Well Dan Rickman, CiF’s most recently anointed useful idiot, is at it again taking aim at orthodox Judaism.
The first point to take issue with on Dan Rickman’s piece, is in the sub-heading itself, namely, “fundamentalist currents have moved Orthodox Judaism in the UK to the right”.
This statement represents a failure to understand what is actually happening within British Jewry, namely that there has been an upsurge of interest in authentic Judaism amongst all sections of the community and across the age divide. The core beliefs expounded by orthodox Judaism have not changed, indeed, may not change.
This upsurge is the raison d’etre for Rickman’s article, and is at the core of his annoyance—he dislikes the return to orthodox values, and dresses this up using specious arguments.
A true definition of the word “fundamentalism” is given by one dictionary as “a strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles”, which is a good starting point from which to deconstruct Rickman’s tendentious article.
As no rational person could argue against the idea that it is bad to adhere strictly to principles which are inherently good, Rickman’s only way forward is to undermine the principles of orthodox Judaism themselves, in order to “prove” his point.
Here, he is on dangerous ground, for anyone with any knowledge at all of the genuine article, will immediately recognise the gross inaccuracies, mischievous assertions and indeed oft-repeated, hoary old chestnuts on which he bases his ”argument”.
Let us examine some of these in more depth.
He states that orthodox Jewish “fundamentalists” essentially reject modernity and secular knowledge where it clashes with their beliefs, which are themselves based on a literalist approach to the sources (incluing Maimonides’ 13 principles of faith).
The whole point is that there is no contradiction between orthodoxy and modern scientific beliefs. Let him give but one example, but of course, he is very coy about specifics because he cannot.
The recent strictly orthodox Nobel prize winners in the science disciplines are testament to that. It is inconceivable that such people would compromise scientific truths to accomodate their religious beliefs.
The statement that the vogue for the Intelligent Design theory has been incorporated into modern orthodox teaching is untrue, and certainly false that outreach organisations, like Aish, give seminars on it.
It has been rejected as scientifically wrong and rejected by orthodox scientific experts.
One powerful example of how orthodox rabbinic ruling has not only accomodated the most recent scientific advances as “kosher” but is actually in the forefront of liberal values, is in the realm of embryo research and cutting edge experimentation. It is deemed not only acceptable, but desirable, at a time when some atheists fear it who invoke the “slippery slope” argument.
When Rickman mentions Maimonides to try to win his case, he neglects to say that the latter, a distinguished physician of the day, himself wrestled with the apparent contradictions between the Aristotlean views and Judaism, but then held that these are dealt with by a thorough understanding of the texts, as opposed to just a superficial reading.
Neither does he mention the most important contribution that authentic Judaism bequeathed to the world, namely, that of the ethical values that make human beings into civilised beings, i.e. the laws governing the codes of behaviour that make life tolerable, indeed, even pleasant.
These values are not innate to human thinking, but had to be taught. The idea that Judaism is a fossilised faith stuck in a trough of hard-line, inflexible beliefs is the impression that Rickman wishes to foist upon his readers.
Even he must surely know that Judaism is based on the ancient tradition of the “oral law”. This means that the written law, ie. The Pentateuch, is never taken at face value, but rather viewed as a multi-dimensional expression of divine will. The Talmud, which is a commentary of the oral law, contains volume upon volume of argument by earlier and later commentators, so that the laws we hold today are those decided by the majority of the qualified opinions of the day.
Indeed, in the tractate of Baba Kama in the Talmud, it explicitly states that it is forbidden to misrepresent Judaism, no matter how noble the intention.
The idea that orthodox Jewish “fundamentalists” essentially reject modernity and secular knowledge where it clashes with their beliefs is most obviously seen to be false is in the embodiment of the personality of Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, who is highly educated and widely respected both in the secular and Jewish worlds, and finds no conflict between them—just the contrary—each complements and enriches the other.
When Rickman says that Orthodox Jews continues to believe that the Torah was divinely ordained, and this is supposedly contrary to ‘evidence from modern Biblical scholarship’, he omits to say that such ‘proof’ is not exactly something one could demonstrate in a laboratory, and so will always remain questionable. In any case what harm is there if people believe that it was divinely ordained?
Finally, in his attempt to demonise orthodox Judaism as a backward, unforgiving creed, best relegated to history, he writes that
“fundamentalism encourages a totalitarian rather than a democratic mindset, which is characterised by rejection of enlightenment values, which is at the core of a wider challenge to western democratic society”.
In so doing, he wickedly draws a false equivalence between the “fundamentalism” of different faiths and creeds.
No-one could argue that, say, Buddhist fundamentalism could ever pose a danger to anyone, which is what Rickman wishes to taint Judaism with, i.e. its supposed threat to peace and civilised values. Let him ponder which “fundamentalism” is truly evil and a real threat to humanity, on the 8th. anniversary of 9/11, but we can wait a long time before he does, or before CiF would publish if he did.






106 comments
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September 13, 2009 at 8:07 am
Teacup
Peter,
Two caveats.
1. I do take interest in discussions with Petra, I find her interesting.
2. I forgot to ask you, when you check up the Afghanistan and Indian subcontinental threads, check up on GeorgeIndia. Then see what he has to say on I/P. I think you should focus on him first.
September 13, 2009 at 8:10 am
Teacup
Hawkeye,
We must be reading different articles! LWOJ has been on-thread except for the Sabbath and since he is travelling.
Phoooooooooooooo!
September 13, 2009 at 8:22 am
Yvonne
Hawkeye, it concerns me that every tame Jew on CiF (and the anti-Israel writers there in general) are so quick to project their woeful shortcomings onto this site.
I give you Rickman’s latest lame attempt to accuse you and this site of doing what CiF never fails to do – of stifling debate – that’s as transparent as the best glass and is paranoid projection of the first order. This has given me a clue as to why such as he are attracted to such a site – perhaps they feel most secure amongst equally paranoid people. It has to say a lot of things about CiF (and none of them good) that it enables such people.
And then we get Teacup who “isn’t” antisemitic (no, not much!) but bleats that everyone is getting at her because she criticises Israel. CiF gives her the most fertile conditions to express hate-filled views which more discerning and reputable sites wouldn’t allow on line, but she makes the mistake of believing she should be afforded the same leeway among more civilised people.
Teacup, listen up please. I am about to offer you an important piece of advice.
By all means criticise Israel – it is your right and many Israelis themselves do so – but be very careful that you don’t do so by parroting antisemitic tropes which would lead people quite rightly to accuse you of being antisemitic. I have seen posts from you on CiF fall within that category, and it’s up to you to educate yourself about how you might be offending Jewish people and to learn not to do it.
Don’t expect special treatment if you forget or if you can’t be bothered.
And I, too, would appreciate it if you answered PetertheHungarian’s questions above. I, too, would like to know your motives for criticising only Israel when your own country needs so much improvement. You live there. Spend your energies in cleaning up your own backyard before you criticise the state of other people’s.
September 13, 2009 at 8:31 am
Teacup
Hi Yvonne,
No dear, I have no intention of trying to prove negatives. If you want to think of me as anti-semitic, go right ahead. I will continue to say what I think on any forum on the internet that is open to me. If you don’t like what I write don’t read it.
Back to the real world, I hope that all you had a good weekend.
Phir milenge!
September 13, 2009 at 8:34 am
Yvonne
You’ve deflected from PetertheHungarian’s questions, Teacup, which is distinctly suss, isn’t it?
And you agree that CiF runs articles which have virulent anti-Israel comments? Well I guess it’s a start that you can actually recognise them.
And it also gives you no excuse to join in with virulent (rather than reasoned and well-thought-out) criticism of Israel’s policies themselves rather than its people because they are who they are.
It should be a good learning experience for you, shouldn’t it, to think about the difference between criticism of Israel’s policies which has to be free and appropriate and should be applicable to the governments of any other countries, and joining in with the sort of CiF mouth-breathers who would deny her the right to exist if they could.
Try it. I am sure you will gain much from it.
September 13, 2009 at 8:38 am
Yvonne
Sorry, third para above to Teacup should read:
“And it also gives you no excuse to join in with virulent (rather than reasoned and well-thought-out) criticism of Israel’s people because they are who they are, rather than its government’s policies.
September 13, 2009 at 8:38 am
exiledlondoner
JerusalemMite,
“I was referring to your argumentative discourse and tirades against classifying certain CI(F) commenters as antisemitic. And bear witness, that it seems that even though you are being as argumentative as you possibly can, you are still posting here.”
That’s strange, I could have sworn you wrote “One would almost think that Exiled is taunting the site’s owner/s to put him on the list of ‘CiF Commenters’.”?
Anyway, I’ll try not to argue my case in future…..
Hawkeye,
“There you have it. LWOJ backs out again from debating his article.”
Where did you get that idea? Dan has been debating his article.
Or do you mean he should treck round the blogsphere to find you, and comment not about what he actually wrote, but on your perversion of what he wrote, that serves as an ‘article’ on CIF Watch?
I haven’t seen you on Dan’s thread – but would I know if you were? You use different psuedonyms for different purposes, don’t you?
‘Hawkeye’ accuses Dan Rickman of cowardice! You couldn’t make it up….
September 13, 2009 at 8:45 am
Yvonne
Teacup, please don’t “dear” me. I outrank you in every particular.
I have seen posts of yours which in which there are antisemitic tropes. Perhaps you didn’t realise but ignorance is no excuse for giving offence.
And by continuing to say what you think on any forum, are you meaning continuing to say antisemitic things if you so wish? Well I guess that the www is the equivalent of a free country and CiF offers particular freedom to people of your ilk but not to those you may insult to defend themselves.
September 13, 2009 at 8:49 am
Mita
Exile:
but would I know if you were? You use different psuedonyms for different purposes, don’t you?
‘Hawkeye’ accuses Dan Rickman of cowardice! You couldn’t make it up….
——–
How about a bit of straight thinking. Considering the views Hawkeye expresses about cif and considering what you know about their deletion/moderation/banning practices, do you think he would last a day if he admitted he was say, Exiledlondoner or Teacup?
That people in cifwatch use cifwatch pseudonyms to conceal their CIF pseudonyms is directly attributable to the policy at CIF and a fairly damning crit of CIF’s policy. I know of no other website that bans people and deletes entries as freely.
September 13, 2009 at 9:00 am
Demeter
“..Or do you mean he should treck (sic round the blogsphere to find you, and comment not about what he actually wrote, but on your perversion of what he wrote, that serves as an ‘article’ on CIF Watch?…”
Well you must be fond of “trecking” as you call it. You found us for whatever bizarre reason so why shouldn’t Rickman?
And at least Rickman would get the chance to defend himself here against what you call (but I respectfully disagree) CiFWatch’s “perversion” of what he wrote.
How many pro-Israel posters (Jewish or otherwise) get as free a chance to defend themselves against the actual perversions on CiF, on CiF itself below the line, where lies about Israel/Jews are so commonplace that CiF appears to have lost sight of what is true?
September 13, 2009 at 9:21 am
peterthehungarian
Rickmann complains that his opponents show no respect…
Maybe he should read the attacks on Benny Morris, Rachel Carmi, Carlo Strenger, PetraMB or any other “pro-Israeli” contributors on CIF. His hypocrisy is simply amazing and his brownnosing to Moeran and Papalagi speaks for itself.
Teacup
As I expected “instead of answering my lengthy question” you are speaking about other posters. I repeat in a short form: What is your motivation to obsessively attacking Israel and the Israelis (a subject you know nothing about) while living in an area and in a society with much worse problems and history?
September 13, 2009 at 9:22 am
exiledlondoner
Mita,
“How about a bit of straight thinking. Considering the views Hawkeye expresses about cif and considering what you know about their deletion/moderation/banning practices, do you think he would last a day if he admitted he was say, Exiledlondoner or Teacup?”
If he were exiledlondoner, he would be friends with Georgina – remember?
Seriously, there are scores of pro-Israel posters who have been around as long, or almost as long as I have – Peter, Sydk, Petra, Usini, Zamelak, Geoffrey Alderman, Elena, Quirky, MoveAnyMountain, Shermanator, TiredOldDog, Caplan, Shachtman etc – many who keep returning – Nadav, 1Peter, Geary etc – and some new faces – Jubi, Yotam, Contrarian, StarOfDavid etc (that’s just off the top of my head).
One has to ask what the owners of this site actually posted to get banned? Without knowing that, nobody can say whether it was justified or not. Maybe they should be as open about their history as they are about other’s? If they’ve been banned, why not say what name they were banned under, and the circumstances of their bannings?
AKUS isn’t hiding under another name, but then he believes that his banning was unjust, and is prepared to stand up and say so.
“That people in cifwatch use cifwatch pseudonyms to conceal their CIF pseudonyms is directly attributable to the policy at CIF and a fairly damning crit of CIF’s policy.”
Or a fairly damning crit of their unwillingness to open themselves up to the same scrutiny as they like to put others under?
I’d love to know Hawkeye’s or Louise’s previous incarnations on CIF – then we would have a level playing field. I’m not ashamed of my posting record – are they?
“I know of no other website that bans people and deletes entries as freely.”
Most sites are pre-moderated. Unlike CIF Watch, the Guardian are legally liable for the site, so they have to be careful. Try getting anything libelous onto the JP blogs – it will never appear.
September 13, 2009 at 9:49 am
SilverTrees
Who are YOU exiledlondoner? Or is that on your birth certificate? Why don’t YOU post in your real name here and on CiF?
And why don’t you have another chat with “Georgina” (everyone calls her that, so you say) and ask her why AKUS was deleted? I believe that it was because he and the others were “uppity Jews” who could express themselves well and without insult.
Talking of “uppity Jews” I remember one poster, I think her name was Shlomit, who wrote excellently, was pro-Israel, but so far as I can remember was never rude to anyone. I have not heard about her for a long time.
And also MITNAGED, who pops up occasionally at Harry’s Place and posts almost as well there as he/she used to on CiF. Again, disappeared without trace.
Just two examples of intelligent and substantive posters who wanted to debate rather than have slanging matches with those who disagreed with them. They were pro-Israel and probably Jewish. There must be many more.
Whereas those who purvey the hate-filled rubbish they were responding to are probably (and in a couple of cases certainly) still around.
September 13, 2009 at 10:06 am
Mita
Exile: the list you gave me of people who have been around for a long time Peter, Sydk, Petra, Usini, Zamelak, Geoffrey Alderman, Elena, Quirky, MoveAnyMountain, Shermanator, TiredOldDog, Caplan, Shachtman are all quiet debaters. None of them takes fire easily or springs to the point.
However a look at the histories of people like larit and berchmans who are often very insulting to the pro-Israel posters show that they have been around for a long time – they are not quiet debaters and often deliberately stir up trouble. Why are they still not banned (go on, ask Georgina!) == how about the real nasties like Moeran and papalagi (ugh)?
As for AKUS I think s/he contravened the unwritten rule that you should not insist on reposting a post that had already been deleted: the mod is King is the idea — and called down the fire of banishment to the evil darkness for aye and eternitie by this simple means.
You may argue all you like for the honesty of the policy – that is your role here after all but I still am with Hawkeye who would lose his identity without a moment’s doubt if it were revealed (and if indeed he is actually an active poster at the moment – which he might not be: Nadav, 1peter etc are who, ok are whom?)
September 13, 2009 at 10:14 am
JerusalemMite
Exiled – Seriously, there are scores of pro-Israel posters who have been around as long, or almost as long as I have – Peter, Sydk, Petra, Usini, Zamelak, Geoffrey Alderman, Elena, Quirky, MoveAnyMountain, Shermanator, TiredOldDog, Caplan, Shachtman etc – many who keep returning – Nadav, 1Peter, Geary etc – and some new faces – Jubi, Yotam, Contrarian, StarOfDavid etc (that’s just off the top of my head).
May the Celestial Noodley help us. Usini! Thank goodness Israel does not have many friends like Usini. He may be less extreme than some others that I could mention but even then.
Or a fairly damning crit of their unwillingness to open themselves up to the same scrutiny as they like to put others under?
Well. That is The Guardian’s fault with their capricious banning of excellent posters.
One of the failures of The Guardian is that their moderating policy has enabled many posters to return using different monikers and only sometimes are they detected. Poor Dotty and talknic simply are so recognisable.
The fact that their moderation policy has attracted so much anger is because they use it to put their elbow on the scales. Not because they ban this or that poster. AKUS being banned is however, a damming exception. He was an effective debater against the ‘Guardian World View’ for such a long time and yet, banned without reason. No explanation.
But get past it. The site organizers seem set on being incognito. I would like to know who they are to congratulate them of such a great ‘work in progress’. And I take this opportunity to thank them for a site where I feel as comfortable as La Rit, EdwardRice, SpectreOverEurope, Moeran, Papalagi, Berchmans, The defunct Hermine etc etc etc, obviously feel on CI(F). Oh. And PreemptiveResponse who never forgets ‘The Water’. Well. Moeran never forgets ‘The Children’ either.
I think that I prefer PreemptiveResponse and his ‘Water’.
September 13, 2009 at 10:14 am
Mita
Silvertrees: I looked up Shlomit and Mitnaged and both have been banned. Someone posted the formula for how to find out. Type in the URL http://guardian.co.uk/users/ and add the name of the poster. If the result is that the profile is not available you have a ”banned person”.
September 13, 2009 at 10:25 am
sababa
With regard to the debate here about the banning of pro-Israel posters on Cif, I’ve read the site for more than 2 years, and have seen many pro-Israel posters disappear. Of course, it’s hard to know who got banned and who just got tired, but since exiledlondoner mentioned Nadav Katz, I think this is an excellent example. If memory serves, when he was initially active on Seth Freedman’s threads, he got hounded and ridiculed in most aggressive ways, and when he re-appeared, this only got worse.
Then we know that AKUS got banned, while people like LaRit who only contribute poisonous diatribes apparently have no trouble. But the most telling thing is, I think, that EhadXHaam, perhaps the most eloquent pro-Israel poster ever to appear on Cif, was put on pre-moderation, and it seems he has also disappeared. How do I know that he was pre-moderated? I once followed a thread, and read every comment — nothing by EhadXHaam. The next day, I checked back, but started to read only from where I had left off the day before, and I noticed that people referred to a comment by EhadXHaam. I thought how strange, what are they talking about, and I went back to page 1, and sure enough, a long comment by him had magically appeared overnight. And then I also noticed that at least on the Seth Freedman threads, EhadXHaam’s comments often got deleted — and that’s for sure not because he was aggressive; it’s really hard to imagine a more civil poster than him. (Well, maybe it was her, despite the name.)
Then, as is documented here (Cif in the Media, I think), there has also been one instance when a JPost blogger published a perfectly civil and very eloquent pro-Israel comment that Cif deleted, or didn’t allow through pre-moderation.
And then there was of course this wonderful example when Seth Freedman managed to get the JPost scared into deleting a whole blogpost critical of him, just because the mods had allowed a comment where somebody said that if he ever met Freedman, he would kick him somewhere!!! Oh, tender-hearted Sethele, so easy to scare — never mind the rude things he used to come up with when he responded on Cif to posters critical of him…
Finally, exiledlonder, I think usini would sue you for libel if s/he ever found out that you classifed him/her as “pro-Israel”; I also doubt that Elena would like that — though I can recall only few comments by her; and it seems to me that MAM rarely comments on I-P threads; Shermanator puts in one comment per thread and that’s it usually; Shachtman shows up very rarely nowadays, for already quite some time; same is true of Geary; Alderman (who of course is very right-wing) pops in only occasionally, and usually makes just one quick point — well, exiled, in short, there isn’t all that much to your list of supposedly “scores” of veteran pro-Israeli Cif-posters…
September 13, 2009 at 11:41 am
peterthehungarian
ExiledLondoner
You are extremely lucky living in Spain far from Usini. Someone on Cifwatch asked you to identify yourself – don’t do it please! Usini’s vengeance would be horrible!
September 13, 2009 at 12:50 pm
peterthehungarian
Exiledlondoner
“I think that Rickman is definitely in the stable of posters referred to as ‘House Jews’. He is there by choice.”
So you feel it is acceptable to insult, vilify and demonise a man, because he holds a contrary view, and then you blame him for it? The phrase “house Jew” is deeply offensive, and in no way constitues an argument against his position – it is merely an attack on his Jewishness.
———————————————————————————————-
I agree with you, calling someone a “house Jew” is offensive.
I can’t see any problem to offend someone whose behavior is much more offensive than those who offend him. But I would like to give you a short list of my attributes on CIF:
-Due to my Hungarian education I’m a neo-Nazi (Khartoumi)
-Because of the same reason I am a Roma-hater (the same shit only on a different day)
-I’m a cockroach (your beloved laRit and the late Hermine plus a similarly gentle lady Deepblue)
-Simply a racist and a “Jewish supremacist (the late LeonWells – I don’t remember in which reincarnations of him)
-I’m posting as a paid agent of the Israeli government/Mossad /Shabak/ Aipac/Giyus – take your pick (a lot of opponents) (their assertion regarding all pro-Israel posters has been supported by Brian Whittaker – a staff member of the Guardian)
- after all of the above some relative mild almost appeasing attributes of me – halfwit (or some equivalent expression) (BillVanAmsterdam), – a gormless idiot (MartyinEurope)
returning to the more dense stuff – a Zionist merchant of death (don’t remember who was this gaon)
- a child abuser (Moeran) (by the way this is his epic war cry – accusing members and especially doctors of the IDF sexually abusing Palestinian children) – naturally tolerated by the moderators)
- a supporter of child murderers (Arkasha, Orwellwasright)
There are many others I simply can’t remember all of the filth…
Most of the above short but to the point descriptions of my character remained undeleted when I last checked some of them.
So reacting to your accusation that this website offending and vilifying its opponents… If I may offend you: STFU!
September 13, 2009 at 3:18 pm
derek
I am Dan Rickman’s brother in law and consider the description of him as a “useful idiot” is unfair since I don’t think he’s useful.
More seriously rarely have I seen such nonsense starting with an ad hominem article and then with many comments criticising Dan’s view of Judaism as not being frum enough posted on shabbat.
If the ZF man and his cronies could stop being paranoid, realise that there are many views of what is going on in Israel which are valid and put his energies into expounding his views in a calm and reasonable way then everyone might benefit.
Have any of the instigators of the site asked to have a piece published on CIF? Was there a refusal?
September 13, 2009 at 3:48 pm
peterthehungarian
derek
“If the ZF man and his cronies could stop being paranoid, realise that there are many views of what is going on in Israel which are valid and put his energies into expounding his views in a calm and reasonable way then everyone might benefit.”
———————————————————————————————-
As a cronie of the ZF man may I ask you that the Guardian CIF – an obsessively anti-Israeli and an anti-religious (naturally with the exception of the religion of peace) blogsite is the proper forum to discuss the problems of contemporary Judaism?
Myself a terribly sinful atheist and arch enemy of all kind of religious, ideological and political fundamentalism consider your beloved relative’s act simply disgusting. He happily appeased in his posts a rabid and vile anti-Semite (Moeran), a psychopatic Israel hater (Papalagi) and naturally won the applause of the “hate-Israel” crowd of the CIF commentariat.
You say that he’s not useful, I would add that he is neither an idiot. Much worse than that.
September 13, 2009 at 4:44 pm
exiledlondoner
Firstly, my apologies to Usini – I mistook him for another poster (though I can’t quite work out who?).
Mita,
“Exile: the list you gave me of people who have been around for a long time Peter, Sydk, Petra, Usini, Zamelak, Geoffrey Alderman, Elena, Quirky, MoveAnyMountain, Shermanator, TiredOldDog, Caplan, Shachtman are all quiet debaters. None of them takes fire easily or springs to the point.”
I think one or two of them (apart from Usini) might take exception at being called quiet debaters who don’t spring to the point…
…speaking of which,
Peter,
On the unfailingly courteous and mild-mannered Dan Rickman…
“I agree with you, calling someone a “house Jew” is offensive. I can’t see any problem to offend someone whose behavior is much more offensive than those who offend him.”
and….
“I… ….consider your beloved relative’s act simply disgusting. He happily appeased in his posts a rabid and vile anti-Semite (Moeran), a psychopatic Israel hater (Papalagi) and naturally won the applause of the “hate-Israel” crowd of the CIF commentariat.”
How did he ‘appease’ them? And….
“You say that he’s not useful, I would add that he is neither an idiot. Much worse than that.”
and to the less than unfailingly courteous and mild-mannered me….
“So reacting to your accusation that this website offending and vilifying its opponents… If I may offend you: STFU!”
Calm down Peter – I’m sure Mita didn’t mean to challenge your ‘fire’, or your ability to spring to the point (whatever it might be)?
September 13, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Teacup
Dear, dear, dear Yvonne,
Is it really smart to try and give orders to people who have no reason to take them from you? What in the name of any God of your choice is an “anti-semite trope”? Something you don’t like? Something you can’t disprove?
My problem with CiF is that it is always pushing “western liberal democracies” and if I understand correctly one of Israel’s boasts is that it is a democracy in a sea of authoritarian nations. I would almost agree, except that her defenders,such as yourself, do every thing they can to prevent free speech though shouting “anti-semitism!” at anyone they don’t agree with.
The problem with that is simple. You folks have debased the meaning of the word. I just react with a yawn and “there they go again”.
Sad!
September 13, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Teacup
Peter,
I will repeat to you that I take part in threads about my country and her neighbours. However, I feel very strongly that the people of Palestine have been given a very raw deal by the rich and the powerful and I will continue to say so whenever and wherever I please.
If that makes me an anti-semite, tough!
September 13, 2009 at 8:29 pm
Teacup
Hi Derek,
Spot on! It is truly a shame that these folks didn’t debate LWOJ on his thread instead of muttering about him here. I don’t think he (LWOJ) had a say in when his article was put up. The timing was unfortunate, since the Sabbath prevented him from participating more fully.
September 13, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Tosca
Tea cup.
You really have misunderstood the whole point of Tosca, the opera, just as you have failed to grasp the refutation of Dan Rickman’s article, point by point.
Especially pathetic as you claim it to be your favourite opera, so let me help you and explain it in terms even you will understand.
The bad guy in the opera is Scarpia. chief of police in Rome.
Good guys— political agitator, Andreotti who is being hidden by Cavaradossi, an artist in love with Tosca, a singer.
Got it so far? Good.
Scarpia is madly in love with Tosca—- he especially likes women who represent a challenge and who refuse to comply with his lustful demands.
Cavaradossi is captured by Scarpia’s thugs, dragged to his appartments and placed in an adjoining torture chamber.
Tosca is summoned and forced to listen to the cries of her lover. Scarpia agrees to stop the torture if Tosca submits to his demands.
She agrees on the promise that Scarpia will give them both safe passage out of Rome. He writes out an order to that effect, and warns Tosca that Cavaradossi will have to undergo a mock execution and will have to fall and pretend he is dead. As he is writing what is supposedly the reprieve, she spots a knife on the desk and lunges towards him plunging it into his heart, with the marvellous words “here is Tosca’s kiss”.
Of course, Scarpia never intended to keep his part of the bargain, and Cavaradossi was doomed anyway, for the execution was real.
Tosca refused to compromise her honour or integrity, and when she realises that Cavaradossi has been killed, chooses to die her way, rather than be executed.
So you see, Tosca is a person of integrity, who will never compromise her loyalty or allow herself to be bribed or tempted to take the easy way out, or go down the route of betrayal for personal gain.
Now do you get it, or do I have to spell it out?
September 13, 2009 at 9:45 pm
Teacup
“Tosca”,
I suggest you watch the opera again. In the first act, a major motif is Tosca’s rather mindless jealousy – for no reason. Cavaradossi describes her as a jealous woman to Angelotti. When she comes in, she suspects that Cavaradossi has been with a woman. Scarpia makes it very clear that it is her jealousy he is going to use to bring about Cavaradossi’s downfall. Remember the bit where he says “Iago used a handkerchief, I have a fan”? After Scarpia convinces her (without having to try very hard) that Cavaradossi is having an affair with another woman. It is through following her that Scarpia’s agents are able to locate Angelotti’s whereabouts.
I suggest that you watch/listen to Tosca again, preferably with the libretto or subtitles in your primary langauge.
September 13, 2009 at 9:50 pm
Teacup
Sorry,
“After Scarpia convinces her (without having to try very hard) that Cavaradossi is having an affair with another woman.”
Should read
“After Scarpia convinces her (without having to try very hard) that Cavaradossi is having an affair with another woman, she promptly rushes off to confront him.”
That is the whole point, Tosca has a built in bias, he default position is that Cavaradossi must be having an affair. You have a built in bias, that anyone who discusses problems in a Jewish community must be an anti-semite/self-hating Jew. Like Tosca, you are simply wrong.
In ha
September 13, 2009 at 11:29 pm
peterthehungarian
Hi Exiledlondoner
Why should I calm down!? Do you think that the list of my attributes on CIF is bothering me at all? There is a Latin saying about the wrath of the scum is really a praise. I just wanted to show you that your accusations against CifWatch are simply laughable if we compare its record of offending and vilifying to CIF.
“How did he ‘appease’ them?”
In some of his posts (not in the articles itself) he addressed them personally expressing his appreciation.
“On the unfailingly courteous and mild-mannered Dan Rickman…”
Don’t pretend not knowing about the possibility that one can be extremely offensive using very well mannered and courteous style.
September 14, 2009 at 1:08 am
JerusalemMite
Teacup – I will repeat to you that I take part in threads about my country and her neighbours. However, I feel very strongly that the people of Palestine have been given a very raw deal by the rich and the powerful and I will continue to say so whenever and wherever I please.
Indeed. The Arab states are rich and powerful.
September 14, 2009 at 1:08 am
exiledlondoner
Hi Peter,
“Why should I calm down!?”
You shouldn’t if you don’t want to – I was just trying to lighten the atmosphere in the light of Mita’s comments (I’m not sure Petra will be delighted to be dismissed as such either).
Do you think that the list of my attributes on CIF is bothering me at all?
No, and we’ve spoken about this before. Yes, you’ve been subject to some pretty vile abuse, just as I have (and anyone who expresses any strong views has).
“There is a Latin saying about the wrath of the scum is really a praise. I just wanted to show you that your accusations against CifWatch are simply laughable if we compare its record of offending and vilifying to CIF.”
Why are they laughable? Go through the threads – in a couple of weeks I’ve been called an anti-semite, a Holocaust denier and a Jew-baiter – and that’s nothing to the abuse that Jewish people are subjected to, often above the line, or from the site’s owners.
Your point seems to be that you’ve been horribly abused, so you think it’s fair to join in the vile abuse aimed at Dan Rickman, because you find him “offensive”. No doubt many of those who abused you and me found us offensive, but does that justify calling you a cockroach or me a Holocaust denier?
“In some of his posts (not in the articles itself) he addressed them personally expressing his appreciation.”
And what did he address them personally about? Did he express his appreciation for anything anti-semitic or offensive?
You know what I think of Prof. Alderman – yet I’ve posted several times agreeing with him wholeheartedly. While I abhor his views on the ME, he’s actually made some very good points on freedom and liberty on other threads – it’s called playing the ball, not the man.
“Don’t pretend not knowing about the possibility that one can be extremely offensive using very well mannered and courteous style.”
Of course it’s possible – Alderman might be a case in point (until he loses the plot) – but Dan Rickman doesn’t engage in personal abuse – he puts forward a viewpoint and argues his case. I’m at a total loss as to what you find so offensive in what he writes, but if you do, you can challenge his arguements.
Calling someone a “house Jew” or “useful idiot” isn’t going to win any debate – it’s just gratuitous offense for the sake of it.
September 14, 2009 at 1:21 am
JerusalemMite
Exiled – Calling someone a “house Jew” or “useful idiot” isn’t going to win any debate – it’s just gratuitous offense for the sake of it.
I Rickman was posting the exact same article in The Telepraph or the Washington Post, it would not be appropriate.
Posting on the obsessively anti Israel rag The Guardian does give true meaning to the terms “house Jew” and “useful idiot”.
September 14, 2009 at 1:32 am
exiledlondoner
JerusalemMite,
“If Rickman was posting the exact same article in The Telepraph or the Washington Post, it would not be appropriate.”
So you’re calling him a “house Jew” and “useful idiot” because his article is published in the Guardian?
Are you going to start aiming the same abuse at Benny Morris, Petra or Geoffrey Alderman, who also have written for the Guardian? Or maybe you think that only Jews who agree with you should be allowed to write there?
“Posting on the obsessively anti Israel rag The Guardian does give true meaning to the terms “house Jew” and “useful idiot”.”
You think that the Guardian is an “obsessively anti Israel rag”, so that gives you the right to demand that other Jews bow to your opinions and boycott the paper, and if they don’t give in to your demands, you think that this gives you the right to abuse them?
Your argument is fundementally fascistic.
September 14, 2009 at 2:17 am
sababa
Teacup, you should take your own advice and watch Tosca and study the plot and characters again — it says a whole lot about you that you give so much weight to her one flaw, her jealousy… which, in the end, cannot corrupt her love or integrity.
September 14, 2009 at 2:38 am
JerusalemMite
EXILED – Are you going to start aiming the same abuse at Benny Morris, Petra or Geoffrey Alderman, who also have written for the Guardian? Or maybe you think that only Jews who agree with you should be allowed to write there?
I wouldn’t use the term do describe anti Israel writers who have their offerings published on respected publications as blogs or as articles.
But. correct me if I am wrong, Rickman has no articles published anywhere except on CI(F) which is obsessively anti Israel. Our Sethele has his articles published on Press TV too. Hardly ‘accepted’ writers. Their only ‘claim to fame’ is The Guardian/CI(F).
They are ‘house Jews’ and ‘useful idiots’ for the Guardian newspaper.
September 14, 2009 at 2:39 am
peterthehungarian
Teacup
“However, I feel very strongly that the people of Palestine have been given a very raw deal by the rich and the powerful and I will continue to say so whenever and wherever I please.
If that makes me an anti-semite, tough!”
———————————————————————————————-
The above post only proves your absolute and total ignorance about the ME. Do you mean Israel is rich and powerful? In what sense?
Regarding natural resources Israel is one of the poorest countries on Earth. All of its “richness” is coming from the very hard work of its population and its ability to actively participate in scientific and industrial development because of the high number of skilled workforce. Powerful? Do you mean the Jewish lobby in the US? The Jewish controll of the world media? Your rant about the rich and powerful is a perfect example of the well known anti-Semite diatribe about the all powerful and rich Jew. Naturally you are well within your rights to continue your fight against Israel and the Israelis but when you are doing this displaying your bigotry and ignorance don’t be surprised to be considered an anti-Semite.
But I agree with you in saying that the Palestinians got a very raw deal from their rich and powerful political and religious leaders, from their intellectuals and not least from their own fellow Arab and Muslim brethren.
And a further question regarding your enthusiastic support of the Seven Jewish Children. Have you ever tried to change the word Jewish to Arab/Palestinian in it and then reread this opus? If Churchill intends to criticise Israel then what is this funny word in the title beginning with a “J” and ending with “ewish”?
Anyway please come back with your criticism of Israel and the “rich and powerful” when your own country becomes only half as bad like mine.
September 14, 2009 at 2:41 am
sababa
exiledlondoner, are you so obtuse or do you just pretend to be? There is no single country in the world which can even remotely compete with Israel for the number of critical/negative Cif-articles, even the minutest issues that could be problematic in Israel have had an article on Cif — and one wonders why. It’s for sure nothing to do with international political importance: not that long ago, there was one little piece on Cif celebrating Pakistan on its anniversary…. Pretty much the same is true about Jews: there’s Lerman continously complaining about all the many things that are wrong with Diaspora Jews, Freedman is also busy with this and related issues (including all that is wrong with Israeli Jews) at least once or twice a week (for how many years is he at it now?); then you have Silverstein complaining about American Jews, Shabi occasionally pitching in to offer her fringe views about Mizrahi Jews or competing with Freedman to point out what’s wrong with the Jewish state — and that’s just a very partial list.
What does this tell you about a writer (like Rickman in this case) who signs up to join the Cif-chorus — all the while not seeking to publish these views in forums where they would be debated by the audience who’s being criticized???
And, in case you don’t know, the writers you note, i.e. “Benny Morris, Petra or Geoffrey Alderman, who also have written for the Guardian” write in the Guardian/Cif exactly the same stuff as they write in mainstream Israeli/Jewish media, or in other mainstream outlets.
September 14, 2009 at 3:13 am
exiledlondoner
JerusalemMite,
“I wouldn’t use the term do describe anti Israel writers who have their offerings published on respected publications as blogs or as articles.”
The Guardian is one of the most widely-viewed news websites and blogs in the world – not everyone shares your rather hysterical view of it.
“But. correct me if I am wrong, Rickman has no articles published anywhere except on CI(F) which is obsessively anti Israel. Our Sethele has his articles published on Press TV too. Hardly ‘accepted’ writers. Their only ‘claim to fame’ is The Guardian/CI(F).”
No idea where they are published – maybe writing for Danial Pipes would give them respectability?
“They are ‘house Jews’ and ‘useful idiots’ for the Guardian newspaper.”
You really get a kick out of writing that, don’t you? Does it make you feel important and clever?
September 14, 2009 at 3:38 am
exiledlondoner
Sabada,
“exiledlondoner, are you so obtuse or do you just pretend to be?”
I don’t think it’s obtuse to question why a website, ostensibly aimed at attacking racism and hate-speech, indulges in so much racism and hate-speech?
“There is no single country in the world which can even remotely compete with Israel for the number of critical/negative Cif-articles, even the minutest issues that could be problematic in Israel have had an article on Cif — and one wonders why. It’s for sure nothing to do with international political importance”
Or with so many articles in favour of it.
You’re wrong about international importance – the ME is a catalyst for many other problems around the world – but you’re right that this doesn’t explain the level of interest. I would say the following…
1) The problems are very much of the world’s making (particularly Britain’s), and many in the west despair at the inaction of their own Governments.
2) The conflict is seemingly unending – 60+ years and counting.
3) There are unique factors to the conflict, particularly the contempt shown by both sides for international law, over a sustained period, and with the support of western nations.
4) Most other discussions about illegal acts vanish through lack of a defence – only Israel has a massive army of supporters willing to vehemently defend any action. Discussions about Darfur, China or Western Sahara consist of pretty much universal condemnation (though the Chinese are learning).
5) No other conflict has so many articles in the mainstream media providing support or apology for war crimes.
“What does this tell you about a writer (like Rickman in this case) who signs up to join the Cif-chorus — all the while not seeking to publish these views in forums where they would be debated by the audience who’s being criticized???”
The article is about Orthodox Judaism, and included some very interesting points both for and against his article. The Guardian has many Jewish readers. You might be right that the people he criticised aren’t Guardian readers, but then he criticised people he regards as fundementalists.
“And, in case you don’t know, the writers you note, i.e. “Benny Morris, Petra or Geoffrey Alderman, who also have written for the Guardian” write in the Guardian/Cif exactly the same stuff as they write in mainstream Israeli/Jewish media, or in other mainstream outlets.”
Having read all three on Israeli or Zionist websites, I’m not sure if that’s true, but what’s your point? That Dan Rickman is more extreme on CIF, or that he’s less extreme on CIF?
The thing that I can’t get my head around is that posters and owners of CIF Watch can accuse the Guardian of being one-sided, hateful or racist – don’t you actually read what’s been written here?
September 14, 2009 at 3:47 am
JerusalemMite
Exiled – The Guardian is one of the most widely-viewed news websites and blogs in the world – not everyone shares your rather hysterical view of it.
Sorry that you think that my views about the Guardian are hysterical. Many many years ago, I actually used to read it.
I think that its present management is responsible for their deplorable crusade against Israel. I will participate in any endeavor, including this site to try to bring about their dismissal. They have used The Guardian to promote their extreme left wing beliefs which include making common purpose with Islamists of the worst kind. They have hosted articles by Hamas leaders on their website. The will stop at nothing to try to denigrate the United States of America, The UK and Israel in their blind rush to morn the passing of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
They disgust me.
Jews who cannot find anyone else to accept their far out extremist left views and then post on CIF are ‘House Jews’ and ‘Useful Idiots’.
September 14, 2009 at 4:24 am
sababa
exiledlondoner, with your last paragraph you seem to suggest that CifWatch — a small blog run by a few people who expressly say their concern is antisemitism on Cif — should be held to standards like Cif, a Guardian website which is part of a multi-million $ business backed by a big trust fund. I’m not sure if it was you or somebody else, but in one thread, there were demands that if CifWatch didn’t prove its anti-racist credentials by having pieces about “Islamophobia” and anti-Roma bigotry etc.etc, it could be accused of being racist… Gimme a break, really.
And you apparently insist to view terms like “useful idiot” or “House Jew” as hate-speech, even though I don’t think you have provided any good argument in this debate to show why those here who have explained and justified the use of these terms are wrong.
As to your reasons why there is so much interest in the I-P conflict, I think they are all very good and valid — only they don’t work as soon as you try to explain why there is so much more “interest” in I-P issues as opposed to any other areas of conflict, tensions and political trouble elsewhere in the world. This is particularly true when we look at Pakistan, a state established at roughly the same time as Israel, which is hugely destabilizing the whole region, which had a big role in nuclear proliferation and the radicalization of Islam — aside from the fact that even its own people haven’t much benefited from the Pakistani government’s performance.
Another question that remains is how come that a Palestinian who gets his big toe hurt because one Israeli soldier breaches rules of proper conduct gets more articles than hundreds of thousands of women raped and sadistically mutilated in Africa — or, for that matter, all the women and girls in Pakistan and thereabouts having acid thrown in their faces to deform them for the rest of their lives because they wanted to study, or didn’t want to be raped.
You say that these issues are not interesting to debate because nobody defends them — have you ever thought about the question how come that if nobody defends them, this kind of gruesome things continue to happen on a large scale?
Supposedly, all this media focus on Israel’s many evils is meant to help change things — and it’s simply quite revealing what “evils” Cif seems to want to remedy first: for sure the criterion is not the worst human suffering and death, or the most outrageous human rights violations, or the worst oppression in the world. The criterion is clearly who can be accused as the perpetrator… and if it’s Israel and Jews, go for it!
September 14, 2009 at 4:27 am
exiledlondoner
JerusalemMite,
“Sorry that you think that my views about the Guardian are hysterical. Many many years ago, I actually used to read it.”
That may be so, but I still think that your views about the Guardian are hysterical (in the true meaning of the word).
“They disgust me.”
I had gathered as much.
“Jews who cannot find anyone else to accept their far out extremist left views and then post on CIF are ‘House Jews’ and ‘Useful Idiots’.”
I think you mentioned that before. Are you using this as a sort of signature on all your posts?
September 14, 2009 at 4:36 am
peterthehungarian
Exiledlondoner
I really don’t want to make a competition about the level of offensiveness and demonization on Cif and Cifwatch. (this race would be won by CIF with its right hand down anyway). The difference between the two forums, that on CIF – separated only by the thinnest margin from breaking the British criminal law – there are many uncensored (or deleted after a long period of time and only after complaints from other posters) posts openly and explicitly inciting against Israel as a community of Jews. True these incitements, sometimes threats, defamations, demonizations etc. are not directed against individual posters “only” against the entire population or a certain part of it (Moeran’s IDF doctors posts are good examples). This makes them legal but they are understandably perceived by Israeli or pro-Israeli posters as extremely offensive.
“Calling someone a “house Jew” or “useful idiot” isn’t going to win any debate – it’s just gratuitous offense for the sake of it.”
Very true. I never intended to debate with Rickmann about the political aspects of contemporary orthodox Judaism and be sure that the subject is totally irrelevant on the British national level, the only people who should be interested in it are sociologists, political scientists, orthodox rabbis etc.
Publishing this kind of article on CIF is exactly the same like writing about the influence of the average moonlight intensity on the sexual behavior of male bats. As the later could be a very welcomed material and published by the Journal of the British Batbreeders, Rickman’s stuff should be considered for publication on any forum where professionals familiar with the subject could discuss it or debate on it. I don’t belong to this distinguished group, and the CIF commentariat doesn’t seem to me belonging to this group either. To publish this article on CIF is nothing else than a provocation and Rickmann not being an idiot (useful or not) knows this perfectly well.
September 14, 2009 at 4:51 am
exiledlondoner
Sabada,
“exiledlondoner, with your last paragraph you seem to suggest that CifWatch — a small blog run by a few people who expressly say their concern is antisemitism on Cif — should be held to standards like Cif, a Guardian website which is part of a multi-million $ business backed by a big trust fund.”
It obviously isn’t going to be held to the same standard – not least because it’s an anonymous blog – but it is hypocritical. If a little white supremecist blog accuses the NYT of racism, I’d feel much the same.
“I’m not sure if it was you or somebody else, but in one thread, there were demands that if CifWatch didn’t prove its anti-racist credentials by having pieces about “Islamophobia” and anti-Roma bigotry etc.etc, it could be accused of being racist… Gimme a break, really.”
That isn’t the point I’m making – CIF Watch has as much right to be a single issue concern, as CIF bloggers have the right to concern themselves with a single issue (something you seem to think implies something sinister?) – the point I’m making is about pots and kettles, not just about kettles.
“And you apparently insist to view terms like “useful idiot” or “House Jew” as hate-speech, even though I don’t think you have provided any good argument in this debate to show why those here who have explained and justified the use of these terms are wrong.”
You’re right – I clearly haven’t convinced you.
“As to your reasons why there is so much interest in the I-P conflict, I think they are all very good and valid — only they don’t work as soon as you try to explain why there is so much more “interest” in I-P issues as opposed to any other areas of conflict, tensions and political trouble elsewhere in the world.”
That’s exactly what they do – list some of the factors that distinguish the I/P conflict from other conflicts.
“This is particularly true when we look at Pakistan, a state established at roughly the same time as Israel, which is hugely destabilizing the whole region, which had a big role in nuclear proliferation and the radicalization of Islam — aside from the fact that even its own people haven’t much benefited from the Pakistani government’s performance.”
Pakistan is a basket case and a tinder box – a nuclear armed one at that. If I was Israeli, I’d be more concerned about Pakistani instability, than by Iran.
“Another question that remains is how come that a Palestinian who gets his big toe hurt because one Israeli soldier breaches rules of proper conduct gets more articles than hundreds of thousands of women raped and sadistically mutilated in Africa — or, for that matter, all the women and girls in Pakistan and thereabouts having acid thrown in their faces to deform them for the rest of their lives because they wanted to study, or didn’t want to be raped.”
Do you actually care about these issues, or do you see them as a way of deflecting criticism of Israel? What is happening in Darfur is horrendous, but these people are not dying for Israel’s benefit.
“You say that these issues are not interesting to debate because nobody defends them — have you ever thought about the question how come that if nobody defends them, this kind of gruesome things continue to happen on a large scale?”
You assume that if people talked about them more, then they would stop? I would have thought that the I/P conflict fairly comprehensively disproves that theory.
This gets back to my point about having defenders. The coverage of Darfur in the UK is 99% against the Sudanese Government – The coverage of the occupied territories in the UK is no more than 50/50 for or against Israel.
A free press involves a range of views – in the UK from Melanie Phillips to Robert Fisk (guess who has the wider readership?). Do you think that the Daily Mail is unbiased, or the Jerusalem Post?
“Supposedly, all this media focus on Israel’s many evils is meant to help change things — and it’s simply quite revealing what “evils” Cif seems to want to remedy first: for sure the criterion is not the worst human suffering and death, or the most outrageous human rights violations, or the worst oppression in the world.”
The ‘evils’ have a much longer history – God forbid, but if Darfur is still the same in 40 years (or 4 years), I’d want to know why the world hasn’t physically stepped in.
“The criterion is clearly who can be accused as the perpetrator… and if it’s Israel and Jews, go for it!”
Carefully tailored Zionist faux paranoia – victim syndrome (something that Zionists and Islamicists seem to excel at).
September 14, 2009 at 4:56 am
exiledlondoner
Hi Peter,
“I really don’t want to make a competition about the level of offensiveness and demonization on Cif and Cifwatch. (this race would be won by CIF with its right hand down anyway).”
Are you sure you don’t? Sounds like the opening gambit of just that….
Anyway, I’ve got work to do. Dan Rickaman’s thread is no more, and I’m not going to defend Brian Whittaker’s posts, as I don’t think editors should post on threads (other than on technical or CIF issues).
No doubt see you later.
September 14, 2009 at 5:20 am
Mita
Exile: What is happening in Darfur is horrendous, but these people are not dying for Israel’s benefit.
———–
For Israel’s benefit: who dies for Israel’s benefit? There is proof enough in the literature and in the columns of comment in CIF that nobody’s death benefits Israel and that Israel does not trade in deaths, but rather attempts to prevent them, despite the nonsense about war crimes that posters such as Moeran jabber on and on about. That you, a commenter who considers himself to be fair and to have a conscience should use such a phrase tells us the attempt to smear Israel’s name is a success and that the torrent of anti-Israel articles is having its desired effect.
Let me give you another example of the success of the drip drip drip technique of negative articles. Israel has been smeared as an Apartheid state and despite the protests and the examples and the statistics non-Israelis believed this. It took a self-pitying smearing article by an Arab Israeli attempting to exonerate a spy to make the point of how much more democratic Israel is than the US or the UK when he revealed in his innocence that an Arab (those discriminated against) was free to join the same gym as the Israeli Chief of Staff (the allegedly discriminating party).
And why is there no defense against articles about Darfur? Because they are true.
Why is there so much defense against articles about Israel?
Because they are by and large slanted and exaggerated.
September 14, 2009 at 5:29 am
Teacup
Peter and Jerusalemmite,
Israel has strong backing from rich and powerful countries. Under Bush and Blair it had total and mindless support from those governments. Which ME governments are richer and more powerful than the US?
Again if saying this means I am an antisemite, so be it. This is getting boring, so the next time you use these silly over-used epithets my answer will be a huge yawn.
September 14, 2009 at 5:41 am
Teacup
Sababa,
Actually I did watch act 1 again, focusing on the subtitles rather than the action.
Consider this – if, when Scarpia claims he found the fan on the platform of the scaffolding, Tosca had ignored or laughed him off and gone about her business, learning the “nuova canatata”, would the rest of the plot have taken place? Scarpia would not have known where to find Angelotti. If Angelotti had escaped, obviously neither he nor Cavaradossi would have died. Toca would not have had to deal with Scarpia, so she wouldn’t have had to kill him or herself.
Pretty boring ending, that, hardly worth Puccini’s time, but yes, that shows it was her jealousy that was destructive.
There is an interview with Hildegarde Behrens where she says herself that it was Tosca’s “gelosia” that is the undoing of the three principals.
I have never read the Sardou play on which the opera is based. Of course, I would have to read it in translation.
September 14, 2009 at 5:44 am
Mita
Teacup: Under Bush and Blair it had total and mindless support from those governments
——————–
Total and mindless? This doesn’t sound very discriminating on your part to me. When it comes bashing Israel your participation is indeed total and mindless.
September 14, 2009 at 5:53 am
Teacup
Dearly beloved Louise,
I have dedicated a post to you on the Cyprus thread, linked below.