In the latest Lerman thread, a self-confessed anti-Zionist commenter stated “[p]lease remember that the Israeli Foreign Office pays people to post here. This means that any pro-Israeli view is more than likely to be yet another instance of Israeli propaganda.”
While unfortunately one has come to expect this kind of “conspiracy theory” discourse from commenters on CiF, it is quite another to hear this from a member of the Guardian who holds a senior position there. But that is precisely what happened today and this is not the first time.
Brian Whitaker, commissioning editor of ‘Comment is Free’, fueled the “discussion” by, among other things, linking to a Ynet news article on “Israeli government’s internet activities”. When a ‘pro-Israel’ poster pointed out that this is a “serious, ugly, and counter-productive allegation, (should I add slanderous?) which unfairly taints any comment favoring Israel”, Whitaker responded by saying:
“I was just providing some supplementary information. Israel’s efforts to organise and co-ordinate internet “talkback” have been widely reported, though some commenters here seem to be sceptical.”
Given that the phenomenon of “nation branding” is nothing new and many other countries engage in other similar endeavors to improve their image abroad, what is it that motivates a member of the Guardian’s senior editorial team to specifically interject himself into the comment thread and slur pro-Israel posters in such a manner? And come to think of it, why is it that pro-Israel posters are specifically being singled out?
Because of CiF’s obsession with Israel and Whitaker’s prominent position with the Guardian, the upshot of his uncalled for intervention is to lend credence to the notion that there indeed is a Jewish conspiracy, whether or not this was actually his intention.
Meanwhile, Tony Lerman injects his own poison into the debate by stating:
“As for references being made to Cifwatch, I think its only fair to point out, before anyone gets too excited, that its basically a smear site, happy to make repeated unsubstantiated allegations about the views and biographies of people the sites initiators disagree with. And they fearlessly fight the good fight for truth and openness – by hiding behind pseudonyms.”
So I ask, who precisely is being smeared here? And what precisely are the unsubstantiated allegations that Lerman is referring to?
Hawkeye
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Medusa
The Alchemist
Louise
Tosca
Maimon
Telling the Truth
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Hadar Sela
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August 30, 2009 at 10:57 am
spectreovereurope
modernity-
I’ll look out for it. Incidentally the question was responded to rather well (IMO) on Cif by a poster called Yoshky.
August 30, 2009 at 11:00 am
blue
@exiled – your 7:20 a.m. is pretty central to what the debate here should be. That we are for various reason, slotted into certain racial/political camps. Where antisemitism comes into this is when pro Israel Jews are slotted into a specific groups, devoid of all context to anything they’ve actually written. For instance, object to Conor Foley being selective in wanting to close one specific blog when his criteria for doing so is easily applied to other blogs – stand accused of defending Harry’s Place which equals being a supporter liberal interventionism, etc, etc,. another one, being accused of being an apologist for all kinds of unkosher things. I even had the one commentator/ poster (BeatontheDonis) more than imply that I actually think Arabs are dirty and another contributor/poster came in with some nonsense about my position on Cast Lead – which was marvellous since non of this was based on anything I’d actually written, but on what he/they decided I thought…..Now why would that be.
As far as I’m personally concerned there are problems with cif’s moderation which need review, alas, IMO, cif’s attitude seems very much a case of: No explanation, no apologies. I simply do not feel this is good enough any longer.
WRT the eumc which it might be worth pointing out, as per my cif/cifwatch posts make clear, I’m not persuaded by it and I think my second post on here asked about some of the content in the bio’s – However, in regard to your own agreement with CifWatch that antisemitic posts in their bio’s does exist, I have left a post for you on the thread : exiles allegations – If you could answer, you might actually be of assistance in moving the debate forward. How about it ?
Yo @Spectre – still doing the night shift, if I imply it’s at a dodgy hotel maybe you could get exiled to wade in and get me for “defamation” – or you could just send me back one of your classic rejoinders.
August 30, 2009 at 11:04 am
spectreovereurope
blue-
Imply to your heart’s content-That’s what this site’s all about.
August 30, 2009 at 11:05 am
Louise
“Strange….the Israeli embassy isn’t on Kensington High street.”
That just about sums up your obsessive vindictive hate-filled mind.
August 30, 2009 at 11:18 am
PoorGeorgina
SpectralEurope
Jimmy Carter, Desmond Tutu, Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, Andrew Young, and many others over the years have been smeared as “anti-semitic” for their criticisms of Israel.
Maybe that’s because the obsessive, tendentious, OTT nature of their commentary show that Jimmy Carter, Desmond Tutu, Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, and Andrew Young are anti-Semitic.
August 30, 2009 at 11:18 am
blue
@spectreovereurope
“blue-Imply to your heart’s content-That’s what this site’s all about.”
Well, I’m no more responsible for this site than you are Spectre – just putting up opinions, asking questions….Just like you and exiled.
August 30, 2009 at 11:21 am
spectreovereurope
blue-
Apologies if I (cough) implied otherwise.
August 30, 2009 at 11:24 am
peterthehungarian
spectreovereurope
You are either amazingly stupid or considering others the same. You bring up an example of ignorance easily justifiable by king size idiocy and/or by Soviet brainwashing. If this story is true at all this is an exception. I repeat your assertion again:
“Can anyone explain to me why holocaust denial is anti-semitic? Surely an anti-semite would endorse the holocaust rather than deny it?”
You didn’t ask “Can anyone explain to me why holocaust denial is ALWAYS anti-semitic?” Your question implied that in according to your opinion denying the Holocaust is NOT antisemitic.
You failed miserably. Your place on this list is well deserved reading only this post of yours alone.
August 30, 2009 at 11:30 am
spectreovereurope
peterthehungarian-
At the time of writing (three years ago), I was at work and posting clandestinely. All my comments at the time were short (through neccessity) and lacking in appropriate nuance-for THAT I apologise.
August 30, 2009 at 11:41 am
exiledlondoner
CIFCritic,
Most of your post is about CIF policy (particularly moderation policy), which is something I can’t answer for, and I don’t know under what circumstances posters have been pre-moderated or banned.
You might think I’m a Guardianista from what I’ve written here, but I’m not entirely sure why you would think that? I’m not here defending the Guardian.
To answer your questions about me – I have never been pre-moderated or banned, and have posted under the same username for about 5 years (Guardian Talk and CIF). I suspect one of the reasons I haven’t had many problems is because I normally challenge posts directly, without reference to any other issues – my posts are removed under the “referring to” policy, rather than on their own merits.
There are at least two of my challenges on live threads at the moment (Lerman and Beaumont), and no doubt many more in the archives.
One point – the closest I’ve been to banning, and my most furious exchanges with Georgina, have not been over the ME threads at all, but over the over moderation of staffer threads (Toynbee, Ashley ect).
August 30, 2009 at 12:12 pm
CiFCritic
Noted, exiledlondoner, and I also note that you are on first name terms with the CiF Editor-in-Chief (“Georgina”). Perhaps therefore you do have more clout than the likes of me had or you have a charmed life there for other reasons if indeed you challenge antisemitic and other racism as often as you say you do.
I, too, challenged posts directly and firmly and politely. I never got as far as writing to “Georgina” though. I was banned before I could.
August 30, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Louise
Bothered
I’m sorry you do not feel comfortable either here or on CIF.
I’m sure you’ll find ‘the right one’ soon.
August 30, 2009 at 12:55 pm
PoorGeorgina
@Bothered
Tutu is an anti-Semite on may grounds, not just the one.
Regarding the “Israel Lobby,” the very term plays into the centruies of anti-Semitic conspiracy theory, including the Protocols. Even in the USA, the Jews constitute less than 2% of the population, and simply cannot control government. The strong US support for Israel comes not from Jewish Americans, nor from an “Israel Lobby”, but from the 55%+ of the gentile American public which consistently supports Israel.
Individual’s opinions (Dersh, Fink, M&W) of the “Israel Lobby” are rendered irrelevant by the American public’s support. Any claimed Lobby could disappear tomorrow and the support would remain.
August 30, 2009 at 1:06 pm
exiledlondoner
CIFCritic,
I think Georgina Henry is Georgina to most on CIF. I’ve had a number of exchanges with her, all on the subject of either moderation, or the ‘new’ CIF software, that I felt very strongly about.
To be honest, without knowing your CIF username(s), the circumstances of your banning, and the reasons given for it, I can’t shed any light on it. Banning happens on both sides – a number of those listed here are no longer posting, or at least not under the same names.
I can assure you that I don’t have any influence that I’ve noticed, and most of my complaints or suggestions fall on deaf ears.
Sometimes I think I have led a charmed life – certainly in the early days when I indulged in a fair amount of personal abuse – but I suspect that my history as a poster who engages in debate probably works in my favour.
August 30, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Jubilation
Now I consider myself to be fairly reasonable – though perhaps this is not a universal opinion – and I have been in premoderation at least twice. I would not mind if it were accompanied by a note to my email address, which they have, explaining what I had done and which behaviour needed to be altered in their eyes. However as you know, there is nothing, and one is left feeling bewildered and at a loss.
So I agree you have had a charmed life, Exile.
August 30, 2009 at 1:16 pm
1peter
In the latest Lerman thread, a self-confessed anti-Zionist commenter stated “[p]lease remember that the Israeli Foreign Office pays people to post here. This means that any pro-Israeli view is more than likely to be yet another instance of Israeli propaganda.”
—————————————————————————————–
Considering the funds that the Saudi’s have put into propaganda it isn’t surprising to see such a projection.
The numbers of paid foreign agitators on campus are well known throughout the west, professional “students”, many not even registered that are running student clubs.
The numbers of “chairs” that have been endowed and continue to try and give legitimacy to the Chomsky’s and Finkelstein’s.
How crass to think that $150,000 budget is able to fund all of the various people who are going on-line to speak out against the racism, anti-semitism, anti zionism that we face daily.
Man, we sure do work cheap eh.
Fortunately we have one very important thing going for us, the truth.
We are not shackled by a false narrative that cannot and does not stand up to scrutiny.
We are a small people, 12 Million in all world-wide, yet we remain the chicken bone stuck in the throats of these people.
To be brutally honest, watching them wheezing and choking does not cause me any dismay at all.
August 30, 2009 at 1:19 pm
sergio bramsole
spectreovereurope “LeftWingOrthodoxJew presumably a left-wing Orthodox Jew”
The biggest red flag signifying false credentials is when trolls like him use Jewish monikers to consistently trash Israel. That troll is not Jewish at all.
August 30, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Jubilation
sorry Sergio but all the indicators point to the fact that he is Jewish.
August 30, 2009 at 1:30 pm
sergio bramsole
Jubilation, next time ask him to translate something from Hebrew.
August 30, 2009 at 1:38 pm
sergio bramsole
We can talk about it until the cows come home or we can do something concrete instead. I suggest we start boycotting CiF as a group.
August 30, 2009 at 1:38 pm
peterthehungarian
sergio you are mistaken.
Leftwingortodoxjew’s profil on the Guardian
Dan Rickman is an alumnus of an ultra-orthodox Jewish school in London and Oxford University who currently works in the IT industry. He has an MA in Hebrew and Jewish studies from the University of London and is author of a number of articles in the Jewish Chronicle. He posts on CiF as leftwingorthodoxjew
http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/dan-rickman
August 30, 2009 at 1:42 pm
1peter
spectreovereurope
Holocaust denial is frequently, though not invariably, motivated by anti-semitism. It’s entirely possible to be sceptical about the Holocaust through sheer ignorance rather than anti-semitism (in much the same way that some people believe the moon landings never happened). I question the automaticity of assigning motive. I knew a Hungarian family that came to the UK in 1956. They were under the impression that information about extermination camps was merely Soviet propaganda.
————————————————————————————–
Utter bullshit.
The Arrow Cross was every bit as eager as the Nazis, and while the Hungarians were sent to the concentration camps later than most, 550,000 out of 825,000 were killed.
A Jewish community that was fully assimilated like in Hungary cannot be deported “quietly”.
August 30, 2009 at 1:45 pm
sergio bramsole
Thanks Peter, I stand corrected.
August 30, 2009 at 1:49 pm
exiledlondoner
Hi Jubi,
“So I agree you have had a charmed life, Exile.”
Less so in recent times – nowadays I tend to keep my temper in check (probably more so than your good self?). You’re more recent, but I suspect that Peter (Hungarian) would have an opinion of my charmed life back in the bad old days…..
However, nothing got me closer to a ban than asking Jackie Ashley about her dinner party guest list….
Peter,
“Dan Rickman is an alumnus of an ultra-orthodox Jewish school in London and Oxford University who currently works in the IT industry. He has an MA in Hebrew and Jewish studies from the University of London and is author of a number of articles in the Jewish Chronicle. He posts on CiF as leftwingorthodoxjew”
Hmm, seems like he might be Jewish then.
Sergio Bramsole,
“That troll is not Jewish at all.”
Can I file that with your accusation that I’m an anti-semite?
August 30, 2009 at 1:49 pm
sergio bramsole
Dan Rickman must be every Jew-hater’s favorite Jew. He is still a troll in my book.
August 30, 2009 at 1:51 pm
peterthehungarian
spectreovereurope
“All my comments at the time were short (through neccessity) and lacking in appropriate nuance”
You must be joking. So at the time when you wrote “I hate blonde girls” must be translated for present use: “I DON’T hate blonde girls”?
This defense is so stupid that it doesn’t require any further discussion.
August 30, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Jubilation
Well, Exile, I think the honours are even between us – your unsuspected talent at reading my palm surprised me into an uncharacteristic response.
August 30, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Jubilation
Exile: The story about the guest list sounds as if it deserves to be heard if our hosts will bear with us?
August 30, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Leon Wells
Bothered
While I personally don’t hate CiF, it certainly resembles a school playground at times — and I think you’ve hit the nail on the head when you write:
“Apart from a small number of posters on here who are trying to have an intelligent open debate, this is turning into “You’re an Anti-Semite” “No, you’re a Zionist shill.”
Very grown-up, and not going to achieve anything.”
Indeed — well said.
August 30, 2009 at 2:28 pm
1peter
Actually this particular thread is supposed to be about the spurious allegation that individuals who are keen to point out the false statements and trot out the regular guilt by association are on some kind of a payroll.
Lerman has to resort to such innuendo instead of replying to those that point out the holes in his agenda.
August 30, 2009 at 2:28 pm
peterthehungarian
exiledlondoner
Leftwingortodoxjew is certainly a Jew, Sergio incorrectly considered him a provocateur and acknowledged his erroneous assumption.
From the other hand I perfectly understand the reason of this mistake.
As a veteran on CIF I know his past but if Sergio is a new boy on the block his supposition is perfectly logical and justifiable.
August 30, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Leon Wells
sergio bramsole
“Dan Rickman must be every Jew-hater’s favorite Jew. He is still a troll in my book.”
Such vitriol. Such an irrational attack on such a lovely, gentle guy. Why? I mean, deep down — what is the problem here?
Dan Rickman is about as reasonable a human being as you’re ever likely to meet.
August 30, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Mita
Leon Wells:Apart from a small number of posters on here who are trying to have an intelligent open debate, On here? On CiF there are those who spend all their time telling every Israeli how heartlessly they behave to the Palestinians: slaves to the biased UK media or I should imagine or dedicated Leftists with their own agenda to forward, but none the less inaccurate for that.
August 30, 2009 at 2:40 pm
peterthehungarian
1peter
You are correct. The accusation that pro-israeli posters are paid agents of some international Jewish conspiracy – Israeli government – Mossad etc so old like CIF itself. Until now the CIF moderators happily tolerated this kind shit, the change that now a staff member himself actively support it. Times are changing…
August 30, 2009 at 2:48 pm
sergio bramsole
ExiledLondoner,
“Can I file that with your accusation that I’m an anti-semite”
As a veteran on CIF I know his past but if Sergio is a new boy on the block his supposition is perfectly logical and justifiable.
There is something perceivably wrong with his attitudes toward Israel, His pathology goes way beyond mere politics. I must confess. I don’t really read his comments. He is not a compelling personalty in my book.
Why kick up a fuss over nothing? Read it again.
August 29, 2009 at 1:52 pm
sergio bramsole “ExiledLondoner is less strident in his comments and he isn’t a social antisemite in my opinion.”
I have been posting here for many, many years. I am not a noob. Thanks for bringing it up.
August 30, 2009 at 2:51 pm
1peter
I never heard of CiF till this year, didn’t even know that there was such a thing as the Guardian either.
Its a rather sad state of affairs when it came to my attention that a regular British paper is hotbed of anti-semitism hiding behind the hollow moral indignation of anti-Zionism.
Imagine my surprise when I found it to be so.
The daily dose of false information, the innuendo, the “facts” that get trotted out based on a false narrative.
It boggles the mind.
August 30, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Leon Wells
Mita
“On CiF there are those who spend all their time telling every Israeli how heartlessly they behave to the Palestinians: slaves to the biased UK media or I should imagine or dedicated Leftists with their own agenda to forward, but none the less inaccurate for that.”
Yes, I certainly agree that there are some misguided fools (and possibly some who are filled with actual hate) posting on CiF — but that goes for individuals on both ‘sides’ of the I/P divide. As I said to user, Bothered — CiF certainly resembles a school playground at times.
Looks to me like CiF Watch has very quickly gone the same way.
August 30, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Mita
Leon Wells you are so quick to judge people negatively for all your wonderfully kind words about some Jews. Give them a chance. It is a new site and needs time to settle down. Not everyone is as experienced as you are at running a site like this.
August 30, 2009 at 3:05 pm
sergio bramsole
Can I file that with your accusation that I’m an anti-semite?
Read it again.
August 29, 2009 at 1:52 pm
ExiledLondoner is less strident in his comments and he isn’t a social antisemite in my opinion.
August 30, 2009 at 3:07 pm
sergio bramsole
“Leon Wells attack on such a lovely, gentle guy”
If you defend him then I prove my case beyond any reasonable doubt.
August 30, 2009 at 3:41 pm
Mita
Leon Wells: “the way they allow irrational vitriol to stay up on the boards ”
I see you are in favour of censorship. A censor here would include your own comments about the site: twice you have used the word vitriol. It sounds like you prefer authoritarian government, someone taking charge. Well,well…
August 30, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Leon Wells
sergio bramsole
“If you defend him then I prove my case beyond any reasonable doubt”
Sorry? I don’t get you. Would you care to explain? And as I said: deep down — what is the problem here, Sergio — why so much vitriol?
Mita
I did respond to your last post, but it has just disappeared without trace…
August 30, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Leon Wells
Yes — Mita…
“A censor here would include your own comments about the site”
Which is exactly what’s just occurred — no?
August 30, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Mita
Leon Wells
“Mita
I did respond to your last post, but it has just disappeared without trace…”
Possibly they took your advice and started censoring posts. You should be proud.
August 30, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Leon Wells
Mita
“Possibly they took your advice and started censoring posts. You should be proud.”
Whatever I write — you’re just gonna move the goal posts, arncha?!!
Still, I suppose it’s better than getting your kicks on Route 66!
Goodnight.
August 30, 2009 at 4:23 pm
FormerCiFer
Mita LeonWells/Okyprianou is the same person, and is obsessive, as in obsessed with Jews. Anything to do with Jews and the I/P gives him cover to feed his addiction.
It’s better to ignore him. We took bets as to how long it would take for him to appear. It was faster than we anticipated.
Dotty – crawl back under your stone, you slime bag
August 30, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Woof
Mita LeonWells/Ocyprianou/Count Dotty is a well known anti-Semite on CiF who is obssessed with Jews. To give you some idea how bad he is he’s even been banned by CiF – and he is now back as BetselemPaul.
We knew he’d turn up, but it was sooner than we anticipated, a sign of how obsessed he is.
It’s best if we ignore him – it feeds his addiction.
Dotty – crawl back under your stone.
August 30, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Mita
FormerCiFer
I think I need a shower now after that encounter with the forces of darkness.
August 30, 2009 at 5:05 pm
MTM
“Yes — I see. Leave the vitriol, but remove the response. Nice work.”
You sound just like we do where cif’s concerned. Has life just got a little better for us or what.
Sliver off, Dotty, CIF loves you in your various guises so why the need to fill this site up with your inane babble under different monikers. You’re that far gone you’re even using two on this site – Kyprianou ? So many Jews here, eh? You just couldn’t stay away. You’re like a leach.
August 30, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Leon Wells
Let’s try that again.
I mean, if you’re going to be serious here, then at least have the decency to give me the right of reply.
Woof — back up your serious allegations.
Why am I an anti-Semite? And why am I “obsessed with Jews”?