This is a guest post by Israelinurse
It’s a worrying day when one finds oneself sort of almost half-agreeing with Seth Freedman, but in his article about Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s latest outbursts, he does make some valid points regarding Turkey’s apparent aspiration to ‘dance at two weddings’, as the Hebrew phrase goes.
Unfortunately, he then ruins it all by being unable to resist taking a few pot shots at Israel’s government along the way.
“[W]hile it is entirely legitimate to upbraid Israel, as with any other state, for misdeeds carried out by the state’s rulers, ..”
Turkey’s about-face began last winter during Operation Cast Lead. Does Seth Freedman really care to define a government’s actions in defence of its people after eight long years of attacks upon civilians as “misdeeds”?
Then, predictably, there’s a quick stab at the right: “those on the Israeli right who believe that they are up against a collective Arab enemy who will never deal with the Jewish state on a level playing field.” It would have been pretty difficult not to get that impression in 1948, 1967 and 1973, even if one were not of right-wing persuasions. The fact that the Arab states tend to vote en masse against Israel at the UN, regardless of the issue at hand, may also lead one to suspect that the playing field may not be all it should be, even if one does not suffer from some uncontrollable urge to vote Likud.
Freedman then goes on to suggest that “the country [Turkey] should be sidelined in terms of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, in order not to throw yet another spanner in the already-stuttering works.”. As far as I am aware, Turkey’s main role in recent times has been as mediator in negotiations between Syria and Israel regarding the Golan Heights, but I have to say that I do agree that Turkey’s influence in this field should be seriously scrutinised, albeit for different reasons to Freedman.
I now have to admit to having something of a personal interest in this subject for the simple reason that the Golan is my home. Since the early nineties those of us who live there have been told every few years that our evacuation is imminent because a peace deal is just around the corner. Despite the best attempts of Binyamin Netanyau in his first term as prime minister and Ehud Barak as head of a Labour government, the deals were never signed and the residents of the Golan went back to raising cattle and growing crops, all the while waiting for the storm clouds to gather again.
My dear partner- an incurable optimist – always says that he trusts that the inability of the Assad family firm to compromise will keep us in the Golan more than he relies upon an Israeli government of any political persuasion to do so, as both Labour and Likud have tried to sign deals with Syria. So Seth Freedman’s declaration that “Israel’s rulers have shown that they are adept at seizing on any perceived slight and throwing out the baby with the bathwater at will” does not ring particularly true with those of us who have stared evacuation in the face time and time again.
There’s more to a peace agreement than just nice words and good intentions. In order to justify making the thousands of residents of the Golan homeless and jobless, any Israeli government will have to be 100% sure that the rewards will outweigh the heavy price paid, particularly when one takes into account that some of today’s residents of the Golan are evacuees from Sinai and from Gush Katif. There is nothing “histrionic”, as Freedman puts it, about a government trying to ensure that a deal protects the interests of its people. Indeed, the people should not demand any less, particularly when the broker of the deal can be seen to have vested interests of its own and, as Guy Bechor puts it, “Turkey has an existential interest in seeing the Syrians get the Kinneret”.
Equally worrying to all Israelis is Turkey’s newly- embraced role as Iran’s best buddy, and the role it seems to want to play in the current crisis regarding Iran’s nuclear aspirations.
So whilst Freedman may well be right that Turkey should be sidelined and its actions closely scrutinised, he unfortunately reaches the right conclusions for the wrong reasons. This isn’t about Israeli leaders being petulant or looking for any old excuse not to make peace; the implications of Erdogan’s romancing of Syria and Iran whilst a member of NATO and a US ally are far wider than that. What a pity that Freedman cannot distinguish the wood from the trees, but that’s what happens when one is hampered by political blinkers. Never mind, Seth – you were almost there.






21 comments
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November 14, 2009 at 10:11 am
HairShirt
It seems that Seth is running with the hare and with the hounds again, and, given the following:
“…So Seth Freedman’s declaration that “Israel’s rulers have shown that they are adept at seizing on any perceived slight and throwing out the baby with the bathwater at will” does not ring particularly true with those of us who have stared evacuation in the face time and time again…”
he still can’t be bothered to do his research even adequately.
November 14, 2009 at 10:31 am
Margie
Well observed and commented on: something we are beginning to expect from IsraeliNurse.
Seth for once judges things correctly and quotes Erdogan as saying that Israeli “war crimes” in Gaza are worse than anything that has taken place in Sudan which Seth sees as , a comment guaranteed to further strain the already fragile relationship between Jerusalem and Ankara – and rightly so, on Israel’s part. He could have redeemed himself in our eyes by slipping in the word Goldstone here, but this is Seth we are dealing with, and we shouldn’t forget it.
November 14, 2009 at 10:40 am
JerusalemMite
Israelinurse.
You give far too much weight to the possibility that ‘Our Sethele’ writes to be informative to a well informed audience.
He doesn’t.
He writes to be read by morons. (Pardon the pun).
November 14, 2009 at 10:49 am
sababa
All Freedman proved once again with this piece is that he doesn’t have a clue about any of the politics involved in all this. Idiotic formulations like “Israel’s rulers” are another give-away that shows his tenuous grasp of understanding even the basics — would he ever refer to “Britain’s rulers” or “America’s rulers”?
Erdogan behaved like some clown already in Davos; if I remember correctly, back then he quoted Gilad Atzmon or some such figure of authority. And then, who’s he to talk? Just yesterday I saw an article reporting that Turkey seems now prepared to give the Kurds some minimal rights, and there was a throw-away sentence like: after 25 years of fighting that cost some 40 000 lives…. Sure, who cares, those 40 000 were after all not killed by Jews. I think I once read that a Kurdish leader said something like: it’s our misfortune that our opponents are not Jews.
So Erdogan would feel more comfortable to talk to Sudan’s Bashir than to Bibi, or Shimon Peres, for that matter. That’s perfectly OK with me, all this tells us is that birds of a feather flock together.
November 14, 2009 at 10:58 am
sababa
Ha, I even found the quote:
“This is the source of a bitter but hilarious observation I once heard a Kurdish leader make: He was complaining to me that his people were cursed, and I asked him what he meant: Cursed by geography, cursed by their proximity to Kurd-hating Arabs, what? He said the Kurds were cursed because they didn’t have Jewish enemies. Only with Jewish enemies would the world pay attention to their plight.”
http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/the_worlds_pornographic_intere.php
November 14, 2009 at 11:04 am
Margie
And an excellent quotation that one is too Sababa. I will cherish it.
Only with Jewish enemies would the world pay attention to their plight.”
November 14, 2009 at 11:23 am
Sid Bachrach
Incredibly, Seth Freedman is a right wing reactionary in comparison with Roger Cohen, the British journalist who writes for the New York Times and sometimes for the Guardian. Cohen interviewed Erdrogan a few months ago and Cohen was so over the top in his praise for Erdrogan that it seemed almost libidinous. Cohen positively glowed when Erdrogan said he had no regrets about getting in the face of Shimon Peres at Davos. Cohen excitedly reported about how Erdrogan had to speak truth the representative of the aggressive State of Israel. Cohen showed that he is not a real journalist but a cheerleader for the Muslims nations that he feels such kinship for. Cohen never asked Erdrogan a simple question like: “If Turkey wishes to have moral authority to lecture Israel, shouldn’t Turkey finally admit, after about 95 years, that Turks committed horrible crimes against the Armenians? Should not you, Mr. Erdrogan, admit that Turks forced Armenians on a death march and killed hundreds of thousands of Armenians?”
But Roger Cohen has no interest in the Armenians. They are not Muslims and they are not enemies of Israel and hence they arouse no sympathy from Roger Cohen. Roger Cohen also would not ask his beloved Erdrogan about the Turkish air force flying over Iraqi air space and bombing dozens of Kurdish villages, killings hundred of Kurdish women and children. But since the Kurds are not actively antiIsrael and the victims of Muslim states, Roger Cohen (and Seth Freedman) will never write about the Kurds. But with Erdrogan, Cohen blushed like a kid who asked the pretty girl if she will go to the junior prom with him.
November 14, 2009 at 11:36 am
JerusalemMite
Sid. Roger Cohen sounds like a right bastard. To tell you the truth, my interest is somewhat concentrated of The Guardian/CIF because they stand out like a bucket of fly infested sewage in an otherwise reasonably smelling background.
But, if you feel so incensed, why don’t you start a site similar to CIFWatch. I think that the people who started this site have been somewhat surprised at the far flung support to expose the Guardian’s biases and hypocrisy by shining a light on it.
I can suggest a name.
RogerCohenWatch.com.
Then you can annoy him just as this site is presumably annoying the Georgins/Guardian coven.
I suppose that we can expect an article about Roger Cohen on CIFWatch the moment that he has the temerity to bring his offerings again to Georgina.
If he dares.
November 14, 2009 at 12:27 pm
MITNAGED
Once again I can’t decide whether Freedman is a complete mutt or just a narcissistic lazy b*gger who can’t be bothered to do decent background research and thinks that his readers can be fobbed off with blatant rubbish.
I think I’ll go with the latter.
November 14, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Yohoho
I’m NOT a moron! I have it on reliable evidence. I have a certificate to prove it. JerusalemMite, maybe you should get one.
And Sid, Cesspit is Free is indeed a ridiculous website but unfortunately it continues to overstep the mark and the good people here have finally decided that enough is enough and are doing something about it.
Israelinurse, a good article although I think you are too generous by half to silly little Sethele. He’s trying to “be nice” so that more people post to his threads.
November 14, 2009 at 1:05 pm
StickyMickey
“Isn’t it great we can all come out and admit that we are morons?”
Judging by the comments and content on this website, you don’t really have much choice.
November 14, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Sid Bachrach
A troll used my name above and called himself Sid Bachrach. But it’s not the real Sid. It just shows the depths of insecurity that the antiIsrael crowd that populates at the Guardian feel. I suppose I should feel honored that I rattle them so easily.
November 14, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Sid Bachrach
Regarding Roger Cohen, Jeffrey Goldberg on the Atlantic’s web site has demolished Cohen, prompting Cohen to use his perch at the NYTimes to write nasty and childish things about Mr. Goldberg.
November 14, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Sid Bachrach
And another thing. At school the other kids used to call me Sid Back-rash. Bastards.
November 14, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Historian
Debka reports the following:
In the secret part of their talks in Tehran on Oct. 28, DEBKAfile’s military sources reveal that Turkish prime minister Tayyep Recep Erdogan and Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad struck military cooperation deals which promised Iran Turkish military intelligence and air force assistance against a possible Israeli attack on its nuclear sites.
It thus appears that “secuar, democratic” Turkey has within just a few years gone from claiming itself a NATO (and Israeli) ally, to refusing US entreates for help and to actively advancing Iran’s agressive, de-stablising, imperialist aims in the Mideast.
This raises the question, then, of the inherent instability of any commitment taken by any Muslim-majority country, no matter how “secular” it might be. That, in turn, raises the question of whether Islam is inherently incompatible with the west, with membership in NATO, or with membership in the EU.
November 14, 2009 at 6:02 pm
Historian
“Should not you, Mr. Erdrogan, admit that Turks forced Armenians on a death march and killed hundreds of thousands of Armenians?”
Turkey also committed gencide against Pontic Greeks, with possibly one half-million deaths.
November 14, 2009 at 6:18 pm
Grauniad Sux
Perhaps you should expand your operations to cover Guardian articles that don’t includ CIF participation, yet are still glaringly anti-Israel without any compunction at all, such as this one:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/13/israel-human-rights-watch-gaza
Which seems to present as factual news that Israel is engaged in a worldwide conspiracy – very similar to the “Jewish conspiracy” so beloved of fascists and the like.
November 14, 2009 at 8:52 pm
sababa
Well, Grauniad Sux, you see, if people can no longer just enjoy innocent hobbies like collecting Nazi memorabilia that excite them so much that they go all gaga over some really cool SS leather jacket — what other proof do you need that there is this fabled conspiracy with the Elders and their protocols and what not??? Or look at the case of poor Bella: she was just trying to whip up a bit of poisonous hate against a rather famous columnist she detests — what’s wrong with that, particularly when you do it in the privacy of a website run by daddy’s outfit??? It’s all so innocent, and they really do some of the same stuff over at Stormfront, so what the eff [*] should be wrong with that???
[*] I don’t want to plagiarize, so I freely admit that this is quoted from: Bellatwitterings, now protected, so we can only speculate how many more effs there are…
November 14, 2009 at 10:58 pm
AKUS
Grauniad Sux
Thanks for drawing attention to that rather disgusting article ( Israel ‘personally attacking human rights group’ after Gaza war criticism), which features, of course, a picture from the Guardian’s favorite obsession, Cast Lead, so that readers can immediately get the connection.
Having just come from viewing an exhibition of horrific photographs taken by AP photographers of the torture, murder, injuries and humiliation suffered by civilians in Iraq, some, no doubt, at the hands of British troops, in Iraq, none of which I can recall making the pages of the Guardian, I am less than impressed with a picture of a Hamas supporter being helped away from the scene of an attack (Hamas, the Guardian and its stooges on CiF like to remind us, is the freely elected government of Gaza. They also can’t have it both ways and disclaim responsibility when their government’s attacks draw down reprisals).
So the article by Chris McGreal says:
I can’t help feeling that Robert Bernstein is in a better place to criticize HRW than McGreel is to defend its miserable, biased record by citing Iain Levine. And the Saudi connection has been documented and admitted to by HRW despite their attempts to whitewash their visit there to raise money.
In the first place, there is so much to discredit about HRW that to develop some kind of conspiracy theory is unnecessary. Their record speaks for itself.
Secondly, it is typical of HRW and similar organizations that they claim the right to criticize anyone and any government, with special venom directed at Israel, but object strenuously to any charges, no matter how ell founded, and from whom ,directed against themselves.
Which, I suppose, bring us full circle to Seth Freedman, who directs some of his harshest comments to those who criticize him on the threads attached to his venomous articles. They like dishing it out, but object mightily to their own flaws being exposed.
November 14, 2009 at 11:23 pm
AKUS
Just to drive the point home about the Guardian’s obsession with Gaza and its bias (once again – there’s no end to it), look a this article tucked waya where no CiFer will see it:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/13/falluja-cancer-children-birth-defects
Basra was mainly under British control
Imagine how a similar story from Gaza would be reported, endlessly, with the endless howls from the morons, berchmans, orwells, paplagis, namokels, etc. repeated over and over again.
Frankly, I am amazed to see the article at all, even if no comments are allowed.
November 14, 2009 at 11:49 pm
JerusalemMite
AKUS – Frankly, I am amazed to see the article at all, even if no comments are allowed.
Yup. That is interesting.
They often publicize various things that do not allow comment. This site, CIFWatch, should perhaps go after some of these ‘sidelined’ articles which are part of the GWV but not open for comment.
I actually find difficulty considering that anybody rational would subscribe to the Guardian under its present editorial management. So much subliminal pushing of the GWV under the guise of unbiased reporting.
And that’s without the contemplation of a yearly income of 520,000 pounds by the managing editor.