There’s none so fervent as the proselyte. Antony Lerman has turned full circle and is now a fervent and embittered enemy of Israel and mainstream Judaism who says that there are some Jews who welcome antisemitism. On Tuesday his CiF article discussed the recent criticism of the NGO ‘Human Rights Watch’. But instead of offering an analysis of the criticism, Lerman simply used it as a hook for despicable, libellous and completely unsubstantiated allegations about Jews. Let’s call a spade a spade – when viewed against the backdrop of his recent writings, that’s antisemitic and he is a nasty antisemite.
Look at some of the allegations in the article, none of which Lerman substantiates:
- that those who “outed” Marc Garlasco of Human Rights Watch said he is an antisemite;
- that those who speak out against antisemitism (such as we who started CiF Watch) hold “the international human rights movement” responsible for it;
- that Israel is the “neighbourhood bully”;
- that Richard Goldstone – the legal academic who has led the UN Inquiry into the events in January in Gaza - has been labelled a ‘traitorous Jew’ by some Jews.
And Lerman has the brazen audacity to rope in René Cassin – a Jew who was one of the prime drafters of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights – in support of these libellous smears.
So bad is the article that the Guardian was forced to correct two factual errors in it (see the italicised text at the bottom of the article). NGO Monitor posted as follows and forced a retraction:
NGOMonit
15 Sep 09, 1:53pm
Antony, please note that our organization is called NGO Monitor, not NGO Watch.
As for your allegations that Prof Steinberg is an advisor to the Lieberman led Israel Foreign Ministry this is simply not the case. Several years ago, Prof Steinberg was consulted by the ministry on matters totally unconnected to NGOs. This has no relevance to NGO Monitors role as a research organization. We demand an immediate correction of both these points.
Amusingly, one of the anti-Israel posters observed that Lerman was in fact ”conflating [NGO Monitor] with the equally risible CIFWatch”! Whether that’s the case or not is neither here nor there but its simply astounding that both Lerman and the Guardian editors made such a blunder and that the Guardian published such mendacious statements about NGO Monitor and the estimable Professor Steinberg. But then again this is the Guardian and we know that the commissioning editor, Brian Whitaker, will not stand for a bad word about Human Rights Watch and has a track record of getting things wrong.
In any case, it goes without saying that Lerman completely ignores the very real concerns about the impartiality of some NGOs when it comes to Israel, as related by NGO Monitor about Garlasco
Most disturbingly, Garlasco’s screen moniker is Flak88. The number 88 is a code for “Heil Hitler” and is used by neo-Nazis to identify themselves. The same screen name, Flak 88, was adopted by a poster at the white power website, stormfront.org. An expert in Nazism such as Garlasco would surely have been fully aware of this symbolism when he chose this name. He even uses it on his licence plate (a practice which is banned in Germany) and as a screen name on websites unrelated to his Nazi collection.
Not only does Garlasco collect Nazi memorabilia, he also claims to love to wear Nazi leather jackets, wore a shirt with the Iron Cross (nearly 5 million Iron Cross medals were awarded by the Nazis in World War Two and the symbol was so tainted that postwar Germany shunned it until 2007), wrote a 430-page book about Nazi symbols and regularly attends conventions and on line blogs with other “enthusiasts” on the same subject.
(Note that contrary to Lerman’s allegation, NGO Monitor does not call Garlasco an antisemite!)
And turning to the UN enquiry into Gaza, although Judge Goldstone’s (the Chair of the enquiry) probity is unquestioned, there is undeniable evidence that Professor Christine Chinkin, a member of the enquiry, had made up her mind that Israel was in the wrong well before she accepted the post. Lerman criticises Israel for not co-operating with the enquiry. Would he stand trial before a blatantly based jury then? Quite apart from the Chinkin issue, the reasons why Israel did not cooperate with the enquiry are spelled out in the Israel UN Ambassador’s letter near the end of the 575 page UN Report.
The legal basis of the mission is HRC Resolution 5-9/1. This resolution, beyond its inflammatory and prejudicial language, clearly provides that the mandate of the Mission is limited to investigating ”violations” by “the occupying Power, Israel, against the Palestinian People.”
Goldstone did extend the mandate of the enquiry to include Hamas’ violations of human rights. But all the history of the UN Human Rights Committee (remember Ahmadinejad’s tirade in Geneva at Durban 2) and its membership suggests that Israel was right not to cooperate – there was no hope of a fair hearing or assessment.
But Lerman doesn’t go into any of this. All he wants is a stick with which to beat mainstream Jews. No wonder he cannot find anyone – apart from the Comment is Free editors, who adore antisemitic Jews in the way that Victorian sideshow owners adored freaks or Henry VIII adored bears – to publish his bile.
And the sideshow doesn’t end there.
Two comments by Petra Marquart-Bigman were deleted from the thread by the CiF Moderators. One is reproduced below. Does anyone have the vaguest idea why it should have been deleted – apart of course from the fact that it rips Lerman to shreds?
Censored comment (reproduced in full)
PetraMB
15 Sep 09, 11:26am
Contributor
You couldnt make it up: Antony Lerman decries the ‘pollution of public discourse, but from the very start, he describes any criticism against HRW and similar organizations as “despicable attacks” that are not more than “lies”, and then he proceeds to denounce anyone who dares to argue that the reports of human rights agencies are biased against Israel as attack dogs.
Well done, Mr. Lerman.Too much here to object to – which, I guess, makes me an “attack dog”, right, Mr. Lerman? – but anyway, Ill have to live with this, so here are just a few points:
You refer to René Cassin, one of the prime drafters of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and you make the important point:
Cassin was deeply influenced by the Holocaust, and the universal declaration was drawn up in direct response to it.
So how would you explain then that according to recent news reports, UNRWA is adamant that Gaza schools need to teach human rights, but that UNRWA thought they first should politely ask if perhaps the Holocaust should also be taught — and that this was met with a furious response from Gaza’s rulers and educators? And many of these educators are likely to be the product of an UNRWA education… You see, that’s where the whole bias and double standards already begin.
And, apropos double standards: aside from Garlasco’s creepy hobby – which must have taken up quite a bit of his time, since he published a 400plus page book on Nazi awards (just on Nazi awards, nothing about American awards there, btw…), and left altogether more than 8000 messages on Internet forums where like-minded collectors engage in sometimes rather dodgy exchanges – anyway, aside from all this, it’s rather interesting to check out an interview Garlasco gave not so long ago to CBS:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/25/60minutes/main3411230_page2.shtmlAt the Pentagon, Garlasco was chief of high value targeting at the start of the Iraq war. He told 60 Minutes how many civilians he was allowed to kill around each high-value target — targets like Saddam Hussein and his leadership. ‘Our number was 30. So, for example, Saddam Hussein. If youre gonna kill up to 29 people in a strike against Saddam Hussein, thats not a problem, Garlasco explains. ‘But once you hit that number 30, we actually had to go to either President Bush, or Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld. Garlasco says, before the invasion of Iraq, he recommended 50 air strikes aimed at high-value targets — Iraqi officials.
But he says none of the targets on the list were actually killed. Instead, he says, ‘a couple of hundred civilians at least were killed.
That’s interesting because in his pronouncements about Israel, Garlasco seems to think that civilian casualties are always an indication that war crimes have been committed. And there’s more in the interview that highlights the fact that HRW staff has a rather nuanced view when it comes to the conduct of armies other than the IDF – here’s Garlasco again:
‘I dont think people really appreciate the gymnastics that the U.S. military goes through in order to make sure that theyre not killing civilians, Garlasco points out. ‘If so much care is being taken why are so many civilians getting killed? Pelley asks. ‘Because the Taliban are violating international law, says Garlasco, ‘and because the U.S. just doesnt have enough troops on the ground. You have the Taliban shielding in peoples homes. And you have this small number of troops on the ground. And sometimes the only thing they can do is drop bombs.
I think that if this kind of attitude was reflected in the reports on Israel by HRW and similar groups, then we would have a much less “polluted” debate…






65 comments
Comments feed for this article
September 16, 2009 at 2:18 am
Louise
For those who need it spelling out: “Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews” is antisemitic, see “How We Define Antisemitism”.
September 16, 2009 at 3:17 am
JerusalemMite
Nothing new about the deleted comments though.
Anything not aligned with the Guardian World View is on perilous grounds.
September 16, 2009 at 3:29 am
exiledlondoner
Witchfinder General Louise is at it again….
“Let’s call a spade a spade – when viewed against the backdrop of his recent writings, that’s antisemitic and he is a nasty antisemite.”
“For those who need it spelling out: “Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews” is antisemitic…”
Actually, “making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective” could be anti-semitic according to the EUMC working definition…
…which is all rather irrelevent seeing as Anthony Lerman has done no such thing.
He has levelled his criticims at the actions of the state of Israel (not Israel itself), various political groups (not Jews in general) and various commentators (again, not Jews in general).
Sorry Louise, but being Jewish is not a magic defence against criticism (as Mr Lerman no doubt knows) – the only difference between his criticisms and yours is that yours are almost certainly libellous.
Maybe you should have the courage of your convictions, and make your accusations openly, rather than spewing lies and hatred from behind a psuedonym? I have no idea whether Mr Lerman would bother speaking to his lawyers, but I think you should give him the opportunity…
You could be the new Deborah Lipstadt!
Only problem is, Deborah Lipstadt was actually right, and her opponent really was a nasty anti-semite…
September 16, 2009 at 3:32 am
sababa
No doubt Lerman will be furious, fuuuurioussss, about the NGO Monitor correction — it’s after all not the first time this kind of thing happens to him: a few months ago, I remember reading one of his Cif pieces where he wrote about some debate in London where also a Guardian writer (Jonathan Freedland, I think) and David Hirsh from Engage were present. I didn’t go back now to try to find the piece, but as I remember, both Freedland and Hirsh popped into the thread to say that what Lerman wrote about the debate distorted completely what had been going on…
The deletion of the PetraMB comments is remarkable, since at least with the one reproduced here, it’s hard to see how deleting it could be justified. But maybe it’s enough justification to delete a comment if it shows convincingly that the author of the piece is just a bigot?
I also have to say that I felt a bit queasy about Lerman’s use of the “pollution” metaphor here: so those who think HRW and organization like them, and Goldstone, are biased, “pollute” the debate if they speak up to defend Israel against this bias? To my taste, that reeks a bit of all the “poisoning wells”, spreading disease etc tropes, because it would have been so easy to express dismay about the debate in different terms: it’s too polarized, too polemic, etc.
September 16, 2009 at 4:11 am
Mita
Lerman’s constant error lies in that he defends people and bodies without real grounds. As a journalist or an op-ed writer he is in my eyes obligated to be objective and to look at both parties critically. He however assumes the justice of the HRW cause and the guilt of Israel. Why is this? I can only feel that he is a good servant of whomever he sees as his benefactor at the time. With a token nod to truth he completely adopts the position of advocate of the anti-Israeli cause.
Who is Lerman to judge Israel in advance? What personal proof does he have of our guilt and their probity? None except his assumptions.
September 16, 2009 at 4:15 am
Louise
I am deeply honoured to be compared to Professor Lipstadt.
Thank you.
I am unworthy of the comparison but I do my best.
September 16, 2009 at 4:30 am
peterthehungarian
Exiledlondoner
Is David Irving a Nazi?
Beeing an apologist of Nazism he definitely is.
Is Lerman an anti-Semite?
Being an apolgist of anti-Semitism he definitely is.
September 16, 2009 at 5:04 am
SnoopyTheGoon
Hi folks,
Sorry, I cannot join the mass enthusiasm about the issue of Lerman being/not being an anti-Semite. As I see it (and repeat ad nauseum on different fora) the whole issue of A-S is way too loaded and way too overused to be of much help in discussing Israel-related questions.
Isn’t it enough that Lerman, by all accounts, is a lying, anti-Israeli, obsessed, attention-seeking son of a bitch?
Why should it be that important whether he is (or isn’t – he and his buddies will swear that he isn’t of course) an anti-Semite?
My personal advice to CiF Watch will be to steer away from that A-S label by all means, concentrating on the contents of the SOB’s message and not on that unprovable and redundant issue.
Cheers.
September 16, 2009 at 7:04 am
Louise
Snoopy
He’s all those things as well
Jimmy Carter has just said that Obama is the victim of racism against blacks
Why should racism against Jews not be identified and its perpetrators named and shamed?
Is racism against blacks or Muslims also an “unprovable and redundant issue”?
September 16, 2009 at 7:10 am
Jubilation
Both our obsessives are back: Talknic as replyto and the LeonWells dynasty as PhilosOptos.
September 16, 2009 at 7:27 am
exiledlondoner
SnoopyTheGoon,
“Sorry, I cannot join the mass enthusiasm about the issue of Lerman being/not being an anti-Semite.”
I didn’t realise that I was coming over as that enthusiastic…..
“As I see it (and repeat ad nauseum on different fora) the whole issue of A-S is way too loaded and way too overused to be of much help in discussing Israel-related questions.”
Not sure I agree. I have no problem with anti-semites being named and shamed, I just have a problem with someone doing it who defines anti-semitism as whatever she says is anti-semitic.
Give my regards to Jack/Gideon when you speak to him.
September 16, 2009 at 9:03 am
SnoopyTheGoon
exiledlondoner,
In fact, I didn’t mean your comment at all, as you have probably guessed yourself (but couldn’t help being a bit cute, eh?). I’ve addressed Loise’s article, to be precise – one specific point in it.
But since you have decided to address me in any case, I should try to return the courtesy. So, to start with your comment to me:
Your statement “…I just have a problem with someone doing it who defines anti-semitism as whatever she says is anti-semitic” is quite wrong. There is a good working definition of racism, quite widely accepted: anything leveled at a certain race and perceived by its representative(s) to be racist, probably is racist. It works for African-Americans and other people, so why shouldn’t it work with Jews?
When you disagree with the my opinion of the A-S issue being useless in discussing Israel-related questions, I am not at all sure I understand your point. You know very well that these days any well-prepared anti-Israeli speaker will necessarily say (write) that a) his proponents will definitely claim that he/she is A-S, and b) the said proponents always use this retort when somebody dares (he he) to criticize Israel and c) this is the best proof that he/she is not A-S and d) he she is a Jew anyway or her/his best friends are Jooz etc. and ad nauseum.
I hope this explains my point of view sufficiently.
More in the next comment.
September 16, 2009 at 9:05 am
Louise
“There is a good working definition of racism, quite widely accepted”
In Britain I believe it is called the Macpherson definition
September 16, 2009 at 9:20 am
SnoopyTheGoon
exiledlondoner, (continued)
Regarding your spirited attack on Loise – you call her post libelous, without actually addressing a single point you consider libelous. Instead, you are splitting hairs about the EUMC definition of A-S (is it really that important whether lawyers of EUMC put “could be” instead of “is”? – you tell me).
Or, the “at the actions of the state of Israel (not Israel itself)” nitpick. You would probably agree that, as people who have elected the current government, we all are responsible for its action. So why the nitpicking?
Otherwise, I absolutely agree that “being Jewish is not a magic defence against criticism” and will definitely pass (actually already done so) your greetings to J/G.
Cheers.
September 16, 2009 at 9:24 am
SnoopyTheGoon
Oops, Loise, I am sorry to occupy so much space here for arguing with another commenter. Yeah, and you are surely right on the source of that definition. My poor mind is too chaotic to remember sources.
September 16, 2009 at 9:51 am
exiledlondoner
SnoopyTheGoon,
“Your statement “…I just have a problem with someone doing it who defines anti-semitism as whatever she says is anti-semitic” is quite wrong. There is a good working definition of racism, quite widely accepted: anything leveled at a certain race and perceived by its representative(s) to be racist, probably is racist. It works for African-Americans and other people, so why shouldn’t it work with Jews?”
It does. “Anything levelled at a certain race” being as important as “and perceived by its representative(s) to be racist”.
Now if it said “or” rather than “and”. Louise might have a point.
“You know very well that these days any well-prepared anti-Israeli speaker will necessarily say (write) that a) his proponents will definitely claim that he/she is A-S, and b) the said proponents always use this retort when somebody dares (he he) to criticize Israel and c) this is the best proof that he/she is not A-S and d) he she is a Jew anyway or her/his best friends are Jooz etc. and ad nauseum.”
Regarding a) I haven’t done so – b) depends on the proponent – c) I haven’t said that either, and d) I’m not – some of them are, but what’s that got to do with the price of fish?
“I hope this explains my point of view sufficiently. More in the next comment.”
I’ll wait for the rest before commenting.
“Regarding your spirited attack on Loise – you call her post libelous, without actually addressing a single point you consider libelous.”
Calling Anthony Lerman “a nasty anti-semite”? Of course it’s potentially libelous. David Irving didn’t lose because the accusation was not damaging – he lost because he’s an anti-semite and Holocaust denier.
“Instead, you are splitting hairs about the EUMC definition of A-S (is it really that important whether lawyers of EUMC put “could be” instead of “is”? – you tell me).”
Very important – words often are.
The difference between “could be, taking into account the context” and “is”, is the difference between reasonable suspicion and conviction.
“Or, the “at the actions of the state of Israel (not Israel itself)” nitpick. You would probably agree that, as people who have elected the current government, we all are responsible for its action. So why the nitpicking?”
Would I? I probably wouldn’t.
Try accusing me for being responsible for the war in Iraq, and see if I agree?
Are Hamas terrorists? Yes. Are people who voted for Hamas terrorists? No.
“Otherwise, I absolutely agree that “being Jewish is not a magic defence against criticism” and will definitely pass (actually already done so) your greetings to J/G.”
Cheers for that.
“Oops, Loise, I am sorry to occupy so much space here for arguing with another commenter. Yeah, and you are surely right on the source of that definition. My poor mind is too chaotic to remember sources.”
Too chaotic to remember details as well?
The MacPherson report said that the police should investigate a reported crime as a racially motivated crime, if the victim said that they thought it was racially motivated.
It didn’t say that something actually was racially motivated if anyone said it was.
September 16, 2009 at 9:54 am
Jacob-Alain
Easier for Lerman to say, “that Richard Goldstone – the legal academic who has led the UN Inquiry into the events in January in Gaza – has been labelled a ‘traitorous Jew’ by some Jews.”
Than to actually quote Goldstone who has himself said that he wasn’t surprised that Israel is wary fo the UN human rights commission since many of its members have been demonizing that country for years.
This is not to say that I agree with Goldstones’ conclusions about the Gaza war. I am merely posting this to show how dishonest Lerman is.
And how relelvant is it that “some Jews think Goldstone a traitor.” You can find “some group of people” in every nationality who hold extreme views.
Some Brits think that the cheif Rabbi of Greta Britain “drinks blood” does that tell me anything about Lerman?
The man is a pathetic and cowardly fool.
September 16, 2009 at 9:57 am
Jacob-Alain
“Are Hamas terrorists? Yes. Are people who voted for Hamas terrorists? No.”
You need to stop thinking in absolute categories.
Hamas is a terrorist organization, and some of the people who voted for them did so knowing full well what they are. Ergo some of the voters do support Hamas’ terrorist ideology and actions.
“Otherwise, I absolutely agree that “being Jewish is not a magic defence against criticism,”
Who ever said it was?
September 16, 2009 at 10:33 am
SnoopyTheGoon
exiledlondoner,
You really excel in nitpicking, but:
“Regarding a) I haven’t done so – b) depends on the proponent – c) I haven’t said that either, and d) I’m not – some of them are, but what’s that got to do with the price of fish?”
Why have you decided that I was using you as a target? What gave you the ridiculous idea that you should defend yourself? Curious….
I agree that words could be often important, and even nitpicking could be helpful, where there is a cause. The case of “could be” instead of “is”, as I tried to hint before, is a case of a lawyer speak vs a regular Joe-talk. In my opinion, that is.
I wouldn’t accuse you of anything, the Iraqi war included, but as a responsible UK citizen (if this is who you are?) you should accuse (or congratulate, it depends) yourself. You are a willing or unwilling part of the whole deal, so here…
As for me, I do indeed feel responsible for the current and other governments, not being instrumental in election of some of them. That’s where I stand on Israeli shenanigans. I believe that any citizen of any other democracy should do the same. The “not in my name” game is too easy and too self-congratulatory. Aids one’s selective memory, too…
Calling Anthony Lerman “a nasty anti-semite” isn’t libelous IMHO. It’s a personal opinion of the person’s quality and not of the person’s activity. If I said, for example, that Lerman is stupid, would you call it a libel? How do you measure/detect/disprove stupidity?
Re MacPherson report – of course I didn’t mean it, never read it and it wasn’t the source of that definition of mine. You are being a bit hasty here.
Anyhow, what I have noticed is that you have admirably succeeded to avoid any point of substance in Loise post and my comments to you, concentrating instead in nitpicking the secondary items of no possible interest. Don’t take it personally, please, but it’s quite exhausting.
September 16, 2009 at 10:54 am
modernityblog
What Snoopy said.
It is a bit silly to call Lerman “is a nasty antisemite.”
Is Lerman the same as David Duke, that real active antisemite? Of course not.
Is Lerman the same as the Jobbik Party leadership? Of course not.
etc etc
Whilst it might be tempting to use that label there are better ways of explaining his attitude, again see Snoopy’s comments.
September 16, 2009 at 11:08 am
Louise
Lerman is Jewish. As far as I am aware David Duke is not. Nor the Jobbik Party leadership.
From the victims’ standpoint, that compounds the offence.
September 16, 2009 at 11:15 am
modernityblog
Therefore, it would be wrong and mere political hyperbole to overuse the term “antisemite”.
Because if Lerman isn’t the same as David Duke, or other certified antsemites then it is silly to use the term, as it invites comparisons and loses its significance by overuse.
September 16, 2009 at 11:16 am
Jubilation
These talknics breed so fast it’s hard to keep up. There’s already a new generation: represented by Ranong.
September 16, 2009 at 11:21 am
Louise
‘Nasty’ refers to the repeated and intentional offences.
It is not possible to grade an antisemitic incident.
An incident is either racist or it isn’t. There is no such thing as ‘very racist’ or ‘a little bit racist’.
I would not call the perpetrator of a thoughtless isolated incident an ‘antisemite’ though I would call the incident ‘antisemitic’.
In Lerman’s case they are premeditated and frequent.
September 16, 2009 at 11:59 am
sababa
Louise, I would suggest there are 2 different issues here:
one is the question whether or not it is justified to call Lerman “a nasty antisemite;
and the other is that Snoopy argued that it isn’t particularly helpful to bring in antisemitism when discussing the I-P conflict.
Now, are these 2 issues connected? I would put it this way: I agree with Snoopy that in I-P debates, one obviously has to argue in terms of substance, i.e. show that fact x is wrong, or that opinion x rests on a flawed argument, or is bigoted/hypocritical because it reflects double standards etc.
Once you bring antisemitism into such a debate, you basically argue about motivations, i.e. you say that the person who has opinion x, which you showed to be hypocritical etc. holds on to this opinion due to antisemitic views.
Lerman has written enough stuff that it would be possible to make this case because he clearly holds Jews to all sorts of standards and judges Israel according to all sorts of criteria that he wouldn’t want to apply to other groups or other countries — if he did, he wouldn’t judge Jews and Israel so harshly.
However, the problem here is perhaps that you are not so much interested in the I-P debate per se, but rather in showing that articles posted on Cif contain antisemitic elements, and therefore attract a crowd that likes this kind of stuff, and that uses Cif as a platform to post views that reflect antisemitic leanings.
The question is also what exactly it is you hope to achieve: one thing that isn’t so difficult is to simply point to comments that include antisemitic tropes, and if necessary to explain why this is so; and to highlight examples to show a biased moderation/deletion policy etc.
But when you write about a piece by x, in this case Lerman, and call him right away “a nasty antisemite”, you simply also risk that some people will right away wholeheartedly agree, while other will right away switch off, and maybe even stop to read.
So in this sense, I think Snoopy’s point is also valid here: what do you gain?
I agree with you that it must be allowed to point out antisemitism, but if we don’t want to devalue this by overuse, we also have to be very responsible about it.
Here in the case of Lerman, — whose stuff I find hair-raising –, I would doubt that he is motivated by antisemitism — it’s just that in his eagerness to be a “good Jew”, i.e. have views that would be applauded by the Guardian super-progressives, he writes stuff that ultimately feeds antisemitism.
September 16, 2009 at 12:09 pm
peterthehungarian
Exiledlondoner
I read your opus on the Kosky thread and sent an answer, but it somehow didn’t serve useful purposes in CIFspeak so disappeared in the darkest corners of the web so I repost it to you here:
exiledlondoner
16 Sep 09, 12:44pm (about 4 hours ago)
A group of policemen knock on my door.
Sargeant (to me): “Mr Londoner, we’re investigating a complaint from your neighbours. They say they saw you murder your wife and bury her under the patio.”
Me (to Sargeant): So?
Sargeant (to me): “Well we would like to investigate. Maybe dig up your patio?”
Me (to Sargeant): “Sorry, but I’m not going to cooperate with you.”
Meanwhile two coppers have jumped over the fence and unearthed my wife.
Policemen: “Sarge, we’ve found a body!
Me (to Sargeant): “Tough. I’m still not going to cooperate, and I’m going to tell everyone that you’re only investigating me because you hate Londoners”.
Sargeant (to policemen): “OK lads. Nothing more we can do here. Back to the station for a cup of tea.”
Sargeant (to me): “Well Mr Londoner, if you ever change your mind about cooperating, could you let us know?”
Me (to Sargeant): “Racist pig!”
———————————————————————————————-
Seeing that you descended to real Berchmanian depths I suggest to add some color to your black-and white drama.
Sargeant (to me): “Mr Londoner, we’re investigating a complaint from some of your neighbours. They say they saw you murder your wife and bury her under the patio.”
Me (to Sargeant): They must be the Smiths, they hate me because my house is bigger and they incited my wife against me, wanted her to kill me even supplied her with a big knife. Please ask my other neighbors about it.
Lieutenant (to Sargeant): Sargeant don’t listen to Londoner at all. Every Londoners have big nose, they control the media and are the descendants of pigs and monkeys. Anyway our lawyers declared him guilty already before the investigation.”
Me (to Sargeant): “Sorry, but I’m not going to cooperate with you.”
Meanwhile two coppers have jumped over the fence and unearthed my wife with a huge knife in her hand.
Policemen: “Sarge, we’ve found a thousand bodies!
Me (to Sargeant): “I’m still not going to cooperate, and I’m going to tell everyone that you’re only investigating me because you hate Londoners and anyway you have decided already that I’m the killer”.
Sargeant (to policemen): “OK lads. Nothing more we can do here. Back to the station for a cup of tea and we can discuss there the new idea of our captain Brian Lerner how to catch Londoner.”
Sargeant (to me): ” Our ethics experts Mr. Jack the Ripper, Mr. Al Capone, His Majesty Attila the Hun, and comrade Yosif Stalin will condemn your unethical behavior to the UNSC.”
Me (to Sargeant): “Racist pig! You can’t accuse me falsely again because some bloggers made public the proofs of your total incompetence and dishonesty!”
September 16, 2009 at 12:35 pm
modernityblog
“It is not possible to grade an antisemitic incident.
An incident is either racist or it isn’t. There is no such thing as ‘very racist’ or ‘a little bit racist’.
I would not call the perpetrator of a thoughtless isolated incident an ‘antisemite’ though I would call the incident ‘antisemitic’.”
Louise, but now you’ve slightly shifted from the individual to the views that he’s putting over. That is a different argument.
I have *no* disagreement when you take his views and show how that *thinking* is antisemitic in origin or similar.
But where I do disagree is the characterization of an individual as an antisemite, when there are equally valid explanations.
I hope you see the difference?
I think dealing with the *ideas* is good, but labeling individuals is not so helpful, unless of course, they are like David Duke, the BNP, the KKK, etc as it personalizes what should really be a discussion about the issues.
September 16, 2009 at 12:52 pm
ASQuoteBuster
http://cifwatch.com/2009/09/13/lerman-no-jews-no-big-deal/
I just linked to this (above) on the Reider thread
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/16/israel-judaism-national-identity?commentpage=1&commentposted=1
(it is relevant)
and was banned ……..
September 16, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Louise
Modernity
If I may say so you are being excessively analytical about racism
Racism is illogical and does not deserve parsing
In any case I am being logical. An incident is antisemitic but the perpetrator is not necessarily an antisemite until there is premeditation and repetition. The “personalisation” as you call it comes then. What’s wrong with that? How can you separate the racism from the racist?
September 16, 2009 at 1:07 pm
modernityblog
Louise,
Maybe so, but I think that the excessive personalization of these disputes detracts from the wider issues.
The overusage of words tends to devalue them, and I don’t think that Anthony Lerman as an individual is particularly important, rather his pernicious arguments are, thus personalizing it weakens the case, and allows him to play the victim.
That’s what I am trying to get at.
September 16, 2009 at 1:35 pm
MannyBloom
Is this blog for real?
You people must be a joke.
You know NOTHING of real anti-semitism.
September 16, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Louise
It’s a judgment call and we come down on different sides of the judgment which is fine.
ASQB: Thanks for recording the deleted post here, it is important that all such posts should be collected here. Maybe you can tell us if you are Jewish – you can email offline to our ‘Info’ address if you want.
If posts by Jews are being disproportionately deleted then The Guardian is being explicitly antisemitic (sorry Modernity but there is no other word for it).
Modernity: Is it possible that your perception of the ‘overusage’ of the AS word is simply because only now are Jews starting to name and shame?
September 16, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Louise
“MannyBloom”
Great moniker – straight out of the “Names Which If They are At The Bottom Of Letters About Israel I Do Not Read Them” book by Richard Ingrams
That comment was most interesting but you have kept us all hanging in the air.
Why don’t you amplify it?
(which means, say a little more about what you mean ….)
September 16, 2009 at 1:52 pm
modernityblog
Louise,
Two points, and I’ll leave it at that.
“The Guardian is being explicitly antisemitic (sorry Modernity but there is no other word for it).”
You mean the Guardian publishes, daily, salacious gossip about Jews?
Or has antisemitic cartoons popping out of every other page? Is the Guardian somehow similar to Der Stürmer? because *if* isn’t, then that is merely hyperbole.
And that as far as I can see is the problem, the overuse of words and exaggeration of these positions. It is a clumsy mischaracterisation which leads to sweeping judgements where everything is either one thing or another.
Not many shades of grey in that approach and it is detrimental to analysing the phenomena of modern day antisemitism, in my view.
“Modernity: Is it possible that your perception of the ‘overusage’ of the AS word is simply because only now are Jews starting to name and shame?”
No, my perception is born from years of studying the Far Right, and being able to differentiate between wingbags like Lerman, and the genuine article (neo-Nazis, etc) that would gladly firebomb synagogues if they could.
That’s where my perception comes from.
Let’s leave at that.
September 16, 2009 at 1:53 pm
exiledlondoner
SnoopyTheGoon,
“Why have you decided that I was using you as a target? What gave you the ridiculous idea that you should defend yourself? Curious….”
Having already been identified as an anti-semite, a Holocaust denier, and a Jew-Baiter (the last by the author of this thread), I think it’s always better to answer points (not defend them) head on….
“I agree that words could be often important, and even nitpicking could be helpful, where there is a cause. The case of “could be” instead of “is”, as I tried to hint before, is a case of a lawyer speak vs a regular Joe-talk. In my opinion, that is.”
Fine, but do you think “regular Joe-talk” is suitable for an organisation who claims to use a recognised methodology for identifying anti-semitism?
“I wouldn’t accuse you of anything, the Iraqi war included, but as a responsible UK citizen (if this is who you are?) you should accuse (or congratulate, it depends) yourself. You are a willing or unwilling part of the whole deal, so here…”
It happened despite me, just as many things happen in Israel or elsewhere despite the people – even those who voted for the Government. People vote on a basket of issues, and even when people vote on the issue of ‘security’ in Israel, or ‘resistance to occupation’ in the occupied territories, they do so with many things in mind.
“As for me, I do indeed feel responsible for the current and other governments, not being instrumental in election of some of them. That’s where I stand on Israeli shenanigans. I believe that any citizen of any other democracy should do the same. The “not in my name” game is too easy and too self-congratulatory. Aids one’s selective memory, too…”
I don’t think I’ve ever said “not in my name” – I believe that citizens should be active in changing what they don’t like. I accept that we share as societies a collective responsibility, but that isn’t a collective guilt.
“Calling Anthony Lerman “a nasty anti-semite” isn’t libelous IMHO. It’s a personal opinion of the person’s quality and not of the person’s activity. If I said, for example, that Lerman is stupid, would you call it a libel? How do you measure/detect/disprove stupidity?”
I wouldn’t say that being called ‘stupid’ is libelous – at least I hope not.
The point is that Louise didn’t just say that Lerman was a nasty anti-semite, she said that according to the EUMC Working Definition he’s a nasty anti-semite.
As the EUMC has some credibility (I have issues with it, but many don’t), that CIF Watch claims to use it as their ‘metre’, and that CIF Watch has actually edited the text of it, I would have thought that a reasonable case exists for claiming malicious libel. I may be wrong?
“Re MacPherson report – of course I didn’t mean it, never read it and it wasn’t the source of that definition of mine. You are being a bit hasty here.”
No – what you quoted wasn’t from the MacPherson report. I don’t have a problem with your definition, so long as it applied honestly.
“Anyhow, what I have noticed is that you have admirably succeeded to avoid any point of substance in Loise post and my comments to you, concentrating instead in nitpicking the secondary items of no possible interest.”
Was there a point of substance in Louise’s post?
As for your posts, I thought I had answered them point by point? Which may be why you write….
“Don’t take it personally, please, but it’s quite exhausting.”
Don’t worry, I rarely do.
September 16, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Louise
Modernity
“You mean the Guardian publishes, daily, salacious gossip about Jews?”
The Guardian publishes daily articles about Israel and Judaism which are biased and which include many violations of the EUMC Definition of antisemitism.
The Guardian relies on unpaid Jewish readers to moderate these articles and the posts below them for these violations.
We don’t like identifying it any more than you don’t like seeing it spelled out. But after years of ignoring complaints we are left with no choice.
If there is an alternative, please share it.
September 16, 2009 at 2:12 pm
sababa
modernity, I agree with many points you made here, but I think you’re dead wrong when you write this:
“my perception is born from years of studying the Far Right, and being able to differentiate between wingbags like Lerman, and the genuine article (neo-Nazis, etc) that would gladly firebomb synagogues if they could.”
This sounds as if you believe that antisemitism is defined by what the Nazis did, end of — which is of course exactly the line Lerman takes: he holds that there is no such thing as the “new antisemitism”, i.e. an antisemitism that allows some Jews to be “good Jews” by distancing themselves from the eeeevil Jewish state… Or, to put it differently, a new form of antisemitism that no longer has as its object Jews in general, but substitutes Israel and “Zionists” for Jews.
The kind of antisemitism you seem to be looking for would indeed still be found mainly on the right, but I think there is no question that the anti-Zionism that is so fashionable on the left does often serve as a cover for antisemitic sentiments and attitudes — and it is of this latter variety that Lerman is guilty of, though of course he would deny that there is such a thing as a new form of antisemitism that hides behind “anti-Zionism”.
September 16, 2009 at 2:44 pm
MannyBloom
Louise
I should explain myself?
No, you should explain yourself.
You may not agree with this person named Lerman.
Perhaps I do not agree with Lerman but anti-semitic?
You shame real victims of all racisms. Grow up.
September 16, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Louise
A troll of limited vocabulary. I feared as much.
September 16, 2009 at 3:11 pm
sababa
MannyBloom, maybe you should educate yourself about Lerman?
“Moreover, by repeating the thesis that Israeli actions are responsible for anti-Semitism, Lerman proves what he himself is. Blaming anti-Semitism on the Jews is not a new idea, and we know where it comes from.”
http://zionism-israel.com/israel_news/2008/09/antony-lerman-defends-jewish-anti.html
September 16, 2009 at 3:33 pm
SnoopyTheGoon
exiledlondoner.
OK, let’s hash out the remaining points.
“Fine, but do you think “regular Joe-talk” is suitable for an organisation who claims to use a recognised methodology for identifying anti-semitism?”
Organization? A few folks who decided to cripple a bit the notorious CiF? Surely you are exaggerating – unless you suspect that it’s a Mossad front here. Expecting regular Joes to follow the letter of EU legalese? Come on…
‘I don’t think I’ve ever said “not in my name”’ – but you did, implicitly, by hinting that Blair’s government was responsible, not you personally.
“The point is that Louise didn’t just say that Lerman was a nasty anti-semite, she said that according to the EUMC Working Definition he’s a nasty anti-semite.”
Which is still her personal opinion about some person’s character and not about some person’s deeds. Supported by EU or not. So yes, I think that you are wrong in this case. Which is, of course, my personal opinion
“No – what you quoted wasn’t from the MacPherson report.”
I wish I have a written source to quote, it was an attempt to recover something said by somebody cleverer than I am.
“Was there a point of substance in Louise’s post?”
Quite a few, I suggest, dealing with Lermans’ deeds (misdeeds, rather). Aside of that unfortunate A-S issue, which distracts and detracts, IMHO.
“As for your posts, I thought I had answered them point by point?”
Not the first one, I think, but it was a long day, so…
Yeah, and I suggest that for continuation of our discussion you may visit SJ over there. I am sure J/G will be happy to join.
I am afraid, though, that on SJ our policy is not to use the A-S moniker, we prefer other expletives and you may be bored there
September 16, 2009 at 3:49 pm
exiledlondoner
SnoopyTheGoon,
Got a plane to catch in a couple of hours, but I will get back to you, either here, or on your blog.
Just one thought for you (and everyone here) – if you look at all Anthony Lerman’s threads, you might just notice that there are hardly any comments from me. The same goes for Ben White, Seamus Milne, and a host of other writers on both sides of the fence. I read the article and move on.
If I actually thought that any of them were genuinely dangerous, I’d probably post, but frankly most are pretty dull, and quite silly, and if I do post, it’s normally in relation to a poster, not the writer.
When I’ve got the cash, I want to buy a mouse with a titanium scroll-wheel – just for what doesn’t interest me. I would suggest that others do the same (including on my own long-winded offerings) – reading is optional.
September 16, 2009 at 4:23 pm
augie
MannyBloom
“You may not agree with this person named Lerman.
Perhaps I do not agree with Lerman but anti-semitic?
You shame real victims of all racisms. Grow up.”
There many kinds of antisemitism and many types of victims and kinds of victimization.
Publishing blood libel accusations of organ harvesting is one kind, calling for the extermination of Jews is another kind, forcing Jews to convert is still another kind and so is blaiming Jews for antisemitism.
It is you who needs to do some reading about the nature and kinds of antisemitism around.
September 16, 2009 at 5:15 pm
AKUS
exiledlondoner – “silly” is pretty descriptive of Lerman as he twists and turns – nauseating might be better.
But if you want a view of CIF and those who comment there at its finest, take a look at the latest Dhimmi Reider thread – absolutely disgusting posts by all and sundry. You might find reason to drop a pearl or two of wisdom there.
September 16, 2009 at 5:27 pm
Louise
Dhimmi Reider thread: This pond-life is a reptilian antisemite as well as a lier …….. and it has been there for two hours……..
libertarianSW
16 Sep 09, 8:00pm (about 2 hours ago)
The Torah is clear: No marriage with Gentiles …….
September 16, 2009 at 5:30 pm
MannyBloom
English is my third language. Perhaps my vocabulary is limited but it is sufficent to recognise the shit of bulls.
September 16, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Bullshit detective
Speaking as not a Jew I find it incredible and breathtakingly patronising to imply that an experience of racism is untrue or misinterpreted etc. I feel that racism is defined by the victim not the perpetrator and if people feel that statements, stereotypes, caricatures, slanders, generalisations etc. are racist then they are racist – no debate or criticism necessary but it requires an exploration of the root causes and a determined effort to challenge and isolate the protagonists of the racism.
I get the distinct impression from some posters here and definitely on CIF that if someone Jewish states that they consider something anti-semitic then that is not enough and they have to explain and justify why it is racist (even then it is not accepted) – does this happen with any other form of racism? I doubt it very much and it is a form of racism itself which implies Jewish people are paranoid, will try and find anti-semitism everywhere and therefore is not real. I for one despise this attitude and feel that if someone experiences something as racist then it is racist – end of.
September 16, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Louise
MannnyBloom
I’m not surprised you are an expert in bovine faeces (there, you have learnt a new English expression) since your posts seem to consist exclusively of that substance.
September 16, 2009 at 6:16 pm
MannyBloom
I’m not surprised you are an expert in bovine faeces (there, you have learnt a new English expression) since your posts seem to consist exclusively of that substance.
Let me prove your words-
I express my profound apologies.
Jews throughout the world should be grateful for your valuable work in defending them.
September 16, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Louise
Re those English classes: Come back you’ve done the ‘irony’ module