This is a guest post by Margie in Tel Aviv
Part of the Guardian World View (GWV) is that it is permissible to accuse the Israelis of anything that happens to pop into one’s head without examining it for truth or actuality. We had an example of that when Michael White of the Guardian made, in passing in an interview on the BBC, a statement without foundation about people murdering each other a great deal in Israel.
Here is an example of how this sort of behaviour has a ripple effect. This is a comment found in the thread following Yoav Shamir’s defence of his documentary, Defamation.
25 Jan 2010, 3:29PM
Zamalek
As usual the Palestinian right to drive along route 443 trumps Israeli rights to drive along the road without being blown up or shot at.
So Israeli rights to use a highway, trumps Palestinian rights to travel in their own land! Not even apartheid South Africa denied blacks the right to travel along its highways! The Ulster govt never denied Catholics the right to use roads.
The not to be shot at requires the law enforcement authorities to take action to prosecute offenders, not blanket bans based on race or religion. this provides the evidence that Israel IS a racist state.
Zionists believe they are above the law. Robert Maxwell stole millions from UK pension funds, and donated the money to Israel. There has been no expression of regret or apology from Israel, nor one penny returned!
Israeli intelligence organizations carry out assinations anywhere they chose. Not even apologising when the kill an innocent Italian waiter, by mistake. These kind of acts create ill feelings among non-jews, and are an embarrasment to the diaspora.The bottom line is that the Zionists were allowed to enter a country where they had no business, and drive out the legitimate population by terror, with the connivance of a foreign occupier. Probably a much higher percent of Palestinians are genetic descendants of the original Hebrew nation, than are the settles from Europe and the USA etc. Zionism is a mirror image of nazism.
The problem is as with Hitlers gang they cannot see the other as an equal human being, only as an “untermensch” without rights.
This is a free association posting of a person I had never noticed before, answering Zamalek’s description of the fact that despite the danger involved, the Palestinians have once again been allowed to travel on route 433 by the Israeli High Court on the basis of legality. Oldonmk2, typically of the kind of person we are discussing, does not bother to examine the facts of the case or to use references but assumes blithely that it is because people are not Jews they had been barred from using the highway. He seems to think that the original provision barred people according to ‘race or religion’ without taking into account that more than twenty percent of Israelis are of a minority race or religion and yet are not barred from travelling on route 433 on those grounds.
Those barred were Palestinians – people of a different nationality, to prevent terrorist acts such as the one attempted by those who planted an inexpertly improvised explosive device (IED) on the side of route 443 set to explode at peak hour, with a little explanatory note attached explaining its manufacture by Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades, the Alla Abu Sharifa Unit.
Reflexively without thought or proof, oldonmk2 compares Israel to South Africa and finds Israel lacking.
Robert Maxwell, the British millionaire, “had used hundreds of millions of pounds from his companies’ pension funds to shore up the shares of the Mirror Group, to save his companies from bankruptcy. Eventually, the pension funds were replenished with monies from investment banks Shearson Lehman and Goldman Sachs, as well as the British government.” However the accusation by oldonmk2 presumably on the basis of the fact that Maxwell was a Jew is that the money from the pension funds was given to Israel. Proof? There is no proof. Who needs proof when we are dealing with Israel?
Our intrepid liar talks of Israel’s intelligence organisations killing an innocent Italian waiter, by mistake. The waiter in question was an Algerian-born Moroccan citizen in fact. Far from not apologising, in 1996, the Israeli government paid compensation equal to US$283,000 split between Bouchiki’s wife and daughter, and a separate settlement of US$118,000 to a son from a previous marriage.
His imagination and perhaps his education by the media is shown most clearly by his description of how Israel was created. Apparently this person has never heard of the UN or that they voted to grant Israel a state in the Palestinian Mandate territory. He says that Jews, who have lived continuously in Israel for millennia had ‘no business’ there, that they drove out the ‘legitimate population’ by terror, with the connivance of a foreign occupier – and here he has lost me completely. All his other lies and inventions have some grounding in the popular accounts, the media or even the hate sites, but who or what is this ‘foreign occupier’?
He has obviously half-read half-understood the results of some genetic studies and on that basis feels himself qualified to comment on the genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians and to draw conclusions.
His statement that ‘Zionism is a mirror image of nazism’ is the antisemites’ creed.
This kind of comment, attributing all sorts of crimes to Israel without investigation and without examination is not limited to commenters on CiF. The media are rife with this kind of unexamined, unfair, unbalanced assumption.
Let me leave you with an example. Veteran political reporter Christine Amanpour finds it natural to say that Israel practises waterboarding without a smidgeon of proof. If she does it, why shouldn’t others?



21 comments
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February 8, 2010 at 11:50 pm
AKUS
Hi Margie – yes indeed – why rely on facts, or actual experience of Israel, when one can simply make it up?
The Guardian has succeeded in creating, to coin a current term, a two-dimensional avatar of Israel that exists only in the minds of its contributors and those commenting on the endless anti-Israeli threads. So why should it or its readers bother with facts when all they are doing is adding another nasty opinion to this mythical creation in order to delegitimize the real one?
February 9, 2010 at 12:09 am
TomWonacott
Wow Margie, oldonMK2 went through the gamut of lies about Israel. Unfortunately, lying about Israel is not unusual. In fact, there is an orchestrated campaign of lies about Israel – much of it spread by the left wing media, for example, the al-Durra incident (France 2 TV). This lie contributed to the start of the second Intifada.
Of course, the biggest lies are the charges that Israel is an apartheid state similar (if not worse) than apartheid South Africa, and the comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany. Even when Israel participates in humanitarian efforts like the earthquake in Haiti, lies are spread about the Israel medical teams harvesting organs.
Thanks Margie. I wouldn’t look for any changes in this pattern for the near future.
February 9, 2010 at 3:05 am
THH
Papalagi’s posts are usually right from the Palestinian propaganda books .
He cites counter punch that is as ridiculous as debka .
February 9, 2010 at 6:15 am
pretzelberg
I’m no fan of either White or Amanpour (and they deserve criticism) – but where is the evidence that “such behaviour” is responsible for the detestable lies of oldonmk2 et al?
February 9, 2010 at 7:10 am
Fairplay
Oy veh – all the classic lies in one post :
“..The bottom line is that the Zionists were allowed to enter a country where they had no business, and drive out the legitimate population by terror, with the connivance of a foreign occupier..”
No business in *Eretz Yisrael?*? – the national/spiritual homeland of the Jews. Drive out the *legitimate* population? – many of which had entered illegally while the British Mandate authority turned a blind eye and doing its best to prevent/limit Jewish aliya. ‘Terror’? – you mean the wars between the Jews and the Arabs which lost the Palestinians some of their lands.
Classic antisemitic lies attracted to CiF like flies to horseshit. What can you do except expose them to the wider world for ridicule and condemnation ?
February 9, 2010 at 7:34 am
THH
Check out Jody mcintyre’s post on the Christian aid Attacking Israel .
3 days after the thread was closed they gave her the opportunity to respond to Adam’s article with some more lies from ctrl alt shift and electronic intifada .
Of course they wont let her write a full article that we can all show her lies .
February 9, 2010 at 8:45 am
Margie
Pretzelberg, Responsible media figures set the tone for general behaviour. I can’t draw you a diagram showing the relationship between their lies and the lies of this anonymous figure but I can tell you that if people notice that people on the media are not called to account for their views then they are aware that this is permissible and approved by society.
This is the reason for watch groups such as this one. It quite correctly takes exception to the inaccuracies that the Guardian supports.
February 9, 2010 at 8:58 am
AKUS
Funny – Olddon seems to have survived on CiF – so who is his MK2 version?
February 9, 2010 at 9:00 am
pretzelberg
@ Margie
I failed to really make my point clear. I agree that e.g. Michael White’s impromptu and flippant comment was irresponsible – especially coming on an innocuous breakfast radio show that, I imagine, has a listenership not necessarily clued up (and potentially gullible) on I/P.
That said, the revisionist stuff spewed out by oldonmk2 is something else altogether and is most definitely not “permissible and approved by society.”
Counter-example: when e.g. Matt Seaton goes on a rant about the US, I would not link him to or suggest he is responsible for crazy conspiracy theories about e.g. the CIA inventing AIDS/committing 9/11.
p.s. So what comments on the other thread were you referring to re. Star Wars?
February 9, 2010 at 9:32 am
pretzelberg
@ AKUS
Ah – the penny just dropped. “oldonmk2″ could possibly be a reference to the professional football/soccer club formerly based in Wimbeldon. Nickname: the Dons. They have since relocated and are called the Milton Keynes (MK) Dons.
But (ahem) more importantly: said poster’s backlog shows a broad spectrum of distinctly normal and knowledegable comments (many directed in anger against the rich).
The exceptions are:
- “The Kingdom of Saudi is cosseted protected and propped up by Uncle Sam? Even to the point where US airplanes were used to dump saudi dissidents in the sea?” and
- “The cost of this revival [of Hebrew] was the death of Yiddish, the ancient tongue of the Ashkenazi people [sic].”
This comment, meanwhile, bears none of the hateful rhetoric seen in the post cited at top:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/25/israel-visas-ngo-palestine?showallcomments=true#CommentKey:fee0bb57-535e-47c3-9950-66787085548f
February 9, 2010 at 10:18 am
Abtalyon
THH;
Just to remind you that Jody McIntyre is male. Doesn’t make his blogging any more relevant, of course.
February 9, 2010 at 11:17 am
Margie
You’ve failed to make your concern about star wars clear too Pretzel. Please go ahead and clarify.
February 9, 2010 at 11:26 am
pretzelberg
@ Margie
All I’ve noticed is certain posts suddenly getting a flurry of 5-star or 1-star ratings – sometimes against the grain of the overall thread mood. There are also clear cases of people giving me 1 star where I’ve made a perfectly innocent and non-contentious remark – but I couldn’t care less.
So what exactly were you referring to/inferring on t’other thread? Were you coming to my defence when you referred to “when several have the same opinion and one is singled out”? Surely not.
;-)
February 9, 2010 at 11:30 am
Margie
l. I was talking about the phenomenon generally. You are naturally included Pretz
February 9, 2010 at 1:34 pm
pretzelberg
@ Margie
I trust you count me among the victims rather than the perpetrators. Still not sure what precisely you were referring to when saying “A juvenile troll is playing Star Wars here“, but there you go.
February 9, 2010 at 2:42 pm
Serendipity
pretzel, I feel that I want to ask why this star business exercises you so.
And “…Michael White’s impromptu and flippant comment was irresponsible..”
yes, but given that he is a Guardian editor and the Guardian’s predilection for Israel-bashing is becoming better known, I strong disagree that White’s comment was “flippant.” It was at least insensitive, and your use of the world “flippant” (which perhaps indicates your interpretation only) is therefore totally misplaced because it seems that you are implying that White’s slip up should not be taken seriously.
White’s remark, during the interview about Silvio Berslusconi, was more of a Freudian slip I suspect, and evidenced a major disconnect between his brain and his mouth. If he was conscious of what he said, it puts the Guardian in an even worse light. It reflected the Guardian’s world view what Israel-hatred can be crowbarred even into even the most inappropriate places in interviews and regardless of the topic, if you work quickly enough to wrong foot idiotic and thick presenters.
February 9, 2010 at 3:06 pm
pretzelberg
@ Gerald Kreeve
Sorry, not with you. Please do explain.
@ Serendipity
pretzel, I feel that I want to ask why this star business exercises you so.
Why don’t you ask margie? She’s the one always referring to it! I was just curious as to what she meant on a particular thread.
And re. White.
you are implying that White’s slip up should not be taken seriously.
FFS. This is ridiculous. I neither implied nor meant such a thing.
February 9, 2010 at 3:41 pm
Abandon hope
“Part of the Guardian World View (GWV) is that it is permissible to accuse the Israelis of anything that happens to pop into one’s head ”
Like gross exageration,
February 9, 2010 at 4:04 pm
PT
Trolls should be ignored.
February 9, 2010 at 5:48 pm
sababa
Margie, this is indeed a very nice example of the sort of fever-fantasies that often pass as “informed comment” on Cif. However, I fear many people who post along these lines are not really “lazy liars”, but rather dedicated Jew-haters who just love it that nowadays, it’s possible to express Jew-hatred and get much admired for it, as long as it seems to serve the politically correct purpose of delegitimizing the Jewish state.
February 9, 2010 at 7:29 pm
smtx01
So where do we all go from here thats what i want to know