Is British antisemitism in danger of getting out of control?

“Both Gilbert and Freedman are Jewish, and Gilbert at least has a record of active support for Zionism,” he said. “…if and when the inquiry is accused of a whitewash, such handy ammunition will be available. Membership should not only be balanced; it should be seen to be balanced.” (My italics) – (Robin Shepherd).

This para could be interpreted in an other way. It could be used by both pro and anti Israel groups to further their own agenda.

As most of the British public are expecting the Iraq enquiry to be something of a whitewash it will be of little importance who the members of the committee are.

Anyone who accuses two members – who happen to be Jewish – of undue influence would not be taken seriously. It will not be their Jewishness which will be noted but the fact that they are establishment figures. I think the percentage of the British public aware of the religious or ethnic background of even the most well known public figures is very small. *

These factors are sometimes brought to their attention through articles or blogs aimed at the majority but otherwise they are unconcerned as well as unaware. Most who oppose the war are actually more interested in ‘getting’ Blair than anything else. I would just like to know the truth.

For many of us it is more a question of a barely functioning democracy which led us into a legal but barely legitimate war. Which is to say it is not regarded as illegal but lacked any legitimacy conferred by popular consent.

* Leading figures with brown skin – Muslim or otherwise – are more likely to be targetted by right wing groups than those with Jewish or Israeli connections.

Leni

Sorry this bit didn’t copy.

In other words, Jews are an embarrassment. Ban them.

i don’t interpret it in this way – as i said that 2 jewish members being party to the final conclusions could be used by various groups but is unlikely to influence the British public in their assessment of the outcome.

Remember also this is a public enquiry and we are hearing the ‘evidence’ as presented and those interested enough to follow it can reach their own conclusions.
L

Mdernity
Racism and bias are easily recognised no matter who the targets are.

As to the Roma – they currently have the wost deal in Europe – they are a long standing persecute and very little supported minority group.

There are intellectual racists, there are those with a political agenda and there are some downrigt nasty folk loking for an outlet for their viciousness. All can be found in the ranks of the racist, all can contibute to blogs and opinion pieces. I am not aware of any institutionalised antismitism – if you know of any I would be interested to hear about it – it would have to be opposed very stringently.

There are very fe major news outlets who are not part of the establishment – they may make peripheral criticisms. If you live in Britain you will know that politicalthought and allegiance is not necessarily across class lines.

Of course there is some Antisemitism but it is less of an issue than anti Muslim feeling and expression. Both are despicable.

Hawkeye

I accept some of it.

My definition of racism is – to hate, diminish or in any way insult a person or group because of their ethnicity. Bigotry does the same with relation to religion.

I think the working paper tries to include too many reactions and attitudes – it can be used to stifle debate.

You may conclude from this that I am an antisemite or that I am too thick to recognise racism when it bites me in the face – I can do nothing about your perceptions. I support the right of Israel to exist. I recognise she has the right to self protection and security – as do all peoples. I don’t like settlement policy but am not one who says that all settlers should be removed. I recognise that most have built lives there and they should not be uprooted.

The problem with the document is that it attempts to be a catchall definition – fails to recognise the complexity of the I/P situation and worst of all when invoked in arguments draws the lines in the sand even more deeply and helps to force people to take one side or the other rather than considering the rights and wrongs, the needs and the claims of both sides. Until ‘sides’ are taken out of the debate there will be no conclusion.

Leni

Hawkeye

In simple terms – if I insult or attack a Jew because he is Jewish I am an antisemite – if I disagree with his politics I am open to political debate.

Hi Hawkeye

It is at this point I hit a difficulkty ! I stopped using the word Zionist over a year ago – this because I realised that people were responding to me because of their understanding of the word – not the way I mean it.

Zionism to me was originally a secular , political movement which aimed to create a Jewish home – very reasonable aspiration and sad indeed it didn’t happen earlier.

Modern Zionism seems to mean many different things to different people – therefore the conflation of anti zionist sentiment with anti semitism is confusing and suggests that any criticism of modern day Israeli political policy is anti Jewish. As there is no clear definition of modern day Zionism this creates a very vague definition – to the point of meaningless.

Some interpret Z to mean expansion into the whole of the WB – some add a religious dimension to this. Others mean simply support of the continuing existance of Israel – there are variations on these themes.

I prefer not to use the word – it has emotional. religious and national connotations and it is too easy to upset people by using it in a way that they do not relate to.

As I say this is a difficult area – you are perhaps unaware of how people feel when they are unfairly and wrongly accused of antisemitism. The connection with inhuman brutality towards an innocent people – I can say only that to be accused of that leaves a very nasty, empty feeling inside. Some posters respond angrily – I usually just withdraw.

There is sometimes a lack of understanding on both sides.

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. (With ref to Israel)

Hawkeye

It is about loose language and its interpretation. Take the above for example. This can mean all things to all people. Who decides what is legitimate criticism ? The writer or the reader ? There are pro Israel posters who invoke this and the point out that Israel is better than Zimbabwe for example. They don’t quite say that but ask ‘What about Zimbabwe or Sudan or …. ? This response does not answer a legitimate criticism – it merely attempts to deflect.

I don’t like the wording of the para which effectively says a racist incident is racist if the recipient thinks it is. This again allows an often unwarranted defence.

There is a difference between an actual incident which harms a person and a written criticism of political policy. If you hit me can I claim it is because I am not Jewish ? If I dine with you and you give me a plate not part of the dinner service used by the family is that racist? If you say you disagree with the politics or a particular policy of my gvt. is that attacking the British people?

So in conclusion – it is badly worded – possibly deliberately.

I fear we will not agree on this. I’m off to bed now but will think more on this. We British are used to being criticised and attacked for gvt. behaviour which is beyond our control – we also have a horrendous history of expansion and repression of which many of us are not very proud. It may simply be a difference in sensitivity
L.

Zionism to me was originally a secular , political movement which aimed to create a Jewish home

This is not exactly correct. For millennia, there has always been a small but steady non-secular flow of both Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews towards Zion.

Leading figures with brown skin – Muslim or otherwise – are more likely to be targetted by right wing groups than those with Jewish or Israeli connections. .. there is some Antisemitism but it is less of an issue than anti Muslim feeling and expression.

This open to dispute on several grounds:
- Contemporary: On a per capita basis, anti-Jewish incidents far exceed anti-Islamic incidents. That is, a Jewish resident has a far greater likelihood of being affected by a severe incident, than a Muslim resident.
- Historical: Both the UK and Europe have a far more horrific history of persecuting Jewish residents, than Muslim. The York massacre was perpetrated against Jews, not Muslims. The Auschwitz crematoria were built for Jews, not Muslims.
- Refuge: Most Muslim Homelands are not and have not been under continuus threat of complete elimination. In other words, unlike Muslims, the Jews still lack any place of refuge where they are a majority and not under mortal threat.

Oliver Miles appears to be married to the sister of OED deputy editor Edmund Weiner, whose father, Professor Joseph Sidney Weine, was Jewish.

I commend CiFWatch for its efforts to counter the effects of the racial hatred that no doubt occurs on the pages of the Guardian’s CiF website.

With regard to the subject of this piece, Is British anti-Semitism getting out of control, I am very much in two minds.

We are currently in a recession which brings with it job losses and real hardship and misery for many people. Along with that usually comes hardening of attitudes and looking for someone to blame.

There has always been an undercurrent of anti-Semitism in the UK, some of it coming from some of the upper classes, some of it from the far left and far right and now, today, we have certain sectors of the Muslim community who have brought their own racism to bear.

When we get tv programmes like Oborne’s Dispatches and then the statement by Oliver Miles, it obviously doesn’t help, but while worrying, is it getting out of control?

After Gaza, I sent out an email to non Jews I knew in business and friends, explaining why Israel did what they did and inviting comments. Only one out of about 30 bothered to respond and I can’t help feel that for many, many Brits, Jews and Israel are almost invisible and simply don’t register on many people’s radar, unless they are wearing black hats and beards or kippot, and even then maybe not.

A conversation with an employee at my bank, uncovered the fact that she didn’t know that Israel was actually a country in it’s own right – she thought it was an area or region or I don’t know what. With this degree of ignorance in someone who works for a bank, I get the impression that as sensitive as we are to what people think of Jews and Israel, most people are simply getting on with their lives and are too wrapped up in themselves to care.

Having said that, there are those here who would certainly do us down at the first opportunity – we cannot afford to be complacent but we need to judge very finely where and when to accuse of anti-Semitism, when it is simply innocent and nonmalicious ignorance – let us not alienate possible friends by calling them names when they may not deserve it.

zkharya

Now you’re being snarky. I didn’t suggest that my experience is in any way comparable to the long lasting persecution of the Jews. By stating that Israelis may be more sensitive to criticism of their homeland I was suggesting that their history may make them more alert to such criticism. They may, as a result, over estimate it’s virulence or conversely others may underestimate it. I was posing a question rather than making a definitive statement.

For the record I am not ‘Anglo’ anything – not that it matters to me – I’m just me and speak for myself.

Modernity
Will reply later when I have time to read your links.

Leni

Hi AKUS

Between dashing hither and thither. As you know I am better at conversations when the rest of the world around here is asleep.

I have been reading I/P blogs but staying off them as I can’t find any disussion !

You – and some others – are missed.

I don’t know who reads the Guardian nowadays – I am old fashioned Left when it comes to social problems here – the poor here are having a very bad time – but not necessarily leftist in international politics. Those old divisions (of the cold war ) are no longer relevant. I keep on hoping we may move to cooperation on shared problems but ….

I have been looking for instances of antisemitism here – very little reported in mainstream press. I did politely remove some Jehovah’s witness types from my doorstep when they told me the Jews killed Jesus and so were evil – so at some level at least the old calumnies are being repeated and disseminated. I shall pay more attention to religious dialogue – particularly amongst those sects who work to entrap the poor and fearful. This type of dialogue may well be increasing across some sections of society.

Leni x

Cityca

“Before Gaza, Livni and her cabinet flew here, there and everywhere, getting the leaders of governments onside for what was bound to be a controversial assault. What they didn’t do was speak to the heads of the media organisations to ensure that even if they weren’t on side, at least they would be non partisan and objective.”

Israel clearly mis-predicted the fallout from the Gaza operation. Responding to the rocket attacks by a terrorist organization was entirely correct. In addition, the IDF did a tremendous job minimizing the casualties.

Yet, the fallout has been catastrophic. The war produced the Goldstone report, and Turkey clearly has been lost for the moment as an important Israel ally. The settlements are viewed by Europeans as the biggest impediment to peace, and Obama reinforced that idea. The media is far to the left on the IP conflict, and speaking to the media was a good idea, but I doubt that would have changed the reporting which was remarkably biased. They are not going to be fair and balanced any more than Fox TV.

The media is agenda driven. Throughout Europe, this is true in favor of the Palestinians who are perceived as the victims. For the most part, this is not the case in Canada and the US.

‘For the record I am not ‘Anglo’ anything – not that it matters to me – I’m just me and speak for myself.’

You say you’re British and you’re Irish.

Republican Stones your very particular concern with who is a Jew has racist connotations.

Tom and amyisraelchai
I was at a Zionist Federation meeting in London right after the Lebanon retaliation in ’06, and Mark Regev was the guest of honour, explaining what a brilliant job he and the Israel Government Press Office was doing.

He was furious when I and a lady in front of me told him what a poor job he and his department were doing and how his complacency was affecting Jews around the world.

I love Israel and I love Israelis and I am so happy when I’m there but their idea of how to promote what is such a miraculous creation makes me want to weep.

Tom you are right to say they mis-predicted the fallout from Gaza – wow, didn’t they just! The media are agenda driven but they need to be wooed and shown/given stories that they can work with. It is surely not beyond the wit of our brilliant friends and family in Israel and the diaspora to offer the media truthful but irresistable stories from Israel and it’s immediate surroundings that the media want to use.

Cityca – I have been lamenting our poor PR skills for years. At every opportunity I try to explain that the aleph-bet is to have native speakers of english, and in my opinion, preferably women, as spokespeople for interviews with foreign TV stations. Until Mark Regev it was always native Israelis with awful accents in english, and sometimes still is, but most Israelis are not capable of understanding what a bad impression that gives.

Scary goings-on, there. No doubt about it.

Miles “qualifies” his doubts about Gilbert – but Freedman is apparently suspicious solely on account of being Jewish.

The rabble rousing does not come from the pro-Israeli side. You will never hear a rabbi urging his congregation to engage in suicide bombing, rocket fire against civilians, or boycotts of other faiths. In contrast if you read the Guardian you will constantly read the most vile comments of Jewish people. The editors of the Guardian do not see anything wrong with that and they promoted a grotesque documentary accusing Britain’s small Jewish community of controling the UK’s government. If you listen to sermons at “progressive” churches you will hear calls for boycotts of Jewish businesses. At universities you will find professors who deny admission to Israeli students and professors who call for boycotts of Israeli books, research etc.

Jubel

I don’t go to churches, progressive or otherwise. In which church did you hear calls for boycotts against Israel?

There are many branches in Christianity – I.m not sure what progressive Christianity is .

L

Irish
I was at a protest last night (organised by Jonathan Hoffman), in London outside the Bloomsbury Baptist Church which was hosting and promoting a Palestine Solidarity Campaign ‘Christmas Concert’.

Some churches are lending their support to organisations like Hamas – bizarre when as we were singing last night, there are no churches in Gaza.

I should also make clear that among our strongest supporters are Christians who take extraordinary trouble to support us – last night, in London there was a group who had travelled up from Wales and a chap from Basingstoke, and he had to be at work at 7 this morning. My thanks to them for their constant support and friendship.