Where’s the libel?

This thread starts with an outright anti-semite post (deleted and reconstructed from an other post) The poster has a decent moniker: 2blackhawks1RPG (naturally he hasn’t been banned after tens of similar posts)

Some Semites (the chosen ones) are more semite than other semites (the occupied)!”

then becomes a forum of of the GWV propaganda:

by Danot
CST (Community Security Trust) monitors antisemitism on behalf of the British Jewish community.
and ignores anti-semitism when it isn’t directed at the Jewish community. Most semites in this country are Muslim.

As we all know Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslims are semites…

by Gareth100

Anyone else have the feeling that the proliferation of such articles is softening us up in preparation for another humanitarian mission in the mould of Cast Lead?

The CST naturally is part of the Israeli PR machine… Where is Brian Whitaker supportive comment?

by alronfl

Not a mention of zionism in the entire article. A disingenuous obfuscation. The vast majority are antizionist, not antisemitic – and there is a huge difference.

WTF is the connection between attacks against British Jews and zionism?

by oroklini

Discrimination yes. Racism no. Is everyone entering a synagogue the same race? I didnt think Judaism discriminated on race. What is the race of an african jew?

Attacking Jews is not to be considered racism but discrimination…
Very good…

by ragworm

Whatever you think of Israeli politics, attacking local Jews out of anger at Israel is racism.
Absolutely agree too. In which case, it would be much more helpful if Israel didn’t define itself as ‘the Jewish state’.

So the reason of anti-semitism is the existence of a Jewish state…

Logic101

From what I know about CST, Islamophobia is outside their realm. Like ADL, anti-semitism is an industry for them.

First Holocaust industry then anti-semitism industry…

Then Danot again:

@toryzionist

It’s very important to zionists like yourself to fuel this error because it allows you to call anyone who criticises Israel a racist. Despite the fact that the majority of alleged anti-semites in the country are Muslism Semites opposed to Isreals campaign of terror. Start using the correct terminology and it becomes clear that the complaint is really not about anti-semitism but about anti-zionism. The problem with that is that it is perfectly acceptable to be anti-zionist.

So using the correct terminology anti-semitism is acceptable…

by madhatter

CST recorded over 900 such incidents across Britain during 2009:
Hmm, 900/365 = 2.46 incidents per day in nation of 60 million people.
Hardly Kristallnacht redux or the precursor of the Holocaust II is it ?

So everything is fine…

Some very sophisticated picture of the world by antizrikzar:

well apart from the fact that jews are not a race, simply people who follow some form of a religion called judaism, many of them seem to have this irritating arrogance that they are the only semitic people, arabs are too. Zionists however are no better than racists in the true sense rather like the european colonialists of times past and with a similar appetite to the usa for bombing to bits civilian infrastructures and a complete disregard to the people living in them.

The good old Sorcey:

As always, there’s a near-hysterical crowd attempting to tie in any criticism of Israel with anti-semitism, and the usual vilification of Europeans and the left especially because they are more critical of Israel than Americans.
These people are gladdened by any increase in anti-semitism, as it allows them to shout down criticism of Israel. Or at least allows them to try.
Just to put the acute anti-semitism of the UK into context, there were 61,000 islamophobic attacks in the UK in 2006-7, of which 21% were assaults and stabbings.
Any racially or religiously motivated attacks are wrong, but this is just being used as a platform to vilify left-leaning Britons and attempt to stifle criticism of Israel, if not by the author then by the usual posters.
Oh, and hi Geoffrey. How are you today?

British anti-semites are paid by the Zionists…

Our esteemed Monica (alias CountBernadotte etc. in short Dotty):

It should indeed be very easy for people to post examples of blatantly anti-Semitic behaviour by so-called ‘liberal lefties’, shouldn’t it? But for some strange reason no one seems able to do that. Well, certainly not on this forum anyway. There is however another forum, which attempts, and fails miserably to do so.

She must be correct… As Matt Seaton warned one of the posters that calling Ken Livingstone and George Galloway anti-semite is considered libellous and must be corrected. (And naturally ExiledLondoner calling Geoffrey Alderman “homicidal professor” on CIF is legitimate criticism…

In an other post from the the same female Count:

Demonisation of Israel? Where — here on CiF? Please be specific, Syd. For example, at what point does does “legitimate criticism of Israel” turns into demonisation?

Monica must be a very lucky aristocrat… stupidity and bigotry don’t cause physical pain.

dav31

To treat every Jewish person, or synagogue, or organisation as personifying whatever you despise about Israel is to apply the racist idea of collective guilt.’
So there you have it folks, just replace the appropriate words with Muslim, mosque and Palestinian, and you have the exact situatuon in Gaza.
Them good old double standards strike again.

He is correct too… Well known fact that the Jews of London are launching rockets on the gentile Brits from the CST office so why the whining of the British Jews being attacked!?

daraO asks Mark Gardner:

What do you think of a website like CiFwatch, for example, whose seeming raison d’etre is to smear critics of Israel here as antisemites? Do you think it damages, helps, or is irrelevant to your cause?

Really Mark what do you think?

polishsupporter discovered the real cause of British anti-semitism:

Defending yourself doesn’t mean blowing the living daylights out of innocent people. Surely that is what creates the hate and anti semitism in the first place

Then Lavartis Prodeo quotes Mark Gardner…
when people hilariously suggest that I have written an article for CiF because I have been warned by Zionist Central to prepare the ground for another round of war in the Middle East

then asks:

Who? Where? No-one has suggested that. By setting up straw men like this you not only make yourself look ridiculous, but you are setting the cause of anti anti-Semitism back and are more likely to deter than to attract Gentiles sympathetic to your cause – like me.

This poster is not familiar with Gareth100′s wisdom (quoted above)…
BTW Mr/Mrs Prodeo you can stick your sympathy… you know where…

And the wannabee Hamas gunner Steve Hill:

But I reserve absolutely the right to attack the religion (rather than the race), just as I attack all forms of superstitious nonsense wherever I find it. I reserve the right to attack manifestations of Zionism which amount to inhumanity to other races, or as unjustified and illegal land grabs because “god gave us the land”.
And I reserve the right to tell you that you are ignorant and slightly round the bend when you try to play the “anti-semitism” card to shut me up because you find my observations embarrassing or inconvenient.

Dotty again:

Furthermore, Mark Gardner and CST are oft quoted and linked to by the operators of that website — so it’s quite probable that there is some collaborative communication between them. As indeed there is with CiF contributor, Geoffrey Alderman.

calling Central command…our secret conspiracy has been discovered… asking for instructions…

by Ramones

Richard Desmond, Nick Cohen, Melanie Phillips, these people and others disseminate propaganda that I find very near to the knuckle and a disgrace considering their race and the tragic history of that race.
What goes around……?

Poor gentile Nick Cohen has a Jewish name… Ramones doesn’t like you…finds you near the knuckle…

Logic101 again:

maxwellssilverhammer

How about universities banning jewish speakers.

Just plain idiotic. Im sure Osama is also unofficially banned from speaking his universities. That isnt racism.

Very simple… Jewish speaker = Osama

But the really best and naturally deleted post by DougallTheDog

mattseaton

For the record, therightway, we take great exception to Geoffrey Alderman’s column in the JC and hotly dispute its claims about Comment is free and our conduct as editors. We have been in touch with the editors of the JC and hope to gain a right to reply in which we can rebutt his allegations about us comprehensively and in detail.

I would be seriously interested to know why you rebutt his allegations . Ive just read the piece and it seems like fair comment to me.
He makes two allegations specifically –
That CIF runs a lot pf pieces which foster hated against israel, e.g. Seth Friedmans piece on 22 Jan which criticised Israel for being hypciritcal in providing relief in Haiti.
That he wrote a piece for CiF watch and the Guardian told him that if he did so again, he couldn’t write ATL for CiF again. he was told it was either / or!
As to the first allegation, Freidman’s piece was slated BTL for exactly that.
As to the second, he says he has the email.
I will have to keep reading the JC to see what your response is.

After realizing that his question to Seaton had been deleted Dougall had became slightly upset:

Quelle fucking suprise. As I said
So Freedom of Speech and all that Jazz is just so much nonsense when it comes to CiF editorial policy, and CiF can’t stand a little criticism without throwing all the toys out of the pram,
Matt Seaton – you are a child. A sad little, pathetic child who can’t take a little bit of criticism without crying and running off to mummy and (sniff) sobbing your little heart out (sniff) (sniff) because the nasty boys said something horrible (sniff) (sniff) to you.
I fully expect to get banned for this because that is your knee jerk reaction to a bit of criticism. You seriously pathetic little disgrace to Journalism.
CP Scott would be turning in his grave so fast you could start a fire with him.

check out the last comment allowed from gaza girl

the thread was shut down hours ago, but some posters are stillable to post, anyway im gonna watcha billy connolly video and cheer meself up

smtx01

Enjoy the vid. As for Mark Gardner, I respect him for his courtesy, patience and the work he does but he was wasting his time on CIF.

I don’t know if to laugh or cry.
An article titled “Facing up to the reality of antisemitism” appears and gets 378 comments, one would assume this is a good thing.

One would assume that its a good thing that seaton goes to bat under the line, perhaps taking the opportunity to keep things on an even keel.

Maybe he will admonish those trying the canard of muslims are semites too so I can’t be an anti-semite, errrrr no…… seaton was quiet on that.

Maybe he will admonish those claiming that the anti-semitic incidents aren’t really happening becasue who can trust a pro-zionist organization to be telling the truth, errrrr no…..seaton was quiet on that.

Maybe he will admonish those claiming that its anti-zionism not anti-semitism, errrrr no……..seaton was quiet on that.

I’m sure seaton is very happy with the 378 free comments and it was very nice of him to appear a number of times to set the record “straight” by taking the opportunity to:

Advise a poster that it was libelous to mention certain people as being anti-semites.

Advise people that he is unhappy with Alderman and expects a “right to reply”

Advise a poster to acknowledge where there is a strain of antisemitism in leftist anti-zionist discourse, to be alert to antisemitic discourse in all its manifestations, AND to reserve the right to criticise the conduct of the Israeli government proportionately and in a balanced way if and when that conduct merits critical comment. That is possible, and it it’s not easy but takes some intelligence and nuance, then so much for the better.

Sounds great……why didn’t he do it?

I do wonder what it means to criticise the conduct of the Israeli government proportionately and in a balanced way.

Does that mean an article or two a week will be coming about Arab terrorism?
Will an article or two a week be coming about Lebanon rattling their sabres in their bunkers?
Will there be an article or two a week about hamas refusal to recognize the Jewish state of Israel?
Will there be an article or two a week about the PA refusal to discuss and negotiate with Israel and their pre-conditions?
Will seaton hire on a few “house Arabs” to write one or two articles about the ills of the Arab world?

ohhhh of course not, that would mean that seaton reserves the right to criticise the conduct of the Arabs proportionately and in a balanced way if and when that conduct merits critical comment……and that just wouldn’t do in a left-wing rag…..or would it?

@toryzionist

It’s very important to zionists like yourself to fuel this error because it allows you to call anyone who criticises Israel a racist. Despite the fact that the majority of alleged anti-semites in the country are Muslism Semites opposed to Isreals campaign of terror.

Can’t somebody point these idiots at these pages?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Evolution_of_usage_as_a_term

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic#Ancient_Semitic_peoples

There were some house Arabs that wanted to write the truth about Hamas Hizbullah,and the PA.They were on their way to see Mat Seaton.

But they got knee capped before they even got started,and they won’t be seeing Matt S after all.

Matt decided to stick with his two poodles,SFand BH.That no one even bothered to knee cap.

TomWonacott

.

“If .. a moderator (is) offended that .. political heroes like George Galloway were called antisemitic. ”

The post would not have been removed because the mod. was “offended “..but because , as Matt states ..it was libellous. You have clearly ignored the fact that you cannot call people such horrifically offensive slurs unless you can prove it.

I repeat.. I think that should be the end of the matter… this is a lost cause.

It seems little Matt was afraid Galloway would send the cops to his house for having left a comment calling Galloway by his real name…..Mr Antisemite.

This is the new reality. Of course, Galloway is a protected species of maggot just like Benny Boy and the Hamas guests who cannot be insulted.

I was deleted on the Shameless Thread about Iran because I called Ahmednutjob a monkey. Nice huh. In the context of the Steve Bell cartoons depicting Bush and Sarah Palin especially.

Cannot insult the great leader of Iran……but Blair….oh he is a criminal so all bets are off.

Didn’t Galloway called for the suicide bombing of Blair a while ago?

But then again it is Geert Wilders who is on trial. Looks like we shall see more of this not less in the times to come.

One of the reasons I have some Machiavellian desire to visit Cif is that it reminds me of my childhood. One spent in a Communist state where insult were mandated for some and brought punishments for your parents for others.

The Leftists have Stalin in their blood. They are like religious nuts who pursue heaven on earth seeing hell and demons all around and feeling justified thus to act for their God. Of course their God is a lie and cannot exist even if Gods could.
So while they prance around in their righteous indignation so high on their heads that they cannot see the rot within.

It is almost amusing how sick this actually is.

Another thing. If you think that anyone is an anti-Semite, then put it on this web site in language that could not possibly be misinterpreted.

If you don’t get sued then you win, if you get sued and the other person wins, then maybe you were too hasty or rash. Either way, it’s better than hiding behind a rock and sniping from a position of anonymity.

So, who is up for it?

As for Hitler being a socialist? It just happens to be wholly inaccurate.

Really?

“We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.”
-Adolf Hitler

peter1 at 8.42 on Feb 6, good post.

“..I’m sure seaton is very happy with the 378 free comments …”

But of course! Hits mean money and scuttlebutt has it that al-Grauniad and CiF are on the skids financially. That must be why Berchmans is posting here.

You are forgetting that Seaton probably wouldn’t know an antisemitic comment if it smacked him in the face. He and the other Guardianistas have been neck-deep in the antisemitic ordure for so long that they don’t realise how they smell or that the smell is offensive. You may know that CiF staff were offered training in how to recognise antisemitism but they turned that down. Looks like they should have accepted.

peterthehungarian
Coco do you really think that I need a British lawyer to know who is an anti-Semite and who is not?!

What sort of question is that?

I definitely consider George Galloway and Ken Livingstone vicious anti-Semites and the allies of the most vicious contemporary Jew haters, mass murderers and hate preachers.…

Yes, but I suppose that you, as anonymous peterthehungarian, are insignificant enough to ignore.

Now go and sue me…

It’s not my job, and it’s not me being libelled.

coco, it goes to the heart of how antisemites try (and fail) to disguise their Jew-hatred as antiZionism and in particular how the comment about a certain ex-Mayor of London, who was on kissing terms with an Islamist supporter and encourager of suicide terror against Jews, was indeed antisemitic under its terms of reference.

I apologise if my referring you to it was probably a bit oblique – it seems as if it went over your head.

SarahLeah

coco, it goes to the heart of how antisemites try (and fail) to disguise their Jew-hatred as antiZionism blockquote>

I don’t recall Livingstone say he was anti-Zionist, do you have a reference?
I do however recall reports that that he had had a rather aggressive shouting match with am journalist, but that’s about it. Now Ken’s not someone I would vote for, but is he really anti-Semitic?

and in particular how the comment about a certain ex-Mayor of London, who was on kissing terms with an Islamist supporter and encourager of suicide terror against Jews, was indeed antisemitic under its terms of reference.
blockquote>

Being a former long-serving mayor of London I would suppose that he would be on first name terms with a lot of people.

I apologise if my referring you to it was probably a bit oblique – it seems as if it went over your head.

Or maybe it was just a very weak and tendentious way of propping up a flagging argument. I’m sure there are quite a few anti-Semites out there, even in the most surprising of places. e.g. Don’t just assume that anyone who applauds people for having a go at Muslims is naturally a friend, it doesn’t work like that.

I don’t recall Livingstone say he was anti-Zionist, do you have a reference?

Nowhere is Ken Livingstone on record as saying, “Hullo, I’m Ken Livingstone and I’m an anti-Zionist.”

You’re right.

Happy now?

But seriously. he is on record as saying that he thought the establishment of the State of Israel was a big mistake.

http://www.adl.org/special_reports/livingstone/livingstone.asp

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3054506,00.html

Here he is, where else but The Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/mar/04/society.london

You don’t think accusing Livingstone and Galloway of being anti-semitic might be considered libel? You don’t think that the Guardian might not want to risk a legal action?

Coco, are you a Palestinian

Gerald Kreeve

Coco, are you a Palestinian

No, not even remotely. But, I do know how Europeans behave, both at home, and abroad, such as in the Middle East.

armaros

Coco

Ken moved to Venezuela to assist Chavez who openly persecutes Jews in ways reminiscent of the lead up to Christallnacht.

I’m no fan of either KL or GG, but I’m not sure if their brazen populism is actually the same as anti-Semitism.

For the record, the anti-Jewish pogrom of Nazi Germany is called Kristallnacht (it also has other names, such as Novemberpogrome).

Independent Observer

Is Afilonius a Coco-nut?

You’ve not heard of Scrappy Coco?

e.g. “You’ve caught so many terrorists, it’s an art. You’re like Rembrandt with a grenade.”

fr the CiF moderators, any old excuse will do … suddenly they are afraid of libel? Read some of the comments about the politicians they hate – Blair, Brown, etc. Libel is the least of it.

Modernity, I’ve seen your blog and respect your views, but you’re dead wrong on this one.

First, Buchanan: You have quite a sample size problem there, because your sample size is one.

Now, for the remainder:

In the USA (and to a lesser extent in Europe), the centre-right is far more reliably pro-Israeli than the left.

The centre-right, from McCain to the Wall Street Journal to the National Review, is staunchly pro-Israeli. Firebrands of the right (such as Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, or Bill O’Reilly) are staunchly pro-Israeli. They have a “Christian” veneer but are solidly reliable friends of Israel.

In contrast, the left has a distinct anti-Israeli and sometimes anti-Semitic tinge. The New York Times pubishes Hamas; DailyKos calls for the elimination of Israel; HuffPo is Guardian-light. The Democratic Party put out Lieberman, with the term “Jewberman” often overheard. Cindy Sheehan blamed the Iraq mess on the Jews. Even Obama’s anti-Semitism czar, Hannah Rosenthal, is a Theobald AsAJew.

The differences are slightly less stark in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and the UK – but not by much.

By the way, in economics I support social democracy (“socialism”), as represented by the UK or Israeli Labour parties. But I must acknowledge reality; on the whole, the centre-left is anti-Israeli (and often anti-Semitic), while the centre-right is pro-Israeli.

If you need a longer, finer-grained analysis to be convinced, try the recent books by Harrison, Podhoretz, Glazov, and Bawer. They span the ideological range – but have no trouble recognising the problem of anti-Semitism in the moderate left vs the moderate right. (I suspect, but cannot confirm, that Shepherd’s book would likely agree.)

By the way, I know a certain number of kibbutzniks in the USA. They all support the centre-right, for exactly the reasons I have cited – including a gay kibbutznik couple. Are they all delirious? Are they all “generalising”?

@ Serendipity

Gorgeoous should be very careful of the company he keeps.

I absolutely agree.

On his radio talk show he once gave a self-confessed British Nazi a proper dressing down:

Now this does not prove that he is not anti-Semitic, of course. His reaction should be the default position for any reasonable person.
You can be an anti-Semite (or indeed in general racist) while still being utterly opposed to and disgusted by the notion of racial genocide.

I can understand why some people consider him an anti-Semite. When saying that I don’t mean e.g. because they want to smear him due to his anti-Israel rhetoric. What I mean is that some of that rhetoric is in itself extremely inflammatory. In addition to that, he calls the Nazi caller (an easy target) an “animal” but does not seem prepared to challenge the clearly anti-Semitic views of some of the people he associates with.

So yes, he is dodgy – and a self-centered opportunist. But the reason for The Guardian deleting the accusation of anti-Semitism on the thread was, I assume, fear of possible libel charges. In such a case, the onus is on the accuser/publisher to prove or substantiate their claims.