This is a guest post by AKUS (who for those that don’t know is a recently banned “below the line” pro-Israel commenter from CiF)
There are many aspects of the Guardian’s treatment of Israel, via its “Comment is Free” (CiF) website, that are troubling, but the most odious is the way it attracts articles and postings that deal with Israel, Jews, or Judaism that use analogies drawn from or related to Nazism.
A few examples I collected just from the thread on David Cesarani’s The Vatican must search its soul over Jews from May 13, 2009 dealing with the visit of the Pope to Israel demonstrate the issue with startling clarity:
“The only conclusion to draw is that these people believe their suffering is somehow more significant than other people in the rest of the world.” Gondwanaland 13 May 09, 10:55pm
“I am sick and tired of all this Jewish rancor [pure Hitler/Goebbels/Aryan brotherhood]. To be amenable to what? To Israel? A State that resembles so much the Nazis?” Brunomex 14 May 09, 12:52am (deleted comment)
Comment deleted, but the point at issue is the way the site draws someone like this – who would normally confine his comments to some kind of antisemitic hate site.
“Almost every religion, race, belief etc in existence gets articles here at the Guardian criticising them except for the people of Judaism. The Guardian’s impartiality will be under question while they maintain such a policy of exceptionalism, it’s not like there is a dearth of historical evidence for terrible historical deeds committed by Jews” 56000xp 13 May 09, 9:50pm (deleted comment)
Almost, but not quite, funny, considering the Guardian’s obsession with Jews and its multiple attacks on Israel every week (typically a dozen articles a week on CiF and the main pages about Jews, Israel and Judaism, almost always negative, and a few weeks ago reaching a new high of about twenty six articles in one week).
Jonathan Hoffman documented dozens of examples in his submission Antisemitism on Guardian “Comment is Free”.
So, on the one hand we have a moderated site where some effort is made to remove particularly odious comments, but on the other hand there is something about this site and its choice of topics and contributors that attracts authors and commenters who frequently compare Israelis to Nazis, come close to holocaust denial, and demonstrate all the symptoms of classic antisemitism.
One might wonder why the Guardian’s obsession with Jews, Israel, and Judaism exists. Perhaps it is best explained by this excerpt from an Interview with Robert Solomon Wistrich, Antisemitism Embedded in British Culture in which it is stated:
“In the UK the anti-Zionist narrative probably has greater legitimacy than in any other Western society. Anti-Semitism of the “anti-Zionist” variety has achieved such resonance, particularly in elite opinion, that various British media are leaders in this field. Successive British governments neither share nor have encouraged such attitudes-least of all Prime Ministers Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. They have shown concern over antisemitism and the boycott movement and tried to counteract them. However, Trotskyites who infiltrated the Labour Party and the trade unions in the 1980s have been an important factor in spreading poisonous attitudes. The BBC has also played a role in stimulating pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli attitudes over the years.”
Anyone who doubts that similar throwbacks to the 1930’s have infiltrated the Guardian need only read a few pieces by Seamus Milne or John Pilger at the Guardian’s site. This attitude lends itself to the use of familiar tropes from that period – condemnation of Israel as a “colonialist” or “imperialist” enterprise (where is the Israeli mother country or empire?), as a “fascist”, i.e., “Nazi”, state, the attempt to define Gaza as a “concentration camp” (an indirect form of holocaust denial by diminution of the real nature of the actual concentration camps) and so on and so forth. Aided and abetted by the bizarre left-wing attempt to reconcile its values with those of Islamic extremism and harness both to the attacks on Israel.
A notable example of the automatic use of Nazi analogies that pass unnoticed by the editorial staff was in the recent article by Slavoj Zizek that included the phrase “Palestinian-frei”. This brought one of the few retractions we have seen on CIF or by the Guardian:
“This article was amended on 20 August 2009. The online version originally referred to “Palestinian-frei”, while the print version had been edited to say “Palestinian-free”. This editing change should have been applied to the online version. This has now been done.”
The other hidden memes in Zizek’s article, especially the description of Gaza as a concentration camp and the smooth transition to “Palestinian-frei”, were brilliantly dissected by Judy of Adloyada in August where she points out:
“Routinely, the words “concentration camp” refer to the concentration camps run by the Nazis either directly or indirectly for the purpose of imprisoning and either preparing for or directly exterminating the Jews and the other designated groups the Nazis set out to murder or otherwise do to death. …
For a start, no concentration camp anywhere, ever, at any time has had inmates who are armed with military hardware. Let alone armed with machine guns, grenade launchers and rockets. Let alone regularly having an organised externally independently financed regime which has forces which use those arms to launch attacks on the nation supposedly imprisoning them, as well as on their own opponents. …
Because Professor Zizek then goes on to state that, by what he claims are processes of stealth, the West Bank (not, you note, Gaza) “will become Palestinian-frei”. What is this German-derived neologism but an unmistakable analogy to the Nazi policy of eliminating in its entirety the Jewish presence in any area it controlled, which it termed making it “Judenfrei” or “Judenrein”?”
But the greatest trick the Guardian has up its sleeve is the establishment of a stable of five or so “house Jews” eager to demonstrate that they, “unlike all those other Jews”, are really on the “right side” of the I/P conflict by frequently contributing articles attacking Israel. These special Jews, including a few Israelis, claim to carry the flame of Jewish Universalism which represents “true Jewish values” and which particularly requires putting an end, one way or another, to the existence of the State of Israel. They claim to speak “As-a-Jew”, therefore presenting a position unassailable by charges of antisemitism, and giving implied authority to the Guardian’s positions.
An example of the Guardian’s use of Jews to defend the indefensible analogy between Israel and Nazism is the article by Antony Lerman to explain why the Pat Oliphant cartoon that Lerman himself describes as follows is not antisemitic:
“The cartoon shows a headless Nazi-like, goose-stepping, jackbooted figure, with one arm raised and outstretched, holding a sword, and the other wheeling a head in the form of a Star of David – one side of which is a wide-open mouth, equipped with vicious teeth, about to devour a very small, fleeing refugee-like female figure holding a baby. The word “Gaza” is emblazoned on her cloak.”
Twisting and turning through a page of rather incoherent justifications and attacks against the ADL and Abe Foxman, and with a tip of the hat to another well-known fiercely anti-Israel IJV contributor to CIF, Brian Klug, he finally tries to claim that this cartoon, which he has so graphically and accurately described, is anything but antisemitic, and those claiming that it is makes it harder to defend against unspecified “genuine instances of anti-Semitism”. What else could this cartoon be but antisemitic, when Lerman himself recognizes the attempt to conflate Israel and Israeli with Nazi Germany and Nazis?
As nauseating as this attempt either to curry favor or willingness to be used as a useful idiot may be, what is worse is that these house Jews provide some of the worst examples of the use of Nazi imagery which even the Guardian would remove if written by other than a Jewish author (see the retraction relating to the Zizek article, above).
Since Seth Freedman is probably the worst offender in this respect, and also has claimed to be under contract to the Guardian (which promotes his two poorly selling books on their web site), it’s worth examining some of the excesses evident in his articles, though he is far from alone. The Guardian publishes one or two of his articles a week without removing the Nazi imagery they often contain.
Freedman’s articles demonstrate either apparent ignorance of the provenance of some of his nasty comments and the horrifying historical baggage they carry with them or, worse, the deliberate use of Nazi imagery to attract the attention he apparently craves to whip up the anti-Israel mob.
For example, in an article last week purporting to support the release of Gilad Shalit from his cruel captivity by Hamas, he uses a loaded phrase to say that Hamas can justify the cruelty of Shalit’s captivity due to Israel’s behavior – a claim he would never make in reverse:
“If Israel’s behaviour is whiter than white, it will be far harder for Palestinian radicals to justify their own illegal acts of war.”
The phrase “whiter than white” goes back to old advertisements for Persil, the laundry powder developed in the early 1900’s and its use in this sort of analogy has a long and ignoble history.
One use is connected to Nazis, perhaps buried in Freedman’s subconscious after hearing it used by adults as he grew up due to its prevalence after WW II. When Nazis were being smuggled out of Germany to work in the US or the USSR, a clean file – a “Persil” or “Persilshein” that washes everything clean – was created for them – a faked file or identity that was “whiter than white”. “Persil Germans” were rehabilitated Germans. Jokes about “Persil” have been also long been used by racists in the USA to denigrate African Americans and can be found on many racist web-sites.
Freedman’s use of Nazi imagery to describe Israelis has been common and more blatant in his other contributions to CiF. Some prior examples of his Nazi imagery whose provenance he must surely recognize are:
- the reference to Israelis ” having to don jackboots and maraud across the West Bank ” he used to compare Israeli soldiers to Nazis (Israeli soldiers of course wear no such footgear, as he well knows from his brief military service in the IDF);
- comparing Israeli immigration policy to the Hitlerian creation of a category of “untermenschen”:
“Mirroring Hitler’s assertion that anyone with at least one Jewish grandparent was to be considered untermenschen”;
- adopting the Hitlerian description of Jews having a special disease or being a virus or cancer, and transferring it to references to Israeli Jews. Change the word “Jew” to “Israeli” in the following from “The Roots of Nazi Psychology: Hitler’s Utopian Barbarism”, Jay Y. Gonen and then compare it with the two examples below:
“The discovery of the Jewish virus is one of the greatest revolutions that have taken place in the world. The battle in which we are engaged to-day is of the same sort as the battle waged during the last century, by Pasteur and Koch. How many diseases have their origin in the Jewish virus! .. We shall regain our health only by eliminating the Jew.” Adolph Hitler, Hitler’s Secret Conversations
“the malignant disease coursing through Israel’s psyche” Seth Freedman, The immeasurable toll of war
“Because that way lies a sickness as virulent and destructive to society as any strain of cancer” Seth Freedman, Two Tier Israel
The impact of this imagery, now “permitted” since it can be traced to a Jewish source, rather than an obvious antisemite, can be seen by its adoption by some who comment on the threads that accompany the articles CiF commissions or chooses to publish on request. Here is an example from the promising and quite balanced article by Ziad Asali, If you build it, the state will come, where a commenter on the associated thread compares Israeli settlers to a “tumour” and then adds in by association the common attempt on CiF to brand the IDF as “thugs” or worse and Israel as an apartheid state:
“I wish the Palestinian people well, but Netanyahu will encourage more settlers, masquerading as “natural growth” (more like a tumour!) in the West Bank. Then there are those apartheid roads that out-apartheid white-ruled South Africa, check posts, IDF thugs.” Teacup 04 Sep 09, 10:44am
While I am sure the Guardian would immediately remove the Hitler quote, the fact that it leaves Nazi imagery and phrases like “whiter than white”, or “malignant disease” and “virulent sickness” or Teacup’s “tumour”, or initially permitted Zizek’s “Palestinian-frei”, cannot be coincidental. It is reasonable to ask, therefore, if the use of these analogies is either a deliberate attempt to slip in antisemitic memes under the guise of protesting against Israeli policies – which, as is often done in Israel itself, could be legitimate without the use of these hidden memes – or is so deeply ingrained in the psyche of some contributors, commenters and editors that it passes unnoticed – except as a kind of bait that attracts and authenticates those wishing to draw the obvious false parallels such words create between Israel and Nazi Germany.
Whatever the reason, it is time for the Guardian to do something about it.
126 comments
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September 7, 2009 at 11:37 pm
JerusalemMite
A damming article indeed.
We all knew it but seeing it collected together like this paints a damming picture of The Guardian and its Trotskyite management.
September 7, 2009 at 11:45 pm
iloathetheguardian
The shitty Guardian is not going to change,they have a good thing going.But we can beat them at their own game,only by doing it better than them.
If they lie so can we,if they exaggerate then so can we.Use mockery,ridicule,cynicism,or whatever to disrupt their articles with inane posts.Nasty? Nasty is as nasty does.
September 8, 2009 at 12:27 am
JerusalemMite
One doesn’t have to lie to beat the Guardian.
Just to point out the hypocracy involved in their presentation of world events and their emphasis on the insignificant to the detriment of what is important.
If this site descended into lies, even half truths and misrepresentations, I wouldn’t post here.
September 8, 2009 at 12:37 am
Mita
The Guardian’s loss is our gain. Excellent analysis AKUS though I am sure that the writing of it was bitter and painful.
September 8, 2009 at 12:51 am
Mita
“his brief service in the military” – Is it that he does no miluim or is there more to the story?
September 8, 2009 at 1:01 am
Fairplay
A good article, AKUS.
Just one caveat : the Nazi analogy resonates most to people over 50, let’s say. People whose parents lived through the war and fought Hitler or were his helpless victims.
The Guardian’s readership is now a generation or two generations removed from all this. Hitler ( and Stalin ) are remote figures from 20th century history.
For them, the word ‘Nazi’ has lost its original resonance.
By the way, what do you think of the new Tarantino film ( ‘Inglourious Basterds’ ) where the Nazis are seen as being more heroic than the Jews ?
September 8, 2009 at 3:21 am
exiledlondoner
Hi AKUS,
While some of what you quote is clearly inflamatory, I’d like to pick up on a couple of the examples you give/
Teacup’s use of “tumour” clearly was aimed at settlement growth – not at the settlers or stll less, Jews in general. I see no reason why this is not a perfectly acceptable analogy to make, and if such words were to be moderated, then criticism of the settlement program would become impossible.
Zizek’s use of “Palestinian-frei” (which I don’t remember) is more complex. Did it come before of after Netanyahu’s use of “Judenfrei”? I don’t think we can let ourselves get into a position in which one side is free to use Nazi analogies – however bizarre – while the other isn’t. Israeli’s are not Nazis, but then neither are Palestinians.
Regarding your comparison of Seth’s words to those of Adolf Hitler – that’s just a hyperbolic smear – Hitler regarded Jews as a people as a “cancer” – Seth clearly speaks of what he sees as a cancer within Israeli society (one that feeds on Israelis). Your attempt to conflate the two is a gross misreading of his words.
September 8, 2009 at 3:32 am
John
Good article Akus.
Let us not forget the Guardian’s role in Churchill’s playlet – Seven Jewish Children – including Michael Billington explaining to his readers: “But Churchill also shows us how Jewish children are bred to believe in the “otherness” of Palestinians”
And here is one of my favourites – Seth being too kool for skool and donning his IamtheonlyonewhounderstandsJudaism in a garbled and almost incomprehensible article – ‘The lesson of Purim’:
“Of course antisemitism is the greatest danger to a semite, just as antidisestablishmentarianism was the mortal enemy of the disestablishmentarianists”
“danger to a semite”!
September 8, 2009 at 3:34 am
John
Good article Akus.
Let us not forget the Guardian’s – how shall I put this? – proactive role in Churchill’s playlet – Seven Jewish Children – including Michael Billington explaining to his readers: “But Churchill also shows us how Jewish children are bred to believe in the “otherness” of Palestinians”. I hope Churchill paid the Guardian the 10% agent fee.
And here is one of my favourites – Seth being too kool for skool and donning his IamtheonlyonewhounderstandsJudaism in a garbled and almost incomprehensible article – ‘The lesson of Purim’:
“Of course antisemitism is the greatest danger to a semite, just as antidisestablishmentarianism was the mortal enemy of the disestablishmentarianists”
“danger to a semite”!
September 8, 2009 at 3:35 am
John
Apologies for the double posting – distracted by my breakfast!
September 8, 2009 at 3:38 am
Mita
Exile:
Your attempt to conflate the two is a gross misreading of his words.
————————
September 8, 2009 at 4:04 am
Mita
Exile I think that your excusing of it all is a rather gross attempt to distort a pattern that emerges. One single mention obviously is just an image, go further than that and you begin to see the ducks waddle up tamely into line to be shot
September 8, 2009 at 4:39 am
Teacup
Exiled Londoner,
Thanks. You have explained it exactly as I meant it. I have said to AKUS himself that the rock (hardly a chip) on his shoulder biases his view points rather heavily. Consider the following expression – “Everything looks yellow to one who is jaundiced”. Any objective person reading that sentence would assume that “yellow” refers to the symptom of jaundice, one’s skin and the white of one’s eyes turn pale yellow. ASPs (Anti-Semitism smellers pursuivant – terminology stolen from the Black Adder series and modified) would probably leap to the conclusion that “yellow” referred to the armbands that Jews in Germany were forced to wear!!
September 8, 2009 at 4:41 am
HarryTheHorse
All inappropriate comparisons to the Third Reich and Nazism are pretty offensive and stupid. Personally I quite like to see the moderators on CIF take a hard line with all such nonsense, which ever side of the argument it comes from. That means getting tough with the idiots to go on about ‘Islamofascism’ as much as those who compare Israel with the Third Reich. Why today, we see this gen:
at the moment though, i’m sure that israeli students would feel a bit unwelcome on a lot of european campuses (so far, so 1939)…but only coz they’re ‘zionist’ of course….nuffink more sinister at all, straight up guv
As though the situation were remotely comparable to the run up to the Second World War. And we have Netanyahu a couple of years ago claiming tha Israel’s position was comparable to Czechoslovakia’s in 1938. Other than being extremely disrespectful to the suffering of the Czechs during the war, he simply proved what a tit he is.
The only thing that can be compared to the Nazis are other Nazis and there probably aren’t more than a few tens of thousands of those left in the world, scattered in Neo-nazi groups across the world. The rest is BS.
September 8, 2009 at 4:42 am
Teacup
AKUS,
I am sorry about your being banned. For what it is worth, I have posted a protest on a thread where Berchmans brought it up.
Now, on some thread, you called me a “little racist”. Please do clarify – am I a dimunitive person who is racist (to an unknown degree) or a person of unkown dimensions who is racist to a small degree? Are there degrees of racism?
September 8, 2009 at 5:46 am
Ariadne
HarryTheHorse
“As though the situation were remotely comparable to the run up to the Second World War.”
How is the Jew-hatred not comparable?
September 8, 2009 at 5:51 am
Jonathan Hoffman
Great article AKUS
September 8, 2009 at 6:36 am
exiledlondoner
Mita,
“Your attempt to conflate the two is a gross misreading of his words.”
I was attempting to ‘unconflate’ the two (if that is a word?).
“I think that your excusing of it all is a rather gross attempt to distort a pattern that emerges.”
What pattern? To take the first example, Teacup clearly described settlement growth as a ‘tumour’ – That would seem to be a perfectly normal use of the English language to describe something that is growing, seemingly unstoppable, and (in teacup’s view) malignant.
I share Akus’s distaste for lazy and offensive Nazi analogies, but as someone who’s native language is English, I’m not going to allow anyone to circumscribe its normal usage for political reasons.
The settlements are a cancer – terrorism is a cancer, anti-semitism is a cancer, extremism (both Islamic and Jewish) is a cancer.
September 8, 2009 at 7:46 am
HarryTheHorse
How is the Jew-hatred not comparable?
Er, because it is plainly not. In 1939 there were Jews being forced to clean the pavement with toothbrushes. Krystalnacht was in 1938. Tens of thousands of Jews, intellectuals, homosexuals and leftists were imprisoned in concentration camps. Germany was a totalitarian state. None of that is true today. Anyone who claims that anti-semitism is as rife in Europe today as it was in 1939 is as stupid and dishonest as anyone who claims that Israel is comparable to the Third Reich.
September 8, 2009 at 7:53 am
HarryTheHorse
What pattern? To take the first example, Teacup clearly described settlement growth as a ‘tumour’ – That would seem to be a perfectly normal use of the English language to describe something that is growing, seemingly unstoppable, and (in teacup’s view) malignant
And also plays on all kinds of historical tropes of anti-semitism. I can’t see how the use of such a word can further debate in any meaningful way.
September 8, 2009 at 7:59 am
Mita
I sympathise with Teacup who finds it uncomfortable to find words quoted out of the context of the argument. However it is the associations we have in our minds from previous usages that cause us to make comparisons and this is the pattern discussed.
iThe settlements are a cancer – terrorism is a cancer, anti-semitism is a cancer, extremism (both Islamic and Jewish) is a cancer.
Cancer is a cancer – the examples you and AKUS gave are metaphoric usages of the word.
What relevance is it that your native language is English except that you should say “someone whose native language is English” if you are emphasizing purity of usage.
September 8, 2009 at 8:05 am
blue
Small, fast post which I hope gets through as I’m on the move.
Always great to read anything from AKUS, even when I do not agree entirely, I have to pause for thought. Hope to contribute something worthwhile later.
Hi @Teacup – Berchmans and a few more should hang their heads in shame over AKUS’s banning which is so questionable under the circumstances, CIF should consider an independent inquiry into the bannings’ of specific posters who just happen to be Jews – There’s are some facinating comparable posts/posters a non partisan eye might well question.
I don’t believe you are at all antisemitic and somewhere on this blog there’s a post from me that says so., I should have added that anyone brought up in India will have a very different perception of antisemitism than a European would or at least, should.
That said, it must be quite something to be able to see what is written about you here and be afforded the right to redress anything you disagree with or find offensive. No such luck (was intended!!) for those of us libelled, smeared and the butt of salacious comment on Blogging New Horizons, eh, Teacup!
September 8, 2009 at 8:09 am
AKUS
I am off to work but popped in to see if there were any responses to this article. I don’t have time now for in-depth replies, so a few quickies:
There is a constant use of Nazi analogies directed at Israelis, Israel, and Jews on the CIF website. That cannot be denied, and I have cited only a few, bearing in mind people’s willingness to read a long article being limited, and it took a long time to even cut this down to its current length. Even where the actual analogy does not include the words “Nazi”, or Nazism”, the provenance can be traced back immediately to actual Nazi slurs (probably a better word applies , but I’m in a hurry) such as the use of “virus”, “cancer” etc.
The second point I make is that CIF is itself aware of this, and removes the most blatant or obvious comments of this sort – but leaves in place many less obvious ones that represent a sort of unconscious acceptance of those comparisons, and I gave examples that I think you cannot argue about. They use Jewish writers on the fringes of Jewish communities to try to provide a gloss of respectability to these slurs. I cannot think of any other group that CIF would allow to be described as having a special sickness, or malaise, etc., and it is precisely the propagation of a belief in a “special sickness” which was at the heart of the Nazi campaign against Jews in the 1930’s
Fairplay – actually, you’d be surprised, I think to see how many of those commenting on CIF, and certainly those contributing, are baby-boomers. They – and I – were not around during WW II, but they grew up in the post-war period. Check moeran’s bio, and talknic’s (whne he next reappears as something else) – both make no secret of being in their 60’s. Moreover, at any age, one can read, and should read, history.
Exiled – Appreciate but disagree with your comments. I spent years in high-school and later at college being taught that one can read a great deal into a writer’s sub-conscious and weltanschauung by examining the language that creeps into their writings unaware (you probably know the sort of thing: “Analyze Dickens’ attitudes to women through the character of Little Dorrit”, etc.). I think if you substitute any other nation or people for Israel or Jews in the examples I provided, which are a few of myriads that have appeared on CIF you would agree that the analogies are expressive of an unconscious – or conscious, in some cases – bias. I have yet to see, for argument’s sake, since I’m dealing with a British newspaper, something like “The BNP represents the malignant disease coursing through Britain’s psyche” I think you would dismiss something as stupid, biased, and really actually evil, as that, out of hand.
Teacup – we’ve crossed swords before, but I appreciate your appearing here. I think you live in India – would you accept a statement like “India will encourage more settlers, masquerading as “natural growth” (more like a tumour!) in Kashmir” at its face value, or would you not agree that there is an attempt to describe Indians (or Pakistanis, if you are Pakistani) as a “cancerous tumour”?
Thanks for supporting my return – as someone who will have nothing to do with Twitter, I have been surprised to see via comments on this web-site that I have a number of “followers”, even those who vehemently disagree with me, which is fine – its a free world out there. In the unlikely event that CIF reinstates me, I would be happy to post there again. Some seem to have found my comments worthy, whether they agree or disagree with them.
CIF should realize that its a big world out there, and they can either have people like me pissing out of the tent or into it.
September 8, 2009 at 8:27 am
Ariadne
HarryThe Horse
And what do you imagine the Arab dictatorships would be doing if Israel had not beaten them in defensive wars?
Jew-hatred is not limited to what you describe.
September 8, 2009 at 8:42 am
Louise
If you are Jewish and have been banned by CIF, please tell us. I suspect many more Jews than non-Jews have been banned. That would be shabby – to say the least.
September 8, 2009 at 9:00 am
HarryTheHorse
And what do you imagine the Arab dictatorships would be doing if Israel had not beaten them in defensive wars?
I thought that we were talking about anti-semitism in Europe? What do you think would have happened?
September 8, 2009 at 9:08 am
HarryTheHorse
If you are Jewish and have been banned by CIF, please tell us. I suspect many more Jews than non-Jews have been banned. That would be shabby – to say the least
It would depend on the reasons why they had been banned. I try to avoid the Israel threads on CIF as they seem to be a cauldron in which anti-semites, anti-arab racists muslim haters and the plain mad come to spew insults and accusations at each other. It’s the about the most unedifying spectacle in the blogosphere. I think the Guardian should cut its losses and not host threads on Israel/Palestine; or alternatively switch to pre-moderation, though that would be pretty expensive, I should think.
September 8, 2009 at 10:07 am
JerusalemMite
HarryTheHorse. – I think the Guardian should cut its losses and not host threads on Israel/Palestine; or alternatively switch to pre-moderation, though that would be pretty expensive, I should think.
A sensible conclusion since their moderation is used to prevent the discussion from consolidation and anti CIF world view.
Not likely as the number of threads to an I/P thread encourages advertisers.
The Guardian is not what it was 30 years ago. The present management seems to be a group of extreme leftist orientated persons who are way outside the acceptable general leftist orientation. They are an embarrassment to sane leftists and should be removed and replaced by those more representative of the ‘Left’. I suspect that CP Scott would be writhing in his grave at what the Guardian has degenerated into.
September 8, 2009 at 11:48 am
„Anti-Zionismus“ in England « Nach der Wahrheit graben
[...] Jedoch haben in 80er Jahren Trotzkisten die Labour Party und die Gewerkschaften unterwandert und spielen eine wichtige Rolle bei der Verbreitung dieser gifitgen Einstellungen. Auch die BBC hat ihren Teil dazu beigetragen, in dem sie pro-palästinensische und anti-israelische Haltungen über Jahre gefördert haben.“ via cifwatch [...]
September 8, 2009 at 12:14 pm
exiledlondoner
Hi AKUS,
I think if you forget the textual analysis and subconscious meanings for a moment, you might see that teacup, far from borrowing a delegitimising Nazi mantra, actually meant what he wrote literally – that the settlements were a tumour in the region.
What do tumours do? They grow and suck the life out of their host. Whether you regard the host as being the West Bank, hopes of a viable Palestinian state, or the peace process, in teacup’s analysis (and mine) the settlement program does just that.
You might not agree with the analysis, but given that this is the analysis (and hardly a contraversial one – many friends of Israel would agree), Teacup’s use of the simale seems nigh on flawless.
Be careful not to be seen to call for the outlawing of vigorous debate about Israel, because that will do nothing for your cause. Teacup has said nothing wrong, is not an anti-semitic poster, and his presence on a site that claims to out anti-semites says more about the site, than it does about him.
I would guess that for many on CIF, the very fact that teacup is featured here would tell them all they need to know about CIFWatch.
September 8, 2009 at 12:32 pm
exiledlondoner
Mita,
“I sympathise with Teacup who finds it uncomfortable to find words quoted out of the context of the argument. However it is the associations we have in our minds from previous usages that cause us to make comparisons and this is the pattern discussed.”
So you accept that it was taken out of context?
One thing I would suggest is that the link between criticism of the settlement program (hardly an unusual occurence, even amongst Israelis), and slurs against Jews or Israelis in general, is being made in the mind of the reader, rather than the writer.
Yes, I understand why there should be sensitivity to delegitimising and demonising language aimed at Israel, but the settlement program is not Israel – it is contraversial amongst Israelis too.
I would be interested to know how many Jews or Israelis who oppose the settlement program read teacup’s words in that way? It seems that you first have to regard them as a legitimate Israeli venture before you can make the necessary link to find the words offensive
“Cancer is a cancer – the examples you and AKUS gave are metaphoric usages of the word.”
They are, and so did teacup (with tumour) and Seth (with cancer).
“What relevance is it that your native language is English except that you should say “someone whose native language is English” if you are emphasizing purity of usage.”
There is little purity in the English language – that’s what makes it so vibrant. Anyone who has any experience of one of the ‘academy’ languages like French or Spanish, should know how English’s ever-changing usage has many advantages.
My point was just that having been through the ‘politically correct’ years, many English speakers are not particularly tolorent of those who try to proscribe usage for political reasons. English is very democratic – all you need to gain acceptance is to get people to use it. The strongest force in English at the moment is probably black American culture – not university grammarians, and the extensive borrowing over the last century from India, the Americas, Africa, Australasia and even Yiddish is a joy.
September 8, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Observer
Teacup sounds very familiar with western history and culture, and so I question whther the anti-Semitic words and stances she adopts are all that innocent and unconscious.
September 8, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Pro-Zionist
The Guardianistas continue the “Jews – disease – vermin” rhetoric at this very moment, here:
The biggest killer disease in the middle east is the IDF
The Guardian is degenerating into an echo of the grotesque analogies used by the Nazis themselves.
September 8, 2009 at 12:55 pm
JerusalemMite
Exiled. reading your comments, my jaw drops lower and lower.
I feel that if you were cognizant in the 1930s, you would be writing to excuse Hitlers anti semitic statements suggesting that he was just cross feeling that Jews excelled in so many of the admired professions in Germany.
September 8, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Demeter
AKUS this is an excellent analysis. I have read your posts on CiF and they are always measured and well-argued.
Your point about the “house-Jews” is particularly well made. They more than anyone else highlight the too-ready conflation between “Jewish” and “Israeli” which is CiF’s stock in trade (and which, of course, it parrots mindlessly from the Islamists who write for it, who hate Jews as much as Israel and often don’t care to distinguish between the two).
For any who wander by, I suggest a little exercise: Try substituting “Martian” for “Jew” or “Jewish” or “Israeli” and report back here to see if you get the same rush of excitement which you get from bashing Jews and Israelis, and which is thoroughly hate-driven.
Of course what you write will be nonsensical, but then it so often is.
September 8, 2009 at 1:13 pm
SilverTrees
Exiled, it’s sick of you to stand up for Teacup’s offensiveness and if he meant it literally then it’s even more offensive. Would you react so readily if anyone called Hamas a tumour (assuming of course that the post made the CiF page?) Hamas is a cancer all right – and we can say so here – to the Palestinian people who trusted it to serve their interests. Instead it leeches from them and saps their strength and sacrifices their children.
And however unpopular the settlement issue is among Israelis, I doubt whether any of them (with the exception of those like Seth Freedman) refer to them as cancers. It is an emotive, negatively charged word and the fact that it is so readily allowed by CiF moderators and used by posters there proves AKUS’ points given CiFs visceral hatred of Israel
September 8, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Melchior
The Guardian plays a devious game. Its own I/P reporting is disgracefully and simplistically sympathetic to the plight of one side and dismissive of the legitimate needs of the other.
It then also hosts numerous contributors who take full advantage of the free and open Israeli press to use items of news critical of Israeli policy but who gloss over Palestinian failings, at best attributing ultimate blame even for them to the Israelis.
In hosting so many anti-Israel JEWISH writers it subtly promotes the ‘good-Jew’ – ‘bad Jew’ test (are you critical of the state of Israel? – you can enter decent society – or do you broadly support it?
- you are contemptible beyond redemption). No other race, religious group, class is put to such a test. It would be rightly seen as racist inflammatory and plain unfair.
The G thus both panders to the wholly one-eyed view of the Israel – Arab conflict so lamentably fashionable in some pseudo-leftist circles and also wishes to attract new readership that wants to soak such bias. Hosting the Churchill play was the utter dispicable nadir. And then it throws its hands up in sham horror when so many antisemites flock to CiF.
Just when was it exactly that the Guardian sold its soul? (and its brain?)
September 8, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Pro-Zionist
At the same time as Exiled insists upon free speech for critics of Israel, he wants the critics themselves (such as Teacup) to be immune from criticism.
What hypocrisy.
September 8, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Mita
Exile: I accept that Teacup feels uncomfortable seeing what s/he said out of context of the argument and being left with the starkness of the kind of expression used.
Cancer is not a disease you can live with or alongside. It is neither a romantic nor a sympathetic condition as those who have experienced it personally or in their families know. The use of this image is as extreme as the disease described and I should imagine that that is why those of us whose country is libelled by it are so appalled by its use by Seth, who is someone who is undoubtedly aware of our sensitivities and our feelings.
You ask in whose (not who’s) mind the connection lies – well it depends on how sensitive to words you are. I suppose someone with no delicacy or awareness of nuance can use any form of words and mean nothing: but then whatever they say will be meaningless. If the intention is to wound the weapon is there if you have some skill, especially if you have ambitions to have your words taken seriously.
All these images may be translated equally into Hebrew and lose not a whit of their strength or their shock value – or into any other language. English is not unique in the values of its emotional loading.
September 8, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Pro-Zionist
Melchior
The G thus both panders to the wholly one-eyed view
Correct. Contrary to its belief, the Guardian is not holy but does have one “i” (and quite a few dogmatic “ayes”).
September 8, 2009 at 2:19 pm
sababa
AKUS, what a shame that you’ve been banned! But good that you haven’t been silenced!
Nice to see the exiledlondoner to be such a chevalier and come to the defence of teacup, but I’m doubtful that she deserves it. The point is exactly as other here have said: it’s not necessarily just a single comment, it’s also the accumulated comments that count, and teacup is for sure always there when it’s time for some Israel-bashing, and she always merrily joins in. Yeah, yeah, it’s just “criticism” of Israel, but it’s curious that teacup, who is from India, never sees a reason to draw some comparisons: her country has built a wall that dwarfs Israel’s wall, and that causes quite a bit of hardship — at least this is what a recent Cif-article said… and then, of course, there was the partition, almost at the same time as in Palestine, and there were a few million more refugees, with some 2 million or so who were killed, I think; and one can’t really say the whole thing was a big success story. But somehow, this is a perspective teacup never ever mentions, she’s just contend to “criticise” Israel. Good old teacup, so greatly concerned about the state of human rights everywhere!!!
From what I read on this site, I think the important point is really that the obsessive focus on Israel is simply already questionable in itself. If it is about people suffering, the I-P conflict surely ranks only towards the end of a list that would probably have to start with Congo, or perhaps with the plight of women in the Muslim world; and if it is about how political explosive an issue it is, again, how about Pakistan, a nuclear-armed state that is about to disintegrate? How about a repressive mullah-regime with nuclear arms, as we may soon have in Iran? How about all the indoctrination financed by Saudi petro dollars? 9/11, which is coming up, had nothing to do with the Palestinian issue.
September 8, 2009 at 2:42 pm
peterthehungarian
Hi Exiled
I really hate cancer from obvious reasons. This means that if this sickness could be eliminated I would feel real happiness and joy.
I can’t say the same of my enemies. The huge majority of them have been put on their place by their history, birthplace, lack of possibility for a decent education, real or imagined grievances caused by other groups of humans, undoubtedly sometimes by Israelis. Winning the battle by “my side” would make me naturally happy, but I couldn’t never enjoy and never wish the physical elimination of my opponents. During wars people must to kill each other simply in order to survive but seeing dead enemy combatants make you understand very easily that they are not viruses, but humans like yourself and believe me that only people sick of hate could enjoy such a scenery.
This is the reason that I consider the use of the cancer (virus, vermin etc) allegory regarding any group of humans absolutely unacceptable. Saying that malaria is the cancer of Africa (it is) I imply that I would happily agree to annihilate every one of the anopheles mosquitoes its main transmitters.
Naturally there are enemies who are not in the above category, they are the political, ideological, religious leaders who never would go to fight themselves but to send others to put themselves in harm’s way. They are the preachers of hate, their self-righteous and sanctimonious apologists and supporters (you can find innumerable of them on CIF. One can’t excuse them with lack of education or their place of living, birthplace or environment etc. They can generate some stronger emotions in me but I wouldn’t describe my feelings as hate, only deep disgust. I never would call them cockroaches, viruses etc, allegories used by some contributors and commenters on CIF and tolerated by the moderators if it is directed to pro-Israeli opponents. BTW one of the main champions of this style is your beloved LaRitournelle.
September 8, 2009 at 3:15 pm
exiledlondoner
JerusalemMite,
“I feel that if you were cognizant in the 1930s, you would be writing to excuse Hitlers anti semitic statements suggesting that he was just cross feeling that Jews excelled in so many of the admired professions in Germany.”
Why would you feel that? So any refusal to join in the witch-hunt makes me a Nazi apologist? Nice!
SilverTrees,
“Exiled, it’s sick of you to stand up for Teacup’s offensiveness and if he meant it literally then it’s even more offensive.”
I’m not standing up for offensiveness – I’m saying that it isn’t offensive.
“Would you react so readily if anyone called Hamas a tumour (assuming of course that the post made the CiF page?)”
I’ve called Hamas worse myself.
“Hamas is a cancer all right – and we can say so here – to the Palestinian people who trusted it to serve their interests. Instead it leeches from them and saps their strength and sacrifices their children.”
So you do exactly what you criticise teacup for doing – and what he didn’t actually do at all – call human beings a cancer. He called the settlements a tumour – not the settlers.
Mita,
“Cancer is not a disease you can live with or alongside. It is neither a romantic nor a sympathetic condition as those who have experienced it personally or in their families know. The use of this image is as extreme as the disease described and I should imagine that that is why those of us whose country is libelled by it are so appalled by its use by Seth, who is someone who is undoubtedly aware of our sensitivities and our feelings.”
Would you have a problem if I described gang violence or drug addiction as a cancer in British society?
My point is that, in the UK at least, this is a perfectly normal way of describing any growing intractable problem. I’ve even heard people say that jealousy (for example) is a cancer in their marriage.
Peter,
“This is the reason that I consider the use of the cancer (virus, vermin etc) allegory regarding any group of humans absolutely unacceptable. Saying that malaria is the cancer of Africa (it is) I imply that I would happily agree to annihilate every one of the anopheles mosquitoes its main transmitters.”
I agree with every word – to say something is a cancer implies that you want to eradicate it completely, and I agree with what you say about its use in dehumanising people (we saw it in Rwanda with “cockroaches”).
Teacup said the settlements were a tumour – not the settlers, and not the people behind the settlement program.
For teacup, and for me, the settlements are a tumour, just as Malaria is for you. The disagreement is what we think of the settlement program – the row about the words used are no more than a smoke screen to attack teacup’s views on the settlements.
If posters disagree that the settlements are a growing intractable problem, then they can say so – they don’t need to twist his choice of words.
September 8, 2009 at 4:00 pm
peterthehungarian
Teacup
I posted a question on CIF to you but naturally it has been deleted immediately, maybe this could be a very good occasion to get an answer:
You devote a lot of energy and time on CIF to attack Israeli policies, actions and persons using very well constructed sentences, sounding polite and moderate (but reading them a second time more thoughtfully one can see the vileness in some of them). In according to yourself you are an Indian citizen living in India…
where the caste system is the basic building stone of the society,
where during one month more children die from illnesses eliminated in other places (like Gaza for example) or malnutrition than during all of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict,
where millions of millions could envy the quality of life and freedom of the Palestinians living under Israeli occupation,
where the army occupies vast territories (hundreds of times greater than the WB and Gaza) and where the majority wants independence,
where the population of these territories (their number is much greater than the Palestinians) are permanently abused by members of the army and police with total impunity and without a blip on the radar of any internal of external human rights organization, even without any number of condemning articles on CIF,
where the spread (and not cancer!) of state and private, political and financial corruption is simply second only or identical to some of the most primitive African societies, and this corrupt behavior involves (and not infects!) almost everybody who has any power, etc,etc
If you devote let’s say an average ten minutes every day on CIF criticizing Israel living far away from it and equipped with very limited knowledge about the situation there I guess you must spend minimum 100 hours daily from your free time criticizing your own country, government, society and people.
Or maybe not?
Could it be that you have some obsession criticizing only Israel and Israelis when the same time your own country is incomparably worse? Could you explain your motives?
I really would like to know about them.
Thanks in advance for your answer.
September 8, 2009 at 4:20 pm
peterthehungarian
Exiled
“Teacup said the settlements were a tumour – not the settlers, and not the people behind the settlement program.”
You always warn people to put things in context (sometimes even you are correct). Please try to do the same with Teacup’s posting.
Using the tumour/cancer expression (any incurable illnesses) implies that you want to erase it together with all its agents (viruses, abnormal cells whatever) at any price. Using these expressions on Jews or other groups of people whith comparable history is not the same like saying that drug abuse is a cancer of the society. Using instead of illness is more appropriate. Saying the jealousy is a cancer in their marriage is simply a stupid mixed metaphor, doesnt imply the elimination of anybody.
September 8, 2009 at 4:38 pm
1peter
The only time I have ever thought of a tumor as being a good thing.
Settlers and Settlements are the strength of Israel, living in the heartland and establishing homes right where they belong.
Judea and Samaria, this is Israel.
Hevron, Shechem, Kever Rachel, this is our history this is where we’re from.
Yerushalaim? What embodies Judiasm and Israel more than Yerushalaim?
Settlements, the word that arabist apologists love to spit out, a misnomer if there ever was one, as the Jewish cities, towns and kibbutzim, home to 500,000 and growing are right where they belong, at the source.
Do I expect teacup or the pilpulist to understand?
no.
Do I care?
no.
Teacup and the bilbulist can waste their time fixing the problems Zimbabwe, figuring out ways to feed and clothe people their to their heart’s content. They can do the same for any of the Arab countries that are in dire need of their “expertise”.
The “settlers” are some of the best and brightest, entering the elite units of the IDF, they oversaw disengagement despite it being against their personal principles, unlike the refuseniks from the bubble.
September 8, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Mita
1peter there are those in the bubble as you call it that give as much and perhaps even occasionally more than those in Judah and Shomron. Don’t choose one. Don’t slight the rest. There is more than enough division as it is.
September 8, 2009 at 5:21 pm
1peter
Mita,
I would have hoped that you got my point, which while its a generalization, is valid.
I referred to the refuseniks from the bubble, not the people in the bubble.
September 8, 2009 at 5:38 pm
SilverTrees
“..I’m not standing up for offensiveness – I’m saying that it isn’t offensive. .”
You really do come across as preternaturally insensitive exiled or deliberately offensive and combative yourself. It’s probably a combination.
Read PetertheHungarian’s posts again. Think hard about the connotative meaning of “cancer” for Joe or Jane Public and come back here and convince me that it isn’t offensive to refer to settlements in Israel as tumours especially within the context of the Israel/Jew-hating CiF discourse.
You are of course entitled to your opinion however ignorant or lacking in sensitivity it may be.
And, yes, it’s a moot point so far as I am concerned as to whether Hamas are human beings as civilised people define them; any people who indoctrinate their children into glorifying murder and violent death by wanting to become suicide bombers don’t deserve to be called human beings. The Palestinian people deserve much, much better.
And Teacup, I would be interested in your answer to PetertheHungarian’s points above.
sababa I quite agree as regards the accumulation of hatred in comments on CiF.
September 8, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Demeter
SilverTrees, you say that Exiled is entitled to his opinions, however lacking in sensitivity they may be, but for myself I’d prefer it if he aired them elsewhere; perhaps somewhere they would be more appreciated like Comment is Free where almost every third comment is calculated to cause offence and gets recommendations galore.
Still, he has some uses. The hits to CiFWatch’s threads must have rocketed because of his equivalent of verbal diarrhea.
Keep on keeping on Exiled. Even if you do talk tosh for the most part. You are helping to make CiFWatch famous.
September 8, 2009 at 5:50 pm
HarryTheHorse
A sensible conclusion since their moderation is used to prevent the discussion from consolidation and anti CIF world view
I have no idea what an ‘anti-CIF world view’ might be, as just about any opinion under the sun is aired on some CIF forum or other. And I don’t recognise your characterisation of the Guardian as populated by ‘extreme leftist orientated persons’. The Guardian’s sin here is one of omission not of commission. It permits two groups of ugly bigots to brawl on its pages and that does its reputation no good at all.
September 8, 2009 at 5:51 pm
1peter
AKUS,
its a very nice pristine bilingual keyboard.
September 8, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Mita
Exile why do you battle the point so hard? There are no prizes for winning. You don’t mind calling manifestations in your culture cancers: that is your privilege. We have made it clear that expressions of that sort awaken dark memories in us. Bow out gracefully, for once. Understand that in an exchange such as this you don’t have to challenge all comers but you can learn and contribute as you participate
It is the adult thing to do.
September 8, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Ariadne
exiledlondoner
“My point is that, in the UK at least, this is a perfectly normal way of describing any growing intractable problem. I’ve even heard people say that jealousy (for example) is a cancer in their marriage.”
I don’t know what company you keep but I don’t find that description at all normal usage.
September 8, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Demeter
Ariadne I quite agree. Exiled has been in the company of CiFers for too long.
I am sorry to be gross, but what are the odds that exiled will soon disappear so far up his own backside that we will only be able see the soles of his feet?
September 8, 2009 at 6:26 pm
SilverTrees
Demeter – you can’t offend exiled. To feel offended a person has to have to have some sensitivity. Judging by his posts here exiled has had a sensitivity bypass
September 8, 2009 at 6:32 pm
AKUS
I will try to reply to any new comments directed at me later tonight, or any that need a reply IMO, but a couple of things stand out:
Exiled – I was not picking on Teacup specifically, though its not difficult to find similar comments by her, it simply was one of the most recent I found.
Had she said “the settlements are like a bulging tumour in the WB”, it might be possible to dance around the hidden message which she may not realize she is communicating, but what she actually said was that the settlers are like a tumour, which is a comment directed at those people, not their actions nor the geography.
—–
Generally responding to the comments here (thanks to all those, pro and con for responding – it makes for a good debate) and to move the spotlight away from Teacup, since its not my intent to focus on any one person but to illustrate the way the Guardian has permitted the creation of an environment that fosters this kind of thinking and writing, here’s another comment using the “disease analogy” by someone else, that I picked up in seconds just by scanning the Nimir Sultany thread today:
bass46 08 Sep 09, 1:53pm (about 8 hours ago)
“…The biggest killer disease in the middle east is the IDF …”
Next, here is an example of the “ethnic cleansing analogy” from the same thread. The message you are supposed to receive is that Israelis are like Nazis/Hutus/Bosnian Serbs or whoever you choose as ethnic cleansers – take your pick:
CtrlAltDlt 08 Sep 09, 1:34pm posted a comment widely circulated on the Internet that uses an out-of-context phrase uttered by Moshe Dayan and manipulated by Chomsky for effect (“we have no solution, you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads”). Chomsky ignored Peres’ rebuttal (“We need to consider how to maintain Israel’s moral status, and let’s not ignore that”) which as a consequence appears nowhere on the Internet except at the rebuttal at http://www.volokh.com/posts/1188228025.shtml )
Chomsky cited his own manipulated citation in an interview in 1997 in Ha’Aretz. Notice the use of an Israeli (Ha’Aretz)/Jewish (Chomsky) angle to give it the kind of credence in anti-Israeli circles that is very typical of CIF today, and how eagerly this one partial sentence is picked up and circulated endlessly among those wishing to accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing.
You may wonder what this has to do with the topic in hand, but at the time I write this the faked citation still stands on the Sultany thread even though another poster has provided a link (http://www.volokh.com/posts/1188228025.shtml ) to the rebuttal referred to above that demonstrates that it is Chomsky’s manipulated creation and should therefore be removed.
47 people have “recommended” this faked citation, which is indicative of the fact that these analogies and forgeries are well-accepted by the Guardian’s readers, and tolerated by the Guardian itself because the idea that Israel is engaged in Nazi-like ethnic cleansing, has been accepted as part of the anti-Israeli narrative, which a moment’s thought would reveal as so obviously absurd. After all, if the rapidly growing populations of Palestinians in Gaza and the WB, and the Israeli Arabs, have been “cleansed”, who exactly is Israel “persecuting”?
Just by the way, for those who can read the full text of the interview in Hebrew, note that Chomsky immediately after the fake Dayan quote claims the same dubious “ethnic cleansing” approach is part of America’s approach to world affairs, but I have not seen that part of the interview appear on the web following the faked Dayan quote (I don’t know if the Hebrew will appear correctly, here’s a shot at it):
סדר כזה עולה בקנה
אחד עם המדיניות האמריקאית בכל העולם, ובלי שום ספק ארה”ב גם
אינה מגלה טריטוריה חדשה.
September 8, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Ariadne
Pro-Zionist
In that horrible article you pointed to a comment from I found another that presents a fake Dayan quote among its other filth:
CtrlAltDlt
08 Sep 09, 1:34pm (about 10 hours ago)
After the 1967 land grab, defence minister Moshe Dayan’s said that we must tell the Palestinians that,
“we have no solution, you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads”
This does a pretty good job of explaining Israels foreign policy towards the Palestinians from inception, to the present day.
-
It may be a Chomsky falsehood. It exists in no reputable source on the internet.
It certainly does not fit with the following:
The Lie:
“Much is made in US propaganda about Israel’s eagerness to make peace after the 1967 war… in August 1967, Yigal Allon had advanced his ‘Allon plan,’ which became official policy a year later… No other Israeli initiatives are known… The terms ‘territorial compromise’ and ‘land for peace’ are used to refer to one or another version of the Allon plan, always rejecting entirely the Palestinian right to self-determination.”251
The Truth:
In July 1967, Prime Minister Levi Eshkol publicly confirmed Israel’s readiness to establish a Palestinian state. Similar ideas were voiced by Yigal Allon, Yitzhak Rabin and Moshe Dayan.252
In January 1976, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin considered another plan for a Palestinian state. This was supported by Golda Meir, Yigal Allon and Ariel Sharon.253
251 “Middle East Diplomacy: Continuities and Changes,” Z Magazine, December 1991.
252 Reuven Pedatzur, “Coming Back Full Circle: The Palestinian Option in 1967,” Middle East Journal, Spring 1995, pp273-6, 278; see also Washington Post, July 6, 1967.
253 Avraham Wachman, “A Peace Plan,” The New Republic, September 5, 1988; Jerusalem Post, July 27, 1990. At this time “Sharon agreed to the transfer of the entire West Bank to Palestinian sovereignty on condition that all security arrangements be left in the hands of Israel”: Uzi Benziman, Sharon: An Israeli Caesar (Robson Books, 1985), p194.
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/chomsky/200chomskylies.pdf
September 8, 2009 at 7:36 pm
SilverTrees
AKUS: “…47 people have “recommended” this faked citation, which is indicative of the fact that these analogies and forgeries are well-accepted by the Guardian’s readers, and tolerated by the Guardian itself because the idea that Israel is engaged in Nazi-like ethnic cleansing, has been accepted as part of the anti-Israeli narrative, which a moment’s thought would reveal as so obviously absurd…”
This is because it suits the sort of people CiF attracts to believe this poisonous rubbish. It feeds some sort of animus deep down in them, which is really sick. Let’s face it, AKUS, posters who are actually well-informed about what is going on in the Middle East, rather than who get their information from CiF itself, the SWP or the various pro-Palestinian groups, are as rare as hen’s teeth.
And don’t let us forget Georgina’s injunction to “join the fray.” The pit bull fight atmosphere is deliberately engineered and, as you have so articulately stated, CiF deliberately facilitates this mindless hatred – one cannot call it “debate” – simply to get hits on threads.
CiF has tapped into a rich seam of hatred of Israel which in many cases barely masks Jew-hatred. And it makes sure that the hate-filled beast continues to be fed.
Perhaps one answer is for Zionists and Jews and their supporters to stop posting there. When a faked quote such as the one you refer to gets so many recommendations we should know that these people are impervious to reasoned argument. In this way Georgina may be conditioned to provide more even handed threads.
September 8, 2009 at 7:45 pm
AKUS
1Peter – not me commenting (September 8, 2009 at 5:42 pm) about your keyboard
How pathetic is it that there’s a troll somewhere out there trying to fake comments here instead of stating his/her views.
It makes the point about the enviroment that has been created by CIF.
- moderators please remove the comment – AKUS September 8, 2009 at 5:42 pm
September 8, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Jacob-Alain
SPEAKING OF NAZI ANALOGIES I JUST ACROSS THIS LITTLE GEM ABOUT “HUMAN RIGHT’S WATCH”
“Marc Garlasco – Is HRW’s Anti-Israel Investigator A Nazi-Obsessed Collector?”
WHY IS HUMAN RIGHT’S OFFICIAL POSTING ON NAZI WEBSITES?
http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11275875.html
September 8, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Teacup
AKUS,
If I had to deal with criticism of India or its actions I would
1. Check out the statement for accuracy. If it is, I would admit it.
2. If not, I would provide evidence to the contrary
3. What I would NOT do it is assume that I know what is in the other person’s mind and twist things around to satisfy myself that the other is a something-nasty-ist!
Consider Blue above!
Blue,
Please read my post above again. Berchmans and I have PROTESTED against the banning of AKUS. I don’t like the idea of banning anyone and have said so frequently on CiF. Berchmans and I have called for AKUS REINSTATEMENT – which, dear blue, means that he should be allowed to post on CiF. I see no reason for Berchmans or me to hang our heads. Rather, I am happy that I protested his banning.
September 8, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Teacup
ExiledLondoner,
I thank you for your understanding. I wish that it were infectious. Oops! There I go again, using metaphors from disease! If you happen to be Jewish, I suppose that we will go through the same sorry argument again with the “jaundiced” folk who see everything as yellow.
This has been fascinating as a study of inbuilt bias (an I am not talking about myself) and how it slews bothe thought and argument.
Everybody else,
Clearly the hardest thing to open is a closed mind. I am off, but I assure you that I will continue posting on CiF and stand by what I have written.
Good wishes to all
Teacup
September 8, 2009 at 11:15 pm
Hawkeye
Teacup:
“Clearly the hardest thing to open is a closed mind. I am off, but I assure you that I will continue posting on CiF and stand by what I have written.”
I assume in that case you stand by your support of Caryl Churchill’s antisemitic play when you said this and yes, in response to what you wrote in your vile support of the piece, it does make you an antisemite:
teacup’s comment 01 May 09, 1:03pm
Caryl Churchill,
Bravissima!
Guardian,
Thank you for that video. I don’t see how anyone watching it can not realise that it is about ISRAEL – “Don’t tell her Arabs used to sleep in her bedroom”, the bit about the wall and the queues at the checkpoints, the swimming pool/water for their fields, etc. etc.
The actress conveys most beautifully the anxious mother worried about the impact of terrible events on her child. It is a very moving piece and makes me think about the events of the Gaza war from the Israeli point of view as well as that of the people of Gaza.
Authors,
Thank you for discussing the play, I wouldn’t have seen the video otherwise and I now plan to purchase a text of the play and a DVD of a performance if and when available.
I regret to say that you come across as people who take any criticism of Israel as “anti-semite” and I disagree with your analysis if the video is typical of the entire play.
If that makes me anti-semitic, so be it. I don’t consider myself so, but if someone else does, I will live with it.
September 8, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Hawkeye
Teacup:
Or how about this on Daphna Baram thread “Its time to rethink Zionism”:
teacup’s comment 17 Feb 09, 10:56am
FinDempire,
The Haganah drove out 780,000 Arabs from Palestine because it needed their land and resources to build a viable state, and because they posed a security risk, not because it hated them for being Arabs.
So, if a country, be it Israel, Iran, Indonesia or India, wants something that belongs to another country, it just goes over and takes it, huh? If I want a Swiss bank and a ski resort or two, should I get India to nuke Switzerland?
Some justification for Zioterrorism!
September 8, 2009 at 11:20 pm
Hawkeye
Teacup:
In fact on the Daphna Baram thread you were on a bit of a roll. Here’s something else you said blanketly denying Jews the right to self determination (hint read the EUMC Working Definition of Antisemitism):
teacup’s comment 17 Feb 09, 10:17am
How about a full fledged South African solution? Those who don’t want to live in a land ruled by those who were born there, regardless of religion or ethnicity, which means a Palestinian majority, can go back to where they/their parents or grandparents migrated from, or anywhere else that will take them.
As I asked on another thread, if Jews deserve a state of their own, how about animists, atheists, Baha’is….Zoroastrians? Does every religion need a state of its own.
Secularism, that is the ticket. No to any sort of apartheid.
September 8, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Hawkeye
Teacup:
And here’s another sickening classic from you –
teacup’s comment 03 Jun 09, 11:33am
Jeremy,
such a policy may not be possible in the face of Israeli public opinion which genuinely sees Iran as a dire threat to its security.
How about coping with FACTS rather than opinions? Your article, I regret to say, is just combining a bunch of unverified sayings and using it to scaremonger.
You sound like those supporting and urging GWB into that astonishingly stupid war on Iraq. It is time your western liberal democratic Israel grew up and out of its paranoia.
I totally agree with the poster who would encourage 100% emigration of Israelis and the return of Palestinian land to the Palestinian people.
September 8, 2009 at 11:40 pm
John
teacup has yet to comment on CiF’s article: “India’s school of abuse”. teacup is too busy obsessing about Israel – a country about which h/she knows nothing – to comment on the abuse of children in his/her own country.
September 9, 2009 at 12:04 am
JerusalemMite
Doesn’t Teacup have some ancestral links to an Arab Christian church in Syria somewhere?
If my memory serves me correctly.
September 9, 2009 at 4:22 am
exiledlondoner
Demeter,
“Still, he has some uses. The hits to CiFWatch’s threads must have rocketed because of his equivalent of verbal diarrhea. Keep on keeping on Exiled. Even if you do talk tosh for the most part. You are helping to make CiFWatch famous.”
That’s exactly my intention – the more the merrier.
CIF Watch is rapidly descending into its true role – just another site for extreme Zionists and Jewish supremecists (with a few notable exceptions, who know who they are) to touch base and share dreams of victory. Normally, the uncommitted observer never gets to see the true face of extremism – most websites are very much for the faithful – but CIF Watch’s conceit in claiming to be nothing but a site monitoring anti-semitism might help to attract outsiders.
You may believe that more visitors will benefit your cause, but I beg to differ – I think that you will do the same for the Zionist cause as Islamic extremists have done for the Palestinians.
All in all the impression is of self-pitying, self delusional hatred. Posters whining about racism, while displaying their own racism, posters whining about demonisation while demonising others, posters whining about bias, while exhibiting staggering bias of their own, and most damningly, the site that claims CIF is one sided, publishing nothing but one side.
I believe that CIF Watch is performing a public service in making extremist Zionist theory available to a wider audience, and I will do anything I can to help in that. When I said that hatred should be out in the open, where it can be challenged, I meant it.
My only sadness is that there isn’t an Islamic extremist equivilent to CIF Watch – I would consider it a great honour to be able to do the same for them. Maybe I could get my own thread, like I’ve had here?
September 9, 2009 at 5:17 am
HarryTheHorse
And don’t let us forget Georgina’s injunction to “join the fray.” The pit bull fight atmosphere is deliberately engineered and, as you have so articulately stated, CiF deliberately facilitates this mindless hatred – one cannot call it “debate” – simply to get hits on threads
How is it ‘deliberately engineered’? Most other forums on CIF are not marked by the same degree of rancorous emnity that the Israel threads are. The idea that this is all the fault of the critics of Israel or of the Guardian is laughable. It takes two to have a fight and I have seen enough racist and inflammatory posts from pro-Israel posters to know that the fault isn’t all on one side. I do think the Guardian is at fault for allowing this bear-pit to continue. Such an atmosphere discourages more moderate posters from contributing, which only makes it even more dominated by extremists.
September 9, 2009 at 5:24 am
sababa
Hawkeye, excellent examples of Teacup’s comments. But, as she stated, she doesn’t really mind to be considered an antisemite… Well, by saying it would be a good idea to drive all those “European” Jews out of Israel, she is of course just saying what Hamas — and btw, Azzam Tamimi, the Hamas apologist who used to contribute to Cif — have been saying all along. And, what do you know, Ahamadinejad happens to agree… Nice company, teacup!
That reminds me that I saw a comment once where teacup expressed heartfelt horror about Harry’s Place, which she called a sewer, presumably because they have a lot of articles exposing Islamist antisemitism, and there are sometimes reader comments that then rail against Muslims in general. The people who run HP of course have often expressed their rejection of such views and make an effort to delete these comments. It goes to show that teacup has very tender sensibilities when it comes to “Islamophobia”, while she has no interest when Jews protest antisemitism.
Arguably, that makes her a perfect Cif reader, because in the debate about the Churchill play on 7 Jewish Children, the readers’ editor once wrote a column where she said something like: so OK, there are people who consider this play antisemitic, but why would I care… Needless to say, among the people who considered the play antisemitic were very well qualified people, like Mark Gardner of CST, or a former Yad Vashem Archive director, Yaacov Lozowick.
And needless to say, in the debate about 7 Jewish Children, any reader comments that mentioned attempts to show how antisemitic the play was by penning alternatives like 7 Muslim children, or 7 Arab children, were promptly deleted by Cif mods.
September 9, 2009 at 5:37 am
JerusalemMite
HarryTheHorse. I do think the Guardian is at fault for allowing this bear-pit to continue.
I agree. A basic truth.
Now. Suggest it on CI(F) and see who supports you and who doesn’t.
I don’t think that I will be surprised by who, (Which commenters), want to continue.
September 9, 2009 at 6:42 am
blue
@Teacup: “3. What I would NOT do it is assume that I know what is in the other person’s mind and twist things around to satisfy myself that the other is a something-nasty-ist! Consider Blue above! Blue,Please read my post above again. Berchmans and I have PROTESTED against the banning of AKUS. I don’t like the idea of banning anyone and have said so frequently on CiF. Berchmans and I have called for AKUS REINSTATEMENT – which, dear blue, means that he should be allowed to post on CiF. I see no reason for Berchmans or me to hang our heads. Rather, I am happy that I protested his banning.”
Quicki response: I read your post, @Teacup – and I’ll reiterate my earlier response that Berchmans and some others should hang their heads in shame, to expand a little: Berchmans et al should try leaving the complaints link, alone, Teacup. Should stop lobbying the moderators ! Geddit? It isn’t for nothing that Berchmans is often rebuked by many posters (AKUS included) for being censorious.
If I thought you were anything to do with this banning, I’d have said so very clearly.
September 9, 2009 at 7:49 am
blue
exiled: “My only sadness is that there isn’t an Islamic extremist equivilent to CIF Watch – I would consider it a great honour to be able to do the same for them. Maybe I could get my own thread, like I’ve had here?”
Your zealous devotion to stomping on all things extreme seems peculiar to say the least, @exiled. It wasn’t that long ago you were arguing Laritournelle was distressed by so called Jewish nationalism (hence her “unfortunate” Jew-baiting of Linda Grant and so on) yet this woman has shown more than a smattering of Irish-nationalism in her own posts — maybe you merely overlooked this…maybe not.
In my opinion, you should not conflate LaRitournelle with Teacup, and neither should anyone else. There are those with whom I might disagree, even strongly so, but would try to reach some understanding and then there are those who hide being “anti Zionism” as a cloak for their antisemitism. Such people and cif’s toleration of them, should be held in no small way, responsible for creating the very culture of their I/P threads.
September 9, 2009 at 10:34 am
SilverTrees
HarrytheHorse, go ahead and laugh if you want. The deliberate cranking up of the hostilities of the I/P conflict by CiF is self-evident.
Now this is either intentional or careless. I don’t think that carelessness is responsible for Henry and her ilk making sure that the majority of articles on CiF’s Middle East section (and curiously enough in the Judaism section too) present a fundamentally dishonest anti-Israel bias and having articles which demonise Israel as if she is the most evil entity on earth. And if Henry were merely being careless, why would people who disagree with the thrust of these articles be deleted or banned?
No, this is deliberate and unbalanced. This can be demonstrated by the commissioning of “poor us” articles about Palestinians (which are often a combination of cloying self-pity and barely concealed threat) by the likes of Azzam Tamimi and Khaled Misha’al, both of whom supported suicide terror and, worst of all an unabashed and totally sick-making eulogy for a Hamas leader, Nizar Rayyan, whose son was a suicide bomber and who forced his family to die alongside him in Gaza because he would not let them leave for safety.
This is a very young blog, HarrytheHorse, but if I am correct, its aims are to point up CiF bias which opens the door below the line as well as above it for antisemitism which masquerades as hatred of Israel.
CiF is more than accomplished at demonstrating the latter and certain people below the line, like LaRitournelle, are still allowed to post in spite of their history of putting out anti-Jewish filth, whereas an erudite and non-hating poster like AKUS has been banned from doing so, very likely because he supports Israel but coincidently he happens to be a Jew..
If that is not the deliberate engineering of hate-filled bias, then I invite you to tell us what is.
September 9, 2009 at 6:25 pm
cityca
AKUS
Sorry to hear you’ve been banned. Judging by the quality of your posts on CiF, you were obviously providing too high a quality of rebuttal for them to stomach. Well done.
I am finding more and more of my posts moderated off CiF too. Whether I am contravening CiF rules, or there is something more worrying happening, I am not sure.
Very much appreciate your article and in particular your phrase ‘house Jews’. Of course, even as a Jew myself I would probably be moderated for using it on CiF, but it will be interesting to try – thanks.
Whether its the change in the season or this particular baby boomer is getting old, Ifind I haven’t the patience to reply to some of the inanities that I read on CiF that don’t actually need to be rebuffed. Bechmans and talknic and Leon Wells are good examples of those who post nonsense in the hope of long drawn out slanging match – don’t these people have jobs?
But now lately even the formerly intelligent exiled seems more interested in scoring points over a dozen posts than making an reasoned argument.
Rewriting teacup, I would say the most malignant disease in the Middle East is the UK left wing media, in the 4 main strains of BBC, Guardian, Channel 4 and the Independent.
September 9, 2009 at 6:35 pm
cityca
Silvertrees
Unfortunately, I have to agree. If it looks like it, smells like it, and tastes like it, chances are, that’s what it is.
Worrying that a mainstream UK News organisation is lending itself to this insidious form of racism. Perhaps it shows just how desperate they are to keep a readership and as Jews* are unlikely to be the mainstream of Guardian readership, they can appeal to a low common denominator.
*Other than ‘house Jews’ that is.
September 9, 2009 at 6:50 pm
AKUS
September 9, 2009 at 6:25 pm
cityca – thanks for your kind comment – I have admired your efforts to fight the inaccuracies – lies? – etc on CIF.
Like yourself, I finally feel exhausted by the inanity, and the brutal moderation, where any comments that oppose the prevailing party line and tone are deleted, making the whole thing a sham – but a vicious one designed to give the impression that there is considerable support for the editors’ line.
Since they do not bother to explain why they ban someone (I love the way they adopted that term from apartheid South Africa – people there who opposed the government were “banned” and could not speak in public, or attend meetings, etc.) I actually have no real idea what my “sin” was, nor can I fathom many of the deletions I see (sometimes even deletions for the usual idiots which seem silly or harmless enough) except insofar as they are designed to keep a heavy thumb on the scale in terms of the topic of the article and protect house Jews from criticism.
But if you can keep it up for a while – do so – every so often one or two of us stumble onto the site and pick up the cudgels again from those who left. And post here – this site really provides a good counter balance, and except for the odd troll provides a much more open forum.
September 9, 2009 at 7:07 pm
SilverTrees
“..I am finding more and more of my posts moderated off CiF too. Whether I am contravening CiF rules, or there is something more worrying happening, I am not sure…”
Since CiF mods don’t themselves seem to know what the rules are, it seems more likely that the repressive climate there is worsening.
But worry you not, cityca. Go to the article here which tells you how to save your CiF posts in case of deletion. I think it tells you how to post them here. I would like to read them.
“Bechmans and talknic and Leon Wells are good examples of those who post nonsense in the hope of long drawn out slanging match – don’t these people have jobs?”
It’s likely that they don’t have lives either cityca.
September 9, 2009 at 11:50 pm
JerusalemMite
cityca – I am finding more and more of my posts moderated off CiF too. Whether I am contravening CiF rules, or there is something more worrying happening, I am not sure.
Wear it as a badge of honor cityca.
CI(F) ‘moderation policy’ is just for public display and legalities only. They use the Moderating policy to weight the discourse in such a way that it flows in the direction of the CI(F) World View. The number of posters taking the time to defend Israel against their nitpicking obsessive anti Israel rants is rising month by month. That and this forum must really irk the Trotskites and their loyal followers who have control of the Guardian at the moment.
September 10, 2009 at 2:59 am
exiledlondoner
Hi Cityca,
“But now lately even the formerly intelligent exiled seems more interested in scoring points over a dozen posts than making an reasoned argument.”
Having been already called every name under the sun, I’m not sure that this is quite the forum for reasoned arguments…. unless they’re of one particular persuasion?
Maybe I can recover my ‘former intelligence’ in a less hostile and extreme atmosphere?
Hi AKUS,
“Since they do not bother to explain why they ban someone (I love the way they adopted that term from apartheid South Africa – people there who opposed the government were “banned” and could not speak in public, or attend meetings, etc.) I actually have no real idea what my “sin” was, nor can I fathom many of the deletions I see (sometimes even deletions for the usual idiots which seem silly or harmless enough) except insofar as they are designed to keep a heavy thumb on the scale in terms of the topic of the article and protect house Jews from criticism.”
CIF’s moderation is as much of a mystery to me as it is to you – though given some of the posts that stay up, we’re going to have to agree to disagree on the issue of bias.
One thing though – given the sensitivity here to use of language, and to the historic background and meaning of certain rhetorical flourishes – I would seriously question your use of “House Jew” (from “House Nigger”).
This would seem to be a rather nasty ad hominem, implying that Jews who take a different view to yours are somehow demeaning themselves by performing for the white folks – in this case, those who oppose Israel’s policies. By all means argue against their views – I have many differences with those you mention – but don’t imply that those views are not sincerely held, or that they’re disloyal.
“this site really provides a good counter balance, and except for the odd troll provides a much more open forum.”
Talking about anyone we know?
September 10, 2009 at 3:54 am
Jonah
All this talk of banning and subterfuges brings to mind the world of Kafka.
Aren’t you all in danger of making a mountain out of a molehill?
September 10, 2009 at 4:13 am
cityca
AKUS, SilverTrees, Jerusalem Mite,
Thanks for your comments and support. Exiled, compared to CiF, CiFWatch strikes me as a good deal less hostile than its namesake, but as you say, we must agree to disagree. As to AKUS’s phrase ‘house Jews’, I think for example, Freedman and Lerman’s writing on CiF is intended to deliberately a. appeal to a particular audience; b. antagonise another audience. I think they’ve both succeeded and having been antagonised, I see no reason not to repay the compliment. Frankly I’d be surprised if CiF allows comments containing the phrase to stay, unless they deem it useful to show the discord sown by their ‘house boys’.
What puzzles me is how writers like these cannot see the damage they do, but it’s possible their personal aggrandizement is more important to them than the harm they do.
The left in the UK have historically always been at each others’s throats so perhaps its part of their DNA.
September 10, 2009 at 6:09 am
Ariadne
exiledlondoner
“Jews who take a different view to yours”?
Aren’t you giving yourself away there?
September 10, 2009 at 6:12 am
exiledlondoner
Cityca,
“Exiled, compared to CiF, CiFWatch strikes me as a good deal less hostile than its namesake, but as you say, we must agree to disagree.”
That probably depends on where you’re coming from?
“As to AKUS’s phrase ‘house Jews’, I think for example, Freedman and Lerman’s writing on CiF is intended to deliberately a. appeal to a particular audience; b. antagonise another audience.”
You seem to have discounted the possibility that they believe in what they write?
“I think they’ve both succeeded and having been antagonised, I see no reason not to repay the compliment.”
That seems to be on the same level as a poster making anti-semitic comments because they’re angry with someone’s position. I wouldn’t claim to have always remained above making personal attacks (the howls of protest would be deafening), but I don’t think I’ve ever resorted to attacking someone on the basis of their race – which “house Jew” does, even when it comes from a fellow Jew.
“Frankly I’d be surprised if CiF allows comments containing the phrase to stay, unless they deem it useful to show the discord sown by their ‘house boys’.”
They won’t, and for reasons of their talk policy.
“What puzzles me is how writers like these cannot see the damage they do, but it’s possible their personal aggrandizement is more important to them than the harm they do.”
What harm, and to who? To Israel? Their view of what’s harmful to Israel is rather different to yours.
“The left in the UK have historically always been at each others’s throats so perhaps its part of their DNA.”
Just in the UK? The left have always behaved like ferrets in a sack. The classic battle has always been between the right’s discipline and organisation, and the left’s passion and anger – it probably explains why the right are so much more successful?
September 10, 2009 at 6:14 am
exiledlondoner
Ariadne,
“Aren’t you giving yourself away there?”
Am I? I assume that there are Jews who have a different view than AKUS?
September 10, 2009 at 6:33 am
Ariadne
exiledlondoner
In the main what is being done here is a dismantling of lies and the exposition of some truth.
I say “some truth” because the matter is so big.
Like any old Holocaust denier you claim lies as “a view”. When you say “Jews who take a different view to yours” you are very close to those antisemites who say “X says they’re antisemitic just because they don’t agree with her or him”.
It’s a lot easier than dealing with the content of the lies!
September 10, 2009 at 7:05 am
exiledlondoner
Ariadne,
“Like any old Holocaust denier you claim lies as “a view”.”
You taking the piss, or are you seriously unwell?
1) I’m not a Holocaust denier (you did know that, didn’t you?)
2) I wasn’t claiming “lies” as anything – I was saying that “house Jew” was inappropriate to describe someone who has a different viewpoint (on anything in particular, rather than any given subject).
3) Who mentioned the Holocaust anyway? (certainly not me or Akus in relation to this point).
“When you say “Jews who take a different view to yours” you are very close to those antisemites who say “X says they’re antisemitic just because they don’t agree with her or him”.”
Oh I wouldn’t want anyone to think that! Let me change it to “all Jews think exactly the same as each other, all the time and on every issue”.
Is that better?
Maybe the EUMC have a definition for “house Jew” – that way you wouldn’t have to go to such lengths to connect it with anti-semitism?
Now go and have a lie down, and hopefully you’ll feel better when you wake up…
September 10, 2009 at 7:12 am
Ariadne
exiledlondoner
You are here to play and not many of us share your interest, as far as I can see.
September 10, 2009 at 10:32 am
HarryTheHorse
Silver Trees – I rarely comment on the Israel/Palestine forums for the reasons I have already set out but I do read the articles and I find your description of them to be exaggerated, to put it mildly. One constant in the Guardian’s moderation policy is that it will tolerate personal attacks on the authors of articles. And rightly so. If your highly coloured opinions of the articles translate into equally trenchant attacks on their authors that may explain why you find your contributions being moderated.
September 10, 2009 at 10:39 am
SilverTrees
HarrytheHorse, your post makes no sense.
And CiF will not tolerate any criticism of its party line – it will not even allow references to that, probably because of a dictat by “Georgina” who regularly gets her panties in a bunch about any criticism of CiF I am told.
You are entitled to your opinion, HarrytheHorse. As my mother used to say, “It’s a good job we are not all alike” But it is only an opinion, not objective fact.
As Berchmans would babble – “You take care.”
September 10, 2009 at 10:42 am
JerusalemMite
Exiled – What harm, and to who? To Israel? Their view of what’s harmful to Israel is rather different to yours.
There are a whole plethora of commenters on CI(F) who claim that they are ‘Israel’s friend’. Just when you examine what they are proposing, you can see the Jewish State going down the drain and being replaced by a Muslim dominated state whose ‘democratic values’ will be merged into the ‘freedoms’ associated with Sharia. (Snigger)
In spite of the disdain that I hold for your views, I do recognise that the destruction of the Jewish Homeland is not your intention even with your inflexible arguments.
The stable of ‘House Jews’ mentioned here are involved in trying to bring about the destruction of the Jewish Democratic state in the Middle East. They are persons who have been ‘found out’ by the Jewish communities that they live in and their views rejected. Soundly rejected. Their answer has been to use the willing platform provided by CI(F)
CI(F) in turn, provides a platform for anti Semites writing under the umbrella of anti Zionism, as CI(F) would describe it.
Thus I see those ‘House Jews’ as despicable. If they could attract the attention of respectable newspapers to ‘host’ their writings, my attitude would be different. People are certainly free to have their opinions.
September 10, 2009 at 10:50 am
HarryTheHorse
I think for example, Freedman and Lerman’s writing on CiF is intended to deliberately a. appeal to a particular audience; b. antagonise another audience. I think they’ve both succeeded and having been antagonised, I see no reason not to repay the compliment
Well I’ve read Freedman’s articles and they certainly don’t read to me as someone who is deliberately baiting his audience. Obviously you strongly disagree with what he writes but you appear to be allowing those feelings to project onto him motives which I don’t think he has. If you feel entitled to ‘return the compliment’ then I am not too surprised that your posts get deleted.
September 10, 2009 at 10:55 am
HarryTheHorse
You are entitled to your opinion, HarrytheHorse. As my mother used to say, “It’s a good job we are not all alike” But it is only an opinion, not objective fact
Which is something that CIFwatch might also reflect on, that others do not necessarily recognise your opinions of CIF as being accurate.
September 10, 2009 at 11:04 am
HarryTheHorse
And CiF will not tolerate any criticism of its party line
Well there are criticism and criticisms, aren’t there. Ill tempered and humourless attacks on Guardian employees are likely to be swiftly deleted. I can’t see how anyone could be surprised by that. Ultimately we are guests on the Guardian’s site, using its resources and its internet presence to get a far wider audience for our views than we could otherwise get. The bottom line is, if we don’t like its ‘party line’ we shouldn’t post there.
September 10, 2009 at 11:04 am
JerusalemMite
HarryTheHorse – Which is something that CIFwatch might also reflect on, that others do not necessarily recognise your opinions of CIF as being accurate.
You imply that debate is somehow stifled here.
Yet you seem free to post views which are opposed to the declared CIFWatch ‘mission’.
Have you had any comments ‘disappeared’ as mine were on CI(F)?
September 10, 2009 at 11:14 am
JerusalemMite
HarryTheHorse – The bottom line is, if we don’t like its ‘party line’ we shouldn’t post there.
They are hosting Antisemitism under the umbrella of anti Zionism.
They are obsessive about Israel and publish articles discussing the most minor of things that happen in Israel. They happily allow posting links to virulently anti Israel sites but will delete any post containing any link to MEMRI. MEMRI is a site used by many people to see how the Muslim world relates to Western Society.
Any links to Harry’s Place result in the post being deleted and perhaps the commenter blocked. Harry’s Place does not return the ‘compliment’.
CI(F) creates an environment where the US, the UK, neocons and Israel can be denigrated to ones hearts content but counter comments are moderated out of existence.
Yet, I have seen CI(F) use the word ‘balance’ to describe their publishing policy.
September 10, 2009 at 11:16 am
HarryTheHorse
The stable of ‘House Jews’ mentioned here are involved in trying to bring about the destruction of the Jewish Democratic state in the Middle East
That seems to me to be an extremely offensive and insulting dismissal of Jews who have a different view to yourself. Considering that this thread is ostensibly about insulting comparisons to Nazism, the phrase ‘House Jew’ shows equal tactlessness.
Thus I see those ‘House Jews’ as despicable. If they could attract the attention of respectable newspapers to ‘host’ their writings, my attitude would be different. People are certainly free to have their opinions
Though not free not to be insulted for having those opinions.
September 10, 2009 at 11:24 am
HarryTheHorse
You imply that debate is somehow stifled here
I am implying no such thing. I am a guest here and you are responding in a civil way to me. But if my views are to be dismissed as mere opinion then I think the same criticism can be made in reverse.
Yet you seem free to post views which are opposed to the declared CIFWatch ‘mission’
It depends how you critcise, doesn’t it. If you start impugning someone’s motives – and I don’t think I have done that here – then that is something else.
September 10, 2009 at 11:56 am
HarryTheHorse
They are hosting Antisemitism under the umbrella of anti Zionism
That’s a serious charge which I don’t think is substantiated. I think they are guilty of the lesser charge that they insufficiently moderate ill-tempered ‘debates’ on Israel.
They are obsessive about Israel and publish articles discussing the most minor of things that happen in Israel. They happily allow posting links to virulently anti Israel sites but will delete any post containing any link to MEMRI. MEMRI is a site used by many people to see how the Muslim world relates to Western Society
Any links to Harry’s Place result in the post being deleted and perhaps the commenter blocked. Harry’s Place does not return the ‘compliment’
I haven’t encountered MEMRI but I have read Harry’s Place for some time. Although its articles are usually free of overt racism that cannot be said of its comments section, which is very lightly moderated. I would not consider it reliable source of information. And, getting back to theme of this thread, it is a hive of offensive and inappropriate comparisons to Nazism.
CI(F) creates an environment where the US, the UK, neocons and Israel can be denigrated to ones hearts content but counter comments are moderated out of existence
That’s certainly not true on other CIF forums, where supporters of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan appear to be able to post unimpeded. I have had enough exchanges with supporters of US and UK foreign policy to know that those opinions can be expressed on CIF.
September 10, 2009 at 12:27 pm
JerusalemMite
HarryTheHorse – It depends how you critcise, doesn’t it. If you start impugning someone’s motives – and I don’t think I have done that here – then that is something else.
Would the implication that no reputable host would publish the ‘writings’ of these ‘House Jews’ go towards motive?
September 10, 2009 at 12:48 pm
HarryTheHorse
Would the implication that no reputable host would publish the ‘writings’ of these ‘House Jews’ go towards motive?
You have claimed that they are trying to ‘bring about the destruction’ of Israel. That seems to me to be a pretty unequivocal impugning of motive! Is that something you have written on CIF? Was it deleted? Were you surprised?
September 10, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Ariadne
Well, HarryThe Horse, you don’t change. “Jews who have a different view to yourself” You and exiledlondoner. Truth doesn’t matter.
September 10, 2009 at 7:12 pm
1peter
What makes the “house Jews” deserve the sobriquet.
Lets see.
There are any number of themes they could choose to write about on a weekly or monthly basis regarding Israel, they could be well rounded, they could have left or right wing slant, they could be critical, they could be complimentary etc etc etc.
These “house Jews” have chosen a path of constant criticism, which is their right, though it certainly representative of the going ons in the country.
There are web-sites established that present exclusively negative news from countries. the badnewsfrom(fill in the country)blogspot.com for example that show how one can get a distorted vision of a country if only the negative stories are published. The series covers Britain, Sweden,, Finland,Belgium,Canada,USA,Netherlands, France, Mexico.
The picture is very damning and factually correct, drawing the stories from local press and media, not presenting editorial commentary, just pure “news”.
These “house Jews” do the very same thing, picking items with intent to present as being indicative of the country, the stories not being “lies”, they aren’t “evil”, but they are consistantly negative, the operative word being consistantly.
Lets be honest, Israel has been on war footing since birth, has a large minority that is represented in gov’t by increasingly hostile MK’s, has been dealing with terrorists on 3 borders……if you can’t find something negative to write about it would be a miracle, especially when being held up to a standard that is impossible to attain, being lily white.
We all know that Israel has warts, we all know that there are abuses at checkpoints, we all know that there are innocents who get killed, we all know that in the real world shit happens.
WE also know that the amount of shit that happens is minute given the conditions.
WE also know that Israel is a jewel in a neighborhood of repressive regimes where people like this are allowed to write their stories, where dissent is more than tolerated, where transparency is practised in ways unheard of in other countries.
The “house Jews” know this as well, yet continue to write articles time and time again that curry favour to the anti-semites out there.
That is what makes the term “house Jew” appropriate despite the protestations of the house pilpulist.
September 10, 2009 at 9:05 pm
John Brown
HarryTheHorse – it is simply untrue to say:
“I have had enough exchanges with supporters of US and UK foreign policy to know that those opinions can be expressed on CIF.”
People who comment supporting Israel, or disagreeing with an article on CIF that as usual trashes Israel, are routinely deleted. Where there is a rare article posted supporting Israel, the invective flies thick and fast, with few or no deletions, while again those supporting that author are relentlessly deleted.
The moderators, through their own bias or instruction from above maintain a heavy thumb on the scale to try to present an image of massive agreeement with the Guardian’s anti_Israeli editorial line. Just look at the last three articles for examples – you’ll find comment after comment deleted, and if you saw the original, for no discernible reason – they are polite, thoughtful, on topic etc.
September 11, 2009 at 4:07 am
HarryTheHorse
People who comment supporting Israel, or disagreeing with an article on CIF that as usual trashes Israel, are routinely deleted
The Guardian is rightly rigorous in removing posts that insult authors. Frankly if posters here can’t see what is offensive and insulting about calling Freedman a ‘House Jew’ or in claiming that he is attempting to destroy Israel, then that would explain why their posts are routinely and justly removed from the Guardian’s website.
The moderators, through their own bias or instruction from above maintain a heavy thumb on the scale to try to present an image of massive agreeement with the Guardian’s anti_Israeli editorial line. Just look at the last three articles for examples – you’ll find comment after comment deleted, and if you saw the original, for no discernible reason – they are polite, thoughtful, on topic etc
You mans as polite and thoughtful as JerusalemMite’s attacks on ‘House Jews’?
September 11, 2009 at 4:11 am
HarryTheHorse
Well, HarryThe Horse, you don’t change. “Jews who have a different view to yourself” You and exiledlondoner. Truth doesn’t matter
Well in the grown-up world people do have different views and if your only response to that is think the absolute worse of them and to insult them then perhaps you should stick to posting on unmoderated usenet where you can libel those who disagree with you to your heart’s content.
September 11, 2009 at 4:19 am
HarryTheHorse
The “house Jews” know this as well, yet continue to write articles time and time again that curry favour to the anti-semites out there
How do you know that Jewish writers who are critical of Israel are trying to ‘curry favour’ with anti-semites? Who gave you the clairvoyance to peer into their souls? Frankly if this is another of the ‘polite, thoughtful and on-topic’ contributions that John Brown is referring to then I am not surprised that it was removed by the moderators.
September 11, 2009 at 4:22 am
JerusalemMite
HarryTheHorse. Following is an example of a deleted post. I noticed it and it seemed to me to be concise and well written. Not abusive but using sarcasm to make a point. It was deleted.
********************************************
MiltonKeenest
11 Sep 09, 4:43am (21 minutes ago)
creel
Hamas, whose congregation is unrepresentative of the whole, at least recognizes this risk. While sadly for her own defense she is forced often onto the offensive, at the intellectual level she is careful to remember that what unites all Palestinian is a common foe.
Very true. Israel is always mentioned in any serious speech by Muslim ‘dignitaries’ from Morocco to Indonesia.
Strange that. I mean that so many Muslims are dying in Darfur, Muslim slaughtering Muslim. Yet no peep from these same people upholding Muslim virtue. The BBC has imparted to the outside world that upwards from 350,000 peope, Muslims actually, have lost their lives due to inter Muslim strife in Darfur yet, Darfur hardly get a single mention in the Muslim world wide press.
Israel on the other hand, a country where the ethnic cleansing has failed terribly and the Muslim population there shares equality with the barbaric Jewish population, is mentioned in every speech that Achmedinejad makes even though Iran has no common border with the ‘hated Zionist entity’. Arab citizens of Israel are represented in the Israeli Knesset and these same Arab members feel free to citicise the ‘evil Zionist entity’ at every opportunity that they have. (Compare that to the single Jewish member of the Majlis in Iran who seems to be in competition with his Arab Israeli counterparts in criticising the ‘evil Zionist entity’.
So. It is not at all difficult for a non Muslim to understand that all Muslims are united in the condemnation of Israel.
Is it?
September 11, 2009 at 5:07 am
Ariadne
HarryTheHorse
And no interest in where the truth lies. But at least you aren’t swearing.
September 11, 2009 at 5:09 am
Ariadne
HarryTheHorse and exiledlondoner: peas in a pod?
September 11, 2009 at 7:02 am
Ariadne
I see the comments on the Benny Morris article are getting worse and worse.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/11/middle-east-obama-peace?showallcomments=true
September 11, 2009 at 7:05 am
HarryTheHorse
JerusalemMite – no I can’t see any obvious reason why that post should have been removed. And I have certainly seen posts far more hostile to Muslims allow to stand on other CIF forums.
September 11, 2009 at 7:13 am
HarryTheHorse
Ariadne – I refrain from commenting on CIF’s Israel/Palestine forums and I have no interest in debating that subject with you here.
September 11, 2009 at 7:17 am
Ariadne
HarryTheHorse
So why are you here?
September 11, 2009 at 7:31 am
John Brown
Another example picked up from today’s Benny Morris thread. “Nehruivan’s” comment has now been deleted, but once again was see a sly attempt to compare Israelis to Nazis:
Sabraguy
11 Sep 09, 12:05pm (20 minutes ago)
Nehruivan
Ironically, the sentiment for Israel’s establishment was a product of a similar project in Europe.
What a disgusting comment. You can make your veiled insults, and your sly Nazi allusions, but you have forgotten the Jews aren’t a powerless dispossessed diaspora any more. Since the establishment of Eretz Israel, they no longer need to give a toss about people like you. I certainly don’t.
September 11, 2009 at 7:36 am
AKUS
The same Nazi analogy was picked up by FoolMeOnce and cityca – look what it took to get it removed!!
cityca
11 Sep 09, 12:26pm (7 minutes ago)
FoolMeOnce
Dear Guardian moderators
Equating Zionism with Nazism, as in the above post by Nehruvian
11 Sep 09, 9:32am (about 1 hour ago)
“the sentiment for Israel’s establishment was a product of a similar project in Europe.”
is considered hate speech by EU law and should be removed if the Guardian doesn’t want to face a law suit.
Since my abuse report didn’t convince you, I will write this until you do remove it.
The demonization of Israel will not go down without a fight.
Well said FMO – mods, why have you not removed Nehruvian’s post? Why do you keep giving space to individuals who breach EU race laws?
September 11, 2009 at 7:41 am
AKUS
This comment would be deleted immediately if the “racism” epithet were directed at a Moslem contributor. Accepting Jews as racists – no problem on CIF:
Moeran
11 Sep 09, 12:26pm (11 minutes ago)
I enjoyed Sabraguy’s macho posturing. Appropriate for the day on which the last episode of “The Wire” is being broadcast in the UK. Street -corner stuff.
“Liars of Araby”? This thread is-against all the odds- turning into comic cuts.
Anything I suppose to stops us revealing the essential racism of Morris’s article.
September 11, 2009 at 8:14 am
Hawkeye
Did anyone catch the full Nehruvian post. Sounds like a candidate for a Berchmans Award.
If anyone sees posts that would warrant such a coveted prize, please email a copy of the post to contactus@cifwatch.com or post on one of the applicable threads.
September 11, 2009 at 11:56 am
John Brown
Just the bit that cityca and FoolmeOnce picked up is worth at least an honorable mention :-)
It looks like you may need to have a permanent “Today’s Nazi Analogies” corner for your web site – there seem to be fresh examples daily.
September 11, 2009 at 12:45 pm
JerusalemMite
Hawkeye – I think cityca caught the Nehruvian comment on the ‘Who guards the Guardian CW thread.
September 11, 2009 at 12:47 pm
JerusalemMite
HarryTheHorse. It is possible that the Adriane comments above are not from Adriane. Perhaps the site monitors will have a look.
September 11, 2009 at 12:54 pm
HarryTheHorse
So why are you here?
Sigh. I though I had answered that already. Because this is a thread about inappropriate comparisons to Nazis and more generally about propriety of the Guardian’s behaviour in respect to the debates it hosts on Israel. I have no interest in getting into a debate about the rights and wrongs of the Israel/Palestine, for reasons I have already made abundantly clear.
September 13, 2009 at 9:22 am
Demeter
Ariadne, HarrytheHorse is the grit in the CiFWatch oyster which will be instrumental in turning it into a pearl.
September 13, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Ariadne
Demeter
That is poetic but you know the one about a sow’s ear. Maybe he has grown up and should have the benefit of some doubt.