeli citizens so often I think that if anything is implied it will be seen as fairly positive. I get the benefit of the doubt.
March 8, 2010 at 12:40 am
TomWonacott
Very good commentary Margie.
The first comment by Danglibitz’s is very difficult to understand why it was deleted. There is nothing even extreme about his comment. He suggest some of the posters are anti Jewish (duh). Maybe that hit too close to home for the moderator…….
Thanks Margie.
March 8, 2010 at 3:54 am
peterthehungarian
A beautiful demo of the witless anti-Zionist poster’s total lack of any logic:
theyislying 1:30 pm
…its not just about interaction but about the extremist ideology of some in the european settler state
and only 7 minutes later:
what some of the jewish population need to acknowledge is their arab heritage and their arab ethnicity
As the saying goes – some people are extremely lucky that stupidity doesn’t cause any physical harm…
March 8, 2010 at 4:02 am
peterthehungarian
And naturally the resident asshole:
What kind of document would you write scurrying about in reinforced basements ..hiding from the astonishingly successful IDF after 60 years of watching your relatives and friends being bumped off? I dream that one day Jewish and Muslim children will walk hand in hand…? He would have been in an Israeli jail before you could say equality.
In this case he would have been burned alive by the Guardinistas’ and Berchie’s fascist Hamas comrades before he could say Galloway. Being jailed by the Israelis certainly would be his preferred choice…
March 8, 2010 at 4:26 am
Furor Teutonicus
In main article/post;
XX How disappointed he must have been to be deserted by his usual claque. XX
I think you will find the word you are looking for is “clique”.
claque is a type of hat. Among other things.
March 8, 2010 at 4:27 am
Furor Teutonicus
Forgot the “follow up” command.
March 8, 2010 at 5:34 am
Margie
German anger: (furor teutonicus)
I understand that the word ‘claque’ is not known to you. Here is its definition
claque [klæk]
n
1. (Performing Arts / Theatre) a group of people hired to applaud
2. a group of fawning admirers
[from French, from claquer to clap, of imitative origin]
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged 6th Edition 2003.
—
Use it in good health.
March 8, 2010 at 6:53 am
Furor Teutonicus
XX Margie
German anger: (furor teutonicus) XX
No. Not quite.
Fury of the Teutones, or Teutonic Fury.
The original expression is generally attributed to the Roman poet Marcus Annaeus Lucanus, also known as Lucan. It occurs for the first time in his work Bellum civile/Pharsalia. Lucan used the term to describe what he believed to be the outstanding characteristic of the Germanic tribe called the Teutones: a mad, merciless, berserk rage in battle.
The Teutones were a large, but comparitavely minor tribe, until they beat seven kinds of **** out of the Roman army at Teutoburger Wald
Re the French; From your sentence, I will conceed both would fit and it would retain viability. I however use a proper dictionary, Fredrich Köhler from 1870.
March 8, 2010 at 7:19 am
Margie
Za’am Germani,
I would invest in a modern dictionary and keep your antique as a curiousity. Modern words of our era, like ‘scientist’, would be non-existent to Koehler .
I presume you looked up ‘claque’ and not finding it tried ‘clique’ which is an uncomfortable fit and ‘cloque’ (bell) both of which are also French.
March 8, 2010 at 8:02 am
AKUS
Margie – yes the fawning tochus-lickers had no praise for their golden boy when he actually put forth something which could even be regarded as a positive article and left the arm-chair general unable to fulfill their daily lust for more Arab blood to be spilled in futile “resistance”.
From me, by the way, that is praise indeed for this sad, mixed up specimen!!
March 8, 2010 at 8:15 am
Furor Teutonicus
xX Margie
I would invest in a modern dictionary and keep your antique as a curiousity. Modern words of our era, like ’scientist’, would be non-existent to Koehler .
I presume you looked up ‘claque’ and not finding it tried ‘clique’ which is an uncomfortable fit and ‘cloque’ (bell) both of which are also French. XX
It has both. It ALSO has Scientist.
So…
March 8, 2010 at 8:19 am
sababa
Real nice piece Margie, and it’s fun to see you deal with the raging Teutonic (or whatever…)
I missed this piece on Cif, but given that Seth has lived in Jerusalem and now I think claims to live in Jaffa, isn’t it time he was outed as the SETTLER he must be??? I mean, really, how can the progressive Cifferiate overlook this??????????????? Time for some furor Ciffonic, no?
March 8, 2010 at 9:19 am
Abandon hope
peterthehungarian
.
“And naturally the resident @55H0Le”
If this helps then I think you should be proud of it and not at all embarrassed when you look back on your posts. You could try arguing of course ..but we both know this is unlikely to happen! I will communicate with you when you can keep a civil tongue in your head.
March 8, 2010 at 10:59 am
peterthehungarian
Bercmans
To make things clearer: I would prefer to communicate with Jabba the Hutt and not with you. Less disgusting and much much more intelligent…
March 8, 2010 at 12:09 pm
JerusalemMite
Furor Teutonicus
claque is a type of hat. Among other things.
Uuuh! No. Claque is a clique of geese.
March 8, 2010 at 12:32 pm
Margie
JerusalemMite
Claque is a clique of geese.
errr…NO… that is a flaque.
March 8, 2010 at 12:54 pm
Jonny Moses
Furor Teutonicus, who gives a shit?
March 8, 2010 at 1:11 pm
Jonny Moses
Abandon, I didn’t realise you were such a prude when it came to repeating profanities. Are you some sort of God-fearing evangelist perpetually preaching to those beyond redemption?
Or are you such a sensitive type that people burning to death in a pit to the blasphemous shouts of the perpetrators is unworthy of condemnation, but to be called an @55hole, well that’s really beyond the pale of common decency.
I’m starting to think this whole Middle East business revolves around you dear Berchmans.
March 8, 2010 at 1:32 pm
pretzelberg
A proposal to build housing for Jews in the centre of Israel in Jaffa in a suburb called Ajami is bitterly opposed by the Arab residents
Well, isn’t that understandable? Why Jewish-only?
March 8, 2010 at 1:37 pm
pretzelberg
I see my post from 5:08PM to theyislying is still there:
“the extremist ideology of some in the european settler state … what some of the jewish population need to acknowledge is their arab heritage and their arab ethnicity …” Make up your mind, will ya?
Where’s my hat tip then, margie?
March 8, 2010 at 1:45 pm
Margie
Dunno what you want a hat tip for Pretz but here it is h/t.
I went to great pains to explain that Arabs live separately from Jews Pretz. There is already Arab housing in Ajami. The proposal is to build housing there for Jews as well.
March 8, 2010 at 1:49 pm
Abandon hope
Jonny Moses
“Or are you such a sensitive type that people burning to death in a pit to the blasphemous shouts of the perpetrators is unworthy of condemnation,”
.
I condemn all violence and normally pretty loudly… pit of blasphemous shouts … building block in Qana ..I try not to discriminate .
March 8, 2010 at 2:32 pm
peter1
It appear that furor teutonicus has met Gaius Margieus and has been found wanting, what an appropriate moniker.
March 8, 2010 at 2:40 pm
Gaia Margia
It’s Gaia Margia, petrus uno.
March 8, 2010 at 3:45 pm
peter1
A bow and a wave of the hand of recognition to Gaia Margia.
civilitas successit barbarum.
March 8, 2010 at 4:59 pm
Jonny Moses
Typical, play moral the equivalence card. If the IDF were to deliberately burn their prisoners alive in a pit of fire after dousing them in petrol I wouldn’t be making any excuses for them or for Israel, and I’m sure you would have a bit more to say about it too. Disingenuous Berchmans.
March 8, 2010 at 11:16 pm
peterthehungarian
Jonny Moses
Berchmans is only trying to be fair condemning the Auschwitz crematoria and the brutal execution of the Nazi leaders in Nuremberg.
March 8, 2010 at 11:19 pm
peterthehungarian
After setting up of the local Meretz branch (peter1 could be a honorary member) seems to me that this is the high time to eshtablish the CifWatch Society of Classica Philologica.
March 8, 2010 at 11:54 pm
Abandon hope
Jonny Moses
” If the IDF were to deliberately burn their prisoners alive in a pit of fire.. I wouldn’t be making any excuses for them ”
The element of “deliberation” is always fraught with complications…as for Qana..who would have a thought a bomb would explode? You could have knocked me down with a wet noodle.
I condemn all violence…. I have a 100 percent record on this. Dont try to claim the higher ground.It is up here.
March 9, 2010 at 12:19 am
JerusalemMite
You are such a bigoted hypocrite Berchmans.
I fantasize you being parachuted amongst the Taleban and hearing you say ‘Gentle people’ over and over again between the screams as they rip the skin from you to the glory of Allah.
March 9, 2010 at 4:10 am
Zkharya
‘I condemn all violence…. I have a 100 percent record on this.’
Except when you’re excusing it as ‘frustration’ against ‘Brit Jews’ for not being ‘at the forefront’ of condemning the ‘slaughter’ (look at Berchman’s remarks on the ‘If you can’t learn from history…thread) of ‘Lebanese’.
Or threatening me with ‘destruction’.
March 9, 2010 at 9:35 am
Abandon hope
JerusalemMite
.
“I fantasize .. the screams as they rip the skin from you”
.
I still fantasize about the pretty one from the Mamas and Papas …Ive obviously been getting it wrong all these years!
Zkharya
.
“Or threatening me with ‘destruction’.”
Im glad you used ” quotation marks” I have discovered that on CIFWatch ” quotation marks” have exactly the opposite meaning that I learned in 6th Year Grammar . Then they were a record of a word or phrase the other person used.
I said “destroy”…I cant remember why but I regret it and apologise…I would have just seen some post of yours and over reacted. It happens.
March 9, 2010 at 10:07 am
Zkharya
And I apologise for misremembering ‘destruction’ for ‘destroy’.
March 9, 2010 at 10:21 am
Abandon hope
Zkharya
“And I apologise for misremembering ‘destruction’ for ‘destroy’.”
You called me something bad…I cant remember.. but if you can let me know. Now normally I welcome personal abuse and can turn it to attack.. it was my trade mark on CIF but it doesnt happen as much now as gradually people get banned and their retread identities are wary and wont take me on.:(
I do remember I had just said something positive about you and your remark hit home.As I say it happens and I regret it.
March 9, 2010 at 2:45 pm
Jonny Moses
Abandon, if a good socialist like you can not bring yourself to unequivically condemn the burning of prisoners alive in the name of God, without having to make it conditional on an equal condemnation of Israel, then your sense of morality and compassion for your fellow human beings – including the Palestinians whose cause you claim to champion in the name of universal justice, has been totally degraded by bigotry.
March 9, 2010 at 2:47 pm
Jonny Moses
Abandon, if a good socialist like you cannot bring yourself to unequivocally condemn the burning of prisoners alive in the name of God, without having to make it conditional on an equal condemnation of Israel, then your sense of morality and compassion for your fellow human beings – including the Palestinians whose cause you claim to champion in the name of universal justice, has been totally degraded by bigotry.
March 10, 2010 at 12:13 am
Abandon hope
Jonny Moses
” you cannot bring yourself to unequivocally condemn the burning of prisoners”
I have condemned Hamas violence many times and for you I will do this again.
I condemn any violence towards any person anywhere especially in Palestine .
March 10, 2010 at 5:54 pm
Yohoho
Berchmans, you should know better than to prate about Qana, shouldn’t you, or is your brain so addled that you don’t remember the trouncing you got about it on CiF when it was rather more civilised than it is now and allowed idiocies to be challenged?
Remember these for example?
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/qana-directors-cut.html
Jonny Moses, which “good socialist” is that?
March 10, 2010 at 7:04 pm
Snigger
Berchmans the refrain is getting samey.
So what if you condemn Hamas violence (you admitted that you haven’t by name incidentally, so how are the morons below the line to know what you are condemning?)
And you excuse Hamas’ antisemitism in your post to Mitnaged, captured forever in CiF commenters above. (Note, not a smiley in sight and particularly not after the “hating Jews is OK if they deserve it….” bit):
“03 May 08, 7:26pm
MITNAGED
.
##Would you give us the benefit of your towering intellect##
.
I disagree but I admire your honesty.*
.
## as to why Hamas should hate Jews “now” ##
.
I’d hate them big style if they corralled my people, humiliated my folks ,made my dad stand and show his papers to a kid a quarter his age etc etc etc
.
## the Hamas Charter which has absolutely no mention of Jew-hatred in it? ##
.
The HAMAS charter is a shocker. The *JEW-hate* is a gift for Zionists, but I guess HAMAS didnt see that as a difficulty.
.
Hating JEWS is OK if they deserve it. You make it sound like anti Semitism.
.
B
PS * Stolen from Bob Hope.”
The above is NOT an example of what you call “sarcastic antisemitism.”
No, you inveterate wretch. You meant every single word of it.
March 10, 2010 at 9:18 pm
modernityblog
“I have condemned Hamas violence many times and for you I will do this again.”
Abandon hope/Berchmans,
Then please provide links to your unequivocal condemnation of Hamas violence.
Links please, evidence.
March 11, 2010 at 4:16 pm
Serendipity
modernityblog, I am with you.
Ahoy, Berchmans!
Provide the links for your unequivocal condemnation of Hamas. If you have done this “many times” (although I doubt you have done it unequivocally even once) then that should not be too difficult!
You said before that you could do so but chickened out.
You have clanged on here before about sourcing information. Follow your own advice and put your money where your mouth is or admit that you are lying through your teeth.