This is a guest post from Bataween of Point of No Return
It’s easier to condemn Comment is Free for what it does than for its sins of omission. And for a site that focuses disproportionately on Middle Eastern issues, CiF is remarkably coy about the forgotten Jewish refugees from Arab countries.
There were more Jewish refugees fleeing from Arab countries after 1948 than Palestinian Arabs from Israel. There were more of them, they lost more and suffered more.
But only rarely have Jewish refugees been the subject of attention at Comment is Free. Coinciding with a conference in London in June 2008, Matt Seaton allowed Lyn Julius to put the case for Jewish refugees. But he also got David Cesarani, an academic not known for his expertise in this field, bizarrely to argue that Jews who fled Arab countries should not have their suffering compared to ‘the misery of the Palestinians’. Rachel Shabi, the Guardian’s pet Mizrahi, was then wheeled out to deny that Jewish refugees were refugees at all – in fact most were Zionists who left of their own free will – an argument which she contradicts in some of her other writings. It’s a classic CiF strategy: obscure, confuse, and de-construct historical fact.
The denial of what is being increasingly becoming known as the ‘Jewish naqba’ is central to the Guardian’s agenda.
On no account must the ‘de facto’ exchange between roughly equal numbers of Arab and Jewish refugees be permitted to challenge the Palestinians’ exclusive claim to victimhood.
On no account must the successful integration of the majority of Jewish refugees in Israel and elsewhere be mentioned. This would undermine the ‘sacred’ right of return of Palestinian refugees to Israel. It would be disastrous if the reader twigged that Palestinian refugees could just as easily be resettled – if not more easily – in Arab host countries.
On no account must the idea that the Jews in Israel are anything other than ‘white’ interlopers from Europe, engaged in a colonial adventure in Palestine, be challenged. The whole edifice of Guardian groupthink crumbles once you introduce the notion that around half the population of Israeli Jews come from ‘indigenous’ communities in the ‘Arab’ world predating Islam by 1,000 years.
Commenters on CiF fervently believe that Jews only came to Israel from Arab countries as immigrants, or were forced to flee by ’Zionist bombs’. This ‘Zionist conspiracy’ conveniently lets Arab governments off the hook for the state-sanctioned persecution of their Jews.
Some commenters admit that violence and Arab antisemitism did force the Jews out, but that it was an ’excusable backlash’ provoked by Israel’s creation. Before 1948, Jews and Muslims ‘lived in perfect harmony’. The word ‘dhimmi’ – the condition of institutionalised humiliation of 14 centuries of Jewish and Christian life under Islam – is virtually unknown on CiF.
On the rare occasions that Jews from Arab countries feature on Comment is Free, they do so as ‘Arab Jews or Jewish Arabs’ – fellow victims of the ruling Ashkenazim, united in discrimination with the Palestinians. It is Zionism which has driven an artificial wedge between ‘Arab Jews’ and ‘Muslim Arabs’. (See the writings of Khaled Diab here and discussed here and Rachel Shabi here) Yet another reason for CiF to endorse the one-state solution, where the Jews can revert to the idyll of their minority existence in Arab lands.
Jewish refugees are at the heart of the Middle East conflict. Stuck in its one-sided cheerleading for Palestinian refugees, by its ‘Jewish naqba denial’, the Guardian is skewing the ‘narrative’. Surely its readers deserve better?






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September 8, 2009 at 11:40 pm
CIFDisgustsMe
Yes.
After so many years trying to demonize Israel for actually existing, it must be such a comedown to accept that the ‘victims’ are the guilty ones who expelled their Jewish populations.
The very mention of historical writings tabulating Jewish communities who were the victims of Muslim Pogroms throughout history is also an embarrassment to the denizens of CI(F).
September 9, 2009 at 2:52 am
pennine
On no account must the “Lavon Affair” be mentioned or any other Zionistic terroist antics to foment strife between Arabs and Jews.
September 9, 2009 at 3:15 am
zamalek
Pennine, you are a classic example of a ‘Jewish naqba’ denier. Please tell how incendiary devices planted in offices which did little damage and killed and injured nobody in 1954, could have caused the expulsion of a quarter of the Jewish population of Egypt two years later, their property sequestered and given 24 hours’ notice to leave the country.
September 9, 2009 at 3:24 am
Eliyahu
Bataween rightly characterizes what CIF and other press and broadcasting outlets are doing. They are instilling a “narrative” for long term purposes. Some anti-Israel themes go back to the 1940s, that is, Jews who were Nazi victims have become Nazis, are acting like Nazis.
IN the 60s, new themes emerged. Israel was no longer fighting the whole Arab world, but a hitherto unknown small, innocuous, ever innocent people called “palestinians,” although journalists wrote as if there had already and always been “palestinians.”
Another theme of the 60s was especially promoted by the so-called “Left.” In the soft version, the Jews were said to have made a mistake by setting up their state in the land of a “non-white” people. This insinuated that the Jews were “white,” if not “ultra-white.” We now more commonly run into the hard version of this argument: the Jews are merely European colonialists like all others who deliberately came to “palestine” to despoil the “palestinians”. It doesn’t matter that 100 years ago, bigots in Britain were calling Jews “Orientals” who were not quite white. Jews were commonly seen in Europe as not really European no matter how long their forefathers had been there. In British literature, we see this in Thackeray’s Vanity Fair, for example. Later in the 19th century, there was Trilby by DuMaurier. Here the villain is a swarthy Polish Jew who corrupts a pure white maiden. Note that the villain was a swarthy Polish Jew, not a native of Syria or Egypt or India. DuMaurier was also an illustrator for Punch where cartoons mocking the Sassoon family [originally from Baghdad]
were common, particularly the athletically proficient family member who belonged to the circle of the Prince of Wales. John Buchan’s 39 Steps too identifies the Jew –in this case a German Jew– as the enemy of Britain.
Now, the Jews’ skin color has been magically transformed into a uniform white for all Jews and the Jews who went to Israel from Europe are insinuated to have been real, authentic Europeans all along just like every body else. So What was the Holocaust all about??
The constant factor here is that Jews in Europe were perceived in many countries, including the UK, as alien, not quite belonging to the nation, Orientals, etc. In fact, the Jews did not originate in Europe although Jews lived there for nearly 2 millenia. Now, the locus of the Jews’ alien nature has been transposed to the Middle East, whence they had originated in historical fact, but were now –post 1948– just Europeans like everybody else but worse, more guilty of colonialism.
Also forgotten is that the Arab nationalist movement were eager admirers of the Nazis, for the most part. This included the chief Palestinian Arab leader, Haj Amin el-Husseini who urged the Germans to kill more Jews, and asked Hitler before they met in Berlin to recognize the Arab right to solve the “Jewish Question” in the Arab lands as it was being solved in Europe.
These facts as well as the age-old oppression of Jews in Arab lands as dhimmis, cannot be allowed to intrude into the narrative, which belongs to what someone has called cogwar, that is cognitive warfare, a form of psywar operating over the long term to change attitudes and perceptions and loyalties, etc. The cogwar has superficially reversed old perceptions of Jews as alien to Europe with the new belief that they are alien to the Middle East. But the underlying belief in the Jews’ alien nature remains. This shows the success of the cogwar campaign.
September 9, 2009 at 3:46 am
exiledlondoner
“There were more Jewish refugees fleeing from Arab countries after 1948 than Palestinian Arabs from Israel. There were more of them, they lost more and suffered more.”
What’s this – a suffering contest? Am I the only one who find this to be rather tasteless?
“On no account must the ‘de facto’ exchange between roughly equal numbers of Arab and Jewish refugees be permitted to challenge the Palestinians’ exclusive claim to victimhood.”
There was no de facto population exchange, as there was for example between India and Pakistan, or Greece and Turkey – the vast majority of Jewish refugees were expelled from the Arab States, not from Palestinian lands. What happened was two distinct rounds of ethnic cleansing – of Palestinian Arabs from Israel to the surrounding region, and of Jews from the Arab states to many countries, but mainly to Israel.
The issue with Lyn Julius’s article was her basic proposal that the Jewish refugees should be ‘compensated’, not by the Arab states that through them out, but by the Palestinians, and that this ‘compensation’ should take the form of Palestinian land, and the removal of Palestinian rights, that would benefit Israel.
This self-serving, legally incoherent, and unjust proposal would allow one of the ethnic cleansers (Israel) to further benefit from its actions, the other ethnic cleansers (the Arab states) to escape any responsibility for their actions, and force the Palestinian people to not only bear the brunt of Israel’s ethnic cleansing, but also to pay the price for the ethnic cleansing carried out by the Arab states.
Looking at CIF Watch’s “About us” page..
“We are a grassroots, unaffiliated group that is neither left wing nor right wing, religious nor secular, that is dedicated to exposing antisemitism on ‘Comment is Free’.”
..I can’t help noticing that this piece hardly matches your stated ideals. Any link to CIF is pretty much incidental – this is a clear voicing of a pretty extreme Zionist position; one that many Zionists would find unpalatable.
Is it the policy of CIF Watch to be a platform for those who wish to belittle and delegitimise the Palestinian experience and promote extremist agendas?
September 9, 2009 at 4:46 am
JerusalemMite
Exiled – What’s this – a suffering contest? Am I the only one who find this to be rather tasteless?
That’s nice. I have now identified a trope that will get your knickers in a twist. It’s like when on CI(F) one of the ‘usual suspects’ writes that the Palestinians were forced to leave their homes.
September 9, 2009 at 4:55 am
exiledlondoner
JerusalemMite,
“That’s nice. I have now identified a trope that will get your knickers in a twist. It’s like when on CI(F) one of the ‘usual suspects’ writes that the Palestinians were forced to leave their homes.”
I’m very happy for you, but many Palestinians were indeed forced to leave their homes, so I’m not quite sure what this trope you have identified is?
September 9, 2009 at 5:45 am
Adina
Refugees from Arab countries were forced to flee their homes, and it’s not surprising that Comment is Free plays that down, but if you look at facts – there ARE some Jews remaining in Arab countries – not a lot, but some. Take many Persian Jews, who have lived in Persia/Iran all their lives, and don’t want to leave? We’ve heard all about the “threats” and “intimidation” to the Jewish community there – but the fact remains – many Persian Jews I’ve spoken to are content with their lot in Iran. Articles written about Jews in Iran being constantly terrified are to say the least disingenuous.
It’s a hiding to nothing when we start to compare who suffered most, when we consider that even now indigenous Arabs living in Israel feel they are disadvantaged because of the contemptible behaviour of some settlers who are NOT indigenous to the area. Who can say they do not deserve compensation?
Now… compensation for Jewish refugees. I’m surprised that nobody pays any attention to the doors being opened about this. Has nobody ever thought that if Jews from Arab lands are compensated, the door is open for the Palestinians to start actions to claim compensation from Israel?
It’s about time people looked at the bigger picture. Never mind “interested parties” and organisations outside the frame getting involved, who are “looking after the interests of the dispossessed”. The question we have to ask is can Israel afford to be in the situation where she’s backed into a corner about this? The time has passed where Israel can fudge her way out of things like this by obfuscation – can she really afford another reason for the world to look askance at her?
September 9, 2009 at 5:55 am
sababa
bataween, great post that makes some very important points, though I have to say that I don’t like much the term “Jewish naqba”, and none of the victims who experienced it that I know like it either. After all, the Arab term “naqba” to describe the Palestinian plight in 48 was chosen consciously to parallel the Hebrew Shoah.
exiledlondoner, you may not be aware of it, but the arguments you field here only go to show that you don’t quite know what you’re talking about — and this after being a Cif-I-P veteran going back all the way to Cif’s beginnings, I guess.
As is often said, exiled, 2 wrongs don’t make a right, but your line of argument here conveniently ignores a couple of important facts (and you know, supposedly, those are sacred, eh?), such as:
1) the Palestinians have always, up to this very day, considered themselves an inseperable part of the “great Arab nation” or some such;
2) the Jews were driven out of Arab countries expressly for the cause of the Palestinians/Arabs, with express Arab League support, and the Palestinians were in the Arab League, and no protest of them against this measure is on record
3) you mention legal considerations — yeah, right, you regard yourself as something of an expert in this field, don’t you? Well, if you were, you would know that the relevant UN resolutions talk about “refugees” from the I-P conflict, not about “Palestinian refugees” — and that was for all that is known a conscious choice
4) last but not least, everyone who claims to be for universal human rights and claims concerns for the plight of refugees whoever they may be — even if they are Zionists!!! — should have a bit of a problem with the fact that the UN rushed to establish a special agency to take care of the Palestinian refugees, while the same UN refused to lift a finger when already in spring 1947, Jewish groups protested the laws that were drafted by the Arab League to dispossess and expel Jews from Arab countries. At the time, these events were well covered by the media, e.g. the NYTimes, so it wasn’t unknown — and here goes pennine’s argument up in a big puff of smelly hot air…
September 9, 2009 at 6:12 am
SilverTrees
Adina, if Israel cared what the world thought of her she would have packed her bags and marched into the sea long ago. Look back at Medusa’s article about the Big Lie and its effects on the people who read it again and again and again.
I would prefer to be an Israeli Arab than a Jew in Iran or in the Yemen:
Do you remember the crisis recently involving the tinyYemeni Jewish community, see http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3765891,00.html
and
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3637452,00.html
These Jews did no harm. Their community history stretches back centuries. They merely wanted to be left alone.
I would really like to interview happy and contented Persian Jews. It must be rather a bizarre existence (and call for a certain dissociation by them) for them to hear Iminadinnerjacket mouthing off the official party line in Jew-hatred and yet apparently enjoy remaining where they are.
I am playing “who suffered most.” The example from the Yemen is a mere fractal of Mizrachi Jewish experience and the Jewish experience in Arab states.
And it’s still going on isn’t it?
September 9, 2009 at 6:13 am
SilverTrees
oops! should have written “I am NOT playing who suffered most.”
Apologies…
September 9, 2009 at 6:21 am
SilverTrees
exiled, why are you criticising CiFWatch for allegedly not living up to its stated ideals?
I would take your babble much more seriously had you provided proof here of any conversations you have had with your good friend with whom you are on first name terms – “Georgina” – about the actual disparity between CiF’s stated ideals and its total inability to accept or learn from criticism and allow freedom of speech to those who disagree with it?
Let’s face it you and your ilk are allowed more freedom to express yourself here than you would ever have on CiF. Is that why you keep on posting here and getting the threads hits?
More importantly, when was the last time you posted in such terms to CiF?
Oh, I see. You’re afraid of being deleted or banned.
Well, people are banned for much less, as AKUS’ experience shows.
September 9, 2009 at 6:56 am
Mita
This appeared on the Sultany thread yesterday:
grumpyoldman
08 Sep 09, 7:37pm (about 16 hours ago)
@ graniteman
Oh right, almost all Jews in the Arab countries were driven from their homes decades ago and their property confiscated.
Not true. Many, like my grandparents left because they were in business and settled where their interests were best served. In their case that meant Manchester which was, at the time, a centre for the cotton trade.
In fact it was routine for theSephardim of the former Ottoman Empire to add as a blessing at the end of a briss:
…and may he live in Manchester.
Not, you will note, Jerusalem.
————————————————————
An attempt by someone who had previously mentioned “jihadism among the so-called settlers, and their friends in the IDF.” to pooh-pooh the whole idea.
As JoerganTW pointed out almost immediately the Ottoman Empire and the expulsion were removed in time from each other.
I think it was Blue Warrior (uncertainty due to the deletion system) who pointed out to him that Spharadim don’t talk Yiddish and don’t talk of a briss.
September 9, 2009 at 7:18 am
Adina
SilverTrees, with respect to you, you’re entirely missing the point of my post. It’s all very well for you to say that “if Israel cared…. etc. etc.” but at the end of the day that thinking is outmoded, and I say this as an Israeli who’s lived in England for quite some time, but visits family there often. The Israel I knew no longer exists, and in these globalisation times (which I do not and have never agreed with) every country needs the others. Israel does need the rest of the world. You should look at the bigger picture.
Do I detect doubt in your mind about my statement about Persian Jews? By all means interview a few, not just one or two. Look at this link, as well:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/archive/index.php/t-448868.html
In the urge to demonise all things Iranian, we have to be careful that, as my English friends say – the “boy scout” syndrome is not in play. This is the one where boy scouts see an old lady at the side of the road and without asking her, take her to the other side. It turns out that she was just resting and didn’t want to go…. I know of many Persian Jews who returned to Iran.
September 9, 2009 at 7:19 am
Mita
Exile, “and force the Palestinian people to not only bear the brunt of Israel’s ethnic cleansing, but also to pay the price for the ethnic cleansing carried out by the Arab states.”
——————————————————
It is just the same shoe on another foot.
That is pretty much the position that most pro-Pals on c.i.f. take towards Israel about the Palestinians isn’t it? (and let me say now that I will write Pals or Pal here not out of disrespect but because it is easier – as long as the owners of the site do not express their disagreement.)
They consider that we forcibly expelled all the Pals who left –
disagree that any might have left for other reasons.
They consider that “the Ashkenazi” Jews did it with brute force and malice aforethought,
and demand both that they receive not only compensation but also a ‘right of return’ to Israel until the third and fourth generation and forever after and they
demand an apology.
September 9, 2009 at 7:46 am
Ariadne
Eliyahu – What a great summary!
September 9, 2009 at 7:57 am
Eliyahu
exiledlondoner seems unaware that the British army facilitated “ethnic cleansing” of Jews by Arabs from Jerusalem [what later became "East Jerusalem" after 1948]. The first refugees in Israel’s War of Independence were Jews, not Arabs. Jews were driven out of the Shimon haTsadiq Quarter around the Tomb of Simon the Just in December 1947. They could not go home after the war. The British army had attacked the Jewish forces, the Haganah, which tried to take the neighborhood back in April 1948. The Haganah retreated under the British onslaught and the Jews of Shim’on haTsadiq could not go home after the war.
Here’s more about the Shim`on haTsadiq Quarter in what became “East Jerusalem” in 1948 after the Jews living there had been expelled.
- – - – - – - – - – - – - -
The Shimon haTsadiq plot of land was purchased jointly back about 1880 by the committees of the Sefardic and Ashkenazic communities in Jerusalem. See link for a photo:
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2009/08/old-synagogue-in-shimon-hatsadiq.html
Very small houses for poor Jews were built on the plot, which also contains, of course, the Tomb of Simon the Just [Shimon haTsadiq]. The poor Jews living in those homes were driven out very early in Israel’s War of Independence, in December 1947, although one family hung on for about 10 days more. Hence, these Jews of the Shim`on haTsadiq Quarter were the first people in the country who were driven from their homes [by Arab irregular forces led by the Husseinis] and could not go home after the war, whereas Jews in south Tel Aviv, driven out by Arab sniper fire from mosque minarets in Jaffa/Yafo, could go home after the war.
Now, not all of the plot was built up. The house from which Arabs were evicted a month or so ago was built by Arabs with Jordanian govt authorization about 1955-56 along with other houses still inhabited by Arabs. The older homes on the plot, originally inhabited by Jews, were also given to Arabs to live in by the Jordanian govt.
According to some Israeli press reports [in the JPost? by Dan Izenberg?], some children of the family had bought houses elsewhere in the city and have been living in them.
The real scandal here is that the Jews living here, in Shim`on haTsadiq, were the first people in the country driven out of their homes in the war who could not go home after the war. And nobody talks about it, not the British who facilitated the expulsion of the Jews from Shim`on haTsadiq, not the State Dept or the White House who are blatantly hostile to Jews and cling to their lies about Jewish and Israeli history, not the Arabs of course, nor the Israel govt, nor the so-called “new historians” who claim to bring out forgotten truths.
The text above and below was originally posted as comments on the Point of No Return site 12:26 PM, September 09, 2009
This post linked to below has more on the Shim`on haTsadiq Quarter and the adjacent Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood. Plus two photos.
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2009/08/semi-official-german-spokesman-wants-to.html
However, the focus is on a German semi-official institution located in the adjacent Sheikh Jarrah Quarter, first built up by wealthy Arabs.
September 9, 2009 at 8:00 am
Eliyahu
Thanks, Ariadne
Sababa made several points that I wanted to make but he or she got there first. All kudos [kol hakavod] to Sababa
September 9, 2009 at 8:17 am
Ariadne
Eliyahu – That is exactly the kind of information that needs to be got out. I hope some very rich people interested in justice will consider establishing a global satellite television channel for Israel as a poster to the Elder of Ziyon blog suggested.
September 9, 2009 at 8:46 am
AKUS
It is easy to avoid any comparison on CIF between the “Jewish naqba” and the “Palestinian naqba” for the simple reason that Israel has integrated the Jewish refugees from Arab countries into its society,as it did with the European refugees after WW II, then the Russians, etc. You can argue over the degree of success in each ethnic group, but the bottom line is that there are no refugee camps for Jews from Arab countries in Israel.
Moreover, it is also true of those Arabs who stayed in Israel after 1948. There are no refugee camps for Arabs in Israel
You can argue discrimination, etc., as you could for groups in any country I can think of, but you cannot dispute the fact that as a group Israeli Arabs have comparable services, economic opportunities, equality before the law, etc. This despite articles on CIF like the ludicrous Sultany article now running there which claims that an Arab with the same last name ( a coy co-incidence!) is discriminated against, but the bottom line is that this Arab Israeli (“political activist of the National Democratic Assembly (NDA), a party that calls for the transformation of Israel from a Jewish state into a state for all its citizens” – as if he is not a citizen!!) who traveled to anti-Israeli conferences in Arab countries was a member of the very same gym that the Israeli Chief of Staff uses!
In the contrary, the Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 were deliberately maintained in refugee camps (actually, now townships) by the countries around Israel, a task made easier by the existence of UNRWA.
UNRWA took the economic burden off the shoulders of the surrounding countries. This allowed those countries to institutionalize the Palestinians’ refugee status. You might argue, as no doubt they do, that they should not have to bear the economic burden, but there are two opposing arguments: their own economies would have benefited from the additional labor and other resources this group could have created if they had been absorbed into their societies, just as Israel did with the Jewish refugees, and, if we are playing the Jewish naqba vs Palestinian naqba game, by the same token Israel should not have had to bear the burden of integrating the Mizrahi Jews into its economy.
As can be seen over and over, be it the current expulsions from Kuwait or the removal of Jordanian citizenship from Palestinians living for decades in Jordan, the maintenance of segregated townships in Lebanon, the refusal to grant work permits or study permits to Palestinians living in Lebanon,the surrounding Arab countries no more want their Palestinian brothers than Israel does. And, in fact, in most cases they have been treated far worse in those countries, kept at the level of refugees, migrant workers, little better than serfs.
UNRWA’s economic assistance was accepted and acceptable as long as it was directed at maintaining the Palestinians’ refugee status rather than moving them into the mainstream of the surrounding countries. Without that assistance, or had they accepted the assistance as part of a program of absorption of the refugees, the surrounding countries would have been forced at some point to accept that they had to integrate those Palestinians into their societies and economies, and this issue would no longer exist. India and Pakistan provide an example of how far greater numbers of refugees were integrated into their societies.
The debate on CIF never accounts for this, and those condemning Israel for its treatment of Palestinians never have the same level of opprobrium for their treatment in surrounding countries.
Deliberately kept as a festering sore for propaganda purposes the Palestinian refugee problem has been, in a horrible way, one of the great PR successes of the 20th and now 21st centuries. Its proponents succeed in dwarfing the far greater horrors and numbers of sufferers in events in Rwanda, Darfur, Sri Lanka, and the situation was and is entirely avoidable.
Even more ironic is that until the intifadas life for Palestinian refugees in areas under Israeli occupation was actually been BETTER than life in refugee townships in the countries around Israel by measures such as economic advances, education, healthcare etc. The most destructive actors the Palestinians have suffered from are, in fact, their own leaders – Arafat. Meshaal, Haniyah – who led them down a path of violence that could have no other outcome than what amounts to war with the most powerful army in the near ME, with totally predictable results.
The supporters of Palestinians on CIF seem to have the ability at one and the same time to mourn the role of Palestinians as helpless victims, mere spectators in their own tragedy, and fiercely approvel of their “armed struggle” as the only way forward. This was exemplified by the negative responses by many of those who cast themselves as supporters of Palestinian statehood on CIF to the article promoting institution building as the way to statehood by Ziad Assali, “If you Build it the State will Come” – because without such institutions, the current situation will be – well, institutionalized, even longer.
September 9, 2009 at 9:08 am
blue
Report: UAE to deport hundreds of Palestinians by month’s end : http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1112445.html
September 9, 2009 at 9:31 am
Observer
Adina
Articles written about Jews in Iran being constantly terrified are to say the least disingenuous.
Articles written about Jews in Iran being constantly terrified are completely accurate.
They don’t leave because:
- the Iranian autrhorities will not give exit visas to an entire family
- they must leave impoverished
- from the moment they apply for exit, they lose jobs & sustenance & may be subject to violence.
Simply put, Iran is holding the remaining 20,000 Jews hostage.
September 9, 2009 at 9:36 am
SilverTrees
Adina, I don’t at all doubt your statement about Persian Jews! Indeed I have heard the same from other people, including my family in Israel. I stand by what I said, however, in relation to this, about the likely necessity for dissociation (and to that I would add “denial”) in order to be able to stay (and, one assumes, to feel safe) in a country ruled by a regime whose leader spouts such hatred of Jews. I also meant what I said that I would like to interview some of these people, to get to know their experience first hand. This is not dismissing of what you yourself or my family have said!
And, yes, Israel needs the world. However does she need the world’s approval – because given the filth on CiF and elsewhere, she’s never going to get it, is she?
Have you read “The Olso Syndrome: Delusions of a people under siege”by Kenneth Levin? It documents Israel’s too-ready belief in the Oslo peace process because she was desperate for peace and therefore blind then to the threats to it by Arafat’s lies. Among other things it also addresses what it calls Israel’s awakening because of the terror war and its subsequent disappointment that its hopes had been dashed. This is summed up by Levin quoting Israeli journalist and commentator, Hirsh Goodman:
“I supported Oslo. I supported talking with Arafat. The greatest disappointment was to discover that despite everything I believed, everything I’ve promulgated, that asshole never gave up terror.
Think of the ramifications of Oslo for future peace talks.
AKUS, you hit the nail on the head when you describe the wilful subjection of Palestinians in neighbouring countries to hardship and distress there, and the deliberate fostering of a culture of belligerent self-pity.
It’s the equivalent of bread and circuses in ancient Rome, isn’t it, a device to distract the populace from the corruption and grave shortcomings of their governments.
September 9, 2009 at 9:40 am
SilverTrees
I seem to have lost my manners. Bataween, this is an excellent article. More power to you!
September 9, 2009 at 9:45 am
blue
@Observer, Adina is correct that Persian-Jews do travel to and from Israel and have been doing so for a good while (even during Khomeini’s rule)
@Adina – small point (ish) Parsim are distinct from Jews from Arab lands, though there is an historic link between Jews of Persia and Mesopotamia.
Some great posts here, informative and measure. cif’s loss is this and other site gain, I think. Try to look back later, some of these guys (above) are compulsive reading.
Have a good day/ evening, everyone.
September 9, 2009 at 9:49 am
Observer
Akus
This was exemplified by the negative responses by many of those who cast themselves as supporters of Palestinian statehood on CIF to the article promoting institution building as the way to statehood by Ziad Assali, “If you Build it the State will Come” – because without such institutions, the current situation will be – well, institutionalized, even longer.
Indeed, CiF seems to derive vicarious pleasure from Palestinian suffering, at least in part because of the excuse it gives Guardianistas to vent their Jew-hatred.
September 9, 2009 at 9:54 am
bataween
Just to clarify a few points:
Sababa is not comfortable with the term ‘Jewish naqba’ – I don’t like it either, but it seems to be gaining currency, in the absence of a suitable alternative. Can you think of a better expression?
Exiled makes the point that there should be no contest of suffering between Palestinians and Jews. I did not intend to minimise the suffering of Palestinians who were displaced, expelled and lost their homes. But Jews who were hundreds of miles from the battlezone in Arab countries were singled out for oppression and persecution in 1947, as Sababa says, even before war broke out in Palestine, just because they were Jews.
Without mentioning the pogroms and centuries of history as oppressed dhimmis, Jews in Arab countries were subject to civil and human rights violations, culminating in arrests, executions, travel bans, extortion, frozen bank accounts, loss of jobs, education bans, as well as loss of their homes and property and expulsion – just for being Jews. These are the ugly features leading to genuine ethnic cleansing.
Palestinians suffered by virtue of being caught up in a war. No Palestinian was ever singled out by Israel for persecution just for being Palestinian. They were not ethnically cleansed: hence one million Arabs live in Israel today. Barely 4,500 Jews live in Arab countries (1 percent), and as commenters have pointed out, the oppression is still going on – witness the flight of Jews from Yemen.
As far as I can see Lyn Julius in her CiF article never mentioned compensation, nor that Palestinians should pay the price for what other Arab states did to their Jews. As Sababa eloquently says, the Arab League went to war at the behest of and on behalf of the Palestinians – theirs was a pan-Arab cause. At the same time the Arab regimes waged a domestic war on their Jews, but the best these defenceless Jews could do was run for their lives, if that option was available to them. Otherwise the regimes kept them as hostages.
The Arab League bears a heavy responsiblity for not only invading Israel in 1948 but keeping the conflict alive. It was the Arab League which decreed in the 1950s that Palestinians should not be granted citizenship in Arab states (except in Jordan, and now even Jordan is stripping them of their citizenship). Palestinians would be entirely justified in holding the Arab League responsible for much of their suffering.
People have suggested that in a final settlement Jewish losses in Arab countries and Palestinian losses in Israel should cancel each other out, but this would be doing a great injustice to the Jews who being city-dwellers lost prime property in Arab countries and deeded land estimated at four or five times the size of Israel itself.
Adina, my piece was not meant to refer to Jews from Iran who were not included in the post-1948 exchange of refugees with the Arab world. However Iran has lost four-fifths of their Jews since 1979 and it is false to pretend that their situation is anything but precarious.
September 9, 2009 at 9:58 am
Observer
Blue
Observer, Adina is correct that Persian-Jews do travel to and from Israel and have been doing so for a good while (even during Khomeini’s rule)
You make an error in lack of understanding of the methods of authoritarian regimes.
It is illegal for Persian Jews to have contact with Israel. It is, however, to the regime’s advantage to “look the other way,” since Jews who do so have then given the regime a quite terrible sword of Damocles to hold over Jews’ head forever thereafter, to enforce dhimmitude.
Any Jew having had contact with Israel or Israeli-resident relatives knows that he must remain docile and subjugated, otherwise at any moment he may be arrested for treason, collaboration with Zionists, etc. And we know what would happen to him in an Iranian prison.
Meanwhile, those who visit Israel and consider staying, risk the well-being of their families back in Iran.
I re-assert that Adina is a revisionist. The remaining Iranian Jews are hostages.
September 9, 2009 at 9:59 am
bataween
Silvertrees, thanks for the compliment!
September 9, 2009 at 10:00 am
SilverTrees
Observer that’s quite an accusation. Can you provide us with some disinterested sources to prove what you are arguing?
September 9, 2009 at 10:01 am
Observer
Adina
I know of many Persian Jews who returned to Iran.
An anecdote used to imply a lie. The numbers speak for themselves. Of a millennia-old Iranian Jewish community of 150,000, barely 15% remain.
September 9, 2009 at 10:11 am
Observer
A more accurate view of the precarious, subordinate existence of Iran’s Jewish hostages, than the lies given by Adina:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=12362
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/11/eveningnews/main2248331.shtml
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/012445.php
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?p=307068
http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2008/07/20/shi%E2%80%99ite-iran%E2%80%99s-genocidal-jew-hatred-part-1/
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1634857/posts
September 9, 2009 at 10:15 am
Observer
More about the Jews of Iran, who are victims of hate and discrimination in every activity. To obtain any position of responsibility, they must pass review by a Muslim morals board and do not pass.
They don’t leave because they are unwilling to leave a family member behind to die. Occasionally a whole family escapes over neighbouring borders. Innocent Jews have been executed in the past so all now know to keep their mouths shut & they can be executed at any time.
http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/2008/10/and-now-truth-about-jews-of-iran.html
http://www.adl.org/backgrounders/Iranian_Jews.asp
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/breaking/oldiran.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,318248,00.html
September 9, 2009 at 10:33 am
JerusalemMite
Observer. Thank you for posting those links.
I suspect that if you had done so on a CI(F) thread, the comment would have been removed as it was not in line with ‘The Guardian World View’.
I always used to laugh sullenly at any videos or speeches of the one Jewish member of the Majliss. He would condemn Israel is no uncertain terms. Repeatedly.
Then I remember Arab members of Israel’s Knesset and how they too condemn Israel is no uncertain terms. Repeatedly.
The contrast is sad and missed by the denizens of CI(F). Probably purposely.
September 9, 2009 at 10:34 am
Observer
Bataween’s own blog documents well the precarious situation of Iranian Jews, here:
http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/search/label/Jews%20of%20Iran
One citation, from a letter to the New York Times:
The State Department — which does not embrace the hawks’ position on Iran — in its “International Religious Freedom Report 2008” found that Iran’s Jews live in a “threatening atmosphere” and that religious minorities suffer “officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and housing.”
Threatening atmosphere, eh, Adina? Enough naive whitewashing of a brutal regime and its 20,000 Jewish hostages.
What will happen to them if Israel attacks Iran?
September 9, 2009 at 10:44 am
SilverTrees
Observer, thank for the links.
September 9, 2009 at 10:49 am
Observer
So long as we’re publishing anecdotes, here’s one: Many Iranian Jews admit privately they lock themselves in their homes during Ashura, due to the significant potential for violence.
Isn’t life wondeful for Iranian Jews?
September 9, 2009 at 10:52 am
Adina
Observer – I am wondering if this is a waste of time replying to you – judging by the rush of links you have sent.
For example, the ADL link you sent , unlike the American Abe Foxman, I am an Israeli. He supports things what he thinks is a pro-Israel agenda. He often confuses his position in a supposedly American civil rights movement with supporting what he “thinks” is a pro Israeli line, but having looked at the links you sent and what you’re saying, you’re a propagandist yourself. I know Iranian Jews who moved to Israel, and who deny outright the things that you and Abe Foxman, for example, have to say.
Something else that you and Abe Foxman have in common, is that anybody who doesn’t agree with what you say is either ignored or smeared.
Your posts are full of hyperbole – for example any Iranian Jew who denies what you say is suffering from some sort of syndrome or they’re crazy, or an Israeli like me who comes forward to counter this sort of rubbish is called a liar.
It’s your kind of attitude which will put a lot of people off engaging, and this is what our enemies accuse us of – anybody who steps out of a certain party line is attacked in this way.
September 9, 2009 at 11:20 am
exiledlondoner
Bataween,
“Sababa is not comfortable with the term ‘Jewish naqba’ – I don’t like it either, but it seems to be gaining currency, in the absence of a suitable alternative. Can you think of a better expression?”
Something in Hebrew?
“Exiled makes the point that there should be no contest of suffering between Palestinians and Jews. I did not intend to minimise the suffering of Palestinians who were displaced, expelled and lost their homes.”
So what’s “There were more of them, they lost more and suffered more” all about?
“But Jews who were hundreds of miles from the battlezone in Arab countries were singled out for oppression and persecution in 1947, as Sababa says, even before war broke out in Palestine, just because they were Jews.”
Nobody should be denying that.
“Palestinians suffered by virtue of being caught up in a war. No Palestinian was ever singled out by Israel for persecution just for being Palestinian.”
Singled out by Israel? Does that include the massacres and evictions carried out by Zionist groups?
“They were not ethnically cleansed: hence one million Arabs live in Israel today.”
Ah the “it isn’t ethnic cleansing if it isn’t complete” argument. The Arab population of Israel would be around 4 million, if it hadn’t been for a deliberate policy of ethnic cleansing.
“As far as I can see Lyn Julius in her CiF article never mentioned compensation, nor that Palestinians should pay the price for what other Arab states did to their Jews.”
Yes she did – she wanted the experiences of Jews driven out of the Arab states, and compensation for them, to form part of any negotiations with the Palestinians, and to be reflected in the final settlement.
“As Sababa eloquently says, the Arab League went to war at the behest of and on behalf of the Palestinians – theirs was a pan-Arab cause.”
The EUMC working definition suggests that one example of anti-semitism is the holding of all Jews responsible for the actions of groups of Jews, or of Israel – it seems that is acceptable to do that for Arabs though….
“People have suggested that in a final settlement Jewish losses in Arab countries and Palestinian losses in Israel should cancel each other out, but this would be doing a great injustice to the Jews who being city-dwellers lost prime property in Arab countries and deeded land estimated at four or five times the size of Israel itself.”
Self-pitying bollocks. The Palestinians have been left subjugated and stateless for 60 years. There’s a valid debate to be had about how to apportion the blame for this between those who drove them out, and the Arab states who used them as a pawn in their own game, but to claim that somehow the loss of property dwarfs the Palestinian experience is nothing more than a juvenile attempt to belittle an entire people.
Your entire aim is to demean, delegitimise and demonise the Palestinian people – if CIF Watch were serious about combatting racism, you would never have been allowed to write for them. The fact that you are a contributor rather suggests that CIF Watch is just another website for racial supremecists.
September 9, 2009 at 11:23 am
exiledlondoner
Adina,
“Something else that you and Abe Foxman have in common, is that anybody who doesn’t agree with what you say is either ignored or smeared.”
You’ve noticed that as well?
“It’s your kind of attitude which will put a lot of people off engaging, and this is what our enemies accuse us of – anybody who steps out of a certain party line is attacked in this way.”
Got it in one. Good luck with your attempt to take an independent view, but I can assure you that it won’t be appreciated.
September 9, 2009 at 11:31 am
blue
@Observer: “You make an error in lack of understanding of the methods of authoritarian regimes.”
Well, I will have to humbly disagree with you, I believe there is no error in either my understanding of authoritarianism, naturally, you have every right to disagree with me. My response will be brief, not through lack of respect to you but because of time constraint on my part.
Observer: ” Any Jew having had contact with Israel or Israeli-resident relatives knows that he must remain docile and subjugated, otherwise at any moment he may be arrested for treason, collaboration with Zionists, etc. And we know what would happen to him in an Iranian prison.”
This is not true, however much you want it to be.
Exclusive: Immigrant moves back ‘home’ to Teheran
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1131043721479&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
I know of many Parsim who have happily settled in Israel and other countries, but some do, return. And they are allowed to do so.
So we don’t go too far off topic, WRT Mesopotamia and the warped narrative regarding Jews who had to flee for their lives, i.e. Iraq: The Sunni have never tolerated minorities particularly well, i.e. Jews, Kurds, Christians, Alawite, Shi’ite, etc…(research Fritz Grobba and Haj Amin el-Husseini / el-Husseini in Iraq and Rashid Ali and 1941 coup – Also see, el-Husseini’s Fatwa against the British – el-Husseini aided by the Japanese, then the Italians, so forth – apologies that i lack teh time to offer suitable links ) I think before we exchanged posts re: why the British/Russians invaded Persia which was also pro German at the time.
Back to Iraqi pogroms and the central topic — the Farhud instigated the terrible murders of Jews on Shavuot 1941 where they butchered 135 men, women (some pregnant) and their children. After this, the Jews got out – about 284/285,000 (from memory, so you should check the numbers to be precise)
In my opinion, it is precisely because the experience of Oriental Jews has not been taught in conjunction with the Shoah and the experience of European Jews who survived, that there is a huge hole in the entire account of that time, and why the Arabs world in particular has been able to politicise the Palestinian narrative in isolation to the wider issues at that time, and indeed, to this day.
September 9, 2009 at 11:38 am
Mita
If I were an Iranian Jew I would say life was wonderful there too. Poor things.
September 9, 2009 at 12:10 pm
blue
P.S.
@Adina, you are Israeli ?? Regardless of what exiled writes!!
Ani maricha et ma shekatavt ve’et hazchut shelach ledaber bechofshiut. Zeh lama shafachnu dam venilchamnu keday lehisha’er chofshi. Ein li efsharut lichtov lach mamash be’ivrit ke’et – ani lo babayit. Ani maricha et ma shekatavt ve’et hazchut shelach ledaber bechofshiut. Zeh lama shafachnu dam venilchamnu keday lehisha’er chofshi.
@CifWatch, I trust a little Hebrew is allowed here (I wont make a habit of it – promise) I accept this is an English language site.
September 9, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Adina
Blue – todah, ve’ani maskima itach. Perhaps you should translate what you wrote to me?
September 9, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Adina
Blue many Arabs read Hebrew but have problems with transliteration. Are you checking me out?
September 9, 2009 at 12:27 pm
SilverTrees
“…. Your entire aim is to demean, delegitimise and demonise the Palestinian people..”
Er.. no exiled.
You are confusing this site with CiF’s attitude to Israelis and Jews, and I believe you are construing in that way because Palestinian suffering is far more important to you than that of Jews, and yet you have the nerve to call CiFWatch posters racists!
I will take your babblings seriously, rather than treat them as mouthings off for the sake of making a noise, when you summon up what’s left of your pathetic little courage and challenge your friend “Georgina” about CiF’s racist attitude to Israel and its Jewish population.
Until then you continue to make yourself look more and more foolish as well as providing more and more hits to this blog and making CiFWatch look more and more civilised. Editors, you should be thanking exiled for his help in getting you established.
September 9, 2009 at 12:28 pm
blue
כן לא יכול להיות זהיר מדי בימים אלה
September 9, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Adina
Behechlet!
September 9, 2009 at 12:35 pm
blue
@Adina. No offence intended, sabra, we can both put our “prickles” away, now. Shalom.
September 9, 2009 at 12:49 pm
SilverTrees
Adina, your reply to Observer is intriguing. I am wondering what disconcerts you about the links he has sent which underline his disagreement with you that life is a bowl of cherries for Iranian Jews?
I am also wondering why you misconstrued my perfectly honest and without agenda wish to be able to talk with Iranian Jews (to find out for myself whether they are indeed as content as we are led to believe) as an indication that I didn’t believe you, and that you ask whether Blue is trying to check you out. What makes you so nervous?