William Bapthorpe unequivocally advocates the murder of Jews on Blincoe thread

Prezelberg

The left will always be in denial, but left wing antisemitism is a serious problem exactly for the reasons Herzl’s daughter points out. Academics and media influence to name two important instituions. However, I also believe that it extends to all political persuasions.

@ Herzl’s Daughter

“You are obviously innumerate … A sample of your personal friends … is the epitome of self-selection.”

Just be honest. In your rage at me daring to challenge the CIFWV you are throwing anything within your midget-like rhetorical reach.

Do yourself a favour and read my post from 4:22 pm – these people (and also less extreme elements on CiF) represent a tiny fraction of the European left.

You are yet another disgrace to this site.

these people (and also less extreme elements on CiF) represent a tiny fraction of the European left

Pretzel continues its innumeracy, having presented no statistical evidence whatsoever for its assertion of “tiny fraction” beyond citing the statistically invalid sample of its own friends.

Glad to note that you admit it pretzelberg. Admission that you have a problem is the first step towards dealing with and overcoming it. Get therapy. It’ll help.

Herzl’s Daughter

Pretzel continues its innumeracy

Now I’m genderless – or even inanimate?

Nice.

A sample of my own friends in a number of European countries yields the opposite

The opposite of what I said earlier? So your only friends in Europe are anti-Semites?

Why is nobody here telling this maniac to stop embarrassing this website?

@ Mitnaged

So you don’t have a problem with me being “oppositional” towards anti-Israel posters on CiF?

Please do step forward those who gave a thumbs-up to Herzl’s Daughter’s libellous post from 6:31 pm …

Come on – nothing to be ashamed of, surely.

@ Herzl’s Daughter

My own quite non-random sample of friends showed those on the centre-left to be generally anti-Israel and anti-Jewish…

Hmmm …

Pletsl,

Please do step forward those who gave a thumbs-up to Herzl’s Daughter’s libellous post from 6:31 pm

You once again respond with nonsense. Peter, at 11:32, and Billious, at 11:38, and Modernity, at 11:40, and Richard, at 11:54, and HairShirt, at 2:09, and Richard again, at 2:24, all made exactly the same point as have I – that you sought to make a distinction under which Bapthorpe called only for the extermination of “settler” Jews.

A charitable view of your statements interprets “settler” to mean those in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, notwithstanding the commonplace Palestinian definition of “settler” as all Israelis.

So, now you attempt to silence criticism of your statements by the same technique employed repeatedly both by the European left and by Islamic organizations – scream “libel.”

Balderdash.

Modernity

“…..It is that disparity, how many people on the Left can be incredibly passionate and compassionate when the issue of racism comes into view, but will rarely acknowledged the blindspot that exists, if Jews are the subject of subtle or not so subtle prejudice.

By that I mean, they can spot antisemitism when it’s walking down the road with an armband and a skinhead haircut, but should UCU push a discriminatory boycott against Israelis (and only Israelis), then they can’t see the issue…..”

This is a great point. Left wing antisemitism, at least as it pertains to the state of Israel, is politically motivated. Right wing antisemitism is motivated by hate (of Jews, blacks, Hispanics, etc.). However, what we see more of is the merging of the far left and far right on hatrid of Jews (like WB).

This is a very broad generalization and, of course, is a simplification of a complex issue.

For the sake of the discussion, if the IP conflict was suddenly solved and everybody was happy in Israel and Palestine (and Britain), I think you would see a significant drop off in antisemitism on the left, whereas, although there would be some drop in right wing antisemitism, the drop off would be much less.

Pletsl,

I’ve known what “random sample” and “sample size” are since I was 16

No, you haven’t. You need to return to undergraduate maths. Your own acquaintances are neither random nor an adequately-sized sample.

And, yes, defending Blapthorpe on the basis that he referred only to slaughter of settlers, is implicitly condoning hs statement – and a half-dozen posters here caught you.

Tom

if the IP conflict was suddenly solved and everybody was happy in Israel and Palestine (and Britain), I think you would see a significant drop off in antisemitism on the left

An interesting and reasonable contention. Very possibly true, but I’m not so sure about that.

See the list here (29 Dec 7:38) of the Guardian’s anti-Semitic articles not directly related to Israel.

See also, in the USA, the anti-Semitism of the New York teacher’s strike, of the campaign against Joe Lieberman, of the Crown Heights pogrom.

See also the documentation of long-standing leftist anti-Semitism in the recent books by Bawer, Glazov and Podhoretz.

there wouldn’t be the same political impetus

Modernity, check out the references I gave just above yours, to incidents and works examining the long-standing anti-Jewish animus of the left. It’s not cut-and-dried, but they make a good case that anti-Semitism has been entrenched in the left independent of the I-P conflict.

Yes, the three authors are themselves centre-right, but their works are well-written and informative.

Here’s another institutional archive of the Kaplan-Small paper:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/27638506

Here’s a full version of the draft (no subscription required):
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/images/kaplan.pdf

Modernity and Herzl’s Daughter

I think that both of your post(s) show how complex and difficult the topic of antisemitism is. As a person that resides on the right side of the political spectrum, I don’t need to see the what right wing hate can generate, but the left is more complex to me because as Modernity says, the left is “anti racist” philosophically, and sometimes its difficult to pry the cover off of the bigotry.

HD, I apologize because I haven’t read the books you cite, and I also agree that real life is much more complex than my example just as Modernity noted. At any rate, I agree that vigilance is necessary, and more attention is necessary for antisemitism on the left. I still believe that a political settlement will diminish left wing antisemitism, however.

Modernity

But I would not suggest making a sweeping judgement that all people in Europe think a certain way, because of scattered examples, as it is erroneous. It would be like sampling the Canadian, the US, Argentinian, Peruian and Colombian media then drawing a conclusion, which fits the whole continent. It probably wouldn’t work.

I think it’s far better to look at individual countries, the socio-economic and political histories and what specialist monitoring services within the Jewish communities say.

That’s all true, but I point out that the “special monitoring services” may have a vested interest in minimising problems.

For example, only the UK and France have major Jewish communities, with France’s the largest. Yet in France the CRIF has a decidedly more positive view than the community itself, in which most will answer privately “definitely not” to the question, “Is there a future for Jews in France?”

Trigano also says “no”:
http://www.shmuel-trigano.fr/06TriganoAzure20.pdf

Community meetings indicate the grassroots say “no”:
http://www.jweekly.com/includes/print/20051/article/french-jews-quarrel-over-future-as-anti-semitic-crimes-mount/
A former Israeli military spokesman in France and a regular on radio and television stations, Rafowicz earlier said that the condition of the French Jewish community is “clinically dead.” Rafowicz asked audience members to raise their hands if they saw a long-term future for Jews in France. Only three people did so. He then asked whether there was a long-term future in Israel, and about half the people in the audience raised their hands. That proved that the Jewish community’s “leadership did not represent the grassroots,” Rafowicz said.

AKUS

“” Since you seem to take exception to the idea that WilliamBapthorpe is being accused of wanting to slaughter every Jewish man, woman and child everywhere, “”

When you stop exaggerating you may be able present a coherent front that CIF will have to awknowledge. Bapthorpe meant the settlement die hards . This is a violent and drunken ( I guess) post that you folk could present as OTT anti Israeli bias on CIF .

However this continual attempt to call it the slaughter of all the Jews is silly gnashing of teeth and unworthy of a once great blog like CIFwatch!

You guys have to calm down and attack other posts that advocate violence. Tom Wonocotts post supported the assassination of Muslims but no one says a single word in condemnation.

Time for a little balance.

Herzl’s Daughter

Thanks

Matt Seaton must be a shy person, he is trying to counter this article not here but on Robin Shepherd’s excellent site.
I’m not familiar with copyright laws so won’t quote Seaton’s full response, every interested can read it here.

Among other points helping to dig his own grave deeper and deeper Mr. Seaton asserts this:
…moderators do not exercise any such political or editorial judgment, merely a technical one …

and

We also work hard, with our team of moderators, to eliminate all and any instances of hate speech or abusiveness posted on threads.

I’m sure he is thinking about BellaM (a moderator and a member of the “Guardian family”) as a striking example of unbiased behavior throwing dirt on Melanie Phillips, or alternatively he remembers Brian Whitaker totally off topic snide remarks alleging that pro-Israeli posters are paid Israeli government agents. I would suggest to Seaton to start reading CIF and maybe then he will realize the extreme stupidity of his above statements. Reading the posts of “IDF doctors sexually abusing Palestinian children” Moeran, “cockroach” LaRitournelle and “I hate you” Arkasha could be a good start.

But there is an other real diamond of Guardian doublespeak here:

Perhaps you don’t see the irony, but is it not a little perverse that sites such as your blog or Cif Watch therefore host an antisemitic remark which Cif has deleted?

I suggest you Mr. Seaton the commissioning of an article on CIF with the headline: “Robin Shepherd and CifWatch are hosting anti-Semite hate speech”. I’m sure that you will have many volunteers to do it even free of charge. My choice would be Victoria Brittain, but first ask Georgina Henry for style guidance in order to avoid after the publication the need to bother with “moral cretins”. (naturally calling your opponents moral cretin is not abusive at all – it is just a mild and friendly criticism of Israeli government policy.) If Brittain would be busy then I’m sure Freedmann, Lerman, Silverstein and Rickmann will be available.

Is it not time that those who write andd think in terms of dismantling Israel explained where its Jewish population should go and live?
Israel and Zionism came about because Europe and America refused to accept Jews as fellow citizens, whether in their countries of birth or as immigrants from persecution.
For those who think killing (the World’s) Jews will solve their thirst for short term cheap oil & export contracts; that was tried by the Tsars, the Inquisition and Hitler. In all three cases it turned society inside out and killed far more non-Jews.

Apologies for cross posting my reply to Seaton on Robin Shepherd’s thread at http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/guardian-website-contributor-says-that-recalcitrant-israeli-settlers-should-be-slaughtered-in-latest-example-of-a-new-phenomenon-in-great-britain/#comment-1519

# Mitnaged Says:
January 12th, 2010 at 11:20 pm

Excuse me, Matt Seaton, but which planet have you beamed in from?

Today’s not so little incident from the egregious Bapthorpe is the result of your deliberate cultivation of a climate of Israel-hatred above the line which often results in barely-concealed Jew-hatred below it from the usual suspects whom you would not dream of banning, and yet you ban pro-Israel posters (many of whom happen to be Jewish) at the drop of a hat!

Your blog allowed incitement towards killing Jews, Matt Seaton, to remain online for long enough for other blogs, eg CiF Watch, to pick it up.

You say “..As for contributors being ‘frequently banned merely for voicing politely worded comments which oppose the demonisation of Israel’, I would love to be presented with a single instance (since I note you do not offer one). As you and I have discussed, you yourself have an open invitation to contribute to Cif…”

You banned me, Matt Seaton for far, far less than you allow WilliamBapthorpe to continue posting. I opposed your allowing Hamas terrorists and apologists for them to post on CiF. Hamas hates Jews doesn’t it? I opposed their Jew-hatred, politely and assertively. I did not call for all of them to be killed or for any of them to be harmed. But I was banned permanently from CiF.

“The idea, moreover, that Cif (or the Guardian more generally) is waging a ‘campaign of hatred’ against Israel is demonstrably untrue.”

I have this strange sensation of sinking into an alternative reality Matt Seaton. Demonstrate for us HOW it is untrue (given the number of ill-researched, badly constructed articles which are economical with the facts about Israel which you commission for CiF).

“We work hard to maintain a wide range of voices on all topics, with an appropriate editorial balance..”

You may work hard but not on this. If there is such a “wide range of voices on all topics” why is CiF so obsessed with the Israel-Palestine issue? Why are there so few articles by comparison about the appalling human rights in Saudi and under Hamas in Gaza? Why are there not frequent articles about the continued breaches of the cease fire by Hamas, and their effects on the citizens of Sderot and the surrounding areas?

“…this includes vigilance and sensitivity in our coverage of Israel and the Middle East…”

See my previous question and again, no it doesn’t. You are much less sensitive to Israeli opinion than you are to anti-Israel opinion. This is reflected by the heavy emphasis on anti-Israel articles, Matt Seaton (note: above the line by means of the articles) which makes it easy for people like WilliamBapthorpe to publish his incitement to murder and other egregious nonsense below the line.

“… The notion that we enable and abet ‘bigotry’ is so far wide of the mark, Robin, that, frankly, it damages your authority and credibility as a journalist and author in promoting it…”

Now you are becoming hysterical Matt Seaton. Of course CiF aids and abets bigotry! It publishes ill-researched anti-Israel opinion as hard fact and such editorial ineptitude , as I have already written, opens the door to the hatred below the line. Your moderators show their bias time and time again.

And the sentence above to Robin puts paid entirely to whatever shreds of credibility you and CiF might ever have had.

TomWonacott

“Care to join the discussion on left wing antisemitism, or does it hit a little too close to home?”

You can be be left wing you can be anti Semitic but not both.