This is a guest post by AKUS
WellofSense’s article Georgina and Matt; a reality check has really got me thinking about the inner workings at the Guardian.
The changes at CiF certainly are interesting, and may indeed be due to the economic situation and its impact on advertising revenue. That is not trivial, and around the world newspapers are struggling to exist.
However, it seems to me that the growing drumbeat of opposition to the Guardian’s bias across the blogosphere, the Guardian’s chosen battlefield for its attacks on Israel and British Jewry, the revelations about internal issues such as the BellaM affair, and the focus on collecting and exposing the antisemitism and fallacies (lies) about Israel and Jews that have been the meat and potatoes of the site, “Comment is Free”, that CiF Watch in particular has focused on, have had a significant effect
The “hard news” crowd, worried about the sales of the print version, may have been less focused on what was appearing in the blog as long as ad revenues grew. If there has been a decline, it may have forced those on the more traditional side to take note of the activities of Henry, Seaton and Whitaker, who have been running a propaganda campaign for a Stalinst/Trotskyite/radical Islam alliance through their control of content on CiF. Advertisers may be taking note that this does not accord with the goals they have for their advertising, nor is the collection of antisemites, weirdos, conspiracy freaks, jihadists and would-be jihadis and assorted nutcases attracted to CiF likely to be their target market.
Serious commentators condemning CiF daily like Robin Shepherd or Yaakov Lozowick cannot be lightly dismissed, and the Guardian may hate and ridicule Melanie Phillips but she has a very large readership and her reporting has done much to undermine the Guardian’s reputation. Just as an example of the difference in reach, her book “Londonistan” has been published world wide with considerably more success than other books put out by its stable of Theobald Jews and antisemites that the Guardian has relentlessly tried to promote to its readership. I have seen it in stores across America and Canada, and have yet to see one of the Guardian’s favorite sons’ “works” show up.
Like many others, I stumbled across the Guardian’s website and its CiF Israeli obsession while looking for some of the old reporting we used to read with interest, even admiration, and could hardly believe what I was reading. It was like looking onto a topsy-turvey universe, where up is down, black is white, and a determined attempt was being made to describe Israelis in particular and Jews in general in terms that Goebbels would not have hesitated to use while every Moslem atrocity was ignored, brushed aside, or blamed on the victims.
Thus in terms of We can afford to be choosy by Douglas Murray, he hits the nail on the head with this paragraph:
I think we can do – indeed we have to do – better than this. Let me give an example. Those of us who are friendly towards the Israeli state often notice that in Britain at any rate there is a form of anti-Israeli-ism somewhat distinct from the more rabid recent varieties. It tends to be held by British people of the older generation who will tell you that the Israeli state was founded on terrorism. They cite the acts of such groups as the Irgun and Stern gangs.
Those who watched the video of the antisemitic sad sack screaming at the camera outside the caroling hate-fest in Bloomsbury the other night will recognise the reference. In the same vein, I stumbled across a recording of the vile Gerald Kaufman speaking in parliament, claiming to have been best buddies with Ben Gurion, Golda, Abba Eban – you name a significant Israeli or Jewish leader , he was their friend – and in his horrendous English pronunciation of Hebrew, mouthing the names of the Stern gang and the Irgun as if it happened yesterday, while invoking the death of his grandmother in the Holocaust to claim that Israelis are the same as Nazis. A trope picked up and endlessly repeated by Seth Freedman until finally, through this site, I was able to publish the collection of his puerile but vile Nazi analogies. The Guardian, never shy about publishing them in his articles, relentlessly deleted the list every time I published it on CiF.
The institutionalization of this kind of hatred – what I think of as the “brainwashing of Britain” – is, I think, unequalled even among the other EU countries. Its extraordinary effectiveness is how it has been accepted by many of the very people who will one day be its victims – the 300,000 or so Jews in Britain, with a few brave and notable exceptions such as Jonathan Hoffman. Never since WWII have so few been so attacked by so many for so little reason.
The Guardian has made it its business to be the standard bearer for this attack on Israel and British Jews, through its support of radical Islam, reports such as the Dispatches program, the Carol Churchill play, its disgusting antisemitic cartoons, and the protection it gives to those who relentlessly attack Israel and the defence of those who call for Israel’s destruction in the columns it publishes and the comments it retains on its website – a destruction of the State of Israel which actually means the deaths of some 6 million Jews, once again.
It is a shocking story, and may yet result in people one day mentioning the Guardian and Der Sturmer in the same breath.





78 comments
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December 9, 2009 at 1:01 am
JerusalemMite
AKUS – Dr Ray Priest , Principal says: “ Our young people, of all faiths, have been enthusiastic about the Viva Palestina convoy right from the start. We all feel that no children anywhere should suffer like those in Gaza, Palestine. ”
What an ignorant statement by a school principal.
No wonder that the UK is ‘going to the dogs’.
December 9, 2009 at 1:50 am
exiledlondoner
Hi AKUS,
“Exiled – yes – banned but not gone …”
I never thought you would be gone – life isn’t that simple
“I compare the level of debate here with that on the CiF threads, and there is no comparison, despite the occasional flame, so perhaps it’s all for the best.”
Something about “the eye of the beholder” springs to mind. As I’ve said elsewhere, I’m not so sure a casual visitor would see it that way – to me, the level of unchallenged hatred is rather higher than you imply.
“But it seems to me that you have avoided commenting on the content of the article in favor of the more contentious Hebron issue.”
Well spotted! I had no intention of joining another thread – I’m spread too thinly as it is, and off traveling soon – but zkharya’s post caught my eye.
December 9, 2009 at 2:20 am
exiledlondoner
AKUS,
“exiled – I am pondering whether to write something about hebron, and dispute your argument about the legality of Jewish settlement there, but that is a different topic.”
It is, and wasn’t the central point I was making – there are settlers and settlers.
“All I’ll say right now is that from a pragmatic point of view I think it is foolish of Israel to allow Jews to live in Hebron before an agreement is reached with the Palestinians, as they act as a specially nasty irrtitant in an already difficult environment. The fact that they may have every right to be there does not mean that it is the smartest thing in the world to exercise that right.”
Again leaving aside the legal issues, do you think that the “specially nasty irrtitant” is that they are there, or who is there? I would say that their presence is an irritant, but the specially nasty bit comes from their behaviour.
“Here, taken from the recent CIF article on Hebron is another example of what I consider brainwashing, albeit this time from the mouths of two American Jews. Note the use of “routinely attack” followed by three isolated examples from 15 – 20 years ago:”
Not every view contrary to yours is brainwashing.
<<<>>>
B’Tselem are not exactly Islamic Jihad – the attacks from the Hebron settlers are a matter of record.
<<<>>>
What’s the difference between citing the 1929 massacre, and the 1994 massacre?
<<<>>>
Sounds like a complete tosser, and we’ve all heard similar crap from other members and supporters of the Hebron extremists.
“Along with a few other examples, these become part of the endless recitation of Palestinian grievances, floating there abstracted from any context such as the mental health of Goldstein (compare that with the Guardian’s vigorous attempts to show that Nidal Hassan was mentally unstable and therefore not responsible for the murder of 13 Americans at Ft Hood) and with no reference to the intifadas and ther acts of Palestinian violence – as if all the violence is perpetrated by Jews.”
But AKUS – this is no different from the endless recital of Palestinian crimes here on CIF Watch, often presented without any context, or obvious link to the subject. I don’t consider it to be intelligent debate, but then I don’t set the rules for other posters – how many times has Petra managed to squeeze the Mufti, Nazis and Palestinians into the same sentence?
I’ve said a number of times that I’ve pretty much given up discussing history – it’s so politicised and polarising, it only serves to derail debate. My interest in history is only in so far as it directly affects the future – neither the Mufti or Goldstein deserve to do so.
“Students at the City Academy School in Bristol have been writing POSTCARDS TO GAZA. On Monday 30 th November, they were handed to the convoy which will deliver them to a school in Gaza. The youngsters also donated boxes of stationery together with sacks of cuddly toys.”
What’s wrong with that? Would you have had a problem if the school was in Sderot?
“Dr Ray Priest , Principal says: “ Our young people, of all faiths, have been enthusiastic about the Viva Palestina convoy right from the start. We all feel that no children anywhere should suffer like those in Gaza, Palestine. ”
Do you disagree with him?
“But a moment’s reflection will give you a list of places where children really are suffering much worse than in Gaza – pick almost any African or Asian country, with rampant child labor, child soldiers, child beggars, poverty, starvation (no UNRWA for them), disease. Yet these children are being brainwashed systematically to think that the worst suffering in the world is in Gaza even though it is patently obvious that this is not the case.”
Are they? Don’t schools do similar things in other countries and other war zones? In just how many other places at that time were children being subjected to sustained air attack?
The problem is that you, along with many others here, resent anyone displaying any empathy with Palestinians, whatever the circumstances. You might decide that any such empathy is contrary to Israel’s interests, but you have to understand that for many, Israel’s interests aren’t the first thing that comes to mind when they see hundreds of children being killed by Israeli attacks. Many may not take sides, but feeling empathy for children in a war zone is not a political statement.
December 9, 2009 at 2:21 am
exiledlondoner
Oops – sorry for the formatting mess. One day I’ll learn to do it properly.
December 9, 2009 at 3:16 am
exiledlondoner
The central part should read…..
Not every view contrary to yours is brainwashing.
“Settlers and the Israeli army routinely attack and terrorise Palestinians in Hebron, according to human rights groups such as B’Tselem in Israel.”
B’Tselem are not exactly Islamic Jihad – the attacks from the Hebron settlers are a matter of record.
“In 1994, Hebron settler Baruch Goldstein massacred 29 unarmed Palestinians who were praying in a Hebron mosque.”
What’s the difference between citing the 1929 massacre, and the 1994 massacre?
“One of the honorees at the 2009 Hebron Fund dinner, Noam Arnon, called Goldstein “an extraordinary person” in 1995. In 1990 Arnon called three Jewish terrorists who were convicted of killing three Palestinians and maiming two Palestinian mayors “heroes”.”
Sounds like a complete tosser, and we’ve all heard similar crap from other members and supporters of the Hebron extremists.
December 9, 2009 at 3:22 am
JerusalemMite
Exiled – I don’t consider it to be intelligent debate, but then I don’t set the rules for other posters – how many times has Petra managed to squeeze the Mufti, Nazis and Palestinians into the same sentence?
I don’t think that fair. Especially not fair to Petra. If there is a good example of Palestinian thinking 60 to 70 years ago, when the Mufti was considered to be the spokesman for the Arab Palestinians, his Nazi associations are very often paramount to the discussions. His ‘mindset’. His frame of reference. And the historical documents are preserved however much ‘revisionists’ are trying to bury their information.
That mindset seems to be very much duplicated in the mindset of Hamas NOW. In 2009.
Do you doubt for one single small part of a minute second that if there was a surviving Nazi regime, (OMG),somewhere in the world today, Hamas would not be banging at its door?
However, not all Palestinians are Hamas.
But the reference is well founded and true and people need to be reminded of it occasionally.
December 9, 2009 at 3:26 am
JerusalemMite
exiledlondoner
Sounds like a complete tosser, and we’ve all heard similar crap from other members and supporters of the Hebron extremists.
Well.
There’s something that we can agree about.
December 9, 2009 at 3:59 am
exiledlondoner
JerusalemMite,
“I don’t think that fair. Especially not fair to Petra. If there is a good example of Palestinian thinking 60 to 70 years ago, when the Mufti was considered to be the spokesman for the Arab Palestinians, his Nazi associations are very often paramount to the discussions. His ‘mindset’. His frame of reference. And the historical documents are preserved however much ‘revisionists’ are trying to bury their information.”
I’m not disputing the historical evidence about the Mufti’s activities, nor Petra’s right to raise them – I’m suggesting that by raising them repeatedly, in response to anything that involves Palesatinians, she is making a point of propaganda (linking Palestinians with Nazis), rather than any historical point.
Much the same point could be made to various actions of Zionists – one could (and can) drag up any number of unsavoury incidents or characters, and seek to tarnish modern Israelis with the association.
My preference is not to go down either road. I don’t think they help in the search for a peaceful future. The dead, while important, are dead – any solution needs to take account of the living.
“That mindset seems to be very much duplicated in the mindset of Hamas NOW. In 2009.”
That depends which mindset you mean? Hamas are religious extremists – not Nazis. Calling Islamic extremists Nazis is as lazy as calling Zionist extremists Nazis.
“Do you doubt for one single small part of a minute second that if there was a surviving Nazi regime, (OMG),somewhere in the world today, Hamas would not be banging at its door?”
Possibly, but I’m not so sure that the door would be opening. The Nazi Mufti connection was a marriage of convenience, and the Mufti was coming from a very different starting point to that of Hamas. I would suspect that a contemporary Nazi regime would be using Islamic extremism as something to attack, not defend.
“However, not all Palestinians are Hamas.”
Very true, though according to some, half of Britain “are all Hezbollah”
“But the reference is well founded and true and people need to be reminded of it occasionally.”
How often is occaisionally? I used to play a game on Petra’s threads – count the Muftis….
“There’s something that we can agree about.”
This is something that gives me hope. However appalling the Hebron mob, and similar groups are, I don’t think that most Israelis, or most Zionists, support them – many regard them as being seriously damaging to Israel and its reputation.
One wonders what idiots in the Israeli administration think that they, the women in green, and the hilltop youth, are worth defending? I can’t believe that a security system that can prevent Palestinian nutters going one way, can’t prevent Israeli nutters going the other.
December 9, 2009 at 5:28 am
Margie in Tel Aviv
ExiledLondoner: You say
Israel’s interests aren’t the first thing that comes to mind when they see hundreds of children being killed by Israeli attacks.
These children will remember that it was evil Israelis who killed the Gaza children without being made aware of the background. It is obviously not relevant that Hamas fought from among these children and that the children in Sderot could never play outdoors or go to school without being terrified and threatened by missiles, since the children in Sderot were left out of the love and generosity.
Through being misinformed by their teachers and the media they will grow up to see Israel as their enemy. It may not be Israel’s interests that are served but they are certainly serving Hamas!
December 9, 2009 at 6:16 am
exiledlondoner
Margie,
“These children will remember that it was evil Israelis who killed the Gaza children without being made aware of the background. It is obviously not relevant that Hamas fought from among these children and that the children in Sderot could never play outdoors or go to school without being terrified and threatened by missiles, since the children in Sderot were left out of the love and generosity.”
So in the North London schools that had collections for the children of Sderot, they will remember that it was evil Palestinians who attacked the Sderot children without being made aware of the background?
Show me the indoctrination, and I will condemn it, but collecting for children in a war zone – one in which hundreds of children were killed – is not indoctrination.
Children are vulnerable to indoctrination – it saddens me that both sides in the dispute seem to think nothing of twisting children’s minds, but I honestly don’t believe it’s a one-way street.
As a side issue, I have some personal experience of this. As a five year old, in a catholic school, I remember being told by an Irish nun that “the Jews killed Jesus” – to a five year old, “Jesus” doesn’t mean the bloke with a beard, it means the baby Jesus.
Thankfully, it was a few years before I realised that the kids I played football with in the street were mostly Jewish, and by then I was old enough to not take any notice – but it did illustrate for me how careful you have to be with children.
Now if this program was sold to the kids as “the children of Gaza being attacked by evil Israelis”, then I’m with you 100%, but if, as you suggest, kids are told “that Hamas fought from among these children and that the children in Sderot could never play outdoors or go to school without being terrified and threatened by missiles”, that is every bit as bad. That’s not context, it’s merely the competing propaganda.
December 9, 2009 at 6:18 am
peterthehungarian
Exiledlondoner
I agrre with many things you wrote on this (and other) threads but…
What’s wrong with that? Would you have had a problem if the school was in Sderot?
There is nothing wrong to encourage children to help others but in this case we speak about something totally different. There are natural disasters, wars etc with millions of victims and children must be educated to help them. I personally wouldn’t say a word against organizing donations in English schools to help the children of Gaza and Sderot as both of these groups are innocent victims. But this headmaster clearly has other purpose – political indoctrination of small children. If this school was a Jewish institution organizing help to Israelis only or a Muslim school collecting donations for the Gaza childrens only I could explain this off saying that they educate their students to show solidarity with other children belonging to the same national/religious group (not my piece of cake but one can find the logic in it). As far as I know this is not the case, this principal is simply cynically using his power on small kids to indoctrinate and to educate not solidarity – but hate, in this case against Israel.
As you certainly know most children are not familiar with politics and/or history – they see everything black and white and if they were told that there are child victims in Gaza they obviously will ask who is the perpetrator? Do you think this child abuser will explain them a complex political situation mentioning the role of both sides?
You are defending here the indefensible.
December 9, 2009 at 6:22 am
peterthehungarian
Sorry Exiled I sent my last post before reading your answer to Margie.
Show me the indoctrination, and I will condemn it, but collecting for children in a war zone – one in which hundreds of children were killed – is not indoctrination.
This fellow was collecting for children in a war zone – but only for one side.
This is called indoctrination in my book.
December 9, 2009 at 6:31 am
exiledlondoner
Hi Peter,
“There is nothing wrong to encourage children to help others but in this case we speak about something totally different. There are natural disasters, wars etc with millions of victims and children must be educated to help them. I personally wouldn’t say a word against organizing donations in English schools to help the children of Gaza and Sderot as both of these groups are innocent victims. But this headmaster clearly has other purpose – political indoctrination of small children.”
I’m not saying that this wasn’t the case – I don’t know (more info would be good). What I’m saying is that it is perfectly possible to collect for children in a war zone, without taking sides.
If you have information that he had other motives, please tell me. I’m not defending him – I’m saying that the information I’ve been given isn’t, for me, enough to come to the conclusion that many have.
“If this school was a Jewish institution organizing help to Israelis only or a Muslim school collecting donations for the Gaza childrens only I could explain this off saying that they educate their students to show solidarity with other children belonging to the same national/religious group (not my piece of cake but one can find the logic in it).”
Not my piece of cake either. Wouldn’t it be great if Jewish schools collected for the children of Gaza, and Muslim schools for the children of Sderot? Now that would be a useful lesson.
“As far as I know this is not the case, this principal is simply cynically using his power on small kids to indoctrinate and to educate not solidarity – but hate, in this case against Israel.”
If you have evidence of that, I will be delighted to support you.
“As you certainly know most children are not familiar with politics and/or history – they see everything black and white and if they were told that there are child victims in Gaza they obviously will ask who is the perpetrator? Do you think this child abuser will explain them a complex political situation mentioning the role of both sides?”
I don’t know. I touched on this in my previous post. You could easily explain even something as complex as a war to children, without teaching hatred – children are remarkably able to absorb quite complex concepts – but it would be even easier to teach them to hate.
“You are defending here the indefensible.”
I’m not defending – I’ve just got my sceptical hat on.
December 9, 2009 at 6:37 am
peterthehungarian
Exiled
If you have evidence of that, I will be delighted to support you.
I’ have very limited info on this matter but read this
http://palestinian.ning.com/profiles/blogs/bristol-school-send-postcards
“Viva Palestine” campaing is a farce organized by Gerge Galloway.
December 9, 2009 at 6:49 am
exiledlondoner
Hi Peter,
Haven’t seen the Galloway connection, but I must admit, it doesn’t look too good – irrespective of what the Headmaster said to the kids, an organisation with a website full of photos of dead bodies isn’t really appropriate.
Looking at the picture of the school children, they seem largely Muslim, but it surely isn’t beyond the wit of the school to find a non-political aid group to work with, rather than one with “Free Palestine – end the occupation” written on their truck?
To be honest, just bringing that truck to the school was idiotic.
December 9, 2009 at 6:50 am
peterthehungarian
An other source
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/12/08/no-british-school-should-be-supporting-this-organisation/
December 9, 2009 at 7:09 am
AKUS
peterthehungarian – thanks for that link. As usual, a picture is worth a thousand words (even a thousand of mine
). If proof of the brainwashing that is going on is needed, those pictures and the comments on that website provide it.
December 9, 2009 at 7:22 am
peterthehungarian
AKUS
google “dr ray priest” and you will find everything about this “Priest” of hate. His institution is funded by the government and…
“The Academy receives c. £12.5m annually from private charitable donations, approximately three times the annual budget received by state schools of a comparable size.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Academy,_Bristol
Could be interesting to know who are these private charitable organisations…
December 9, 2009 at 8:14 am
exiledlondoner
Peter,
“The Academy receives c. £12.5m annually from private charitable donations, approximately three times the annual budget received by state schools of a comparable size”
Ah, this is a pet project of professional liar and peacemaker Tony Blair. He had this clever idea that rich people could put some money into a school, and then decide what would be taught there.
It’s proved very popular with wealthy religious maniacs, creationists, and fruitcakes of various obsessions – rather apt considering our Tone is nothing if not a little deranged.
A certain Reg Varny – Nissan car dealer and born-again rapture ready loon – has an academy in the North East that teaches that the world was born yesterday (or something like that?), and other scientific fact-like stuff.
“Could be interesting to know who are these private charitable organisations…”
From the school website – Part of the Academies programme, The City Academy, Bristol is sponsored by John Laycock (who is also Chair of Governors) and the University of the West of England whose Vice Chancellor is President of the school.
I can’t tell you much about Laycock, other than he owns football and rugby teams – but there will be something in his background, I’m sure.
December 9, 2009 at 10:01 am
Israelita
As a child, after WW2 (in which my refugee father fought in the British Army until demobbed in 1946) I learnt on my tender flesh how deep anti-semitism lurks within many British souls & thus don’t understand how 300,000 UK Jews are so surprised at what is happening now.
Long before the Guardian and Independent (and the arrival of Moslem immigrants from Pakistan & Arabia) appeared on the scene (but not before Israel-JewHate spouting BBC) turned the UK into one of the most anti-semitic/anti-Israel countries in the world today, there was already so much JewHatred that I was verbally and physically attacked by fellow pupils as a ‘dirty Jew,’ a ‘Christ killer’ (which I emphatically denied…but to no avail) and advised in no uncertain terms to “go back to ******* palestine (later Israel) where you come from”.
I had no idea what they were talking about so after wiping the blood from my nose, I went to look up Israel at the local library and by the time I was 12 I was a die-hard Zionist. All this without any help from my parents even though my mother’s brother had been in ‘palestine’ since 1921 and had begged (unsuccessfully) his entire family in not-yet-Nazi Austria to sell up and come there before Europe turned into the Jewish people’s graveyard (a phrase undoubtedly gathered from Zeev Jabotinsky who prophesied on the dreadful fate of European Jewry in lectures throughout Europe in the early 1920′s, long before the Holocaust was a ‘twinkle’ in Hitler’s eyes).
I finally left Britain for my ‘******* homeland’ Israel in 1961. What infuriates me is that the children/grandchildren of those who had ‘advised’ me as an innocent, blameless child to ‘return’ to my ‘own country’, are now the ones telling me that, hey, you bloody Jew, give ‘palestine’ back to the Arabs, get out of there you land-grabbing, illegal ‘settler and go back to ‘east’ Europe where you came from…!!! If it weren’t so despicable it would be almost funny but it certainly makes my blood boil.
The fact is that in Arab and their Jew-hating allies’ eyes all Israeli Jews, whether they’ve lived there for centuries or not, or whether they they live in Tel Aviv or Hebron (the 1st Jewish city), are ‘illegal, land grabbing
‘settlers’ in a country (10,000 sq. miles in all) belonging to the Arabs (with their 5 million sq. miles of land) & not the Jews…even though Jews have lived there nonstop for 4000 years and, in spite of frequent foreign invasions, massacres and expulsions, was never completely ‘cleansed’ their homeland.
Sometimes one wonders if it’s ever going to stop, this satanic deligitimization of the Jewish people’s inalienable Right to live anywhere they wish in their ancient Homeland!
It is also forgotten/ignored that although Jordan is part and parcel of the ancient Jewish Homeland, and was included in the Balfour Declaration to be restored the Jewish people, the British gave it away to a Saudi chieftain of the Hashemite tribe, who immediately turned it into an apartheid country where Jews were forbidden from even setting down a foot, let alone owning land & living there. And so it continues today.
Whereas Israel has 1.4 million Arab (Moslem & Christian), Druse & other non-Jewish citizens enjoying its democratic, NON-apartheid freedoms, Jews are not allowed to visit, let alone live in Arab countries.
Indeed, between 1945 to the mid-’60′s, nearly ONE MILLION Jews were expelled from Arab countries (out of which 650,000+ arrived in Israel as penniless refugees, but who never received any aid from the UN or any foreign ‘refugee’ charity whatsoever) after suffering persecution (including massacres, rapes and public hangings) ans being despoiled of their properties, bank accounts, etc., allowed only the clothes on their backs and, if they were lucky, a suitcase. These ‘Arab’ Jewish refugees have still not received any compensation from Arab countries for their plight.
December 9, 2009 at 12:02 pm
exiledlondoner
Israelita,
I don’t think many people in Britain, including British Jews, would recognise your description of Britain.
I don’t think many people in Israel, including Israeli Jews, would support your vision of Israel.
If what happened in Britain had any part in turning you into what you are now, then I’m very sorry.
December 9, 2009 at 1:31 pm
RepublicanStones
It is also forgotten/ignored that although Jordan is part and parcel of the ancient Jewish Homeland and was included in the Balfour Declaration
Israelita, what right had the British to give anyones land away? It seems some people still think imperialism was morally correct. And by the way, it is forgotten by most on here, that judaism has a rich history of prosethlyzation and conversion. So the idea that the Levant is the ancient home of world jewry, is just that….an idea.
I suppose now Im anti-semitic for having a decent grasp of history?
December 9, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Irish
Israelita
I am sorry about your childhood expereince – that probably sounds a bit lame I know. That there is discrimination cannot be deied and those subjected to it do suffer.
Leni
AKUS
Read this yesterday – been pondering it.
Can you, outside a totalitarian country – brainwash a whole nation ? Don’t disagree that some are influenced by propaganda be it religious or political – see the AS rant outside the church.
There are still a lot of free thinkers in UK who do not accept everything thrown at them in predigested packages.
For complete brain washing to be effective you need a closed group which is not exposed to other influences. Brainwashing (awful expression) succeeds in closed or tightly constructed religios groups for instance because its members accept the basic premise on which the group is founded.
Terrorists or racists buy into a limited ideology which denies any view point or perspective other than their own. It is for this reason they are able to dehumanise other and persecute the group, or members of that group. they hate or blame.
Leni
December 9, 2009 at 2:10 pm
RepublicanStones
Arab families regardless, you tiresome little Irish cultural if rather ignorant Catholic fascist, Palestinians still ethnically cleansed Hebron of Jews.
Zkharya Im not a catholic dear boy. And Israel ethnically cleansed rather more Palestinians in 1948. Of course I suppose you deny any jews ever converted to islam and christianity in the Levant. Adherents from thsoe religions apppeared out of thin air.
It’s a pity you’ve taken to pleasuring yourself in the airbrushing of the Jewish people from history
Not at all Zkharya. In fact I love examing the history of judaism in its entirety. this unfortunately for zionists also means the prosethlyzation and conversion from the Hasmoneasn to the Khazars and beyond. Why is it some people do not wish to admit this history? What purpose would denying historical reality serve?
I hope you read my comments putting you right about Karaites and your other sundry nonsense.
What comments would they be? This wouldn’t be anything to do with genetics would it? I mean, wasn’t their an nationla socialsit movement in the first half of the 20th century interested in such tests?
I suppose if somebody in Ireland shares a halotype with somebody sitting in bavaria they must be the same ‘race’ eh?
Please tell me more……..
December 9, 2009 at 8:41 pm
zkharya
Forgive me, I didn’t realise you were Jewish.
Palestinian and other Arab Muslims and, arguably, Christians threatened to ethnically cleanse Palestinian Jews.
Then you will love to study the fact that the rabbis defined Israel as a people dispossessed of temple, city and land. As did Christianity and Islam.
Most academic specialists in Jewish history I know (from whom non-specialist Sand largely draws) are sympathetic to both Zionism and Israel. It is they who describe the conversions Sand adduces. Even non-specialist, highly contestable Koestler was sympathetic to Zionism and Israel. I am an academic historian in a related field. What exactly am I denying?
I commented here, above, about the Karaites, and beneath your review on Amazon. Anyhow, I am glad to see you do not contest it.
Asides my uncertainty as to the meaning of “their an nationla socialsit”, what has alleged Nazi interest in genetics to do with it?
Re. Irish haplotypes, if you say so. I just called you an Irish (admittedly cultural catholic) fascist.
December 9, 2009 at 8:43 pm
zkharya
“Palestinian and other Arab Muslims and, arguably, Christians threatened to ethnically cleanse Palestinian Jews.”
And had already ethnically cleansed Jews from Hebron and East Jerusalem.
December 9, 2009 at 8:45 pm
zkharya
“I suppose if somebody in Ireland shares a halotype with somebody sitting in bavaria they must be the same ‘race’ eh?”
I’m not sure what this means. Do you allude to certain Republicans’ Nazi sympathies?
December 15, 2009 at 4:35 pm
RepublicanStones
Zkharya, please explain. How can world Jewry be a people if judaism was a prosethlyzing religion which contains converts? Which you do not deny.
Saying over and over that Jews are a people, when the historical reality contradicts you, doesn’t quite cut it in the real world.