Oh dear. It looks as though the wind has changed direction. Seth Freedman is at it again at “the other place.”
Look at the opening paragraph:
“Gone are the days when history was written solely by the victors. In today’s democratised climate of instantly disseminated words and images, those on either side of a battlefield have the potential to feed facts and figures to media outlets around the world, or to pass on video footage and photographs that their opponents might prefer never saw the light of day.”
What’s this? “democratised climate???” On ‘Comment is Free’??? And “facts and figures”withal! I particularly like the bit above about video footage and photographs that their opponents might prefer never saw the light of day. (Freedman has obviously forgotten “Green Helmet’s” cynically manipulative play acting and lies about the injured of Qana in the last Lebanon war and the deliberately doctored camera footage on Reuters at that time. No, this naïf actually believes that the camera never ever lies!)
And then he refers to a new document by B’Tselem and yes, we are again playing the numbers game about the dead in the Gaza war. Of course Freedman clings to B’Tselem like a drowning man to a life raft – this is ‘Comment is Free ‘after all – and says that B’Tselem is completely open and has nothing to hide, unlike the IDF. And he gets at least one thing right – people will probably criticise the report (and rightly so because B’Tselem is hardly neutral is it?).
Our Freedman, however, is not fond of any sort of criticism and so, true to form, he rubbishes the rejoinders to B’Tselem’s report:
“….In the political cauldron of the Israel-Palestine conflict, the question of “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” has been turned into a cottage industry, with layer upon layer of self-styled watchmen declaring themselves – and only themselves – to be in possession of the pure, unadulterated truth….”
Oh, really? Doesn’t that apply equally to his articles on ‘Comment is Free’ and to this one about B’Tselem? For those readers who don’t have Latin, see below. For myself, I think Freedman lifted this from some “quotable quotes” website or other in an attempt to lend his work more gravitas.
And the column goes downhill from there. We then get Freedman quoting from another of his own Comment is Free articles to shore up equally tendentious arguments in a circular fashion (ie Freedman says this is true because Freedman said so before). However, he does try to redeem himself in the current one by informing us that B’Tselem says that Hamas’ shelling of Israeli civilians is a war crime.
So what are we to make of all this? What are we to make of the reworking of the same old “Israel is bad” theme from another of ‘Comment is Free’s ‘house Jews? It is well known that if one goes out as a reporter expecting to find wrongdoing one will find it, whereas to go out with an open mind brings one closer to what Freedman refers to as the unadulterated truth.
We know that B’Tselem has biases but Freedman gives us no indication that he knows this as well, or perhaps he is selective in the “truth” he himself writes about. He is merely reverting to type – he criticises the NGOs who he knows will criticise B’Tselem’s report in almost the same way as comments critical of his views are swiftly deleted from his articles on ‘Comment is Free’. He quotes Latin at us about the “cottage industry” of those who are self-styled keepers of the pure unadulterated truth, and yet he is apparently oblivious of the fact that he writes regularly for a blog which silences anyone who disagrees with his or its “truth” about his adopted country.
Oh yes, the Latin: quis custodiet ipsos custodes means “Who guards the guardians?” In this instance, in the sense that Freedman means it and particularly in the case of Comment is Free, he might have more honestly written (as one self-styled guardian of “the truth”) quis custodiet ipsum Custodem - “Who guards The Guardian?”






61 comments
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September 9, 2009 at 10:24 pm
The Alchemist
This article actually made Freedman sound interesting…not in a good way of course but Medusa allows for deeper contemplation of a really really boring writer.
September 9, 2009 at 10:54 pm
AKUS
Hmm .. the idea that there is a “media war raging” is pretty far fetched. As far as I can tell from the Israeli media the report landed with a dull thud. It may rage in certain areas of the blogsphere, but seems to have by-passed the real world.
Netanyahu’s disappearance for 15 hours, Madonna, Julio Iglesias, Leonard Cohen, food for Holocaust survivors to celebrate Rosh Hashanah … raging in Israel. B’Tselem – who cares? It got a one column mention in the Washington Post – that’s about it as far as I can see for raging
The only political raging I’ve noticed going on is Elliott Abrams ripping Jimmy Carter’s “travelogue of the self-appointed group of Elders” (pretentious alte kakkers, IMO), strangely reminiscent of CIF’s “reporting” on the I/P conflict, with no actual facts and figures, just biased opinions. Off topic, admittedly, but well worth a read if you want to “rage” and worth a link here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/07/AR2009090702067.html
Jimmy Carter, speaking on behalf of a self-appointed group of “Elders,” described a rapacious Israel facing long-suffering, blameless Palestinians, who are contemplating a “nonviolent civil rights struggle” in which “their examples would be Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr. and Nelson Mandela.” ….. As with most of Carter’s recent statements about Israel and the Palestinians, instead of facts we get vignettes from recent Carter travels….
Instead of appealing for support for the serious and practical work of institution-building that the Palestinian Authority has begun, Carter fantasizes about a “nonviolent civil rights struggle” that bears no relationship to the terrorist violence that has plagued Palestinian society, and killed Israelis, for decades.
If I may borrow a phrase from Abrams:
“Instead of appealing for support for the serious and practical work of institution-building that the Palestinian Authority has begun” B’Tselem roots around to find atrocities in a war that ended 8 months ago that Hamas brought down on its citizens. A war the Guardian is determined to continue keeping alive on its web-site for as long as it can, long after Sri Lanka, Swat Valley, Darfur, Congo, Zimbabwe, Chechnya etc are forgotten.
Thanks for the Latin lesson, Medusa – very apt!!
How does one say “Follow the money” in Latin? Something like “Cui bono?”
September 9, 2009 at 11:02 pm
Iloathetheguardian
Yes he is Back,after all he does get paid for writing these idiotic articles,BTW does he get paid in shekels or pounds,or in pieces of silver.
The usual brown-noses Berchmans and MartinInEurope,think that he has written another great article.But then they say this about every article that he writes.
September 9, 2009 at 11:06 pm
Iloathetheguardian
You told us about the nasties,the ones that you don’t like,how about a list of the ones that you do like,one that is very good is JOHNQPUBLIC.
September 9, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Iloathetheguardian
Here is one of The Berchmans gems,”"”No to allegations without proof,that critics of Israel are tying to link ‘Zionism with Satanism’ on CIf””…….Very subtle Burchmanism.
September 10, 2009 at 2:30 am
Mita
Who reaped the recommendations showing that the passive members of CIF are all jaundice and no judgement?
It was the weakling Bass with his piddling assumptions that its all about Israel holding onto land, when what we are discussing is what happened when Israel gave up land.
September 10, 2009 at 3:31 am
Fairplay
Who guards – ie. keeps in check – the Guardian? CiF Watch, of course.
We’re the guardians of fair play.
September 10, 2009 at 4:53 am
Medusa
The Alchemist – I don’t know whether to thank you or apologise for making Freedman look interesting.. (thinks…) Thank you!
AKUS, cui bono means “who benefits?” What you write about there not being a “media war” is interesting but not surprising. For once though I shan’t hurry to blame Freedman – the headlines are always written by someone else.
September 10, 2009 at 5:07 am
Demeter
A good article Medusa. It never ceases to amaze me how Freedman manages to make himself look idiotic without apparent effort and he should wonder why CiF allows him to do so. Perhaps they are setting him up.
The Latin quotation was an absolute gift to you – how come he didn’t spot it? Didn’t he get a classical education or did he miss classes because they wouldn’t let him bring his own gun to the lessons?
Incidentally, does anyone know how his book sales are doing? I keep looking for them in charity shops and on the remaindered shelves in bookshops but can’t see them. Perhaps he gets his relatives and friends, (you know, the ones that he wheels out to agree with him when posts are slow) to buy scores of copies. He should auction them for charity, but the people who would depend on the money shouldn’t get their hopes up.
Editors, Iloathetheguardian has a good point. We should acknowledge the brave posters to CiF who write cogently and sensibly whether you agree with them or not (when their posts stay up, that is). Perhaps you could ask your readership to send you copies of their favourites, with a link to the article, and have a sort of Roll of Honour?
September 10, 2009 at 5:26 am
sababa
I guess my take differs a bit from AKUS’s view here — true, the Israeli media may not pay that much attention to the Btselem report, but isn’t it quite telling that SF and Cif think that there is a “media war” about the Gaza casualty figures? And clearly, as SF tries to paint it, in this “media war” the truth — or shall we say: veritas, to try to match the level here — is on the side of those who scoff at anything Israel or pro-Israeli groups say, no need even to look at what they’re saying!
One could also wonder, if it’s a “media war”, do any standards of conduct apply?
September 10, 2009 at 6:39 am
SilverTrees
sababa, SF and CiF want there to be a media war and therefore, in time honoured CiF fashion they think that if they say that there is one then it will be true.
And as for standards of conduct in any media war, forget it. Medusa refers to “Green Helmet’s” and others’ shameless manipulation of the media in the last Lebanese war to feed a willing audience, and you can bet your boots that the same went on in Gaza.
We also have the al-Durah lie which was left to fester before it was proven to be one, see
http://seconddraft.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=62:the-al-durah-affair&catid=54:al-durah&Itemid=72 among others.
You have only to look at what passes for ethical journalism in al-Grauniad and elsewhere, and the complete inability/unwillingness of the anti-Israel stable of writers for CiF to separate out fact from opinion (and their cynical misrepresentation of the latter as the former to a mindless audience of Israel-haters there) to have your answer.
I once read on CiF that since it’s a blog ethical standards in journalism do not apply! I’ll bet that the poster had a straight face when he/she wrote it too.
September 10, 2009 at 7:13 am
AKUS
Medusa – I thought that the author of these articles wrote the header, and the Guardians editors (or sub-editors) wrote the frequently irresponsible and inaccurate sub-headers. But the header is lifted from Freedman’s use of the term “media war” in the body of the article
I just quickly scanned the on-line Israeli press – not a mention of B’Tselem. So much happens in israel in a day that something that occurred 8 months ago is not exactly news there. Moreover, most Israelis have served in the military and are aware that … in a war there are casualties.
Apropos of nothing to do with the B’tselem report, Freedman also took a little crack at NGOMonitor:
It missed mine!
Well, that view of HRW sounds about right to me ..Saudis, money, a Nazi connection, all part of the mix at HRW … I wonder what Ha’aretz thinks of the NGO Monitor report?
Well … according to Ha’aretz this report so easily dismissed on the Guardian’s web site looks like it was pretty thorough!!
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1113728.html
September 10, 2009 at 7:15 am
Ariadne
This is still there:
MiltonKeenest
09 Sep 09, 6:13pm (about 17 hours ago)
BrianWhit
There’s a big different between collecting donations from individual Saudis and from the Saudi government. The commenter’s post was intended to smear HRW by claiming it’s heavily dependent on Saudi government funds – which is obviously rubbish.
[*]
Not too much difference. The Saudi Royal family controls the wealth of almost every single citizen of Saudi Arabia.
Are you suggesting that HRW is not heavily biased against Israel?? Much as your ‘newspaper’ is?
As to Btsalem. I would keep an open mind if I were you. Rather difficult for some people but I believe that Israel is preparing a document that fills the BTsalem report with numerous holes.
September 10, 2009 at 9:58 am
Jubilation
Obsession is not just a perfume: it is also talknic spamming as fourbytwo — which in Cockney rhyming slang describes some of us.
September 10, 2009 at 10:48 am
SilverTrees
Ariadne, I am amazed that this post is still on line. What can this mean?
That CiF is on a charm offensive (with the emphasis on the “offensive”)?
or
Freedman has been tranquillised and shoved in a cupboard so that he can’t jump up and down and threaten to scream until he turns blue if the posts which disagree with his article are removed?
or both?
Curiouser and curiouser.
September 10, 2009 at 11:20 am
mita
I am missing dear Seth’s usual surly responses to questions directed at him. I think his cases are getting weaker and weaker and his justifications less and less credible so he isn’t so keen to stand up and debate the issues with us in public as I remember him doing.
Of course he could post his comments here instead of on C.I.F I suppose: There would be less chance of responses to him being deleted here and we would not have to watch our words so carefully, knowing that a banning would be waiting round the corner for our fatal slip.
September 10, 2009 at 11:25 am
JerusalemMite
Seth ducked out of debating ‘above the line’ with Petra a year ago.
You could hardly expect him to leave the protected environment of CI(F) to defend his despicable behavior.
September 10, 2009 at 3:41 pm
cityca
My entire post inc. my name was wiped off this thread.
From The illusion of checkpoint cooperation by Rachel Shabi
cityca
10 Sep 09, 5:55pm (1 minute ago)
toryzionist You are wasting your time. papalagi clearly is unable to accept what you say or if he does, he is too mean spirited to apologise.
Then we have xxyx who obviously cannot accept what you say because your sources are Israeli or Jewish or both.
I am well aware of the Magen David Adom programme and your experiences come as no surprise. Well done for taking part.
Some of these posters such as papalagi and xxyx have trouble believing because they are so often lied to by their own. At the top of this page, there’s bass claiming CiF is a meeting place for Israeli embassy staff. He doesn’t realise just how supportive most members of the worldwide jewish community are towards Israel – we don’t have to work at the embassy to support it.
Which is why when we read the nonsense often posted here by the Guardian’s useful idiots like Shabi, we respond accordingly.
– - – - – - – — – - – - – - – - – - – - -
Another example of Guardian ‘moderation’. Anyone have an idea as to why this was pulled?
September 10, 2009 at 4:03 pm
cityca
From media war rages over Gaza conflict
by Seth Freedman
Also deleted
cityca
10 Sep 09, 11:25am (1 minute ago)
fourbytwo or should I call you talknic? I thought you were banned. To ban AKUS yet leave a troll like you to post speaks volumes for CiF ‘moderation’.
- – — – - – - – - – - – - – -
Well doesn’t it?
September 10, 2009 at 4:19 pm
mita
. Anyone have an idea as to why this was pulled?
——————————————————-
Of course, you were praising Jews and Israel in the first and had the temerity to criticise the mods and their methods in the second.
Those are two sure ways to get deleted.
September 10, 2009 at 4:45 pm
peterthehungarian
cityca
I suggest you to read these two UNDELETED comments on the same thread and you will imediately understand why yours have been ausradiert:
The first is a nicely written Holocaust denial:
———————————————————————————————–
omygodreally
10 Sep 09, 9:30pm (4 minutes ago)
what an intelligent unbiased article illuminating once again the need for the state of israel as a bulwark against freudian analysis victims with their false memories.
———————————————————————————————–
The second is the lambasting of Shabi by the Berchmans awarded tustworthy, in according to his/her learned opinion the author is a supporter of the fascist Israel
———————————————————————————————–
TheTrustworthy
10 Sep 09, 9:32pm (2 minutes ago)
@Rachel
“According to one Haaretz commentator, relations between the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority are at an all-time high”
This is where the world media and leaders are torturing ill equipped Palestinians.
You are giving the right to catch the men from the Palestinian authority by calling them just authority and not part of government.
Understand the double standard here of which you are probably oblivious, the world media and leaders have been keeping double standard by calling democratically elected government of Palestinians as just an authority and the freedom fighters as terrorist or hardliners.
When you write all those lie, You become one of the oppressors, You become one of the supporters of Fascist Israel instead of being rational and impartial.
———————————————————————————————–
I hope my examples of the moderators’ agenda will help your understanding.
September 10, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Eliyahu
Does anybody feel as I do that the very name “Comment Is Free” has a certain Orwellian ring to it? You know, Free, as in Arbeit Macht Frei.
September 10, 2009 at 9:31 pm
sababa
cityca, Shabi’s piece was a real stunner: it revealed the Guardinista mind that regards it as a reason for deep disappointment that there is slowly a semblance of law and order emerging on the Westbank — oh, what a pity! And how horrific that the Palestinian security forces are trained by — gasp — those dastard imperialists, the Americans!! Every upright Guardinista can only mourn the loss of revolutionary energy and rally to the call: Let the clans and their militias roam freely and do what they are won’t to do—it’s soooo romantic and revolutionary to kill Israelis!Oh!
(Somehow, this attitude reminds me of the HRW staffer and “military analysts” Garlasco who is an avid collector of Nazi stuff and said on one message board where those people congegrate something like: Oh, this SS leather jacket is just sooooo cool!!!)
Shabi’s piece was a shocking piece of crap, but obviously, that doesn’t mean that from Cif’s point of view, you are entitled to talk about “the Guardian’s useful idiots like Shabi” …
September 11, 2009 at 1:56 am
hakunamatata
sababa
Every reasonable observer and real supporter of the Palestinian cause should be singing hymns to this development. The first time in history, the Palestinian leadership and people show signs of responsibility, ability to organize their own society, keeping law and order, helping their own people, convincing the international and Israeli public opinion about their seriousness. The result was immediate, the decrease in the number of checkpoints causing significant change for the better in their life.
Not so on CIF! They are ready to fight the war from their offices in London to the last drop of Palestinian and/or Israeli blood. They have commissars and chaplains like Shabi, Freedman, Lerman etc. and a full company of real armchair Rambos like Moeran, Berchmans, etc. The involved peoples on the field are only cannon-fodder in their noble war for their own ego and ideology.
Achieving peace or progressing towards a peaceful solution would endanger their reason d’etre (not to speak about their bread). For these humanists the sufferings and the spilled blood of Palestinians and Israelis are very cheap and a good investment anyway.
September 11, 2009 at 3:26 am
JerusalemMite
Sababa – Shabi’s piece was a shocking piece of crap, but obviously, that doesn’t mean that from Cif’s point of view, you are entitled to talk about “the Guardian’s useful idiots like Shabi” …
Indeed not.
Somebody on the thread liked her hair though.
September 11, 2009 at 3:34 am
JerusalemMite
Funnily enough, I noticed this post because I was startled that it had not been deleted. Well. I went back later and sure enough, it had been deleted.
Now can anyone see how this post is offensive, untrue or whatever to justify the Guardian/CI(F) deletions.
The commenter is still posting however. That is, up until now.
MiltonKeenest
11 Sep 09, 4:43am (21 minutes ago)
creel
Hamas, whose congregation is unrepresentative of the whole, at least recognizes this risk. While sadly for her own defense she is forced often onto the offensive, at the intellectual level she is careful to remember that what unites all Palestinian is a common foe.
Very true. Israel is always mentioned in any serious speech by Muslim ‘dignitaries’ from Morocco to Indonesia.
Strange that. I mean that so many Muslims are dying in Darfur, Muslim slaughtering Muslim. Yet no peep from these same people upholding Muslim virtue. The BBC has imparted to the outside world that upwards from 350,000 peope, Muslims actually, have lost their lives due to inter Muslim strife in Darfur yet, Darfur hardly get a single mention in the Muslim world wide press.
Israel on the other hand, a country where the ethnic cleansing has failed terribly and the Muslim population there shares equality with the barbaric Jewish population, is mentioned in every speech that Achmedinejad makes even though Iran has no common border with the ‘hated Zionist entity’. Arab citizens of Israel are represented in the Israeli Knesset and these same Arab members feel free to citicise the ‘evil Zionist entity’ at every opportunity that they have. (Compare that to the single Jewish member of the Majlis in Iran who seems to be in competition with his Arab Israeli counterparts in criticising the ‘evil Zionist entity’.
So. It is not at all difficult for a non Muslim to understand that all Muslims are united in the condemnation of Israel.
Is it?
September 11, 2009 at 4:47 am
sababa
Wasn’t the first comment on the Shabi thread by JOHNQPUBLIC very innocent, something like – oh, when there is I-P cooperation and nobody gets killed, the European left is distraught… I think it also had lots of recommendations, but now it’s gone! This is really a mystery!
hakunamatata (ugh, that’s a difficult one!): agree with the notion that actually some people have so to speak a professional interest in the conflict going on; one commenter (I think Shachtman) also made this point on the thread, and got lots of recommendations for it — eh, well, maybe the comment is already gone then…
September 11, 2009 at 5:49 am
hakunamatata
sababa
“hakunamatata (ugh, that’s a difficult one!):
sababa (perfect and hakuna matata (no problem) ring the same bells one in the Israeli Arabic-Hebrew slang the other in swahili. Both of them inspire others to do nothing about existing or potential problems.
September 11, 2009 at 7:06 am
sababa
Oy veh! hakuna matata … I was inspired to look up the word, wow, it’s even a song:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakuna_matata
But there’s also a sababa entry with some rather good examples:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sababa
September 11, 2009 at 7:18 am
Jubilation
Still tracking the all too evident history of the Talknic dynasty: we now have DoTell.
That is someone who learns nothing and forgets nothing.
September 11, 2009 at 7:34 am
Demeter
JerusalemMite, I am not surprised that MiltonKeenest’s post got deleted, although I am sorry that it did because it was a good post. Authoritarians like the CiF lot and their mods don’t “do” anything which might possibly contain even a single double-entendre (as they perceive it) – it causes them real psychological discomfort because they are black-and-white thinkers and get uncomfortable with shades of grey or with anyone who doesn’t think like them – and MiltonKeenest’s post worked at quite a few different levels.
Plus the post told readers an uncomfortable truth, and they would prefer to remain in denial about Muslim on Muslim violence because it diverts CiF from its mission of vilifying Israel/Jews alone.
Any “offence” is in the eye of the beholder, JerusalemMite. It’s a pity that they don’t get equally offended by some of the hate-filled rubbish they allow to remain on their pages.
I really do believe that Israel/Jew hatred is like a drug for these people – and that this accounts for their pouring acid on any tiny plant of hope for peace.
September 11, 2009 at 9:45 am
mita
A must watch video: Benny Morris and Jonathan Freedland in today’s Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2009/sep/08/benny-morris-jonathan-freedland
September 11, 2009 at 10:17 am
JerusalemMite
Mita – A must watch video: Benny Morris and Jonathan Freedland in today’s Guardian
Yes. Nice to see that he is eventually maturing and seeing the world as it is and not how he might have wanted it to be.
There is still hope for The CI(F) ‘House Jews’ yet.
September 11, 2009 at 10:19 am
JerusalemMite
Jubilation – Still tracking the all too evident history of the Talknic dynasty: we now have DoTell. That is someone who learns nothing and forgets nothing.
And tells nothing too.
September 11, 2009 at 10:35 am
Demeter
Mita and JerusalemMite – I watched the video but don’t know what to think of Morris or Freedland. Either Freedland didn’t ask the right questions or stuck too slavishly to the al-Grauniad party line that criticism of Palestinian behaviour per Morris would frighten the leftist horses because it could be perceived as being racist, or Morris was underwhelming. I can’t decide which.
I am glad that Morris got an article and the video on CiF, although people are not being allowed to comment on the latter. That may be a very good thing given the sort of comments it might be expected to attract.
September 11, 2009 at 10:59 am
Demeter
Mita and JerusalemMite – I watched the video but don’t know what to think of Morris or Freedland. Either Freedland didn’t ask the right questions or stuck too slavishly to the al-Grauniad party line that criticism of Palestinian behaviour per Morris would frighten the leftist horses because it could be perceived as being racist, or Morris was underwhelming. I can’t decide which.
I am glad that Morris got an article and the video on CiF, although I am sorry that people are not being allowed to comment on the latter.
September 11, 2009 at 11:28 am
peterthehungarian
Who guards the Guardian? Somewhere in Germany nobody guards a psychiatric ward or the inmates are allowed to post on CIF.
On the Obama thread a German poster Papalagi wrote to Benny Morris:
“You don’t seem to know very much about the history of Palestine.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/11/middle-east-obama-peace?commentid=0543075d-f404-4fa4-bcc8-8e01fb820bbb
No this is not a joke.
September 11, 2009 at 12:07 pm
cityca
Yet another post removed – this one I really don’t understand.
BENNY MORRIS – OBAMAS IMPOSSIBLE AMBITION
cityca
11 Sep 09, 9:37am (1 minute ago)
Fascinating and balanced article. So, for the Palestinian side it is a a ‘zero sum game’ – all or nothing. Were they able to, the Arabs would it seems, ‘push the Zionists into the sea’, as they threatened to in 1948.
Perhaps Israel should stop fiddling at the edges and actually push back the Arab hordes back into the desert. It won’t happen of course, but its not hard to see why the ultra right wing in Israeli politics feels that way.
Having said that, the initiative written about here last week on CiF (sorry, can’t remember the author’s name) to just get on with building in the West Bank, to create positive facts on the ground, is a ray of sunshine in Benny Morris’s gloom.
Time will tell, but if we could overcome decades of hatred and suspicion between Israelis and Palestinian Arabs, there might be a positive future. Morris looks at it with the eye of an historian and who can argue, but the world is changing all the time. Lets hope that positive individuals on both sides, sick of the killing and wanting to create a future, can overcome previous history.
September 11, 2009 at 12:11 pm
cityca
And yet another one.
cityca
11 Sep 09, 10:14am (1 minute ago)
Nehruvian
This is, at best, a disingenuous argument. You attempt to portray the Palestinian leadership as powerful enough to bleed Israel grievously. Yet the truth is that there is no symmetry of power. Israel has repeatedly inflicted extraordinary violence on all Palestinians — without attracting any meaningful sanction from the so-called international community.
The second Intifada, based as it was on a campaign of suicide bombing did indeed ‘bleed Israel grievously’, just as the ongoing suicide bombings in Iraq are doing the same there. The entire country was on lockdown for years and as a direct result, the separation barrier was built. In its entire 61 year history, not a single week has gone by without an attack by Arabs on Israelis.
There is also the subject of the rights of the refugees and Israel’s Arab minorities. A pluralistic nationalism, such as India’s or America’s, would have no problem in accommodating minorities. But an exclusivist state founded explicitly on communitarian grounds cannot do that.
Jews and Arabs, (Muslim and Christian) live in Israel and with the same rights. Israel is a Jewish state, just as every Arab state is a Muslim state, and not the ‘pluralistic nation’ you write about. How is it ok for Arab states to be Muslim, but Israel cannot be Jewish?
The expulsion of non-Jews (as Avigdor Lieberman would like to do), the extension of Jewish colonies into Palestinian lands, the second-class status of non-Jews: all of this is evidence (if any were required) of a state intent on attaining racial/ethnic/religious purity.
Yeah, right. And what are your comments on the open, pluralistic society that is Saudi Arabia? What, no comment?
Ironically, the sentiment for Israel’s establishment was a product of a similar project in Europe.
Ah, the mark of a true racist. As Seth Freedman might say, your card is marked.
September 11, 2009 at 12:37 pm
sababa
peter, this papalagi is really a riot! Apparently he doesn’t even realize what a joke he is making of himself — maybe your theory is right…
cityca, amazing – I think you can demand from the mods an explanation, would be really interesting to hear what they respond.
I read the Morris piece, and the first few comments; what struck me is that he quotes the Arab delegation to a commission in 1919 (I think) as saying that it’s either or: either the Arabs will drive the Jews to the sea, or the Jews will drive the Arabs “back to the desert” — interesting, isn’t it? I was expecting howls of protest, I mean, after all, that doesn’t sound like the ancient indigenous natives of Palestine speaking, does it? Back to the deserts of Arabia, from where they came, hmh — you’d probably get deleted for saying that.
September 11, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Jacob-Arnon
The Guardian has entered the fray about Garlasco the HRW Nazi collector on the side, you guessed it of the Nazi collector.
“Human Rights Watch investigator accused of collecting Nazi memorabilia”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/10/human-rights-watch-israel-nazi
Their article is another example of their anti-Israel bias.
September 11, 2009 at 12:56 pm
JerusalemMite
Jacob – I looked at the article. No comments allowed.
Yet.
Interesting the power that other blog sites have ‘assumed’ by publishing these and other things.
It’s a new world out there.
September 11, 2009 at 4:23 pm
SilverTrees
PetertheHungarian, you have to remember that papalagi believes devoutly that Ilan Pappe is a reputable historian:
Efraim Karsh, one of the most vocal critics of the New Historians, accuses Pappé of factual misrepresentations:
He writes that readers are told of events that never happened, such as the non-existent May 1948 Tantura “massacre” or the expulsion of Arabs within twelve days of the partition resolution. They learn of political decisions that were never made, such as the Anglo-French 1912 plan for the occupation of Palestine or the contriving of ‘a master plan to rid the future Jewish state of as many Palestinians as possible. And they are misinformed about military and political developments, such as the rationale for the Balfour declaration.
Karsh also singles Pappé out as “the odd man out among the so-called New Historians”, for relying on secondary sources and admitting his own bias in his introduction.
Karsh critically quotes Pappe as saying
“My bias is apparent despite the desire of my peers that I stick to facts and the “truth” when reconstructing past realities. I view any such construction as vain and presumptuous. This book is written by one who admits compassion for the colonized not the colonizer; who sympathizes with the occupied not the occupiers.”
And Seth Franzman writes that Pappé “ignores context and draws far broader conclusions than evidence allows by cherry-picking some reports and ignoring other sources entirely…”
papalagi is hardly a critical thinker or debater – rather he’s a one trick pony. Believing as devoutly as he does in the sainthood of Ilan Pappe it’s hardly surprising that he wouldn’t know a reputable historical account if he fell over one.
September 11, 2009 at 4:34 pm
mita
JerusalemMite
Jacob – I looked at the article. No comments allowed.
Yet
——————————————-
That is no bar to discussing it here.
Interesting that the article closes with reference to websites with embedded links. It used to be that newspapers were deferred to and blogspots were rather lowly. There has been a bit of a switch there.
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“”Several of the websites that have been running with the Garlasco story, Human Rights Watch says, are the same websites that have been attacking its reporting of the Gaza war. They include Elder of Ziyon, NGO Monitor and Mere Rhetoric”"
September 11, 2009 at 4:39 pm
1peter
SilverTrees,
I concur with your comments, the most important one being that this fellow is hardsly a critical thinker or debater but a cut and paste machine who rarely if ever bothers to read the articles in the first place.
Unfortunately his lack of intellect doesn’t keep him from displaying it with regularity.
Its a constant barrage of whining about events and not having the sechel to offer up a way of impacting events.
There appears to be a cultural divide, this huge gap where these people are unable to conceive of putting together a few steps to move forward, preferring instead to flail in the wind trying to sell a false narrative.
One has to wonder at what point will it sink in that Israel is a reality that will not disassemble itself, regardless of what narrative is followed.
September 11, 2009 at 4:53 pm
mita
1peter/SilverTrees re Papalagi
Up to last week this puppy believed that Benny Morris was the equal of Ilan Pappe in the saintly ranks of anti-Israeli historians. This week he fell from his high place and Tom Segev has replaced him in the heavenly pantheon.
September 12, 2009 at 1:18 am
Margie
About Human Rights Watch and the quality of their staff there is a collection of quotations from savvy websites at http://www.theolive-branch.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5378&p=44555#p44555
posted at12 Sep 2009 07:11 am
September 12, 2009 at 5:01 am
peterthehungarian
I think that criticising Papalagi is a waste of time. This person is clearly a narcistic psycopath “blessed” with a double king size ego and the total lack of selfevaluation ability. Allowing him to post on CIF makes a huge contribution to the Zionist cause demonstrating the intellectual quality of the “anti-Zionist” commentariat.
September 12, 2009 at 5:08 am
Mita
Since the discussion of the Benny Morris article is closed I wonder whether anyone else has noticed this gem by Pretzelberg:
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“d) I’ve just seen the Morris interview with Jonathan Freedland, in which he exposes himself as a racist. A higher rate of crime amongst Arab Israelis is indicative of their culture? How do the figures break down amongst poor vs. wealthy Jewish Israelis, I wonder …”
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This reverse bigotry ensures that you cannot mention observed facts if their political correctness does not measure up to the standards of the commenter. Whether or not they are correct is irrelevant to Pretzelberg.
He assumes that the findings are influenced by economic factors and that Benny Morris is too ignorant or too prejudiced to protect his own considerable reputation by not allowing for these variables before speaking out. He also assumes that the Arabs who commit crime are poorer than the Jews who don’t. I am interested in how else he would explain the facts if the economic factors were not relevant: if he chooses genetics his own racist tendencies would be at fault: cultural conditioning is the only explaination.
September 13, 2009 at 2:23 am
exiledlondoner
Mita,
“He assumes that the findings are influenced by economic factors and that Benny Morris is too ignorant or too prejudiced to protect his own considerable reputation by not allowing for these variables before speaking out.”
Watch the interview – Benny Morris clearly didn’t allow for any variables – he gave the bald statistics.
For example he said Arab Israelis have twice as many fatal car accidents as Jewish Israelis – no doubt this is true.
Factors could include the age and condition of the cars they drive, the condition of roads in Arab areas, the cost of mechanics, the distances travelled, and a host of other factors – Benny Morris offered none, other than less respect for human life.
A few years back the Met Police Commissioner, Paul Condon, made a speech about the high number of street robberies carried out by black youths, and gor severely criticised for it.
He wasn’t criticised because he was factually wrong – he wasn’t – but because it was only part of the story. In Britain burglary and car crime are largely the preserve of young white men, growing skunk has become a vietnamese speciality, during the 30s and 40s the ‘razor gangs’ were mainly Italians and Maltese, and major fraud convictions involve a disproportionate number of Jews.
Any one of these things could be used to demonise a people (as Benny Morris seemed to do), or could be put in its context.