Remember! Whatever you do don’t mention the Hamas Charter

Yeah. Hamas charter, Mufti of Jerusalem, Tariq Ramadan and the Muslim brotherhood and of course the skeletons of Inayat Bulglawala are off limits in the discussions on Cif.

But I am not sold on Salam Fayyad. Sure he is better than the frothing mouth annihilationists we re used to.

But he did call for the new Palestinian state to be an Islamic one. Then went into explaining how this new Islamic state will transform Islam and the perceptions of Islam.

http://europenews.dk/en/node/26405

Dreamy words but hardly in touch with reality. He perhaps is sincere in this desire but contemplating this liberal Islamic state next to Israel requires some good grass for a while.

But as Jack Nickolson said in his famous line:

“Maybe this is as good as it gets”

I pray for Fayyad’s safety.

‘But he did call for the new Palestinian state to be an Islamic one. Then went into explaining how this new Islamic state will transform Islam and the perceptions of Islam.’

I can excuse some of the double talk involved when speaking to Muslims and Salam Fayyad is simply the best available at the moment. I hope that from now on, he will be very careful about what he says publically and if it ever comes to the point where we negotiate with him on a genuine peace treaty, he will be realistic and not go off into Islamic fantasies that he heard in his mosque.

David Bedein has written an opinion piece on Fayyad’s policy paper.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/9075

cityca, it’s great that — instead of being silenced by Cif-moderation — you took the opportunity to express your thoughts here. I completely agree with you about Ben White and the fake “pro-Palestinian” stance taken by him and so many on Cif; and it’s truly a joke that people responding to White on Cif would be prohibited from mentioning Hamas, because what White wants is of course very close to what Hamas wants: a Palestinian state from the “river to the sea”, and the fact that this would be an Islamic state is clearly something that White can live with — much better than with having a Jewish state!

Personally, I think that some of the criticism against Fayyad here is entirely unfair; I checked out the link posted by armaros, and frankly, it seems pretty obvious that this was written by somebody who wouldn’t be satisfied by any Palestinian leader who isn’t an ardent Zionist. How realistic is that?

But the fact that people like Ben White (and his friends at the Electronic Intifada) can’t stand Fayyad because he is pushing for a Palestinian state is really quite revealing: in truth, Fayyad is the first Palestinian politician to push for the speedy establishment of a PalState whole-heartedly. All the others, including Arafat and Abbas, always flirted with the idea: if the occupation lasts long enough, we will be able to demand a one-state solution, and then it’s just another generation or so until we are a majority… It’s an idea very popular in Arab discourse, where you can often find the argument: it took us some 200 years to get rid of the crusaders, no need to be impatient, one way or the other, we’ll get rid of the Zionist entity.

Fayyad’s impatience to get a state therefore is actually very “Western”, and there is no question that he has to try to balance it by claiming his allegiance to Islam. But my guess is that in this, he looks more credible to the Israeli right wing than to any Palestinian.

Ariadne.

The article you linked is on a Jewish right wing site. No Palestinian who wants peace would ever be acceptable to them. In fact, they prefer an extremist Hamas than a moderate because their audience is not in for discerning different emphasis on the future Palestinian state and its future relationship with Israel. Indeed, any agreement which did not leave in place all the Jewish settlements would be rejected by them, Arutz 7, for very similar imperatives that Muslims have about relinquishing land that was once Muslim land.

The difference being that religious parties in Israel have 20% of the overall vote and not all the religious MK are against eventual compromise. Shass, for instance, is not against compromise on settlements.

JerusalemMite,

Why are you shooting the messenger? Is Fayyad a man of peace or not?

Tosca

Here is the paper:

http://www.geneva-accord.org/images/Offical%20Paper%20-%20Program%20of%20the%20Thirteenth%20Government,%20August%202009.pdf

“Occupation” is used 5 times on the first page and near the start of the second page “…end the occupation, establish a sovereign and independent state on the 1967 borders with Jerusalem as its capital”

In combination with “geneva-accord” – powerful magic.

Page 9 of that paper:

“Jerusalem is our people’s religious, cultural, economic and political center. It is the Flower of Cities and Capital of Capitals. It cannot be anything but the eternal capital of the future Palestinian state.”

Fairplay – Why are you shooting the messenger? Is Fayyad a man of peace or not?

I don’t know yet. He appears to be, above all, a pragmatist who sees a way forward for the Palestinians. If a true peace treaty recognising Israel as the Jewish Homeland and as Jewish soil can be accomplished with him, them fine.

I am worried about ‘behind ideas’. Will the Palestinians, (and by extension – Arabs), forget their dream of destroying Israel? What will they do if a peace treaty is signed but the preaching from the mosques will be incessant hatred of Israel. We have an intelligent population who mostly know how to differentiate between right and wrong. I cannot say that for the Palestinian population who have a penchant for frothing bearded lunatics spouting hatred of anything non Muslim.

p29

Ministry of Jerusalem Affairs

In coordination and cooperation with relevant PNA ministries and governmental agencies, the Ministry of Jerusalem Affairs (MoJA) has the following objectives:

Preserve the Arab identity of Jerusalem as the eternal capital of the Palestinian people and prevent attempts to alter its demographic character and cultural landmarks through:

 Lobbying Arab and international support for Jerusalem.

 Maintaining Jerusalem as a top priority on the Government’s agenda and highlighting its predicament in the media.

 Launching a programs to promote the steadfastness of Jerusalemites, including:

- Strengthen Palestinian institutions in Jerusalem, providing financial support to help them deliver services to citizens.
- Provide necessary legal support for Jerusalem inhabitants to enable them confront Israeli policies and measures, including house demolitions and withdrawal of ID cards.
- Provide necessary engineering expertise to prepare and submit structural plans for houses under threat of demolition and for zoning of unclassified land to convert them into residential areas.
- Provide urgent aid to evicted families.
- Develop programs to address drug addiction and consolidate social cohesion in the city.
- Provide support to housing projects in Jerusalem.
- Provide, in cooperation with relevant PNA institutions, support to secure basic educational needs, including construction of classrooms, improvement of the educational environment, and provision of adequate income for teachers
- Provide support to the commercial and tourism sectors in Jerusalem by offering loan facilities, restoring closed commercial premises and developing a program to provide funds for SMEs.

Cityca: Ben White doesn’t like what he sees in Salam Fayyad as recounted in his piece yesterday
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If White had done his homework and read the Fayyad Geneva statement he would have been rather more upbeat about him. White is a lightweight as a scholar however and does not take the extra necessary steps to complete his research. He would have enjoyed the paradox of Peres saying he was in favour of this bureaucrat who wishes to organise the Jews right out of Israel with his bustling plans for siting and settling his people. Knowing how the local Arabs typically react to bureaucracy I would say he has not got a snowball’s chance.

Anyone who argues that Fayyad doesn’t want peace because he talks about Jerusalem — and not just Arab East Jerusalem — would have to accept the argument so popular on Cif: that Netanyahu doesn’t want peace because he also talks only about Jerusalem, and even says that it will remain the undivided capital of Israel.

And seriously, Mita and Ariadne: do you really want to have Arab East Jerusalem, with its 250 000 Arabs (and growing big time), all the headache that means — and all the expense? Just figure out what the part that Ariadne posted means in terms of costs — and how much does Arab East Jerusalem add to Jerusalem’s municipal income, and to all the social and health services Arabs in East Jerusalem are entitled to? You have to be aware that there are already demands that even if East Jerusalem will become part of a Palestinian state, “human rights” require that the population there will continue to be entitled to Israeli health insurance etc.

Great article, can I cross post it?

No anti-Semitism on CiF?
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Jonathan72
25 Sep 09, 4:49pm (10 minutes ago)

I know this is unpopular to say, but the fact is the Jews mostly have themselves to blame through their lack of respect for international law and their indefensible behaviour vis-a-vis the Palestinians.

Add to this that the holocaust effect is diminishing, making it increasingly difficult for the Israelis to blackmail the rest of the world through the associated guilt complex.

Times have changed a lot since 1948, when Ben Gurion and his Labour Zionist terrorists managed to secure a large part of Palestinian land for themselves. Nobody any longer supports states based on racism and religious fundamentalism.

The West actively fights Taliban-led states – why would it accept a Jewish state based on a type of ideology, in many ways not that far from that of the Taliban, covered by a thin veneer of democracy operating within an unquestioned Zionist framework? Time has run away from these types of ideologies – so there is an important question for Israel: ideological reform and re-definition of some basics of Israel as a state.

It is difficult to see how the Middle East region can become stable if a single state, ideologically hostile to its neighbours, is the dominant military power. Hence, I see only two ways forward in this respect: either Israel must disarm, in particularly with regard to its nuclear capability, or Iran must be allowed to develop nuclear arms. A balance of terror is not desirable but it worked in the USA – USSR cold war. Maybe it could work in the Middle East. After all, neither the Israeli nor the Iranian leaders are insane.

Don’t get me wrong. I have no hidden agenda to promote here. I’m neither an Arab nor a Jew and neither against Israel as a modern, acceptable state, nor particularly pro-Palestinian. The unfortunate Palestinians have suffered from some of the most incompetent and downright idiotic leadership in modern history.

However, with the advent of Mr. Obama, it may be time for the Israelis to realise that they can’t just dictate the terms and conditions ruling the Middle East to the rest of the World.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/24/racism-antisemitism?showallcomments=true&commentpage=5&commentposted=1

I adored Jonathan’s (Jewish name, note) wide eyed innocence, didnt you? Don’t get me wrong. I have no hidden agenda to promote here.
Certainly it’s not hidden. His anti-Semitism was there for all the world to see.

OK – I’m going off-topic ..

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Desperation at CIF! Even an old fogey like Leonard Cohen is neough to get the Israel bashers going …

CifEditor

25 Sep 09, 4:13pm (about 7 hours ago)
Staff Staff

PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC

This is an article about Leonard Cohen’s concert in Israel and readers should confine their comments to matters raised in the article. Other issues can be discussed in relevant threads at the appropriate time.

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Unless moderated out of existence, of course …

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What was truly bizarre were the references by papalagi and Teacupto Barenboim – who was banned from Ramallah – as if that was Israel’s fault!!

Teacup

25 Sep 09, 3:17pm (about 8 hours ago)

Papalagi,

Damn! You beat me to it. Maestro Barenboim has worked on this for years, with little to show for it but the respect many of us have for him (and the anger of many Israelis.

I wish it were this easy.

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Dear little Teacup – Ramallah is in what you refer to as “Palestine”, even though, if I may adapt a line from your friend talknic, there is no such place on this planet, and it was the Palestinians who refused to let Barenboim or LC perform there!!

And poor old Dotty, LC’s biggest fan, seems to have been shut down.

Ariadne

Thanks. I assume the paper you are talking about is “Ending the Occupation, Establishing the State”. I was struck by this paragraph.

“…People are the most important and most precious asset in Palestine. They are central to our national
struggle and our steadfast will to secure liberation from the occupation. They will be the essential driver
of the development of the Palestinian state following independence. The Government attaches supreme
importance to developing the capacities of all Palestinian citizens. The Palestinian people have suffered
gravely from the anguish of the occupation and have shouldered heavy burdens. In addition to the
suppression of human capacity in all spheres, the occupation’s oppressive measures have left our people
with physical disabilities and psychological pain….”

The leadership of the Palestinians have failed their people for over half a century. They have wasted huge resources in human capital by opposing the Israeli state at the expense of the Palestinian people – effectively at all costs. While Fayyad may write that this was the result of the occupation, nothing can be further from the truth. Resistance to the Jewish state took priority over Palestinian society and culture, and most importantly, the future of their children.

If you will just allow me to relate a story to you about a young lady I encountered (on a job) from Afghanistan. Afghanistan is very culturally diverse. Treatment of women degraded when the Taliban came to power and imposed their (one size fits all) radical brand of Deobandism on the population. Women were no longer allowed to receive an education, and the population was ruled by strict Sharia law. As you know, adulterous women could be stoned to death.

I met a young lady a couple of years ago that immigrated from Afghanistan in about 1996. Her family are Shiites, and they felt the full force of the Sunni Taliban discrimination when the Taliban gained control of most of the country. The Taliban literally attempted to wipe out the Shia population at one point during the war. She just recently graduated from a western University and with a great deal of difficulty, I can detect her accent. She is bright and articulate. She may be gifted, I don’t know, but I doubt that she is exceptional in a population that never has experienced the opportunities that are a given in democratic societies like the US and Israel.

Palestine (like Afghanistan) represents a huge waste of human capital. Dignity, in part, comes with opportunity. Lets hope that Fayyad succeeds.