“I think all the gun-to-the-head towards Israel should stop. Tosca calls the “peace process” the “Israel surrender and leave process”. That really does approximate to my vision.”

Very true.

Rabin used to say: “Israel gives and the palestinains take”.

In my CIF days, I wrote a couple of times that i refuse to use the terminology “give back” regarding the WB or Gaza.

There is nothing “back” about it.

Israel will decide how much, if any to give, and the Palestinians, when one day they understand that, will take what they are given.

Thanks. I assume the paper you are talking about is “Ending the Occupation, Establishing the State”. I was struck by this paragraph.

“…People are the most important and most precious asset in Palestine. They are central to our national
struggle and our steadfast will to secure liberation from the occupation. They will be the essential driver
of the development of the Palestinian state following independence. The Government attaches supreme
importance to developing the capacities of all Palestinian citizens. The Palestinian people have suffered
gravely from the anguish of the occupation and have shouldered heavy burdens. In addition to the
suppression of human capacity in all spheres, the occupation’s oppressive measures have left our people
with physical disabilities and psychological pain….”

The leadership of the Palestinians have failed their people for over half a century. They have wasted huge resources in human capital by opposing the Israeli state at the expense of the Palestinian people – effectively at all costs. While Fayyad may write that this was the result of the occupation, nothing can be further from the truth. Resistance to the Jewish state took priority over Palestinian society and culture, and most importantly, the future of their children.

If you will just allow me to relate a story to you about a young lady I encountered (on a job) from Afghanistan. Afghanistan is very culturally diverse. Treatment of women degraded when the Taliban came to power and imposed their (one size fits all) radical brand of Deobandism on the population. Women were no longer allowed to receive an education, and the population was ruled by strict Sharia law. As you know, adulterous women could be stoned to death.

I met a young lady a couple of years ago that immigrated from Afghanistan in about 1996. Her family are Shiites, and they felt the full force of the Sunni Taliban discrimination when the Taliban gained control of most of the country. The Taliban literally attempted to wipe out the Shia population at one point during the war. She just recently graduated from a western University and with a great deal of difficulty, I can detect her accent. She is bright and articulate. She may be gifted, I don’t know, but I doubt that she is exceptional in a population that never has experienced the opportunities that are a given in democratic societies like the US and Israel.

Palestine (like Afghanistan) represents a huge waste of human capital. Dignity, in part, comes with opportunity. Lets hope that Fayyad succeeds.

I didn’t say that Fayyad doesn’t want peace. But we all know what kind of peace Muslim Arabs tend to want for Jews.

I don’t know why he says just plain “Jerusalem” so often. Jerusalem isn’t an Arab city.

These items seem to envisage Israel as before:

-Provide necessary legal support for Jerusalem inhabitants to enable them confront Israeli policies and measures, including house demolitions and withdrawal of ID cards.

- Provide necessary engineering expertise to prepare and submit structural plans for houses under threat of demolition and for zoning of unclassified land to convert them into residential areas.

- Provide urgent aid to evicted families.

And these items are the only sign that Fayyad is not talking about all of Jerusalem. Yet.

Surely Israel should be insisting on stopping illegal Arab building and Arab squatting right now? Kicking out Hamas members?

I wouldn’t argue that anyone insisting that an undivided Jerusalem should remain the capital of Israel is harming the peace process. Israel has rights she doesn’t exercise and doesn’t even mention.

I think all the gun-to-the-head towards Israel should stop. Tosca calls the “peace process” the “Israel surrender and leave process”. That really does approximate to my vision.

I suggest that people read Melanie Phillips on “human rights”. There don’t be seem to be many for Israelis.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/5364926/the-human-rights-witchhunt.thtml

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Desperation at CIF! Even an old fogey like Leonard Cohen is neough to get the Israel bashers going …

CifEditor

25 Sep 09, 4:13pm (about 7 hours ago)
Staff Staff

PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC

This is an article about Leonard Cohen’s concert in Israel and readers should confine their comments to matters raised in the article. Other issues can be discussed in relevant threads at the appropriate time.

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Unless moderated out of existence, of course …

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What was truly bizarre were the references by papalagi and Teacupto Barenboim – who was banned from Ramallah – as if that was Israel’s fault!!

Teacup

25 Sep 09, 3:17pm (about 8 hours ago)

Papalagi,

Damn! You beat me to it. Maestro Barenboim has worked on this for years, with little to show for it but the respect many of us have for him (and the anger of many Israelis.

I wish it were this easy.

—

Dear little Teacup – Ramallah is in what you refer to as “Palestine”, even though, if I may adapt a line from your friend talknic, there is no such place on this planet, and it was the Palestinians who refused to let Barenboim or LC perform there!!

And poor old Dotty, LC’s biggest fan, seems to have been shut down.

What is realistic is understanding what Fayyad is facing.
Ben White does have a point when he says Fayyad has few friends among Palestinians. His attack on him as some foreign stooge and repeating what is probably the criticism of Fayyad by Ben White s Hamas friends was revealing of White as the rejectionist he always was. This denouncing of Fayyad is nothing short of a character assassination fueling the pro-Hamas camp in the West to reject the peace deal before it is even outlined.

And I don’t want to sound cynical but I did live through Madrid and Oslo and Camp D that followed. Then, like today, the Left rejected the peace plan and outlined the very criticisms 2 years before Arafat reneged on the deal using those criticisms as his excuse. All the while he was on board until the 11th hour.

So lets not lose our sense of reality here. Fayyad sounds like a reasonable guy who is obviously getting some backing from Obama and Europe. Great.
But the reality is that Palestinians are deeply divided and what is going to happen here is Western involvement in that struggle.
The Guardian was ready to pounce on Fatah in favor of Hamas whom they saw as “of the people”. Similarly to Ahmedinegad who s opponents were deemed “westernized burgeois kids” as opposed to the “real people” of Iran.
So we know the narrative to follow in regards to Palestine.

Fayyad: paid for by the rich West

Hamas and other Fatah elements: The victims of occupation and the real people.

The Iranians will prop up Fayyad s enemies and with the left they will chip away at the deal before it even comes to the table attempting to paint the Palestinians negotiating as sell outs and Jew lovers.
So unless that Iranian involvement is nipped in the bud, this whole thing will just become another dance with the stars with no result.

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/09/25/doing-your-revision/

Keysie

24 Sep 09, 4:29pm

fucking Jews

Prosecuted for saying that!!!!!!!

It certainly isn’t the most pleasant comment but I do worry sometimes that people are overtaken by comments/remarks rather than actions.

I agree someone with those attitudes shouldn’t be a diplomat but I really think we need to be more careful.

By the way, is it not racist that the Israelis don’t help created an exclusively Jewish state through ethnic cleansing and that racial purity is such an issue in Judaism.

Here’s gondwanaland who’s got no problem with someone having an antisemitic tirade in public – I wonder what he would say if Laxton was having an anti-Muslim or anti-Black tirade at the TV screen…hmmm

gondwanaland

24 Sep 09, 3:58pm

I find it extraordinary that anyone would report someone’s comments in a gym.

If these words were directed at someone specifically, maybe.

But ranting at a TV?

Some people need to get a life!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/24/racism-antisemitism?commentid=66fcf802-c085-4e1e-939a-6c392d422a3c

I know this is unpopular to say, but the fact is the Jews mostly have themselves to blame through their lack of respect for international law and their indefensible behaviour vis-a-vis the Palestinians.

Add to this that the holocaust effect is diminishing, making it increasingly difficult for the Israelis to blackmail the rest of the world through the associated guilt complex.

Times have changed a lot since 1948, when Ben Gurion and his Labour Zionist terrorists managed to secure a large part of Palestinian land for themselves. Nobody any longer supports states based on racism and religious fundamentalism.

The West actively fights Taliban-led states – why would it accept a Jewish state based on a type of ideology, in many ways not that far from that of the Taliban, covered by a thin veneer of democracy operating within an unquestioned Zionist framework? Time has run away from these types of ideologies – so there is an important question for Israel: ideological reform and re-definition of some basics of Israel as a state.

It is difficult to see how the Middle East region can become stable if a single state, ideologically hostile to its neighbours, is the dominant military power. Hence, I see only two ways forward in this respect: either Israel must disarm, in particularly with regard to its nuclear capability, or Iran must be allowed to develop nuclear arms. A balance of terror is not desirable but it worked in the USA – USSR cold war. Maybe it could work in the Middle East. After all, neither the Israeli nor the Iranian leaders are insane.

Don’t get me wrong. I have no hidden agenda to promote here. I’m neither an Arab nor a Jew and neither against Israel as a modern, acceptable state, nor particularly pro-Palestinian. The unfortunate Palestinians have suffered from some of the most incompetent and downright idiotic leadership in modern history.

However, with the advent of Mr. Obama, it may be time for the Israelis to realise that they can’t just dictate the terms and conditions ruling the Middle East to the rest of the World.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/24/racism-antisemitism?showallcomments=true&commentpage=5&commentposted=1

At this time on a Friday night its great to be on a website where I can wish my co religionists Shabbat shalom and a good fast on Monday and to our non Jewish friends, say thanks for your support and friendship.

Not a message I would any longer feel comfortable leaving on CiF. How sad is that?