How Low will they Go? Pro-Israel Posters Accused of Being on Israeli Government Payroll

The smears and sick accusations against GIYUS (always the last resort of the desperate there), AIPAC, the Israel Foreign Ministry, etc. on that thread have been flying freely, presumably due to CIFwatch’s early success in shining a light on these reprehensible contributors and commentators.

The irony of Whitaker’s comment is illustrated beautifully by the recurrent appearance of the same group of Israel-bashers (even those occasionally “banned” like Count/Singtothebreeze/leonWells/Acton etc. etc. known to many as Dotty as he keeps popping up under his multiple monikers – possibly the sudden appearance of BtselemPaul is his latest).

Strange how posters like Dotty, berchmans, Namokel, Teacup, Moron, etc. seem to be immune from Guardian staffers providing “supplementary information” and claims that they are part of an “effort to organize and co-ordinate internet “talkback”” even though there they are, singing from the same hymn-book, week after week, like a rather well organized cabal.

And the same goes for the endless round robin of Guardian-paid Jewish Israel-bashing contributors – Freedman, Lerman, Silverstein, Freedman, Lerman, Silverstein, Freedman, Lerman, Silverstein – endlessly earning their 30 pieces of silver from the Guardian’s Israel bashing roundabout.

If that is not organized and co-ordinated Internet “talkback”, what is?

CIFDisgustsMe

I can remember when calling someone an “Anti-semite” was a big deal. In fact, I was mortified the first time someone described me as “anti-semitic” on CIF. Now I’m completely impervious to it and that does sadden me to some extent.

Maybe Tony Lerman can tell us which parts of his bio are ‘unsubstantiated’?

Brian Whitaker is an interesting case. Take as an example his intervention in response to the comment from SouthLondon01 (History used and abused):

BrianWhit 23 Jul 09, 5:02pm:
“the inexplicable fixation of CiF and the Guardian on Israel and Jews”

You have only to look at the contents page to see that Cif covers lots of other things besides. It’s clear, though that readers like to discuss Israel and related issues.

In fact, few readers seem more fixated on this than SouthLondon01. A look at his/her commenting history shows that he/she rarely talks about anything else.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/23/israel-palestine-history-nakba?plckFindCommentKey=CommentKey:6f8dfc65-ba6e-4a32-b5d7-e81b7bdf8729

Whitaker chose to attack SouthLondon by describing him as ‘fixated’ without pausing to consider his own ‘fixation’ with Arabs (see Whitaker’s personal website: http://www.al-bab.com/). Whitaker can be (to use a less loaded word) interested in Arabs/Arab society/Arab culture but those like SouthLondon are ‘fixated’ and to be mocked for their interest in Israelis/Israeli society/culture.

Whitaker’s lack of empathy, dislike and contempt for Israel and Israelis (those who support their country) is palpable – so strong is his distaste that it extends to any poster on CiF who may not share his views. He knows that such posters are not being paid by the Israeli government but he enjoys spreading the conspiracy. Malicious.

spectreovereurope

You are lamenting about your inclusion in the list of antisemite commenters.
Have you ever read your own posts? Or do you think that demonization of a country and its people (incidentally the Jewish one) is some kind of reasonable criticism? Do you really think that because other Jewish posters absolve you means that you are off the hook? Or are you on the opinion that Jews’ thoughts are controlled by the Elders and must have identical opinions?

Mita

Yotam also said

“spectreovereurope I noticed that the first couple of posts that supposedly prove your antisemitism feature myself as your beatific foil. I wonder if I would be able to ask them to remove those or atleast ad my diagreement with their claims in fine print.”

So I don’t think I’ve been inaccurate.

My definition of anti-semitism?

Hatred, discrimination, prejudice and persecution directed at Jews for being Jews.

A classic example of anti-semitism is the Kiecle pogrom.

CiFDisgustsMe-

I don’t recall commenting on Darfur, Sri Lanka or recent Gaza violence. I’ve made comments about the Balkans, Latin America, Russia, Iran, Italy and Iraq. Is there a check-list of articular issues that must be commented on before comment on Israel/Palestine is permitted?

spectreovereurope

You are ready defend each and every one of your comments listed against allegations of anti-semitism.

Let’s start with this one:

“Can anyone explain to me why holocaust denial is anti-semitic? Surely an anti-semite would endorse the holocaust rather than deny it?”

hakunamatata-

“Do you really think that because other Jewish posters absolve you means that you are off the hook? Or are you on the opinion that Jews’ thoughts are controlled by the Elders and must have identical opinions?”

Surely the point is that if some Jews are claiming anti-semitism and others disputing anti-semitism, there is a difference of OPINION. The allegations of anti-semitism attributed to various commenters are presented by this site as proven fact rather than OPINION. Are alternative JEWISH perceptions of anti-semitism (or it’s perceived abscence) irrelevant? It would appear to be THIS site that is suggesting Jews have identical opinions. Do YOU believe their “thoughts are controlled by the Elders”?

“Hirsh is implyng within the Livingstone Formulation that ALL allegations of anti-semitism MUST be valid and there is NEVER a false charge made to stifle criticism of Israel. ”

No. That is not what David Hirsh says either implicitly or explicitly. See the article here: http://www.z-word.com/on-zionism/antisemitism-and-anti-zionism/anti-zionism-and-antisemitism%253A-decoding-the-relationship.html

Spectre

More disingenuity from you. You really are a piece of work.

You attempt to defend your rubbishing of the Livingstone Formulation by recourse to …. the Livingstone Formulation!

You couldn’t make it up.

With every post you further justify your inclusion on the ‘name and shame’ commenters’ list.

Keep ‘em coming.

Louise-

Does Hirsh concede that SOME allegations of anti-semitism are diversionary to deflect criticism of Israel in his “Livingstone Formulation”?

I’ve just finished a night-shift but will be glad to provide further clarifications and respond to queries when I’ve had some sleep. Bye for now,

Regards

spectreovereurope

Louise,

“I think your rubbishing of the Livingstone Formulation makes you an antisemite.”

Maybe you should add it to the EUMC working definition?

Spectre:
I am not a member of this site, so it is ”your site” as much as it is mine.

It was you who brought Yotam into the discussion to act as proof for you but since he emphasized that he had not read most of the entries you have proved nothing.

An incident is unlikely to take place on CiF which is what we are discussing – do you consider that nobody has ever said anything antisemitic on CiF that you can point to?

Mita-

I agree-I’ve not proved anything by referencing Yotam. I simply pointed out that s/he did not agree with CiF Watch’s assessment of anti-semitism in my first two comments listed. He made no specific comment about MY other comments. Am I being sufficently accurate?

Did you find my definition and example of anti-semitism?

Definitely. definitely goodnight!

spectreovereurope, the stench of your hyprocisy is almost overpowering. Since when has someone like you cared a damn about “cheapening” antisemitism? Since when has someone like you been bothered one iota about the Jew-hatred churned out on CiF?. Another Guardianista has been here and said that hate-filled comment should remain so that the hatred may be challenged. He never challenged it. Have YOU ever challenged it spectre?

I have been a CiFwatcher for some time and I used to post there before I was banned and no reason given. Yet “regularly” (to quote ExiledLondoner), posters are allowed to post anti-Jewish filth there while wretches like you do nothing and posters who complain about them are premoderated or banned.

Are you in fact an antisemite? Is that why you’re sore at not being included on CifWatch’s list? Write to the blog and send them some of your posts you think are antisemitic and they might reconsider, who knows?

You can start with the one above, where you fall head first into the Livingstone manoeuvre.

And to use Yotam’s comment because he is a Jew and you think that lend carry more weight to your ridiculous argument shows the depths into which you sink. Why not choose someone else’s post, there must have been scores of others? Why choose a post from “a Jew?” You’re so ignorant that just don’t get it, do you?

Keep on posting. The more cr*p you write the more convinced I am that this site is sorely needed.

Well done guys, thank you for it.

spectreovereurope

If your answer has been deleted then please repost it.

Dear CifWatchers! Please allow him to explain why he doesn’t consider Holocaust deniers antisemites. Must be very inetersting…

hakunamatata-

Let CifWatch repost it. Goodnight.

CIFCritic,

“Another Guardianista has been here and said that hate-filled comment should remain so that the hatred may be challenged. He never challenged it.”

If that’s me you’re referring to, I’d like to make a few brief points.

1) I’m not a Guardianista – if you’d seen my posts on other subjects, you might have worked that out for yourself.

2) I do indeed believe “that hate-filled comment should remain so that the hatred may be challenged” – I belive that hatred thrives in the dark, and withers in the light.

3) I challenge racism, anti-semitism and other hate-speech on an almost daily basis – if you haven’t seen that, then that’s largely because my comment often gets deleted alongside the original post.

Either that, or you made your comment without bothering to check whether it had any basis in fact.

spectreovereurope

If you are really able to defend your assertion that Holocaust deniers can’t be antisemites then go ahead and do it. Certainly you are not thick enough to believe that this is a defensible opinion if you yourself are not a vicious antisemite.

“Where I would disagree with Hirsh is the inappropriate use of “rare”.”

So you’re able to provide lots of examples then, spectre …. the floor is yours……….

I can’t help chuckling at the irony. Once I was on a bus going along High Street Kensington where a small pro-Palestinian demonstration outside the gates to the Israeli embassy was just ending. A man was doling out cash to each demonstrator.

zamalek-

Strange….the Israeli embassy isn’t on Kensington High street.

You are further proving that you are simply a raging and shameless antisemite, spectre.

Tutu said: “People are scared in this country [the US], to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful – very powerful.”

That’s antisemitic

Tutu has compared Israelis to Nazis. That’s antisemitic.

And he has compared Israel to an apartheid State. That’s antisemitic.

And you give him as an example of someone who is being smeared for making LEGITIMATE criticisms of Israeli policy?

Is it just Jews you hate, spectre? Or have you got it in for other minorities too?

I can give similar examples for all the names you mention but I have no intention of wasting time on reptiles.

@exiled – your 7:20 a.m. is pretty central to what the debate here should be. That we are for various reason, slotted into certain racial/political camps. Where antisemitism comes into this is when pro Israel Jews are slotted into a specific groups, devoid of all context to anything they’ve actually written. For instance, object to Conor Foley being selective in wanting to close one specific blog when his criteria for doing so is easily applied to other blogs – stand accused of defending Harry’s Place which equals being a supporter liberal interventionism, etc, etc,. another one, being accused of being an apologist for all kinds of unkosher things. I even had the one commentator/ poster (BeatontheDonis) more than imply that I actually think Arabs are dirty and another contributor/poster came in with some nonsense about my position on Cast Lead – which was marvellous since non of this was based on anything I’d actually written, but on what he/they decided I thought…..Now why would that be.

As far as I’m personally concerned there are problems with cif’s moderation which need review, alas, IMO, cif’s attitude seems very much a case of: No explanation, no apologies. I simply do not feel this is good enough any longer.

WRT the eumc which it might be worth pointing out, as per my cif/cifwatch posts make clear, I’m not persuaded by it and I think my second post on here asked about some of the content in the bio’s – However, in regard to your own agreement with CifWatch that antisemitic posts in their bio’s does exist, I have left a post for you on the thread : exiles allegations – If you could answer, you might actually be of assistance in moving the debate forward. How about it ?

Yo @Spectre – still doing the night shift, if I imply it’s at a dodgy hotel maybe you could get exiled to wade in and get me for “defamation” – or you could just send me back one of your classic rejoinders.

“Strange….the Israeli embassy isn’t on Kensington High street.”

That just about sums up your obsessive vindictive hate-filled mind.

@spectreovereurope

“blue-Imply to your heart’s content-That’s what this site’s all about.”

Well, I’m no more responsible for this site than you are Spectre – just putting up opinions, asking questions….Just like you and exiled.

spectreovereurope

You are either amazingly stupid or considering others the same. You bring up an example of ignorance easily justifiable by king size idiocy and/or by Soviet brainwashing. If this story is true at all this is an exception. I repeat your assertion again:

“Can anyone explain to me why holocaust denial is anti-semitic? Surely an anti-semite would endorse the holocaust rather than deny it?”

You didn’t ask “Can anyone explain to me why holocaust denial is ALWAYS anti-semitic?” Your question implied that in according to your opinion denying the Holocaust is NOT antisemitic.

You failed miserably. Your place on this list is well deserved reading only this post of yours alone.

CIFCritic,

Most of your post is about CIF policy (particularly moderation policy), which is something I can’t answer for, and I don’t know under what circumstances posters have been pre-moderated or banned.

You might think I’m a Guardianista from what I’ve written here, but I’m not entirely sure why you would think that? I’m not here defending the Guardian.

To answer your questions about me – I have never been pre-moderated or banned, and have posted under the same username for about 5 years (Guardian Talk and CIF). I suspect one of the reasons I haven’t had many problems is because I normally challenge posts directly, without reference to any other issues – my posts are removed under the “referring to” policy, rather than on their own merits.

There are at least two of my challenges on live threads at the moment (Lerman and Beaumont), and no doubt many more in the archives.

One point – the closest I’ve been to banning, and my most furious exchanges with Georgina, have not been over the ME threads at all, but over the over moderation of staffer threads (Toynbee, Ashley ect).

Bothered

I’m sorry you do not feel comfortable either here or on CIF.

I’m sure you’ll find ‘the right one’ soon.

CIFCritic,

I think Georgina Henry is Georgina to most on CIF. I’ve had a number of exchanges with her, all on the subject of either moderation, or the ‘new’ CIF software, that I felt very strongly about.

To be honest, without knowing your CIF username(s), the circumstances of your banning, and the reasons given for it, I can’t shed any light on it. Banning happens on both sides – a number of those listed here are no longer posting, or at least not under the same names.

I can assure you that I don’t have any influence that I’ve noticed, and most of my complaints or suggestions fall on deaf ears.

Sometimes I think I have led a charmed life – certainly in the early days when I indulged in a fair amount of personal abuse – but I suspect that my history as a poster who engages in debate probably works in my favour.

In the latest Lerman thread, a self-confessed anti-Zionist commenter stated “[p]lease remember that the Israeli Foreign Office pays people to post here. This means that any pro-Israeli view is more than likely to be yet another instance of Israeli propaganda.”
—————————————————————————————–

Considering the funds that the Saudi’s have put into propaganda it isn’t surprising to see such a projection.
The numbers of paid foreign agitators on campus are well known throughout the west, professional “students”, many not even registered that are running student clubs.
The numbers of “chairs” that have been endowed and continue to try and give legitimacy to the Chomsky’s and Finkelstein’s.

How crass to think that $150,000 budget is able to fund all of the various people who are going on-line to speak out against the racism, anti-semitism, anti zionism that we face daily.

Man, we sure do work cheap eh.

Fortunately we have one very important thing going for us, the truth.
We are not shackled by a false narrative that cannot and does not stand up to scrutiny.

We are a small people, 12 Million in all world-wide, yet we remain the chicken bone stuck in the throats of these people.

To be brutally honest, watching them wheezing and choking does not cause me any dismay at all.

sorry Sergio but all the indicators point to the fact that he is Jewish.

We can talk about it until the cows come home or we can do something concrete instead. I suggest we start boycotting CiF as a group.

spectreovereurope

Holocaust denial is frequently, though not invariably, motivated by anti-semitism. It’s entirely possible to be sceptical about the Holocaust through sheer ignorance rather than anti-semitism (in much the same way that some people believe the moon landings never happened). I question the automaticity of assigning motive. I knew a Hungarian family that came to the UK in 1956. They were under the impression that information about extermination camps was merely Soviet propaganda.
————————————————————————————–

Utter bullshit.
The Arrow Cross was every bit as eager as the Nazis, and while the Hungarians were sent to the concentration camps later than most, 550,000 out of 825,000 were killed.

A Jewish community that was fully assimilated like in Hungary cannot be deported “quietly”.

Hi Jubi,

“So I agree you have had a charmed life, Exile.”

Less so in recent times – nowadays I tend to keep my temper in check (probably more so than your good self?). You’re more recent, but I suspect that Peter (Hungarian) would have an opinion of my charmed life back in the bad old days…..

However, nothing got me closer to a ban than asking Jackie Ashley about her dinner party guest list….

Peter,

“Dan Rickman is an alumnus of an ultra-orthodox Jewish school in London and Oxford University who currently works in the IT industry. He has an MA in Hebrew and Jewish studies from the University of London and is author of a number of articles in the Jewish Chronicle. He posts on CiF as leftwingorthodoxjew”

Hmm, seems like he might be Jewish then.

Sergio Bramsole,

“That troll is not Jewish at all.”

Can I file that with your accusation that I’m an anti-semite?

spectreovereurope

“All my comments at the time were short (through neccessity) and lacking in appropriate nuance”

You must be joking. So at the time when you wrote “I hate blonde girls” must be translated for present use: “I DON’T hate blonde girls”?

This defense is so stupid that it doesn’t require any further discussion.

Exile: The story about the guest list sounds as if it deserves to be heard if our hosts will bear with us?

Actually this particular thread is supposed to be about the spurious allegation that individuals who are keen to point out the false statements and trot out the regular guilt by association are on some kind of a payroll.

Lerman has to resort to such innuendo instead of replying to those that point out the holes in his agenda.

sergio bramsole

“Dan Rickman must be every Jew-hater’s favorite Jew. He is still a troll in my book.”

Such vitriol. Such an irrational attack on such a lovely, gentle guy. Why? I mean, deep down — what is the problem here?

Dan Rickman is about as reasonable a human being as you’re ever likely to meet.

1peter

You are correct. The accusation that pro-israeli posters are paid agents of some international Jewish conspiracy – Israeli government – Mossad etc so old like CIF itself. Until now the CIF moderators happily tolerated this kind shit, the change that now a staff member himself actively support it. Times are changing…

I never heard of CiF till this year, didn’t even know that there was such a thing as the Guardian either.
Its a rather sad state of affairs when it came to my attention that a regular British paper is hotbed of anti-semitism hiding behind the hollow moral indignation of anti-Zionism.
Imagine my surprise when I found it to be so.

The daily dose of false information, the innuendo, the “facts” that get trotted out based on a false narrative.
It boggles the mind.

Leon Wells you are so quick to judge people negatively for all your wonderfully kind words about some Jews. Give them a chance. It is a new site and needs time to settle down. Not everyone is as experienced as you are at running a site like this.

“Leon Wells attack on such a lovely, gentle guy”

If you defend him then I prove my case beyond any reasonable doubt.

sergio bramsole

“If you defend him then I prove my case beyond any reasonable doubt”

Sorry? I don’t get you. Would you care to explain? And as I said: deep down — what is the problem here, Sergio — why so much vitriol?

Mita

I did respond to your last post, but it has just disappeared without trace…

Leon Wells

“Mita

I did respond to your last post, but it has just disappeared without trace…”
Possibly they took your advice and started censoring posts. You should be proud.

Mita LeonWells/Okyprianou is the same person, and is obsessive, as in obsessed with Jews. Anything to do with Jews and the I/P gives him cover to feed his addiction.

It’s better to ignore him. We took bets as to how long it would take for him to appear. It was faster than we anticipated.

Dotty – crawl back under your stone, you slime bag

FormerCiFer
I think I need a shower now after that encounter with the forces of darkness.

Let’s try that again.

I mean, if you’re going to be serious here, then at least have the decency to give me the right of reply.

Woof — back up your serious allegations.

Why am I an anti-Semite? And why am I “obsessed with Jews”?

Ignore me?

Yes, that’s convenient.

All of this drama is hurting my head. All I want to know is if I venture into the hell hole that is CiF and write a pro-Israel post, can I expect a check from the Israeli Government? My car could use some repairs.

Afraid not, Jonathan, it’s one of those anti-semitic conspiracies we wish were true. What actually happens is, you write a pro Israel post on CIF and you get deleted. Then you will be attacked, then you’ll respond and your post will be deleted.
If you are targeted by LaRit, Dotty, Berchmans et al – you’ll be lucky not to have nearly all your posts deleted plus you’ll probably get pre-modded to boot.
If you’re ExiledLondonor or LaRit you can discuss CIFWatch, if you’re PhyllisStein, you can’t.
if you’re LaRit you can post libellous comment and yet, the one she libels get pre-moderted. But it gets better, if you’re LaRit you can claims regarding death threats that absolutely nobody knows anything about, even the police, but non of that bothers CIF. CIFWatch is the smear site, you see, CIF is just fab – so long as you’re LaRitournelle or Dotty or Berchmans and Co.

Berchmans might not be quiet as dumb as you think, Sergio. He has a charmed existance on CIF. Like a few more whom CIF more than seem to favor.

Woof

If you (or anyone else here) can’t substantiate your allegations that I am an anti-Semite and “obsessed with Jews” — I’ll assume that they are unfounded.

The ball is in your court.

Although the tenor of this discussion is shriller than I expected, popping in here reveals one interesting fact – the Guardian’s policy of banning people, with a pretty broad brush – after all, Dotty has been banned “count”less times (eh, Leon?) as well as some of his harshest critics – has moved the debate away from that site to here. CIFWatch has already shown by its creation that the Guardian’s biased obsession with Israel and Jews can be challenged successfully.

They are pretty ineffective anyway – Dotty resurfaces as Btselempaul, that tiresome 63-year-old alte-kakker from Australia is back as interested1, and no doubt there are others. But some seem to live a charmed life – berchman’s for example, hiding rabid anti-semitism under “humorous” protestations against calling anti-semites out – and never appearing till their comments are removed, so he can keep his virtual nose clean by requesting references to the anti-semitc comments that have akready been removed.

John Brown.

But some seem to live a charmed life – berchman’s for example, hiding rabid anti-semitism under “humorous” protestations against calling anti-semites out – and never appearing till their comments are removed, so he can keep his virtual nose clean by requesting references to the anti-semitc comments that have akready been removed.

I have noticed that too.

However, I also noticed various posters mentioning that the are keeping personal records of Berchmans and presumably to circumvent CI(F) protectionism.

I personally regret never keeping Halgeel44’s comments about ‘Doctors with Jewish sounding names cutting up womens vaginae for huge amounts of money’. No record of these blatantly antisemitic comments can be found on the Guardian site yet she is still posting there. Most commenters seem to regard her as a great entertainer though.

She has this thing about ‘white skins’.

Okay then, friends:

If no-one can substantiate the allegations of anti-Semitism and “obsession with Jews” leveled at CiF commenter, LeonWells — perhaps the directors of this blog would be good enough to remove his name from the ‘watch list’.

Thank you.

Me and Hirsh will just have to agree to differ about the use of “rare”.