This is a cross post of a fascinating article by Professor Colin Shindler that was recently published in the Jewish Chronicle on December 23, 2009. This article was based on Professor Shindler’s inaugural lecture at SOAS as the UK’s first Professor of Israeli Studies. To listen to the inaugural lecture click here. His ‘The Triumph of Military Zionism: Nationalism and the Origins of the Israeli Right’ has just been published in paperback by IB Tauris

Since the beginning of the al-Aqsa intifada in September 2000, an important feature in the debate on the Israel-Palestine imbroglio has been a questioning of the legitimacy of Israel as a nation-state by sections of the political Left and the liberal and cultural intelligentsia in Britain.
Such opinion has moved from passionately supporting the right of the Jews to self-determination in 1948 (by figures such as Aneurin Bevan, Bertrand Russell and Tony Benn) to questioning that right over 60 years later.
Today, Israel is often seen as troublesome on a good day and illegitimate on a bad one. Like many Israelis, many wish to roll the borders back to the 1967 boundaries, but there is also a growing number who wish to return to 1948.
This disillusionment with Israel began before the conquests of the Six-Day War and the settlement drive on the West Bank.
Whereas the Old Left had fought Mosley’s British Union of Fascists in the East End with the Jews, and lived through the Holocaust and the rise of Israel, the New Left came of age during the era of decolonisation in the 1960s. While Jews disproportionately participated in those anti-colonial struggles, the Shoah and the rise of Israel was not simply another historical event. Even for those born long after the war, it was understood that all Jews are survivors. This level of consciousness separates a majority of the Jewish Left from the broader British Left.
In 2009, a state with a Jewish majority in the Middle East does not sit easily with Marxist doctrine, post-colonial theory and Islamist belief. It is this inability to define Zionism and to classify the Jews which has brought together liberals, social democrats, Trotskyists, Stalinists and the Islamists of the Muslim Brotherhood front organisations.
Together, they reaffirm the contention that “Everything must be refused to the Jews as a nation; everything must be granted to them as individuals.” Herzl’s chief associate, Max Nordau, understood this well when he remarked at the first Zionist Congress in 1897 that the great men of the French Revolution emancipated the Jews, not through a fraternal feeling for the Jews, but because logic demanded it.
It was not that Jews did not believe in social change or indeed in revolution; it was that they believed that the theory of emancipation did not reflect their own reality. Many regarded themselves as a nation with a culture, a literature, a history, a plethora of languages and a religion.
Much of current progressive thinking can be traced back to the success of the October Revolution in 1917. Lenin, of course, would have no truck with Jewish nationalism since it would divert Jewish workers from the primary task of class struggle and recommended the choice of assimilation for the Jewish future. The Jews had skipped the national stage in their historical development and became the pioneers of socialism by moving directly to assimilation.
On the one hand, the Jews were a national minority in the transitional process of assimilating which deserved protection against antisemitism, on the other they had to be denied the right to national recognition.
Moreover, Lenin wrote about the Jews in 1903 and 1913 when the question of Jewish nationality was related to larger issues confronting the Russian workers’ movement. He noticed only Jews under the control of Baron de Rothschild and not the Marxist Zionism of Ben-Gurion and Tabenkin of the second aliyah. Lenin’s analysis of Zionism was selective, partial and outdated. He never produced a general analysis of the Jewish question and never discussed the socialist Zionist experiment in Palestine.
He clearly knew little about Jews and Jewishness. Most of the Jews with whom he was acquainted in the revolutionary movement were assimilated and Russified. Their Jewishness was often defined by transcending Jewishness. The workers’ movement in capitalist Europe, he argued, would defend the Jews against antisemitism. He also believed that after a socialist revolution, workers’ states would automatically eradicate all forms of national prejudice. As history has cruelly demonstrated, on both counts, Lenin was wrong. Leninist theory did not reflect the reality in which the Jews found themselves.
There is a belief in this country that the Left has never been susceptible to antisemitic stereotypes. The spectacle of the wealth of the Rothschilds in the 19th century, however, merged with traditional anti-Jewish imagery, propagated by centuries of the Church’s teachings. JA Hobson, the well-known liberal economist, argued that the Boer war had been instigated by international Jewish bankers and East End Jews made good, such as Barney Barnato. Jews hiding behind English names were the true manipulators of the Boer War. The revered founder of the Social Democratic Federation, HM Hyndman, spoke of an “Imperialist Judaism in Africa” and the formation of an “Anglo-Hebraic Empire in the continent”. Significantly, the civilisations of the Zulus, Basutos and Matabele were spoken of in glowing terms, while the Jews were all merely greedy capitalists. The Jews were implicitly accused of the corruption of the innocent, a desecration of an unblemished utopia. The impoverished Jewish masses of Eastern Europe were invisible.
This imagery was further embellished by Jews who wished to demonstrate that their prime allegiance was to the cause of the revolution.
Many Jews fervently embraced the possibilities of destroying the old and building the new in Russia. They could escape antisemitism and the burden of Jewishness in an unsympathetic world. Many of those who worked for world revolution were former socialist Zionists who now looked upon the Zionist experiment as distant and utopian compared to the here and now of Bolshevik success.
The Jewish section of the party began to play on the suspicion and confusion about Zionism within the Bolshevik party. It argued that Zionism was one of the branches of the imperialist counter-revolution; that it was linked to the antisemitic Whites.
The Bolsheviks believed that world revolution depended on revolution in the industrialised countries of the West. Yet this socialist internationalism was balanced by an opposing quasi-nationalist aim. A Bolshevik interest after 1917 was to stabilise the Soviet regime. Extending the appeal of revolution beyond Russia’s borders would therefore create domestic problems for the imperialists and divert political and military attention away from Russia.
The utilisation of the Arab world’s resentment of the British therefore assisted the early Bolshevik state in its war of survival. Thus in 1926 the coming to power of Ibn Saud and Wahhabi Islam in Saudi Arabia was welcomed by the Kremlin and seen as liberating and progressive. The Jews who had established the Communist Party of Palestine were ditched by Moscow in the hope of cultivating Arab nationalism. Jews were allowed to advance in all the Communist parties of the world, but were denied this in Palestine.
The Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB) was, in Lenin’s eyes, one of the most important parties. It could promote the anti-imperialist struggle from the heart of the empire and assist by undermining Britain, the leading force in the array of anti-Soviet states.
Lenin’s dream attracted many from the colonies and especially from the Indian subcontinent. Like many British Jews, they found in the Communist party a home free of racism and colonial paternalism. Rajani Palme Dutt, the son of a middle-class Indian doctor and a Swedish mother, joined the newly founded CPGB and was regarded as the foremost ideologist of the party for the next half century. He was regarded by the Kremlin as the safest pair of hands in Britain.
Dutt was the party’s foremost expert on the colonial question. His view of Jewish nationalism was conditioned by the vested interests of the Soviet Union. Zionism, moreover, was fitted into the conventional perception of anti-colonialism. It was examined in the context of the Indian struggle. Zionism was regarded as wrong and not as different. Marxist Zionist efforts in establishing the kibbutz collective and forging a command economy, based on the Soviet model, were glossed over.
However, the rise of Hitler to power in January 1933 and the threatening presence of Oswald Mosley’s British Union of Fascists introduced a new ingredient into the CPGB’s approach.
The CPGB wanted a solid base within a working-class community — the Jews offered this because they appreciated the party’s principled stand against antisemitism and were deeply drawn to the idea of creating a better world. The influx of Jews into the party created a situation whereby Jews were now disproportionately represented and particularly in the party’s hierarchy and leadership.
In the spring of 1936, the CPGB demanded a halt to Jewish immigration into Palestine from Nazi Germany. However, many Jewish Communists, while often not identifying with Zionism per se, understood the attacks against Jews in Palestine in the context of attacks against Jews in Europe generally. It raised the question of differentiating between Jewish national interests and the Kremlin’s line. Why should attacks on Jews be fought in Britain but not in Palestine? The simplistic party line was that Arab and Jewish workers should fight Zionism, Arab feudalism and British imperialism. The CPGB’s fight against fascism and antisemitism in Britain thereby clashed with the Kremlin’s anti-Zionist policy.
The Nazi-Soviet pact of August 1939 was a bombshell for the Communist Party of Great Britain. For its Jewish members, it was a challenge to their faith in the cause of revolution.
Did Stalin sign to buy time? Was the annexation of the Baltic states and half of Poland a means to construct a buffer territory against a future German invasion? Did Stalin, on the other hand, believe that this conflict between imperialist rivals — Germany on one side, Britain and France on the other — would end in mutually assured destruction such that the hitherto neutral USSR could then fulfil Lenin’s dream by advancing into Western Europe and imposing Communism?
Large amounts of war material was shipped to Germany from the USSR and Stalin congratulated Hitler on entering Paris. In the midst of this swirling vortex with its annihilationist consequences, were Jews now expected to sacrifice themselves in the cause of the greater revolutionary good?
In the Labour party rank and file and within the unions, there was a real anti-war sentiment, a stop the war sentiment. There was a deep fear of a repetition of the carnage of the First World War when ordinary people perished in their millions in a futile war between empires. The Communist Party’s stand attracted the attention of many on the British Left when no one else was opposing the war.
This line of argument opened the way to the belief that there could be an “understanding” for national liberation movements in the developing world to working with the Nazis if it ousted the British imperialists and secured independence. After all, “the enemy of my enemy” is my friend.
The former president of the Indian National Congress, Subhas Chandra Bose, arrived in Berlin in March 1941 and enlisted German assistance in training an Indian military force. These Indian soldiers fought British troops in Italy.
If Mussolini’s forces had been successful in September 1940 and entered Cairo, they would have been welcomed as liberators by the Egyptians. Had it not been for the victory at El Alamein, SS Obersturmbannführer Walter Rauff would have ordered his Einsatzkommando to liquidate the Jews of Palestine. Moreover, as in Eastern Europe, the Nazis expected local participation in their actions.
There was therefore a profound difference of choice for Jews and for anti-colonial freedom fighters. In both cases, vested interest overcame other considerations. For the Jews, it was often a matter of life and death, an escape from systematic extermination.
Trotsky had become sensitised to the prevalence and use of antisemitism in the USSR when he lost the power struggle to Stalin in the mid-1920s. Karl Radek, a strong supporter of Trotsky asked “What’s the difference between Moses and Stalin? Moses took the Jews out of Egypt; Stalin takes them out of the Communist Party.”
Rising antisemitism in Europe caused Trotsky to revise his attitude that assimilation was the answer to the Jewish problem and he became acutely aware of the Zionist answer. Trotsky used the term “Jewish nation” and was not seemingly opposed to the Jews moving en masse to Palestine once the victory of socialism had been achieved.
While Trotsky had predicted the Nazi-Soviet pact and condemned fascism, he also understood Stalin’s rationale for keeping the USSR out of any conflict for as long as possible. He too saw the war as a continuation of the First World War — a conflict between rival imperialisms.
There was little to choose in 1940 between the views of the Stalinist ideologue Rajani Palme Dutt and the sophisticated intellectual Leon Trotsky. This was the political dysfunction on the Left which faced the Jews on the eve of their greatest tragedy.
In the West, saving the Jews came to be seen as a consequence of winning the war. The question of what happens if there were no more Jews to save was addressed only marginally. In the East, saving the Soviet Union and exporting the revolution was paramount. Moreover, the international proletariat did not rise up against their masters. The circle of abandonment of the Jews was complete.
Soviet national interests ultimately trumped all other concerns including the meaning of socialism. Stalin’s desire to oust the British from the Middle East and to secure a Soviet presence there was a deciding factor in the Kremlin’s espousal of a Jewish state in the spring of 1947. Indeed without Stalin’s support, it is doubtful whether the UN would have voted by the mandatory two thirds majority for a two-state solution in November 1947. It is doubtful that without Stalin whether Israel would have come into existence in May 1948.
Yet Soviet Jews who applied to emigrate to Israel were quickly arrested and incarcerated for long years in the Gulag. The USSR’s external policy in Palestine dovetailed with Zionist interests. Its internal policies did not.
The Road to Utopia is paved with good intentions, but is accompanied by unexpected consequences. Today the Soviet Union no longer exists, consumed by its own contradictions.
Yet its legacy about Zionism lives on. These errors of history are carried on high while marching valiantly towards the new dawn of humanity. While the politics of virtue still attracts, many Jews remain idealists without illusions. It is this contradiction which both draws them near to and at the same time distances them from the British Left. The Road to Utopia remains open, everyone wishes to move forward, but the 20th century has taught that we do not all face in the same direction.







75 comments
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January 5, 2010 at 9:49 am
Irish
Hi Vacuum
No you didn’t – I live in Wales and Welsh I be – with an Irish Grandad. This is what I am saying – mixed inheritance my man.
Leni
January 5, 2010 at 9:57 am
Zkharya
Oh, and not forgetting the decades of state sponsored Soviet Marxist-Leninist “anti-Zionism” that also bolstered a sense of ethnicity among Soviet Jews.
January 5, 2010 at 10:18 am
Zkharya
Swmae, Leni. Sut dych chi? Dw i ddim wedi ymarfer fy Nghymraeg ers fy arholiad bellach ym mis Awst. Mae fy mam yn dod o Cork ond nawr mae hi’n byw yn Ohio, a fy Mhrawd yw’n byw yn Boston. Dw i’n ymweld yn gyfoes.
I’m sure your response will be like the Manafon farmer to his newly appointed pastor, R.S. Thomas: “Can we speak in English? Pardon me for saying so, your Welsh is bloody awful.”
Incidentally, R.S. Thomas was trained at St Michaels College, Llandaff, where I have lived while writing my PhD.
And, regardless of what you may of my views, I thinks yours generally well made and valid.
January 5, 2010 at 10:29 am
Zkharya
Also, it’s perfectly legitimate to discuss Jewish ethnicity and nationality, and deconstruct, intellectually, as you please. Just don’t expect Jews to agree with you.
But, even as conventional antisemites harped on Jews’ alien, predatory, intrusive Palestinian (or other worldly, demonic) nature in the diaspora, so their successors hard on Jews’ alien, predatory European, American etc nature when no longer in the diaspora but in Palestine.
Both have a similar goal: to alienate Jews from where they are now, and deconstruct their contemporary state, whatever it happens to be.
Even as Jewish demographics have changed, so have antisemites.
January 5, 2010 at 10:41 am
VacuumCleanersSuck
Hi Irish
“No you didn’t – I live in Wales and Welsh I be – with an Irish Grandad. This is what I am saying – mixed inheritance my man.”
Cool — or an inter-changeable inheritance, my woman.
January 5, 2010 at 11:28 am
David
==Zkharya==
It is, frankly, irrelevant how something is conceived subjectively by one or even a million people. You could probably find a million people in the world who will swear that “the Jews” were responsible for 9/11. Wouldn’t make it true now, would it?
No, what matters is the objective truth. How are we to get to this from our limited, subjective, points of view? Well, if we can at all it is by elaborating a series of tests and measuring the given subject against them.
This is precisely what Marxism has done for the concept of nationhood. As I have written above, the classical definition is that a nation is
“An historically constituted, stable community of people formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture.”
Now, if you are as you say you are a student of Greek and Roman history then you will know a great deal about this.
You will know that the dispersion of the Jews occurred *prior* to the Babylonian exile and happened through entirely natural means and for entirely natural reasons. The fact that nearly a million Jews lived in Alexandria alone is sufficient evidence for this.
You will know that only a minority of Jews, perhaps not even a third, still lived in Palestine at the time of Nebuchadnezzar.
You will know that as far back as the 5th Century BC Hebrew had ceased to be the living language of the Jews, that all the great Jewish songs and literature of this time are in Aramaic, not Hebrew. Later, they were in Greek as the Jews played an heroic part in the flowering of Hellenistic culture. The Septuagint was not an academic exercise – it was as necessary for the Alexandrian Jew who knew nothing of Hebrew as Luther’s Bible was for the German who knew nothing of Latin.
You will know that the Jews did not constitute an economic unit, rather they became city dwellers, artisans, traders – the trading people par excellence in fact; intermediaries for every other people, the Jews were the diplomatic service for antiquity.
You will know the extent to which the homogenous Jewish culture was fractured by this process of dissolution. That the Roman Jew was indeed a Roman, the Hellenic Jew (even more so) was an Hellen. At Antioch, even, the majority of Jews were converts.
Most would be proud to descend from such a rich and varied people. A people that had forged the bonds between nations, connected the world and enriched the well of human culture so much.
But no.
You, like all Zionists, are obsessed with the persecuted Jew, the cowering shtetl Jew praying for the protection of the King. The Jew defined by others and at the mercy of others.
The Emancipation doesn’t exist for you.
Spinoza doesn’t exist for you.
Heinrich Heine doesn’t exist for you.
Karl Marx doesn’t exist for you.
You see in the dispersal, the lack of a patrie to shackle the Jewish spirit, a curse rather than a blessing.
This your great misfortune.
January 5, 2010 at 12:03 pm
Zkharya
“It is, frankly, irrelevant how something is conceived subjectively by one or even a million people. You could probably find a million people in the world who will swear that “the Jews” were responsible for 9/11. Wouldn’t make it true now, would it?”
I think I disagree. I think how things and people are subjectively, or objectively, viewed is relevant.
“No, what matters is the objective truth.”
Yes. But we aren’t necessarily going to agree what is “objective”.
“How are we to get to this from our limited, subjective, points of view?”
Well, actually, I’m not sure it is possible to wholly distinguish between the subjective and objective in matters of identity, because the fact of identity is the “co-indentification” of the individual with the or a group i.e. the particular with the universal. There is necessarily a continuum between them.
“Well, if we can at all it is by elaborating a series of tests and measuring the given subject against them.”
Sure. But we aren’t necessarily going to agree on the tests, or what the results mean.
“This is precisely what Marxism has done for the concept of nationhood. As I have written above, the classical definition is that a nation is “An historically constituted, stable community of people formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture.”Now, if you are as you say you are a student of Greek and Roman history then you will know a great deal about this.”
Hmm. I’m not sure what you mean by “classical definition”. “Classical”, for me, means ancient “Hellenic, Hellenistic and/or Roman”. By their criteria, Jews were an ethnos. The definition you have given me is that of Joseph Stalin, who, by some criteria, at least, could be construed as having been, at various times, an antisemite.
What, exactly, David, are you trying to convey?
“You will know that the dispersion of the Jews occurred *prior* to the Babylonian exile and happened through entirely natural means and for entirely natural reasons. The fact that nearly a million Jews lived in Alexandria alone is sufficient evidence for this.”
Yes. Jews were deported to Babylon and Alexandria. And many voluntarily stayed and moved to places such as Alexandria. They were still regarded as a distinct, non-Greek ethnos, largely ineligible for citizenship, for instance.
“You will know that only a minority of Jews, perhaps not even a third, still lived in Palestine at the time of Nebuchadnezzar.”
Well, considering he was responsible for the exile, sure.
“You will know that as far back as the 5th Century BC Hebrew had ceased to be the living language of the Jews, that all the great Jewish songs and literature of this time are in Aramaic, not Hebrew.”
No, Hebrew was still a spoken language, in some places, and was still in use in literature and liturgy.
“Later, they were in Greek as the Jews played an heroic part in the flowering of Hellenistic culture. The Septuagint was not an academic exercise – it was as necessary for the Alexandrian Jew who knew nothing of Hebrew as Luther’s Bible was for the German who knew nothing of Latin.”
Yes. Except that Hellenistic Jewish cultural symbiosis ended in the early second century.
“You will know that the Jews did not constitute an economic unit, rather they became city dwellers, artisans, traders – the trading people par excellence in fact; intermediaries for every other people, the Jews were the diplomatic service for antiquity.”
I’m not sure which ethnic group, then, constitutes “an economic unit”. Jews were rarely diplomats in imperial Roman service.
“You will know the extent to which the homogenous Jewish culture was fractured by this process of dissolution. That the Roman Jew was indeed a Roman, the Hellenic Jew (even more so) was an Hellen. At Antioch, even, the majority of Jews were converts.”
Nope. They were rarely eligible for citizenship, and Greeks and Romans, pagan or Christian, rarely regarded Jews as either “Roman” or “Greek”.
Now, you may choose criteria to “objectify” said Jews as “Roman” or “Greek”. But given that most Romans or Greeks did not so “objectify” them, rather subjectively viewed them as neither, constitutes a kind of objective fact.
“Most would be proud to descend from such a rich and varied people.”
Odd. Because I know of little evidence for this assertion. Jewish converts became children of Abraham. That is how they saw themselves and that is, by and large, how they were regarded by those who knew anything of Jews or Judaism. They were not regarded as “Greek” or “Roman”.
“A people that had forged the bonds between nations, connected the world and enriched the well of human culture so much.”
That’s not, by and large, how pagan or Christian Greeks or Romans felt. Quite the opposite, actually.
“But no. You, like all Zionists, are obsessed with the persecuted Jew, the cowering shtetl Jew praying for the protection of the King. The Jew defined by others and at the mercy of others.”
Well, I do believe it is something to be taken into accout.
“The Emancipation doesn’t exist for you.”
Au contraire. Just that it objectively didn’t exist for most Jews who became Israeli.
“Spinoza doesn’t exist for you.”
Au contraire. And he favoured a Jewish restoration to the land, just doubted Jews could do it.
“Heinrich Heine doesn’t exist for you.”
Au contraire, but given his Christian conversion anti-Judaic, if not antisemitic turns, perhaps not the best choice.
“Karl Marx doesn’t exist for you.”
Au contraire, and likewise, albeit Christian upbringing, rather than conversion.
“You see in the dispersal, the lack of a patrie to shackle the Jewish spirit, a curse rather than a blessing.”
Well, if by “shackle the Jewish spirit”, you mean “keep Jews in the land of living”, perhaps yes, to some degree.
“This your great misfortune.”
Well, with possible reservation as to the meaning of “this” , I beg to differ.
January 5, 2010 at 1:44 pm
JerusalemMite
David – You, like all Zionists, are obsessed with the persecuted Jew, the cowering shtetl Jew praying for the protection of the King. The Jew defined by others and at the mercy of others.
Strange. I am a Zionist and not obsessed with any particular persecuted Jew.
What makes you write down a silly sentence like that?
January 5, 2010 at 2:00 pm
Zkharya
“You, like all Zionists, are obsessed with the persecuted Jew, the cowering shtetl Jew praying for the protection of the King. The Jew defined by others and at the mercy of others.”
Surely, if you’re a Marxist, you aren’t any kind of Jew at all, except as defined by others.
January 5, 2010 at 2:03 pm
Zkharya
Also, I’m not sure I am a “Zionist’. I’m sympathetic to Zionism, pro-Zionist, perhaps. I do not plan on going to Israel, much as I would like to. Then, I am quite severely crippled, and I do not plan on going anywhere much ever again.
January 5, 2010 at 4:10 pm
Fairplay
Shmucko didn’t reply to my earlier message either because he felt insulted or else was afraid to admit he’d never visited Israel and has just been regurgitating Marxist propaganda. Tant mieux. He’s just another troll.
January 6, 2010 at 12:35 am
left wing coupe
Hawkeye
A well argued and helpful article despite slightly avoiding the issue which, for some, is why Israel turned the left against it. Also, despite being calm and well presented, deals with the safe time, before the displacements the targetting and the Israeli / Arab wars when it was not so clear who the victims were.
January 6, 2010 at 2:42 am
RepublicanStones
I thought Palestinian Christians and Muslims were a dispersed, dispossessed people in exile, Republican. Come to think of it, I thought more “Irish” lived out of Ireland than in it.
Zkharya are you saying that like Judaism, people can convert to being irish or palestinian? Are you saying there is a history of prosethlyization of the irish and palestinians going round converting people to ‘Irishism’ or ‘Palestinianism’? Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that the words Irish and Palestinian denote ethnicity/nation, Judaism is, in contrast, a religion. Can Catholics claim to be nation?
January 6, 2010 at 5:10 am
Margie
Please, don’t feed the troll.
January 6, 2010 at 8:10 am
AKUS
David:
Your comment:
is so far off base that it seems its time for you to stop reading books and start visiting and maybe living in Israel.
What really gets up the nose of the Israel bashers is that Israelis are precisely the opposite of your description. They do not behave like shtetl Jews, but insist on acting directly and sometimes forcefully in their own interests, rather than cowering behind closed doors hoping the the King, the Cossacks, and the average gentile in the street will not notice them.
This is why you repeatedly hear exasperated comments about “that tiny country” not doing the world’s bidding – how dare such a small group of Jews not behave the way the rest of us would like it to (to ensure peaceful supply of oil, for example)?
Actually, as worried as I feel, from a distance, for the fate of British Jewry, it seems to me that one of British Jewry’s major problems is that the community behaves precisely like the shtetl Jews you have described, with a few notable exceptions like Jonathan Hoffman.
Finally – all the Jewish writers and thinkers you mention (you ignore the great Jewish scientists, of course) are studied more in Israel than anywhere else for the obvious reason that it is the Jewish state, intensely interested in its Jewish roots. Take a look at the curricula of the major universities in Israel, and then draw your conclusions. Furthermore, you need to add to your list people like Kafka, Buber, Roth, …. and Rashi, Yehuda Halevi, the Rambam ….
January 6, 2010 at 8:42 am
modernityblog
There is some very good points here, but also I do think we need to consider the influence of the Soviet unions’ “Anti-Zionist” foreign policy and how this was permeated out by the various CPs, as a political line, which I think in turn played a large part in influencing the post 1968 Left’s attitude towards Israel.
January 6, 2010 at 9:36 am
zkharya
‘Zkharya are you saying that like Judaism, people can convert to being irish or palestinian?’
They can become Irish by becoming Irish citizens, or marrying into Irish communities abroad, and adopting an ethnic or cultural Irish identity, for themselves and their children, which usually involves a shared or adopted Catholic identity.
‘Are you saying there is a history of prosethlyization of the irish and palestinians going round converting people to ‘Irishism’ or ‘Palestinianism’?’
In a sense, yes. For Irish, in the manner described above, with the addition of adopting an Irish cultural identity. For non- Palestinians by marrying Palestinians, and having Palestinian children (which by an large means retaining the religion of the Palestinian parent and which often
still classifies them as “refugees”), and also by adopting the Palestinian cause, which is taking an increasingly systematised and quasi-religious/ritualised form.
It all depends how long the process goes on. Exilic Judaism evolved as a means to keep Jewish identity in exile, and Palestinian Muslims and Christians have evolved, and continue to evolve, a quasi-religious system to retain their identity in their exile, a quasi-religion that is often, if not usually, intimately linked with the Palestinians’ original religious identities.
‘Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that the words Irish and Palestinian denote ethnicity/nation, Judaism is, in contrast, a religion.’
You are obviously unaware that for most of Jewish, Christian and Islamic history, Jewish identity has been ethnic as well as religious, with no clear distinction between the two.
‘Can Catholics claim to be nation?’
Not in the sense that Catholics have thought Jews to be a nation since the beginning or and for most of Catholic history.
January 6, 2010 at 9:54 am
zkharya
Apologies for silly spelling errors above.
January 6, 2010 at 10:30 am
mmemhet
AKUS
“time to stop reading books and start visiting and maybe living in Israel. ”
I just dug a foot of snow off my car and slid to the shops. My fingers are so cold I cant play the guitar. Do they take anybody?
January 6, 2010 at 1:51 pm
RepublicanStones
‘They can become Irish by becoming Irish citizens,’
So can people become jewish citizens? How do you become a citizen of religion?
In a sense, yes.
Sorry Z, but that was the biggest ball of baloney i have ever read. I asked you did the irish go round prosethlyzing and coverting people to irish and you say in a sense yes? You then say by adopting an irish cultural identity, well if they adopt it, they weren’t targets of preosethlyzation. LMAO you then claim it usually involves a catholic identity. thats two identites now, Irish and catholic, but we have irish jews, we have irish muslims, we have irish protestants.
Exilic judaism? Please when are you ever going to admit judaism exists outside of the levant because like other religions, it prosethlyzed and had converts. Why do you insist on denying an indisputable part of the history of the judaic religion?
If judaism can be seen as a nation or race, what makes it so special, that other religions cannot be seen the same? And don’t give me the ‘chosen’ nonsense.
January 6, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Zkharya
‘So can people become jewish citizens?’
In a sense, yes. One becomes a member of the house of Israel.
You’re always banging on about the depth of your knowledge of Jews and Judaism of the Hellenistic period, and its Hellenistic Jewish symbiosis. In which case you will know that, along with Philo, Josephus wrote the most extensive corpus of Hellenistic Jewish literature that survives. And what does he call Judaism? The “politeia”, or “constitution”, of the Jews, who are all, indivually, “politeis”, or “citizens”, of its “polis”, the house of Israel to which I refer above.
http://books.google.com/books?id=E9IkFOktJJgC&pg=PA228&lpg=PA228&dq=josephus+judaism+politeia&source=bl&ots=SbDTOVzjFx&sig=ICEiRgkv9LHU0siGWuMmtDk8aF8&hl=en&ei=D-ZES6DFKI2oMZK_xPEB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=josephus%20judaism%20politeia&f=false
‘How do you become a citizen of religion?’
See above.
In a sense, yes.
‘Sorry Z, but that was the biggest ball of baloney i have ever read.’
You should try reading yourself.
‘I asked you did the irish go round prosethlyzing and coverting people to irish and you say in a sense yes?’
No, you didn’t. You asked
‘Zkharya are you saying that like Judaism, people can convert to being irish or palestinian?’
But as to your second question, again, in a sense, yes. Irish and Palestinian Christians and Muslims import or export Irish culture and traditions, beliefs and practises, and conduct public relations, in the hope of converting people to them or their points of view, or to their cause. Absolutely.
“You then say by adopting an irish cultural identity, well if they adopt it, they weren’t targets of preosethlyzation.”
You mean Irish theme pubs aren’t interested in converting prospective clients to celebrating St Patricks Day, inter alia? But non-Irish marrying into Irish communities have been obviously enticed by something.
“LMAO you then claim it usually involves a catholic identity. thats two identites now, Irish and catholic, but we have irish jews, we have irish muslims, we have irish protestants.”
Not usually in foreign Irish communities, of which I was speaking. And I said “usually” with regard to Catholicism, allowing for the Protestantism of some North American Irish.
“Exilic judaism? Please when are you ever going to admit judaism exists outside of the levant because like other religions, it prosethlyzed and had converts.”
Well, it is one reason Judaism exists outside the land. It is not all reasons.
“Why do you insist on denying an indisputable part of the history of the judaic religion?”
Where do I so insist?
“If judaism can be seen as a nation or race, what makes it so special, that other religions cannot be seen the same?”
But it is as to “ethnicity” that Christianity and Islam have precisely distinguished themselves from Judaism, Jews’ and Judaism’s being regarded as more so than they.
“And don’t give me the ‘chosen’ nonsense.””
Again, the only one concerned with ‘race” or “chosenness”, is you i.e. you sound like a fairly common or garden antisemite, who obsesses, negatively, over Jewish ethnicity while promoting his own Irish kind. Unfortunately, that has proven a not unusual trend in European nationalisms.
January 6, 2010 at 4:17 pm
Zkharya
oops, forgetting my Greek:
“citizens” should be “politai”. I confused it with the plural of “polis”, “poleis”.
January 6, 2010 at 5:03 pm
RepublicanStones
Z Josephus lived when, in the first century CE. Are you inferring there was no prosethlyzation or conversion after that?
And what does he call Judaism? The “politeia”, or “constitution”, of the Jews, who are all, indivually, “politeis”, or “citizens”, of its “polis”, the house of Israel to which I refer above
So if a writer calls all catholics politeis that would suffice would it?
No, you didn’t. You asked
Eh no i did ask that..here let me remind you…
Are you saying there is a history of prosethlyization of the irish and palestinians going round converting people to ‘Irishism’ or ‘Palestinianism’?
Well has there been?
Irish and Palestinian Christians and Muslims import or export Irish culture and traditions, beliefs and practises, and conduct public relations, in the hope of converting people to them or their points of view, or to their cause. Absolutely.
Z, you’re really grasping at straws there lol. Converts to Irishism is it? Fair enough. So does that rank alongside the history of conversion to judaism? How about the history of conversion to Christianity, does an irishman opening a pub overseas equate to those?
It is not all reasons
Pray tell Z, what are the other reasons?
Again, the only one concerned with ‘race” or “chosenness”, is you i.e. you sound like a fairly common or garden antisemite, who obsesses, negatively, over Jewish ethnicity while promoting his own Irish kind. Unfortunately, that has proven a not unusual trend in European nationalisms.
Well you can rest assured im no jew-hater. Anti-semite is a bit of a misnomer isn’t it. Many Jews are not semitic at all, what with the history of conversion. No Z, im merely concerned with the truth. And the zionist narrative of Judaism’s history is anything but that. I realise that Judaism is merely a religion, I acknowledge there are no defining characteristics which distingush jews from members of other religions. I still would like to know if as you claim world Jewry constitute a race or an ethnicity what links a persian jew, a falasha and a brooklyn jew save their religion?
Ever hear of the Himyarites? Or the jewish Berbers? I know you have heard of the khazars. Im sure you know about the parts of the Jewish scripture which forbid proesthlyzation, but are you aware of the parts that encourage it?
January 6, 2010 at 6:16 pm
Zkharya
“Z Josephus lived when, in the first century CE. Are you inferring there was no prosethlyzation or conversion after that?”
Neither implying nor inferring. There was conversion in Josephus’ time too.
“So if a writer calls all catholics politeis that would suffice would it?”
Well, Paul specifically says Christians’ “politeuma”, “citizenship”, is in heaven. I guess that must suffice.
“Eh no i did ask that..here let me remind you…Are you saying there is a history of prosethlyization of the irish and palestinians going round converting people to ‘Irishism’ or ‘Palestinianism’?”
Not originally, you asked
“‘Zkharya are you saying that like Judaism, people can convert to being irish or palestinian?’”
And I have already answered your second question. I iterate: in a sense, yes. Irish and Palestinian Christians and Muslims import or export Irish culture and traditions, beliefs and practises, and conduct public relations, in the hope of converting people to them or their points of view, or to their cause. Absolutely.
Well has there been?
See above, with the addition of, Remember NORAID?
“Z, you’re really grasping at straws there lol.”
I beg to differ.
“Converts to Irishism is it? Fair enough. So does that rank alongside the history of conversion to judaism?”
It depends how you define “rank”. It certainly may be compared, for the reasons I have given.
It might, given time. If the Irish were to be dispossessed of the Republic and land of Ireland, and scattered around the world, and persecuted and discriminated against, they might very well develop such a religious system of identity, to which others could convert in a more equivalent manner.
But the history of Irish and Jews has, hitherto, been different. And the Jews as a people, ethnos, genos or nation, have been around a lot longer than the Irish.
“How about the history of conversion to Christianity, does an irishman opening a pub overseas equate to those?”
It depends. In some ways, more to a Jew opening a pub overseas, I’d say. Since the preservation of Irish identity has a more ethnic identity than a purely Christian. But it may well have a culturally religious aspect. It some ways it might more like a Christian, since the cultural aspects he is trying to impart or sell may have more universal appeal than Jewish ones. It depends.
If he is promoting the Palestinian Muslim and Christian national cause, like you, through the medium of Irish culture or by comparison with Irish nationalism, again, it might constitute the attempt to impart something which he or she thinks has a more universal appeal, beyond strictly ethnic boundaries, so it might well, in his eyes, and others’, bear more comparison with Christian evangelism than with Judaism.
“Pray tell Z, what are the other reasons?”
Expulsion, deportation and migration. The two largest Jewish communities outside the land, in Babylonia and Egypt, were founded on deported communities, followed, in Alexandria’s case, by subsequent migration of excess population from the land. It is likely that the communities in Asia Minor and elsewhere were also founded by migrants.
Again, the only one concerned with ‘race” or “chosenness”, is you i.e. you sound like a fairly common or garden antisemite, who obsesses, negatively, over Jewish ethnicity while promoting his own Irish kind. Unfortunately, that has proven a not unusual trend in European nationalisms.
“Well you can rest assured im no jew-hater.”
Just a Jewish people hater or deconstructor. No doubt you are full of boundless love for the less than 2000 Irish Jews and merely reserve you urge to “deconstruct” for the second or largest, and certainly most obviously, Jewish community in the world, the Jewish state of Israel.
Speaking as someone whose mother hails from Cork city, with two uncles in Dublin, I can tell you that few Irish Jews would have much love for you.
“Anti-semite is a bit of a misnomer isn’t it.”
Not really. You both have an negative obsession with Jewish “race”, while pursuing a highly positive one with your own, Republican.
“Many Jews are not semitic at all,”
Well, an antisemite in the 21st century would say that, wouldn’t he? In 1900 80% of the world’s Jews lived in Old World Christendom and Islam, and the antisemite said they were alien, intrusive, predatory semitic Judeans/Palestinians.
Now that most of their surviving descendants have been purged from said Old World Christendom and Islam, so that the Jewish state of Israel is the second or largest Jewish community in the world i.e. are largely in Palestine, the antisemite’s 21st century successor says that they are alien, intrusive, predatory non-semitic Judeans/Palestinians.
20th century and 21st antisemites both have the same goal: to alienate Jews whence they are NOW, and to deconstruct their PRESENT state.
“what with the history of conversion.”
See above.
“No Z, im merely concerned with the truth. And the zionist narrative of Judaism’s history is anything but that.”
Most academics in Jewish history I know are sympathetic to Israel and Zionism, as I know were many if not most in the past. Their narratives of Jewish history are what Sand uses to construct his.
“I realise that Judaism is merely a religion,”
Whatever “merely a religion” means.
“I acknowledge there are no defining characteristics which distingush jews from members of other religions.”
What does “defining characteristics” mean? Clearly it doesn’t mean “differences”.
“I still would like to know if as you claim world Jewry constitute a race or an ethnicity”
Well, it depends what you mean by “race”. “Race” originally meant very much what is now meant by “ethnicity”. In antiquity Jews were considered a “genos”, for very much the same reason. But the meaning of “race” has changed in convential use, so, I would plump for “ethnic group” rather than “race”.
“what links a persian jew, a falasha and a brooklyn jew save their religion?”
Well, usually Mizrachim and Ashkenazim have more in common genetically than with Falashmurim, though there are surprises, such as the Cohen haplotype with the Lemba. But Falashmur account for a very small part of world Jewry.
“Ever hear of the Himyarites?”
Yep. And it is thought that the presence of Jews in the Arabian peninsula increased markedly after the Horban. Which is likely one reason Muhammed addresses the Jews of Makkah and Madinah as though they themselves had been dispossessed by Rome (Al Isra’, Sura 17).
“Or the jewish Berbers?”
I do. Of all 2000 of them. Now in France. And gene tests do not bolster the theory of Judaisation of the Berber population. Sand is a non-specialist in Jewish genetics as well as history.
“I know you have heard of the khazars. Im sure you know about the parts of the Jewish scripture which forbid proesthlyzation,”
Then you are surely wrong. Which parts are those?
“but are you aware of the parts that encourage it?”
Well, permit it, sure.
January 11, 2010 at 5:56 pm
RepublicanStones
There was conversion in Josephus’ time too.
As tends to happen with RELIGIONS
I iterate: in a sense, yes
In what sense? In whose sense? In your sense?
Remember NORAID
What in hells bells has a fund raising outift got to do with the price of milk???!!!!!
If the Irish were to be dispossessed of the Republic and land of Ireland, and scattered around the world
World Jewry wasn’t. You are aware the tale of all the Jews of the Holy Land being expelled is jut that… a tale. Nevermind the fact that world jewry, as is the same with other religions, consists of many types of peoples who converted and have nothing to do with the levant.
And the Jews as a people, ethnos, genos or nation, have been around a lot longer than the Irish.
Many religions predate the irish.
Not really. You both have an negative obsession with Jewish “race”, while pursuing a highly positive one with your own, Republican
Negative no. I just realise that Judaism is merely a religion, nothing more. You are aware that the irish come from Ireland speak the same language, world jewry do not, as happens to be the case with say, the worlds protestants or the worlds catholics.
BTW your extrapolation of nation and race based open a vinters licence was worth logging on alone.
Well, usually Mizrachim and Ashkenazim have more in common genetically than with Falashmurim, though there are surprises, such as the Cohen haplotype with the Lemba. But Falashmur account for a very small part of world Jewry.
Wow a jew (am i bold to presume) encouraging the use of genetic purity testing…truly a strange world. Does that mean if I share a halotype with a central european I can go and aquire land there by force? (Desist from the ‘well if you had been exiled…), serious question? Does that also mean a guy sitting in Bavaria and I are members of the same nation/race?Furthermore you seem to be clinging on to the dna evidence which Sands destroyed in his book. You claim he’s no expert, but I doubt very much you are. Zionism is truly scraping the barrel if it needs to resort to genetic purity tests to try and create itself a race. It amazes me how anyone in this day and age actually supports such nonsense. So I’ll ask again apart from their religion, what do a persian jew or a Brooklyn jew or a falasha share, culturally, lingusitically etc? What connects these people apart form their religion?
And it is thought that the presence of Jews in the Arabian peninsula increased markedly after the Horban
Really so there were no jews there before that?
I do. Of all 2000 of them. Now in France.
And let me guess, they belong to the same race as Lenoard Cohen and Woddy Allen?
Then you are surely wrong. Which parts are those?
Apologies, my mistake I thought one of the Talmuds said something bad about accepting converts.
Well, permit it, sure.
Indeed just like other religions.